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I Am Free

Started by POFP, March 29, 2014, 01:02:59 AM

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The Johnny


Well, you want to be bound, which is the opposite of being free anyhow, so there you go.  :fnord:
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

POFP

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 02:20:08 AM

Well, you want to be bound, which is the opposite of being free anyhow, so there you go.  :fnord:

Why I oughta!!  :argh!:
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

The Johnny


Well, in an attempt to make an overview of statements and a response to them:

People saying "please" and "thank you" you are assuming it is done out of "obligation", therefore SHEEPLE (or whatever iteration or representation); now, your interpretation of a social phenomena is very much rigid, and its open for multiple interpretations: 1) people can be genuinely kind instead of being rampant assholes because they genuinely are nice people 2) i myself are very kind because not only is it a dignified way of treating your fellow humans, but its also practical, people are more willing to cooperate thru kindness than thru imperatives and demands. So your SHEEPLE reasoning goes out the window with those two reasons on why people are kind.

Friends are allies. Allies support and look out for each other - otherwise they are acquaintances or strangers. Or maybe you are a self-centered douche that gets favours and doesnt reciprocate.

I kind of get your idea of not doing favours out of self-interest, but calling it corrupt to me its a bit of a stretch. Doing a "free favour" can mean doing "the right or humane thing", sure. But doing a favour could also be within the context of friendship, in which, both look out for each other - theres certain reciprocation expected in an undeterminate frame scope with an undeterminate favour coming back.

You also have a certain solipsist thing goin on as in "I are the Determinator of mine reality" which seems an overcompensation or a cover up of a lack of power in your personal life. Friendship is a choice of two people, not your own to make (and sure, enemies are yours to choose).

Shouting really loudly "I AM FREE" doesn't make you any freer.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny


Also, i think i like the notion of "compatibilism"  :lulz: Has that been broached in a certain thread?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

We are also a social species and need to be around each other in order to survive... in fact, our large social networks are largely responsible for the development of our high intelligence.

Human beings who are isolated have a nasty habit of just simply dying, and even if they live a full life-span, they are a dead end as the isolated human leaves no offspring.

So, you know, the daydream of total self-reliance is pretty much pure fantasy.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


POFP

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
People saying "please" and "thank you" you are assuming it is done out of "obligation", therefore SHEEPLE (or whatever iteration or representation); now, your interpretation of a social phenomena is very much rigid, and its open for multiple interpretations: 1) people can be genuinely kind instead of being rampant assholes because they genuinely are nice people 2) i myself are very kind because not only is it a dignified way of treating your fellow humans, but its also practical, people are more willing to cooperate thru kindness than thru imperatives and demands. So your SHEEPLE reasoning goes out the window with those two reasons on why people are kind.

Yes, some people I meet are genuinely kind and would say "please" and "thank you" without obligation. But most of the people I interact with on a day-to-day basis don't say those things and, in fact, would feel offended to say those things. We'll attribute that part to the people around me, specifically, being shitty people. I'm glad to hear that people in other places think much more highly of other humans. Most of the people around me, are ones I'd consider to be SHEEPLE.

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
Friends are allies. Allies support and look out for each other - otherwise they are acquaintances or strangers. Or maybe you are a self-centered douche that gets favours and doesnt reciprocate.

Most of my "allies" try to get out of reciprocating anything. Maybe we shouldn't call them allies. We'll also attribute this one to biased interpretations based on the environment as well.

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
I kind of get your idea of not doing favours out of self-interest, but calling it corrupt to me its a bit of a stretch. Doing a "free favour" can mean doing "the right or humane thing", sure. But doing a favour could also be within the context of friendship, in which, both look out for each other - theres certain reciprocation expected in an undeterminate frame scope with an undeterminate favour coming back.

Even if I do something for a friend, I don't expect anything in return. I see that as unfair. Is that just my way of escaping being let-down?

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
You also have a certain solipsist thing goin on as in "I are the Determinator of mine reality" which seems an overcompensation or a cover up of a lack of power in your personal life. Friendship is a choice of two people, not your own to make (and sure, enemies are yours to choose).

