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Badgers, Politics and Science.

Started by Demolition Squid, October 24, 2013, 11:40:37 PM

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Demolition Squid

So this is a situation I doubt many of you guys (excluding those in the UK) will have heard much about.

For years, farmers have been petitioning to conduct a cull of the badger population under the belief that it will curb cases of bovine TB. Bovine TB numbers have been rising year on year, and on a radio programme recently, a member of the National Farmers Union was saying that if something isn't done, by 2020 we could have caused irrepairable damage to our cattle.

Animal protection groups have responded with various claims over the years. First they started with 'there is no link between badgers and bovine TB'. That has recently been replaced with claims that a cull could worsen the problem by causing badgers to flood into uninfected areas, or that it'll cost too much to sort out.

The reason they've changed tack is because in Ireland and Germany, a cull was conducted, and their bovine TB problem has been brought under control.

What irritated me about the radio programme was that the scientist they had on said he couldn't support a badger cull because - in the sciences - they work so very hard to keep down the number of lab animals killed in testing and this seemed to be a large double standard.

He didn't deny it was an issue. He didn't deny that the badger cull would sort out the problem (as it seems to have done so in other countries). He was purely interested in the double standard. Others have been desperate to link the calls for a cull to fox hunting - which is a whole other issue, and would not be carried out in a ruthlessly methodical fashion even if it were still legal. Because fox hunting is a sport, and an organized cull is most definitely not.

I live in a fairly rural area, so I admit this kind of conflation is close to my heart. Throughout the programme, the scientist kept continually implying that the farmer wouldn't want to discuss 'complicated science issues', despite the fact the farmer was going 'actually, we use a hell of a lot of tech on the farm, and in maintaining our equipment. I really love science. You can't be a modern farmer without knowing about this stuff too'.

But the necessity for a cull has become an entirely political issue, and the government have tried to appease both sides by limiting the cull to a trial in such a way that it won't have an appreciable effect. They are afraid of being seen as the heartless monsters who shot a million badgers, because the media will rip into them on the grounds that a primarily Conservative government are all fox-hating toffs, and the farmers get written off as animal haters. Which is such a baffling misconception when I compare it to the farmers I actually know I don't even know where to begin.

In the end, the evidence gets ignored, badgers continue to propagate at an unhealthy rate (spreading the TB further into the population as they go), and we continue to lose 40,000+ cattle per year. A number which will increase rapidly, and could stop almost completely if a simple plan were put into action in the past few months. And so it goes.
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hooplala

Well, when we're all standing around in the smoking husk of the world, he can have the satisfaction of knowing he showed them.
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The Good Reverend Roger

As I have said, false beliefs are dangerous, and politics is fatal.

In this case, the false beliefs are that the badgers have nothing to do with it, and that people's politics trump reality.

The politics, of course, is trying to keep everyone happy.  That's a killer, right there.

And that man isn't a scientist, he's a preacher.

The farmer sounds like he might be a scientist, though.
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Demolition Squid

Its a stupid situation.

Fox hunting turned out similar. Farmers explained that - ethical issues or no - if they didn't have a fox hunt in their area, the foxes would encroach on their farms, and kill their animals. So, if they were prohibited from having a fox hunt, they would take out a lamp, and shoot every fox that they could, because they need to protect their farm.

They were largely drowned out by idiots on the 'pro fox hunting' side, and ignored by the 'anti fox hunting' side because the idiots were louder.

Now, foxes aren't much of an issue in rural farming communities, because they are mostly dead. The foxes have instead been driven into the cities, where trash is plentiful, some people even feed them, and others leave their windows open for their babies to be attacked.

Everyone seems very surprised that this phenomena has come to pass. I think it is because we don't have much seriously dangerous wildlife left over here, so the average English person's view of the countryside is The Wind in the Willows or similar stories, and they expect the foxes to be lovable wise-cracking rogues and badgers to be stubborn old curmudgeons.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Pope Pixie Pickle

I'm not entirely sure about the culling vs vaccination argument. (is it really more cost effective and effective long term to vaccinate the coo beasties vs shooting badgers)

I do know there have been a lot of militant animal rights folks sabotaging the badger cull so I'd like to see more of a cost/benefit analysis of the 2 methods accounting for pesky militant vegans on Team Badger.


