HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?

[E.O.T.]

That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.

THAT'S FUNNY

          i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!

IT'S LIKE

          we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!

I'VE

          been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.

HOWEVER,

          it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.

AT THE TIME,

          i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.

I DON'T

          necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job

[E.O.T.]

HA HA

          then there's this view, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

QUOTE(S)

          The EU should "do its best to undermine" the "homogeneity" of its member states, the UN's special representative for migration has said.

          Mr Sutherland, who is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs International and a former chairman of oil giant BP, heads the Global Forum on Migration and Development, which brings together representatives of 160 nations to share policy ideas.

He told the House of Lords committee migration was a "crucial dynamic for economic growth" in some EU nations "however difficult it may be to explain this to the citizens of those states".

SOME PEOPLE

          think everything is about making money

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.

THAT'S FUNNY

          i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!

IT'S LIKE

          we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!

I'VE

          been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.

HOWEVER,

          it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.

AT THE TIME,

          i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.

I DON'T

          necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job

I know a few people who go there every chance they get, and they don't hear a lot of fucked-up comments. They say the main thing people do there is try to overcharge you for things, assuming you don't know what they're supposed to cost. Or you might wait for a cab longer than a native would, things like that.

Of course they could be running in different circles or visiting different areas.

It still beats Texas. 

[E.O.T.]

That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.

THAT'S FUNNY

          i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!

IT'S LIKE

          we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!

I'VE

          been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.

HOWEVER,

          it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.

AT THE TIME,

          i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.

I DON'T

          necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job

I know a few people who go there every chance they get, and they don't hear a lot of fucked-up comments. They say the main thing people do there is try to overcharge you for things, assuming you don't know what they're supposed to cost. Or you might wait for a cab longer than a native would, things like that.

Of course they could be running in different circles or visiting different areas.

It still beats Texas. 

I THOUGHT

           nothing could beat texas?!

[Triple Zero]

So are you talking about Amsterdam, or the whole of NL?

The Herengracht is a big street in Amsterdam (next to a canal, obviously).

Overcharging for things seems most likely to occur in tourist heavy areas like Amsterdam. Also general friendliness is different in different parts of the country: One time I overheard two Dutch girls (that were obviously not from around) walking in front of me, where to go, or what bus to take or something. I knew, so I told them. They told me they were from The Hague (IIRC) and were quite surprised at the random friendliness that would never happen were they lived (or so they said). A similar thing actually happened to us when we just arrived in NYC, we needed to get to Grand Central and take a train or something and out of the blue two middle-aged ladies helped us by pointing out where the entrance was and where to buy the tickets and such. They were from a different state. I don't think a (typical) New Yorker would have done that.

But Amsterdam is really weird. I'm Dutch and even I feel like I'm being treated as a tourist there, simply for not radiating that I know exactly where I am, where I'm going and where to have the best time. I don't like Amsterdam much.

As for disdain of our neighbouring countries, for starters, Denmark doesn't neighbour us Nor do I really understand why Dutch would dislike the Danish. Okay they kind of freak me out after staying in their country for a week or so (with their cute garden gnome type knobbly noses), but on the whole we really don't deal with them a lot, so I wonder why or how they even came up in conversation?

As for Germany, they invaded our country and took our bikes. And also defeated us in soccer a couple of times. Can you remember how long ago this was? Because I really have the idea that the (completley unfounded) negative opinions about Germany lessened quite a lot in the past decade or so. Or perhaps I just grew up and hung around with more tolerant people. But I also think the EU played a role. It's kinda nice being able to pay with the same currency. NL is not that big and you're over the border in no time. And they don't really hardly ever check your passport anymore. You can even just apply for a job in Germany and work from NL, or move there, or whatever, without any special permit. Apart from speaking a different language, having no speed limit on the Autobahn, having nicer roadside restaurant and a slightly different landscape due to different drainage technology, it's like that border hardly even exists.


Crashing with uber left anarcho punk types--squatters I'm assuming?--especially in Amsterdam, is most definitely going to get you a rather isolated and unique view of the Netherlands, though. Not that it matters much, I'm absolutely certain it would be a blast

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.

I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. 

EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.

I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. 

EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.

I was gonna argue small town AZ, but you're 169% right.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.

I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. 

EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.

I was gonna argue small town AZ, but you're 169% right.

Yeah. Still boggled as to how Texas managed to pull THAT off.

[Bruno]

In any place that attracts tourists, the locals are going to hate any non-native, even if they are just passing through to some more interesting place.

The example I'm most familiar with is Gatlinburg, TN. If they don't know you, they hate you by default.

[E.O.T.]

I'M OK

          with being treated like a "Yank" when there, no one had ever called me that before, it was funny. I was of course, derailed in my mind because in the states, being a "Yankee" more specifically means one is not from the southern states. so i was wondering how this guy pegged my dialect. which wasn't the case, he just meant american in general. being from wisconsin, it's a meaningless term to me, kinda like honky. still waiting for someone to throw that at me some day, so my life may be complete.

ONE R

          in herengracht, gotcha. yes, staying there was awesome, incredible view of the streets and the anarchos had set up an internet cafe on the main floor.

HEY,

          being a skip across the pond is association enough (re: denmark), we made fun of the michiganites and they were way across the biggest lake ever. i fully understand the german thing, of course, that seemed universal in travelling around.