Shouting really loudly "I AM FREE" doesn't make you any freer.

I've had a dominant personality my whole life, in a world that I was told I had no power in. That is, until I started reading people like Robert Anton Wilson and the like. I must say, I've not felt the urge to exert control over other people since I started reading people like him. It's all kind of combined to give me a God-Complex, in which I don't have to do shit to be in control.

Sadly, it seems, the rest of everything I know other than those ideologies points to living life via reaction to consequences. The way I saw it, you could be free if you could be immune to consequences, either their temptation (I want to make this deal because it helps me) or negative affects (I stole something, so I got arrested). I just can't believe it took me so long to realize that all that was just occultist mumbo jumbo or, at least, that it was based off of it.

Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:26:32 AM
Also, i think i like the notion of "compatibilism"  :lulz: Has that been broached in a certain thread?

I don't know, has the search bar been fixed? Nvm, I can use Google I guess, with inurl:principiadiscordia.com/forum. BTW, is that shit ever gonna get fixed?

Quote from: Nigel on March 30, 2014, 04:29:36 PM
We are also a social species and need to be around each other in order to survive... in fact, our large social networks are largely responsible for the development of our high intelligence.

Human beings who are isolated have a nasty habit of just simply dying, and even if they live a full life-span, they are a dead end as the isolated human leaves no offspring.

So, you know, the daydream of total self-reliance is pretty much pure fantasy.

I never proposed total physical separation from other people. That would be awful. I would want to die. Although, I've been mentally isolated my whole life until recently. I think I may have resembled a SHEEPLE during that time though. Probably makes sense.

I guess the self-reliance thing is an illusion anyways, seeing as how humans have to rely on the environment for their survival, not just other people to keep them sane.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

Pæs

Do you really find that "SHEEPLE/FREEPLE" or similar is a useful model to use to interact with the world? Because it sounds like an ego trip.

POFP

Quote from: Pæs on March 30, 2014, 08:14:08 PM
Do you really find that "SHEEPLE/FREEPLE" or similar is a useful model to use to interact with the world? Because it sounds like an ego trip.

I'm finding it hard to make that connection. So you're probably right.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

Pæs

Quote from: PlightOfFernandoPoo on March 30, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 30, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
I kind of get your idea of not doing favours out of self-interest, but calling it corrupt to me its a bit of a stretch. Doing a "free favour" can mean doing "the right or humane thing", sure. But doing a favour could also be within the context of friendship, in which, both look out for each other - theres certain reciprocation expected in an undeterminate frame scope with an undeterminate favour coming back.
Even if I do something for a friend, I don't expect anything in return. I see that as unfair. Is that just my way of escaping being let-down?
How do you know that the person is a friend?

I'm not about to propose an economy of favours whereby each nice thing you do is expected to earn you a favour token to be converted into future favours, but if you're doing nice things for people and they do not do nice things for you, they're probably not a very good friend.

Quote from: PlightOfFernandoPoo on March 30, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: Nigel on March 30, 2014, 04:29:36 PM
We are also a social species and need to be around each other in order to survive... in fact, our large social networks are largely responsible for the development of our high intelligence.

Human beings who are isolated have a nasty habit of just simply dying, and even if they live a full life-span, they are a dead end as the isolated human leaves no offspring.

So, you know, the daydream of total self-reliance is pretty much pure fantasy.

I never proposed total physical separation from other people. That would be awful. I would want to die. Although, I've been mentally isolated my whole life until recently. I think I may have resembled a SHEEPLE during that time though. Probably makes sense.

I guess the self-reliance thing is an illusion anyways, seeing as how humans have to rely on the environment for their survival, not just other people to keep them sane.
You also rely on other people to crowdsource your search for knowledge, your understanding of which foods are safe to eat, the actual sourcing and production of those foods, the maintenance of the roads and the electrical infrastructure, the design and manufacture of the computer that lets you inform the internet that you want to be 'purely you' as if there is a single part of you that is not the result of your interaction with culture.

POFP

Quote from: Pæs on March 30, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
How do you know that the person is a friend?