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Pixie on October 25, 2013, 02:11:28 AM
I'm not entirely sure about the culling vs vaccination argument. (is it really more cost effective and effective long term to vaccinate the coo beasties vs shooting badgers)

I do know there have been a lot of militant animal rights folks sabotaging the badger cull so I'd like to see more of a cost/benefit analysis of the 2 methods accounting for pesky militant vegans on Team Badger.

Feed vegans to badgers, sing a little song, do a little dance, everyone goes home happy.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Demolition Squid

It is illegal to vaccinate against bovine TB due to existing EU legislation https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/183229/bovinetb-letter-paterson.pdf

The short answer as to why is because the means to ensure that we don't accidentally end up eating TB infected meat rather than vaccinated cows doesn't exist yet. It will, hopefully in the next ten years... but if we wait ten years, we'll have destroyed an awful lot of cows and the infection will have spread even further into the wildlife population.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Junkenstein

This kind of thing does seem to come up with some regularity in the UK. By "this kind of thing" I mean an issue that has fairly clear pro's/con's turns into a countryside Vs Urbanite issue. Those in the cities view farmers as wurzel gummidge-esque figures with combine 'arvestors and cider. Farmers are portrayed as thinking city dwellers ignorant of how Tesco gets it's steaks. Fox hunting, foot and mouth, there's something every year to help the system remind you of the differences between your life and theirs.

A cull of anything is not a pleasant prospect. I doubt many farmers are particularly happy about the situation but their views will be inevitably drowned out by the noise of the cities.

As DS noted, politicians will use this as a point scoring exercise either way resulting in no actual fix but creating a big fucking problem for the next (or subsequent) government.

Somewhat rambling, but I'm trying to get at shit like this seems to be part of the system. Keep a divide between rural/city, don't let them talk reasonably to each other about issues that impact them both. After all, they're not your voter base so fuck them.
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Kai

What is the ultimate goal here? Depression of badger populations, or elimination of badgers? If the former, I can get behind it, though if you really want to get rid of the problem vaccination is a much better method. If the latter, it seems no different than the attitude towards wolves in USA.
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Demolition Squid

Depression. Nobody wants to wipe out all badgers, AFAIK. They want to reduce the badger population so that they can be kept comfortably within areas which do not put the cattle population at risk. In fact, the guy on the radio was saying they want to do this, and then move on to the vaccination programme when the technology is there to make it safe... at which point, nobody will care about culling badgers any more because immunizing the cattle population is more cost-effective in the long run.

I really wish I'd made a note of the names of these people, by the way. Referring to everyone as 'that guy on the radio' makes me grind my teeth, but I haven't been able to find it on the iPlayer again.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Fucking badgers. They're a menace to dwarf porn.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Reginald Ret

Ugh, similar arguments pop up here as well every so often. Though it is less common on account of us not having any wild countryside. (The Dutch way of increasing wildlife reserves: 1. pick a plot of land. 2. dig up the topsoil (2 feet is usually enough) 3. put in desired soil. 4. sow in desired flora and fauna. 5. bitch about unstable ecosystem.)
Just cull the species who are going through a population boom, it is not complicated. But noooo, the bleeding hearts want to feed the deer so they don't massively starve in the winter.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: :regret: on October 25, 2013, 06:23:41 PM
Ugh, similar arguments pop up here as well every so often. Though it is less common on account of us not having any wild countryside. (The Dutch way of increasing wildlife reserves: 1. pick a plot of land. 2. dig up the topsoil (2 feet is usually enough) 3. put in desired soil. 4. sow in desired flora and fauna. 5. bitch about unstable ecosystem.)
Just cull the species who are going through a population boom, it is not complicated. But noooo, the bleeding hearts want to feed the deer so they don't massively starve in the winter.

But deer are delicious.  :?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


LMNO

Don't let ECH hear you say that. Apparently for him, deer are the Tilapia of the woods.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 26, 2013, 02:07:27 AM
Don't let ECH hear you say that. Apparently for him, deer are the Tilapia of the woods.

:lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."