The Trans Discussion

[Faust]

To be fair, she was an Olympic medalist before any of that jive. She used to be Bruce Jenner, famous in my youth for the cover of the Wheaties box.

Hoopla beat me to it.

But still, she was famous before Kanye West was even BORN, and I still haven't figured out WTF a Kardashian is.

*Clears throat, bet no ones made this joke before* They are the bad guys from Deep Space 9.

[Faust]

It occurs to me to put it like this: Caitlyn Jenner can not be a woman in a man's body, because she is a woman and therefore her body must be a woman's body--medically altered or otherwise.

Yes.

I just realized that this Caitlyn is a MtF trans, that completely changes the meaning of that sentence.
I guess this is a famous person I would know about if I followed the news?

Famous is stretching it, she is from that dumb reality show that asshole Kanye Wests wife is in.

Um

http://biography.yourdictionary.com/bruce-jenner

One of the most famous athletes of the 1970s, Bruce Jenner (born 1949) won the gold medal in the decathlon in the 1976 Olympic Games.

The vanity fair announcement cover annoyed my fiance, because of the sexualised glamor spread on it as if to say "this is what it is to be a woman", it cant be a strong or professional look because those things aren't womanly.

Ah, fair enough, I barely know the olympian athletes in Ireland for the last two years but he sounds like he deserves a lot more respect then he gets and it's a shame he is associated with that awful family.

Yeah, that after image could well have started with just about any other image with the amount of photoshopping put into it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

To be fair, she was an Olympic medalist before any of that jive. She used to be Bruce Jenner, famous in my youth for the cover of the Wheaties box.

Hoopla beat me to it.

But still, she was famous before Kanye West was even BORN, and I still haven't figured out WTF a Kardashian is.

*Clears throat, bet no ones made this joke before* They are the bad guys from Deep Space 9.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I think you are trivializing the power of cultural context on human experience, in addition to just generally being kind of needlessly insulting.

The cultural context is powerful, I agree, and of course it plays a strong role in most everything we do. What I mean by "merely a description of a person's experience" is how we generally afford people generous poetic license in how they talk about their life.

I know this is a very touchy subject and I don't intend to insult but I believe you're wrong here.

If I recall correctly, you have lumped trans people's struggle in with those who claim they are non-human animals or mythical beings born in the wrong body and ridiculed the lot as examples of Cartesian dualism. In the latter cases, Cartesian dualism is a legitimate critique. But applying it in terms of trans people seems profoundly insulting, especially when you agree that sex and gender occur along independent spectrums.

Perhaps I'm misremembering previous posts. I otherwise agree with what you're saying. I especially appreciate your comment about social pressure requiring sexual reassignment surgery before we respect the gender people present themselves as—that's an excellent point.

Yes. You are misremembering previous posts. I have said that I don't believe that anyone is literally "born into the wrong body", and I may indeed have made a comparison to thinking that one is "really" something else entirely, but it sounds like you read a whole  lot into that.

Perhaps I just read into it too much. I think we're really in agreement, and I was being a bit oversensitive. My apologies.

Just to clarify, I don't believe being transgendered is a pathology and is just an uncommon set of coordinates on the sex and gender spectrums.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I think you are trivializing the power of cultural context on human experience, in addition to just generally being kind of needlessly insulting.

The cultural context is powerful, I agree, and of course it plays a strong role in most everything we do. What I mean by "merely a description of a person's experience" is how we generally afford people generous poetic license in how they talk about their life.

I know this is a very touchy subject and I don't intend to insult but I believe you're wrong here.

If I recall correctly, you have lumped trans people's struggle in with those who claim they are non-human animals or mythical beings born in the wrong body and ridiculed the lot as examples of Cartesian dualism. In the latter cases, Cartesian dualism is a legitimate critique. But applying it in terms of trans people seems profoundly insulting, especially when you agree that sex and gender occur along independent spectrums.

Perhaps I'm misremembering previous posts. I otherwise agree with what you're saying. I especially appreciate your comment about social pressure requiring sexual reassignment surgery before we respect the gender people present themselves as—that's an excellent point.

Yes. You are misremembering previous posts. I have said that I don't believe that anyone is literally "born into the wrong body", and I may indeed have made a comparison to thinking that one is "really" something else entirely, but it sounds like you read a whole  lot into that.

Perhaps I just read into it too much. I think we're really in agreement, and I was being a bit oversensitive. My apologies.

Just to clarify, I don't believe being transgendered is a pathology and is just an uncommon set of coordinates on the sex and gender spectrums.

Apology accepted, and thank you.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

I like that my children are less shitty on this subject than you.