I'm not about to propose an economy of favours whereby each nice thing you do is expected to earn you a favour token to be converted into future favours, but if you're doing nice things for people and they do not do nice things for you, they're probably not a very good friend.

You also rely on other people to crowdsource your search for knowledge, your understanding of which foods are safe to eat, the actual sourcing and production of those foods, the maintenance of the roads and the electrical infrastructure, the design and manufacture of the computer that lets you inform the internet that you want to be 'purely you' as if there is a single part of you that is not the result of your interaction with culture.

I guess the friends are the people who do return those favors when it's important. But for the people who don't, I won't use that against them. I will simply know that I can't call upon them to back me up. But there are people I care about that I don't expect anything from. Part of me will always put them first.

I'd like to think that there's something that is ME that is not the result of my interactions with culture. But I guess that's getting into personal belief systems - Something I don't want to have. I feel so limited by language and the nervous system. I can't find a way to explain or show you what I think with maximum accuracy.

I figured, becoming "purely me," if there is such a thing, would be the transcendence I hoped for.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

Pæs

Quote from: PlightOfFernandoPoo on March 30, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
I feel so limited by language and the nervous system. I can't find a way to explain or show you what I think with maximum accuracy.
You are language and the nervous system. Do you believe that you have thoughts that are not constrained by language, resulting in your being unable to express them with it? Are there beliefs you have that are not represented internally by language?

POFP

Quote from: Pæs on March 30, 2014, 09:59:42 PM
Quote from: PlightOfFernandoPoo on March 30, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
I feel so limited by language and the nervous system. I can't find a way to explain or show you what I think with maximum accuracy.
You are language and the nervous system. Do you believe that you have thoughts that are not constrained by language, resulting in your being unable to express them with it? Are there beliefs you have that are not represented internally by language?

Not beliefs, just thoughts. Though, I realize, I'm only taking written/spoken language into account. Language gives my perceptions structure. Maybe I'm using the wrong language. Or maybe I'm trying to "structuralize" something with language that isn't meant to be structured. Something so inclusive, it envelops language, the nervous system, and everything else. It seems to be something so "big-picture" I can't even use anything "in the picture" to describe it. Even that analogy falls apart. Everything in a picture makes up the picture. I don't have every detail of the picture, and so I can't show you the picture.

Is there anything bigger than me, if I am language and the nervous system? That is the question. Everyone who claims to have an answer is full of shit. But assuming they're full of shit makes you no different than them. Oh, well that makes things easy. Now I'm back to where I started - Not giving a fuck.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

The Good Reverend Roger

Nihilism is dismal.  Its about as edgy as a bus station bathroom.  Just saying.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

POFP

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 30, 2014, 11:28:16 PM
Nihilism is dismal.  Its about as edgy as a bus station bathroom.  Just saying.

Yeah, but there's not much else at the moment.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

hooplala

Quote from: PlightOfFernandoPoo on March 30, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: Pæs on March 30, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
How do you know that the person is a friend?

I'm not about to propose an economy of favours whereby each nice thing you do is expected to earn you a favour token to be converted into future favours, but if you're doing nice things for people and they do not do nice things for you, they're probably not a very good friend.

You also rely on other people to crowdsource your search for knowledge, your understanding of which foods are safe to eat, the actual sourcing and production of those foods, the maintenance of the roads and the electrical infrastructure, the design and manufacture of the computer that lets you inform the internet that you want to be 'purely you' as if there is a single part of you that is not the result of your interaction with culture.

I guess the friends are the people who do return those favors when it's important. But for the people who don't, I won't use that against them. I will simply know that I can't call upon them to back me up. But there are people I care about that I don't expect anything from. Part of me will always put them first.

I'd like to think that there's something that is ME that is not the result of my interactions with culture. But I guess that's getting into personal belief systems - Something I don't want to have. I feel so limited by language and the nervous system. I can't find a way to explain or show you what I think with maximum accuracy.

I figured, becoming "purely me," if there is such a thing, would be the transcendence I hoped for.

What if you became "purely you", but you were horrible?  Is being "purely you" enough?

Serious question.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman