Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Horrorology => Topic started by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 05:58:48 PM

Title: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
We here in Tucson have more than our fair share of Young Conservatives™.  You've seen them.  Their hair is impeccably groomed, they wear kakhis and dockers, and they are very eager to get you to understand that their ways are logical, consistent, and correct.

Of course, they're 169% wrong.  The fact that their theories are logical precludes them from actually being functional, because - on any level that politics is functional at - humans are not logical creatures.  To paraphrase a movie I sort of enjoyed, "A human can be logical.  Humans are as irrational as a shithouse rat."

But we don't just see this in the far right, do we?  No, it pervades all elements of society, though most especially at either end of the political and/or social spectrums.

The standard by which humans should make decisions would be "Given the information that I have processed, X is true."  The standard by which humans actually make decisions is "Things would be really great if X were true, so I am going to behave as if it was, no matter what the universe says."

And this is where the late, frequently misquoted Adam Smith comes in.  When he talked about "the invisible hand of the marketplace", he certainly didn't mean "corporations will do what's right, because they make decisions based on marketplace reality", he meant "If, in the marketplace, decisions are made that do not reflect reality, then reality will come back and kick your arse sideways, sooner or later."

It's a simple concept, right?  So simple that you'd expect at least the Superior Mutants™ to understand it...But we're just as irrational as any other group of monkeys, so you have people jabbering about rational anarchy, how neat things would be if only human nature would suddenly change, etc.

Well, here's a bit of Horrible Truth™ for you:  The universe is what it is, and it's not going to change because you've adopted a philosophy that would really be neat if things were different.  Your wants and beliefs have precisely zero impact on the world, unless they are somehow compatible with the way the world actually works in real life.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't already understand that to get it, and I don't expect those who do understand it - but don't want to - to stop jabbering about their pet ideas and utopian dreams.  I wish they would, because I'd much rather use all this potential for rage at work, but I'm realistic enough to know that most people will read the above and assume it applies to everyone but themselves.

God, how I hate you all.

Okay for now,
Dok
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 07:23:21 PM
The last bit is the key, too, because with the assumption that this applies to everyone but oneself there's the basis of all political bickering and stupidity.  With libertarians on the rise and the growing popularity of Ayn Rand, I think a lot of people are taking the "there is no subjective reality" idea and using it as justify their own whacked out interpretations of things.  Anyway I'd like to spend more time on this one.  I'm heading in to work and hopefully when I get there I can concentrate on it a bit more.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 07:30:59 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 07:23:21 PM
The last bit is the key, too, because with the assumption that this applies to everyone but oneself there's the basis of all political bickering and stupidity.  With libertarians on the rise and the growing popularity of Ayn Rand, I think a lot of people are taking the "there is no subjective reality" idea and using it as justify their own whacked out interpretations of things.  Anyway I'd like to spend more time on this one.  I'm heading in to work and hopefully when I get there I can concentrate on it a bit more.

Precisely.  It's what you don't (won't) see that sells you.

The libertarians scream that their ideas are valid, and then build an entire philosophy and - if they had their way - economic model on it.  Problem is, Rand and her fellow fucktards are operating on a fundamentally flawed premise.  You are not supposed to question that, though (assuming you're in her fan club).  Just like any religion, the moment you accept one incorrect premise, you're lost.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Freeky on September 20, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
Bah, I hate it when you write a really good thing and I can't think of anything to reply to it with.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path.  Those would be reality.  If it came to discussing the train being filthy inside, or just untidy, that would be an interpretation of reality.  What I was saying is that people take the latter, and treat is as though it's the former.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

:lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

:lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:56:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

:lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.

I'm aware of that.  I must've mistaken this for a discussion topic, wherein someone could explain how they see two of your pieces are linked.  I see you'd prefer an "awesome, Dok" or some mittens instead.

I'll be done in this thread, then.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 10:06:11 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:56:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

:lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.

I'm aware of that.  I must've mistaken this for a discussion topic, wherein someone could explain how they see two of your pieces are linked.  I see you'd prefer an "awesome, Dok" or some mittens instead.

I'll be done in this thread, then.

:?

Um, okay.  Asking people to talk about apples instead of oranges in a thread about apples is totally the same as asking for adulation.