I, FOR ONE

          want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.

ALL THAT SAID,

          i was a total nerd for islamic studies in school, specifically sufi thinkers like ibn sina or especially al ghazali, and i have to assume the dutch were clueless somehow, in thinking that in-faith muslims would be anything but totally themselves, residing there, or anywhere. it's a pickle, for sure

REGARDLESS

          of the op, being essentially a dead topic, thanks for everyone's input. it's perhaps not a direct correlative to the immigration/ illegal entry issues in the us, but nonetheless socially imperative as a concern. i dislike the media's obsession with fanning the flames in regards to making it all about racism and hate. i think that's relevant, but dumbing it down to a point where the real complex issues of immigration and economics get tossed out the window because they don't fit on hot topic of the day is upsetting.

FOR EXAMPLE,

          i'm pretty convinced that the staff of the oregonian and willamette weekly would like nothing more than weekly race riots, of every flavour, just for the sales, they do everything they can to insist on dividing and misrepresenting the reality of portland social relations.

I DO NOT

          relish the individuals who's job it is to get knee deep in the burqua debate. individuals in politics are are largely mentally deranged imo, so they're probably the least qualified to decide for the greater good. people walking around in masks is more than a little weird, but if one is to respect another's personal beliefs, it's kinda all or nothing.

[East Coast Hustle]

Beliefs are just things you make up to explain what you don't know when you're too lazy to find out the truth, and I for one don't respect ANYBODY'S personal beliefs.

[E.O.T.]

Beliefs are just things you make up to explain what you don't know when you're too lazy to find out the truth, and I for one don't respect ANYBODY'S personal beliefs.

WELL

          then...

[Triple Zero]

Next time a Dutch calls you Yankee, inform them that it was in fact the Dutch (immigrants) that were called that name first, derived from the Dutch first name "Jan Kees" [pronounce it "Yun Case" or they may wonder wtf].

I, for one want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.

Yeah I can imagine how that must seem endearingly romantic and idyllic, if you don't actually live there and Euros, Deutschmarks and Guldens are all the same to you anyway: foreign moneys that you convert back to dollars in your head, anyway.

Now imagine that every US state uses a different currency. And that, unlike those big rectangular slabs on your West coast, they vary in size a lot more and there's quite a few more small ones close by, even more so than the New England area. Imagine that your home state is real tiny, like the Netherlands. And they all have different currency and they all take chunks of commission whenever you exchange currency, and you have this huge jar back at home you keep with various valuta coins whenever you get back, some of which are nearly worthless but you forgot which ones and for some reason you always forget to take the proper ones with you when you go anywhere, valuta exchange offices generally only take paper money, so you end up just donating them all to some charity or other.

Now imagine you cannot cross any state line without showing your passport (real, official passport, not some ID card or a driver's license)  to some really strict fellow that does not speak your language and wears an army uniform that doesn't look at all like the friendly army uniforms you're familiar with back at home. BTW he's shouting something at you and you have no idea what he wants. Not to mention, naturally you cannot apply for a job in a different state without going through a huge amount of paperwork.

...

[E.O.T.]

Next time a Dutch calls you Yankee, inform them that it was in fact the Dutch (immigrants) that were called that name first, derived from the Dutch first name "Jan Kees" [pronounce it "Yun Case" or they may wonder wtf].

I, for one want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.

Yeah I can imagine how that must seem endearingly romantic and idyllic, if you don't actually live there and Euros, Deutschmarks and Guldens are all the same to you anyway: foreign moneys that you convert back to dollars in your head, anyway.

Now imagine that every US state uses a different currency. And that, unlike those big rectangular slabs on your West coast, they vary in size a lot more and there's quite a few more small ones close by, even more so than the New England area. Imagine that your home state is real tiny, like the Netherlands. And they all have different currency and they all take chunks of commission whenever you exchange currency, and you have this huge jar back at home you keep with various valuta coins whenever you get back, some of which are nearly worthless but you forgot which ones and for some reason you always forget to take the proper ones with you when you go anywhere, valuta exchange offices generally only take paper money, so you end up just donating them all to some charity or other.

Now imagine you cannot cross any state line without showing your passport (real, official passport, not some ID card or a driver's license)  to some really strict fellow that does not speak your language and wears an army uniform that doesn't look at all like the friendly army uniforms you're familiar with back at home. BTW he's shouting something at you and you have no idea what he wants. Not to mention, naturally you cannot apply for a job in a different state without going through a huge amount of paperwork.

...

HAHA

          i absolutely hear what you're saying. but romanticallism has nothing to do with practicality. going to the next state over looking for a job, here in the u.s. would be as practical as you driving to eastern europe to look for work! here in portland, if i can't walk there, i'm not interested!! being made fun of by locals cuz i'm too drunk to know what coins i'm supposed to use is part of the fun of traveling.

I WILL NEVER FORGET

          my first drive into holland, coming from germany. we dialed into radio to get into the groove and dutch airwaves hit me with one of my favourite Skriabin pieces followed by a half hour of indian composition. i was floored. and wasted. cuz we could drink in the car! yeah!!

[hirley0]

20120702 Navy 3:48:33 AM 3&1/3 min online delay