Bosses can legally fire employees they see as an 'irresistible attraction'

[Mangrove]

The again, where exactly does it end for small business? What if you don't want to employ someone who's black because you're a racist piece of garbage?

On one hand, its their business and it may fail or succeed based in the small choices they make and the relationships they build or fail yo build.

On the other hand they're a racist piece of garbage.

This guys sounds like an asshole who needs to get his monkey brain in check and/or get laid.

Courts have ruled that small businesses can practice certain types of hiring discrimination if it suits their business model. Some large businesses can also practice hiring discrimination... Hooters, for example. Many small business owners practice racial preference in hiring... unless they tell someone, who's going to know? You're describing something that is more or less impossible to legislate.

My argument isn't whether the business owner is right, it's whether the court was right in upholding his right to fire an employee for the simple reason that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want to work with her anymore. In my opinion, a small business owner should not be legally forced to continue to work with an employee they don't want to work with, for any reason. For the court to rule otherwise would throw a huge wrench in the ability of small business owners to run their businesses, which is why the rules are different for them in the first place.

Mang's argument is that the burden should be upon the business owner to get therapy so that he can deal with his issue of being attracted to his assistant.

How far do you really want to take that, if it became a precedent? I don't think any of you guys are really thinking through the absurdity of the ramifications you're proposing. Sure, in this case, you're like "That guy is wrong! It's his problem and he should have to suck it up and deal with it!" but the burden that precedent could potentially place on small business owners or other smalltime employers is pretty heavy. Alty and Mang, as small business owners, I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you found yourself the employer of an assistant that for some reason made you really uncomfortable, but you could not legally let go. Going to work puts a knot in your stomach... you hate it. The stress of the situation is taking a toll on your marriage. You are powerless to do anything about it, and your emotional state and ability to do your job is slipping.

What do you do?

That's the situation a court ruling against him would have put thousands of small business owners like yourselves in.

I haz doppleganger? I didn't make an argument in this thread. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I was the one who obliquely made reference to therapy. Marriage counseling to be more exact instead of going to his pastor. His pastor i understand to the degree of "committing adultery in your mind" like jesus said but thats kind of a fucked up way of following through with jesus' advice on the matter (cut off your hand if it makes you sin. Better to be in heaven without your hand than burn in gehenna whole). Shes not his hand. If hes bored with his wife as middle aged men are wont to be he should take her out for dinner and a movie and bonk in the back of his new lamborghini

what troubles me is that she had been working there a decade with no sexual attraction. The firing just because is way past the expiration date.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I was the one who obliquely made reference to therapy. Marriage counseling to be more exact instead of going to his pastor. His pastor i understand to the degree of "committing adultery in your mind" like jesus said but thats kind of a fucked up way of following through with jesus' advice on the matter (cut off your hand if it makes you sin. Better to be in heaven without your hand than burn in gehenna whole). Shes not his hand. If hes bored with his wife as middle aged men are wont to be he should take her out for dinner and a movie and bonk in the back of his new lamborghini

what troubles me is that she had been working there a decade with no sexual attraction. The firing just because is way past the expiration date.

Still talking about "what he should do" and missing the point of what the court should rule.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The again, where exactly does it end for small business? What if you don't want to employ someone who's black because you're a racist piece of garbage?

On one hand, its their business and it may fail or succeed based in the small choices they make and the relationships they build or fail yo build.

On the other hand they're a racist piece of garbage.

This guys sounds like an asshole who needs to get his monkey brain in check and/or get laid.

Courts have ruled that small businesses can practice certain types of hiring discrimination if it suits their business model. Some large businesses can also practice hiring discrimination... Hooters, for example. Many small business owners practice racial preference in hiring... unless they tell someone, who's going to know? You're describing something that is more or less impossible to legislate.

My argument isn't whether the business owner is right, it's whether the court was right in upholding his right to fire an employee for the simple reason that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want to work with her anymore. In my opinion, a small business owner should not be legally forced to continue to work with an employee they don't want to work with, for any reason. For the court to rule otherwise would throw a huge wrench in the ability of small business owners to run their businesses, which is why the rules are different for them in the first place.

Mang's argument is that the burden should be upon the business owner to get therapy so that he can deal with his issue of being attracted to his assistant.

How far do you really want to take that, if it became a precedent? I don't think any of you guys are really thinking through the absurdity of the ramifications you're proposing. Sure, in this case, you're like "That guy is wrong! It's his problem and he should have to suck it up and deal with it!" but the burden that precedent could potentially place on small business owners or other smalltime employers is pretty heavy. Alty and Mang, as small business owners, I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you found yourself the employer of an assistant that for some reason made you really uncomfortable, but you could not legally let go. Going to work puts a knot in your stomach... you hate it. The stress of the situation is taking a toll on your marriage. You are powerless to do anything about it, and your emotional state and ability to do your job is slipping.

What do you do?

That's the situation a court ruling against him would have put thousands of small business owners like yourselves in.

I haz doppleganger? I didn't make an argument in this thread. 

Sorry Mang! I conflated you with Burns.

[Pergamos]

The again, where exactly does it end for small business? What if you don't want to employ someone who's black because you're a racist piece of garbage?

On one hand, its their business and it may fail or succeed based in the small choices they make and the relationships they build or fail yo build.

On the other hand they're a racist piece of garbage.

This guys sounds like an asshole who needs to get his monkey brain in check and/or get laid.

If your business only has 5 or 10 employees and they are all white, that's not going to trip any discrimination detection algorithms unless you live in an area with a disproportionate amount of black people.  You can't say you didn't hire any of the qualified non white applicants because they weren't white, but that doesn't mean anyone can catch you or that any of those non hired applicants have grounds for a suit as long as those hired were of equivalent qualification.  You can say you didn't hire them because you wouldn't feel comfortable working with them, and the fact that is because they are black is irrelevent.