For fuck's sake.

I quit.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:22:34 AM
Okay, my mad is over.  I'm still done, but I have one thing to add:

If you are on a train track, and a Southbound freight train is coming, it is important to know if the inside of the train is dirty or not.  Likewise, if your politicians are fucking you, it is critical to know if their party colors are blue or red.  These details are of more import than the fact that you're about to me turned into a gooey red paste.

Because that's what the Truth is all about, isn't it?  Paying attention to shit like that?  I mean, that train isn't here YET, and YOUR kid hasn't been fed to the meatgrinder in Afghanistan, so it never pays to look too closely.  The window dressing is all you need.

But don't worry about that.  Everyone knows that I'm not trying to communicate anything of importance.  I'm just a whore for mittens.

You may now return to your best of all possible worlds.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: The Wizard on September 21, 2010, 12:33:22 AM
A big part is that people think that a Utopia is possible and that if they work hard enough that they'll live to see it happen. They don't get that a perfect society is impossible, because people are inherently imperfect. They can't except that the best you can hope for is to make the world the world abetter place. It has to be perfect, and their personal take on perfect to boot. Never mind that everyone has different ideas on perfect. Only their vision counts. I've always had the impression that Utopians are closet fascists, because they refuse to take into account that what they like might not be what everyone likes. Kind of like the little asshole in preschool who insists that because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, everyone has to like it too.

Speaking personally, if the world is a better/more interesting place when I leave it, then I'll call mission accomplished.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:34:36 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on September 21, 2010, 12:33:22 AM
A big part is that people think that a Utopia is possible and that if they work hard enough that they'll live to see it happen. They don't get that a perfect society is impossible, because people are inherently imperfect. They can't except that the best you can hope for is to make the world the world abetter place. It has to be perfect, and their personal take on perfect to boot. Never mind that everyone has different ideas on perfect. Only their vision counts. I've always had the impression that Utopians are closet fascists, because they refuse to take into account that what they like might not be what everyone likes. Kind of like the little asshole in preschool who insists that because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, everyone has to like it too.

Speaking personally, if the world is a better/more interesting place when I leave it, then I'll call mission accomplished.

Utopias are built on bones.  'Nuff said.

Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: The Wizard on September 21, 2010, 12:35:13 AM
QuoteUtopias are built on bones.  'Nuff said.

Just ask Stalin.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Jasper on September 21, 2010, 01:30:45 AM
It would be true if, well, utopias were ever built.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Cain on September 21, 2010, 12:50:39 PM
It's well worth noting our current leaders are as Utopian as anything that came out of the CCP or a certain ideology popular in central Europe in the 1930s.

Just because that's a point some people seem to miss.  It's perfectly fine to criticize other, historical Utopian projects, but the age of that is all over, because the Market is a perfect and efficient God, who shall dispense justice on the unworthy and shower gifts on the deserving.

John Gray, probably the only living British philosopher still worth listening to, keeps trying to point this out.  He would know.  He was a Thatcherite, before he turned to New Labour, before he turned away from all of that.  He says, accurately, since such ideologies do nothing except advocate the same tired old policies, on the basis that the market will always solve problems, never create them, and that everyone everywhere is ultimately the same, and so one-size-fits-all solutions are perfectly reasonable, despite the fact countries like Greece and Paraguay have markedly different economies to that of the UK and USA.

It's a good book and I'm sure I've recommended it before.  I just wanted to mention it because the fact our own leaders are highly ideologically charged and Utopian in their beliefs seems to pass most commentators and journalists by - usually because they are of the same socio-economic class, or went to University where they could be indoctrinated by people drawing paychecks from that class, and so cannot even see how Utopian such views are anymore.  Their own ideological capture is so complete they cannot even critically assess the times in which we live with any degree of accuracy.

Hell, just look at Blair.  He said in his biography that the markets didn't fail in the recent banking crisis, it was entirely the fault of the (toothless) regulars and governments.  And people just nodded their heads like they were hypnotised and said "well that's a very important and interesting point", as if it had any basis in reality (as if Blair's piece of fiction he somehow labelled a biography had any basis in reality).
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Cain on September 21, 2010, 12:59:31 PM
Of course, certain cynics are no better.  Henry Kissinger comes to mind.  Kissinger is probably one of the few people in government in the last thirty years who has tried to systematically dismantle his own assumptions about how the world should work and operate on the principles of how the world actually works.

