Really real discordians

[Cain]

Faggots are a delicious and traditional meal.

I thought they were cigarettes?

No, those are fags.  Totally different thing.

You can also throw faggots on a fire.  Not the same kind of faggots you eat though, obviously.

[Cramulus]

I was unfamiliar with this definition:

Fag
-verb
2. British . to require (a younger public-school pupil) to do menial chores.

-noun
10. British  Informal . a younger pupil in a British public school required to perform certain menial tasks for, and submit to the hazing of, an older pupil.

[Cain]

Oh yes, I should copy out some sections of Tom Brown's Schooldays.  If you read "fag" in its modern context, the novels take on a whole different cast...

[Jenne]

"glorious faggot"

oops

See, I don't put qualifiers on these things.  I have not restrained my speech from my kids at home--in fact, we only tell them when it's appropriate to use cuss words.  And for all the f-bomb as it's politely called is thrown around liberally around this house, my kids NEVER cuss in front of adults.  Ever. 

I think language is a plastic thing that moves and shapes and breathes, but it has controls that you must learn in order to communicate successfully and effectively.  I'm hardly EVER the prescriptivist...I don't dictate (often) how people should term things so they are "nicer" or "less annoying," but instead find it fascinating when they adhere or DON'T to the social normative values of language.

/I actually quite fucking LOVE linguistics

[Jenne]

Faggots are a delicious and traditional meal.

I thought they were cigarettes?

No, those are fags.  Totally different thing.

You can also throw faggots on a fire.  Not the same kind of faggots you eat though, obviously.

Can't you be also "quite fagged" as in tired/worn out, as well?  I think this is new(er) or very archaic, I disremember.

[Cain]

That sounds about right.  Not sure where it comes from, possibly the smoking of fags leaving one out of breath and so tired, and it's not common, but I've heard it once or twice.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The difference is that these terms are being used, appropriately or not, within the context of a cohesive and affectionate social group. That's not the case when you go on the internet and refer to other people as fags or snatches, so while it's perfectly reasonable for me and my friends to call each other fags and snatches, it would be PRETTY FUCKING STUPID to say those things to a group of random internet people of various backgrounds and expect everyone to be cool with it.

Right, snatches?

The bitch has a point.

[the last yatto]

Do I get to call you racist now? Even if you didn't mean it in that way?

Finns are a race?  Who knew?

Haroa

[Phox]

While Cram might be correct in the evolution of the term, if you asked someone what "fag" means, most would say either that it's a slur for homosexual, or that it explicitly was not a slur for homosexual-- that is, they believed it usually is a slur, "but not in the way I do it."

Which is simply a nice way of justifying why they use what they believe to be a homosexual slur.

This. Again, it depends on the perception of the person hearing it, not the "intention" of the person saying it.. "Newfag", "oldfag", etc. are direct derivatives from the use of "fag" as a homophobic slur, and they are still charged with that sentiment.

see I think they are direct derivatives of the word "fag" used as a generally insulting term

that's why you never hear anything like "newqueer" or "new-homo" or "newgay" or whatever else people insultingly call homosexuals these days



I think earlier ITT somebody posted a link to the southpark episode about this which encapsulates this discussion pretty well. The kids were pissed off that these bikers were being really obnoxious and spraypainted "GO AWAY FAGS" all over town. This prompted the elementary school to lecture them about tolerance for  homosexuals, which confused everybody. Eventually somebody said, "ohhh. .they think that we were referring to gay fags."


the same argument could apply to the word "whore". I can call somebody a drama-whore without being inherently offensive to women.

Or I can say "quit bitching", and it's not inherently sexist, even though if you tease it apart, I am saying that your whining reminds me of a woman.


(I'm not saying you're bitching BTW, just giving an example  )

Now, see, I don't think "queer", "homo", or "gay" would work because the LGBT community has appropriated those words for itself. On the whole, they are still very against the use of the word "fag", however, because it is innately an insult. So calling someone "newhomo" wouldn't read as insult to someone who wasn't homophobic to begin with.

And again, the issue isn't the usage, it's the common perception. The South Park episode is a great example. There is a misinterpretation of the way the word is being used, BUT the problem is society as a whole hasn't moved past "fag = gay" yet. In your other examples, society has sufficiently moved on, and it was only a comparatively recent shift.

"glorious faggot"

oops

See, I don't put qualifiers on these things.  I have not restrained my speech from my kids at home--in fact, we only tell them when it's appropriate to use cuss words.  And for all the f-bomb as it's politely called is thrown around liberally around this house, my kids NEVER cuss in front of adults.  Ever.  

I think language is a plastic thing that moves and shapes and breathes, but it has controls that you must learn in order to communicate successfully and effectively.  I'm hardly EVER the prescriptivist...I don't dictate (often) how people should term things so they are "nicer" or "less annoying," but instead find it fascinating when they adhere or DON'T to the social normative values of language.

/I actually quite fucking LOVE linguistics

But the problem lies in the fact that language IS a very powerful social tool. Whether you adhere to the norms or not, is a statement about the kind of people you wish to associate with, whether you intend it to be or not. You can tell the most about a person by the way they speak above all other things.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

"glorious faggot"

oops

That's different.  Salizoran customs have different standards.

[Jenne]

But the problem lies in the fact that language IS a very powerful social tool. Whether you adhere to the norms or not, is a statement about the kind of people you wish to associate with, whether you intend it to be or not. You can tell the most about a person by the way they speak above all other things.

What's the problem, exactly?  You're describing exactly what I said:  that language has social normative values, and a certain knowledge of them is required to function with any success while using it.

Now, English language LEARNERS (meaning:  people who don't speak the language indigenously NOR live within the cultures that speak it indigenously) don't always KNOW those values or live them, do they?  So their perception would be "off" sometimes.  And the internet is an INTERESTING place to learn those values, to say the least.

It's less black and white, is what I'm saying, than you seem to want to accept or purport, but then language, interaction and culture tends to be that way once you go past the "this is wrong, this is right, etc." sort of discussion.

[the last yatto]

Sorry, should've thought twice before using that. But is "oldfag" even a pejorative? I don't think it really applies any negative effects to the LGBT people, or anyone else for that matter.

It depends on how a person takes it. I for one find it offensive as fuck, so I repeat, fuck off with that shit.

Nigga wut?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Wait, since when have queers not appropriated the word "fag"? We must live on different planets.

Also, "the LGBT community".

Sorry, longstanding pet peeve.

[the last yatto]

Fag is like sexual harassment. Its only not okay when an ugly person does it

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Fag is like sexual harassment. Its only not okay when an ugly person does it

Wow.