The, perhaps awful, part is that if you are a racist running a small business you shouldn't hire blacks.  Even if you are a benevolent racist who wants to do the right thing but is genuinely uncomfortable around blacks you shouldn't.  You'll hurt your own productivity and they'll notice pretty quickly which will cause a hostile work environment.  And if you ever admit your discomfort you will never be able to fire them, even if they do bad work, without facing a justified discrimination lawsuit. 

The good thing about small businesses is that they are much easier to influence.  That dentist has a small number of clients, if all the friends of that woman and her husband stop patronizing him, that is a significant chunk of his business.  On the other hand if she worked for a corporate consortium of some sort and was fired for this (which would then be illegal, I believe) her friends and family would represent no financial threat.  A dentist who never hires black people is less likely to get black clients, how much that matters depends on the community the racist dentist is in, but the less it matters for him financially the less of a problem it is anyway, because there are less black people being unfairly denied a job.

[Mangrove]

Sorry Mang! I conflated you with Burns.

Aha! Burns is my double. He can work on my client this morning and I can go home 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

What protects the small business worker from being terminated for no fault of their own?

Its not just be saying what this guy should do. Its also that this womans job was not protected somehow. After a decade of good work.

[Bu🤠ns]

What protects the small business worker from being terminated for no fault of their own?

Its not just be saying what this guy should do. Its also that this womans job was not protected somehow. After a decade of good work.

This is what gets in my craw too and I suspect there's really no good solution to this based on what Nigel has pointed out.

Sorry Mang! I conflated you with Burns.

Aha! Burns is my double. He can work on my client this morning and I can go home 

ON IT. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Luckily enough for her fort dodge has a population of 25000ish so she may well be able to get another job in her field. But im also thinking that what if she couldnt get another job because her town was too small? What if it was like 1000 people and one dentist?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What protects the small business worker from being terminated for no fault of their own?

Its not just be saying what this guy should do. Its also that this womans job was not protected somehow. After a decade of good work.

NOTHING. Nothing protects small business employees. Nothing, likewise, protects small business owners. There is NO job security in a small business, whether it's the owner or the employees. I feel like you aren't understanding that when you operate a business that small, the business IS YOU. YOU ARE THE BUSINESS.

If that dentist broke his arm, he'd be out of work until he got better, and so would his employee. Twisted his ankle... same. Woman dentist gets pregnant and wants to take a maternity leave... employees are SOL until she gets back. If Alty hurts his back and can't work, he can't work. If I got in a car wreck and couldn't make beads, that would just be it for me; too bad, what a loss. Short-term disability insurance, if I had it (most people don't) would cover part of my wages, but none of my employees. There is no buffer for a business that small, which is why dentists and other professionals whose business revolves entirely on their personal ability to provide a service so often share a practice and its employees, so that if something happens to one of them the business can still continue. If you want to change that, you'll have to either institute some socialized buffers (and if there were socialized buffers, it would be reasonable to require small business owners to adhere to certain socially friendly policies in order to participate in them, win/win) or outlaw small businesses.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

No- i get it. A band is also a small business. I understand all that. If i break my arm the band doesnt play for 6 weeks. If pete breaks his arm the band doesnt play for 6 weeks. That all makes sense. Being sexually attracted to a bandmate and having them find out by me telling them i want them out of the band doesnt. If anything i just suck up my feelings or address the problem and try and work through it. Or go on tour- as im sure that would kill any attraction. Bands dont really go through lawsuits though unless theyre signed.

[Salty]

I think I got this now.

Small business is just to fragile to be held by the same standards. It doesn't have large amounts of unending capital to draw from, there are no bailouts, and nobody gives a shit if you succeed or fail in the long run, with the exception of the relationships you build yourself. It doesn't really matter if this dentist is a piece of shit or not because any protection enabled to allow a business operate smoothly is more important.

I have an issue where I don't want to deal with a contractor I'm working with, and I feel I should suck it up and it'll be good for me. But it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I don't dread going to work. And if I did I would want to end it, or anything else, immediately because I am not able to switch off. I don't clock out, mentally, though it's a skill I'm developing.

As for bands, most people don't depend on them wholly for all income with little-to-no contingencies in place. If that were the scenario I'd imagine things would be different. I'm still unconvinced that this guy is anything but an asshole, but who said being an asshole should be illegal?

[Pergamos]

No- i get it. A band is also a small business. I understand all that. If i break my arm the band doesnt play for 6 weeks. If pete breaks his arm the band doesnt play for 6 weeks. That all makes sense. Being sexually attracted to a bandmate and having them find out by me telling them i want them out of the band doesnt. If anything i just suck up my feelings or address the problem and try and work through it. Or go on tour- as im sure that would kill any attraction. Bands dont really go through lawsuits though unless theyre signed.

I'm pretty sure Fleetwood Mac broke up over sexual attraction.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Was it at least addressed as a problem before the break up? Were there any lawsuits involved? If so what was the outcome? I ask because i actually dont know.

[Pergamos]

I have a friend who does web page design.  One of her clients is a barber shop/hair salon.  My friend is white, but she's also a contractor for them, she doesn't work in the business itself, she just makes their page and keeps it maintained.  Every employee in the place is black.

Is that racist?   Perhaps, but the place caters to an exclusively black clientele, black people have different hair than white people and even if there are white hair stylists who specialize in black hair having white people working in the place would lose them business and interfere with their business environment.


As far as Fleetwood Mac yes, it was addressed, that's where the album Rumors came from, them trying to work it out.  I don't know about lawsuits, I know they had a joint ownership model, not a sole proprietership, which makes things work rather differently.