He didn't do very well.  In fact, any assessment of his methods and statements will show how wrong he has been.  For just one example, he suggested that the US government deal with the Communist coup plotters who overthrew Gorbachev, as their power base was secure and they were rational people.  It turns out neither of these facts were true, and Kissinger had egg on his face when Gorbachev was restored and the coup plotters suffered a series of unfortunate accidents before reaching trial, though anyone pointing out said egg on his face probably met with similar kinds of accidents to the coup plotters.

Just a warning, that sometimes a certain kind of cynicism hardens into it's own dogmatic dystopianism which is no better than the Utopianism of those mentioned above.  Adam Curtis, the BBC documentary maker, suggested that both the Neocons and Al-Qaeda are revolutionary dystopians, which may account for their strange mix of hard-headed cynicism yet absolute belief in themselves and their methods.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2010, 04:56:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
And this is where the late, frequently misquoted Adam Smith comes in.  When he talked about "the invisible hand of the marketplace", he certainly didn't mean "corporations will do what's right, because they make decisions based on marketplace reality", he meant "If, in the marketplace, decisions are made that do not reflect reality, then reality will come back and kick your arse sideways, sooner or later."

I need to make a huge poster of this and hang it in my cubicle.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 06:30:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:31:02 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:30:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:31:02 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:30:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.

Well, you didn't say it was the train to Hogwarts, madgheic alters all realities.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:37:46 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:31:02 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:30:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.

Well, you didn't say it was the train to Hogwarts, madgheic alters all realities.

No, it turns out that your perception of the train's attributes will keep it from mashing you flat.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2010, 06:39:32 PM
Where's the "TGRR as Freight Train" emote when you really need it?
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

Well, here's the scoop...They're on one side, hanging out of their precariously leaning ivory tower, spouting perception.  On the other side, you have the know-nothings screeching their perceptions.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 21, 2010, 06:39:32 PM
Where's the "TGRR as Freight Train" emote when you really need it?

It's still there, in the hidden group (why some emotes are hidden are beyond me).  But I'm not the freight train, anymore.  One's coming, though, so you'd best decide what color it is.  It's the only way to be safe.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 06:55:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

Well, here's the scoop...They're on one side, hanging out of their precariously leaning ivory tower, spouting perception.  On the other side, you have the know-nothings screeching their perceptions.

Good luck.

Fuck. That's depressing. True as hell, but still depressing.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

True enough.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast. 

Perception.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path.  Those would be reality.  If it came to discussing the train being filthy inside, or just untidy, that would be an interpretation of reality. 

Perception and utterly irrelevant.

But what the fuck.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:59:03 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:55:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

Well, here's the scoop...They're on one side, hanging out of their precariously leaning ivory tower, spouting perception.  On the other side, you have the know-nothings screeching their perceptions.

Good luck.

Fuck. That's depressing. True as hell, but still depressing.

Welcome to the planet of the retarded apes.  Don't bother trying to help them, they'll kill you for it.  Or just accuse you of ranting just to get mittens.

Just get your giggles in as they tear the place down.

Dok,
Just a little bitter.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:02:29 PM
Alright, I thought I was done in this thread, but apparently all that means is I'm going to get ridiculed.  Apparently I did a poor job of getting myself across.

Roger, at no point, in any of my posts, have I disagreed with or corrected anything you said in the OP.  I'm not arguing that how someone perceives reality changes it.  What I was attempting to do is contribute to the thread, constructively, which I am still hoping can be done.

So I will try again:

Reality, as Roger stated, is not subjective.  I agree with that, and stated so in my posts.  Perceptions of reality, whether you want to call them reality filters or grids, are subjective.

So at the end of the OP, Dok states that a fundamental error people make about this is that it somehow doesn't apply to themselves.  I was arguing that this is true, and adding that people also mistake their perception of reality for reality itself.  This doesn't change reality because as has been established, reality is not subjective.  But when people think that their screwy grids are the non-subjective reality, it becomes a trap.