[Reginald Ret]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

You are almost there.
They may be using silly concepts to define themselves with, but so are you.
All humans identify with stupid shit, it is just how people work. We are lean, mean, self-identifying machines.

Hell, I know quite a lot of people who identify as sportsfans! And not just sports in general, but they pick one very specific set of sports(in this case ballgames), then within that set they pick one particular sport (soccer), and within that sport they pick one particular league, and within that league they pick one particular team! They somehow manage to sum up all this nonsense in a two word description of themselves. Oh also, they use this as an excuse to fight people who choose the same set of sports, the same sport, the same league, but a different team! Because those people are badwrong and need to be beat-up.

Compared to that clusterfuck: Identifying yourself based on either gender, sex, or a specific combination of the two doesn't seem that strange. It's downright sensible really, when seen in the right context.

P.S. I have heard rumors that some people even choose a particular player within a team to identify with, but I have a hard time believing that.

[Pæs]

HAHAHAHA EVERYBODY'S LIVED EXPERIENCE IS UNDERSTOOD AND DEFINED VIA CONCEPTS AND WORDS AND SOUNDS THEY MAKE WITH THEIR FACES THAT DON'T, REMOVED FROM THEIR SOCIAL CONTEXT, ACTUALLY MEAN ANYTHING.

IT'S ALL JUST WORDS, YOU DELUDED FOOLS. HAHAHAHA.

[Reginald Ret]

HAHAHAHA EVERYBODY'S LIVED EXPERIENCE IS UNDERSTOOD AND DEFINED VIA CONCEPTS AND WORDS AND SOUNDS THEY MAKE WITH THEIR FACES THAT DON'T, REMOVED FROM THEIR SOCIAL CONTEXT, ACTUALLY MEAN ANYTHING.

IT'S ALL JUST WORDS, YOU DELUDED FOOLS. HAHAHAHA.

Hey, sometimes the only way out of a hole is to keep digging until you hit sillyness. The sillyness explodes and launches you back to the surface.
Commonly known as appeal to absurdity when done to another, I'm not sure what it is called when I do it to myself.

[Pæs]

HAHAHAHA EVERYBODY'S LIVED EXPERIENCE IS UNDERSTOOD AND DEFINED VIA CONCEPTS AND WORDS AND SOUNDS THEY MAKE WITH THEIR FACES THAT DON'T, REMOVED FROM THEIR SOCIAL CONTEXT, ACTUALLY MEAN ANYTHING.

IT'S ALL JUST WORDS, YOU DELUDED FOOLS. HAHAHAHA.

Hey, sometimes the only way out of a hole is to keep digging until you hit sillyness. The sillyness explodes and launches you back to the surface.
Commonly known as appeal to absurdity when done to another, I'm not sure what it is called when I do it to myself.

The ridicule there was directed at PDS, rather than at your post 

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

You are almost there.
They may be using silly concepts to define themselves with, but so are you.
All humans identify with stupid shit, it is just how people work. We are lean, mean, self-identifying machines.

Hell, I know quite a lot of people who identify as sportsfans! And not just sports in general, but they pick one very specific set of sports(in this case ballgames), then within that set they pick one particular sport (soccer), and within that sport they pick one particular league, and within that league they pick one particular team! They somehow manage to sum up all this nonsense in a two word description of themselves. Oh also, they use this as an excuse to fight people who choose the same set of sports, the same sport, the same league, but a different team! Because those people are badwrong and need to be beat-up.

Compared to that clusterfuck: Identifying yourself based on either gender, sex, or a specific combination of the two doesn't seem that strange. It's downright sensible really, when seen in the right context.

P.S. I have heard rumors that some people even choose a particular player within a team to identify with, but I have a hard time believing that.

Exactly! Omnia vanitas.

[President Television]

Exactly! Omnia vanitas.

Christ, what an asshole. I came into this discussion feeling vaguely uncomfortable because I held a philosophical position somewhat similar to yours and at the same time didn't see any need to belittle or harass trans people, and wasn't sure if that made me a bigot. Now I don't even care, I'm rejecting it. You've made it look that unappealing and pretentious.

[Doktor Howl]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

It's fortunate that your approval is not required.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As before I still think it's a bunch of BS. That said, I nonetheless believe that these folks should be allowed to live their lives the way they want to free of bullying  institutionalized harassment. It's everyone's right to pull the wool  over their own eyes and relax in their own delusions. It's ok, but it just doesn't make them stop being delusions is all I'm saying

Okay, I see no reason to continue reading your drivel.

Not because you're kind of a bigot, which you are, but because you are doing the intellectual equivalent of fingers in your ears saying LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU YOU'RE WRONG every time someone attempts to explain the difference between gender expression and biological sex, and why social constructs are meaningful and real.