That is really all.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:03:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:59:03 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:55:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 06:41:33 PM
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

Well, here's the scoop...They're on one side, hanging out of their precariously leaning ivory tower, spouting perception.  On the other side, you have the know-nothings screeching their perceptions.

Good luck.

Fuck. That's depressing. True as hell, but still depressing.

Welcome to the planet of the retarded apes.  Don't bother trying to help them, they'll kill you for it.  Or just accuse you of ranting just to get mittens.

Just get your giggles in as they tear the place down.

Dok,
Just a little bitter.

I'm good with that, just so long as The Reality Cabal™ is stocked up on the good whiskey and scotch.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2010, 07:04:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 21, 2010, 06:39:32 PM
Where's the "TGRR as Freight Train" emote when you really need it?

It's still there, in the hidden group (why some emotes are hidden are beyond me).  But I'm not the freight train, anymore.  One's coming, though, so you'd best decide what color it is.  It's the only way to be safe.

If I can tell how fast it's going, it will no longer have a location, only a probability.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 07:05:11 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:02:29 PM
Alright, I thought I was done in this thread, but apparently all that means is I'm going to get ridiculed.  Apparently I did a poor job of getting myself across.

Roger, at no point, in any of my posts, have I disagreed with or corrected anything you said in the OP.  I'm not arguing that how someone perceives reality changes it.  What I was attempting to do is contribute to the thread, constructively, which I am still hoping can be done.

So I will try again:

Reality, as Roger stated, is not subjective.  I agree with that, and stated so in my posts.  Perceptions of reality, whether you want to call them reality filters or grids, are subjective.

So at the end of the OP, Dok states that a fundamental error people make about this is that it somehow doesn't apply to themselves.  I was arguing that this is true, and adding that people also mistake their perception of reality for reality itself.  This doesn't change reality because as has been established, reality is not subjective.  But when people think that their screwy grids are the non-subjective reality, it becomes a trap.

That is really all.

SORRY.  I ONLY RESPOND TO MITTENS.

DOK,
EMOTE WHORE
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:11:52 PM
I thought you responded to wild women, fast horses and good whiskey. At the end of the day those are all that matter.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:13:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

This is where the comment about mittens came from, Dok.  You replied mocking something I wasn't even saying.  So yeah, it pretty much clues me in that you aren't interested discussing your post.  

I really don't know where the animosity came from that you assumed I meant the worst for you.  Like I said yesterday, I was under the impression we had some kind of mutual respect.  I respect you, but instead, I get treated like some asshole you're now accusing of a bunch of things that aren't even true.

Oh, and the ivory tower thing, really.   :lulz:  You know, and I will inform Charley too, that I work at a fucking jail.  You have even ridden in my shitty '98 Honda Civic.  If I'm in an ivory tower that's one small fucking tower.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:14:29 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:13:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

This is where the comment about mittens came from, Dok.  You replied mocking something I wasn't even saying.  So yeah, it pretty much clues me in that you aren't interested discussing your post.  

I really don't know where the animosity came from that you assumed I meant the worst for you.  Like I said yesterday, I was under the impression we had some kind of mutual respect.  I respect you, but instead, I get treated like some asshole you're now accusing of a bunch of things that aren't even true.

Oh, and the ivory tower thing, really.   :lulz:  You know, and I will inform Charley too, that I work at a fucking jail.  You have even ridden in my shitty '98 Honda Civic.  If I'm in an ivory tower that's one small fucking tower.

Why are you dragging me into this?
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:16:46 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 07:14:29 PM
Why are you dragging me into this?

Not my intention.  It was pretty clear to me that Dok was trying to call me some kind of ivory tower pseudo-intellectual, and I wanted to just state that no, I am not, I'm a fucking Dispatcher who went to a state school.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2010, 07:20:41 PM
I'm an office cog and a drummer, and didn't go to a "real" college, but you better believe I'm an Ivory Tower pseudo-intellectual.

Granted, I'm trying to get better, but still....
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:16:46 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 07:14:29 PM
Why are you dragging me into this?

Not my intention.  It was pretty clear to me that Dok was trying to call me some kind of ivory tower pseudo-intellectual, and I wanted to just state that no, I am not, I'm a fucking Dispatcher who went to a state school.

My perception is that you were.  :lol:

"and I will inform Charley too"

Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:24:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 21, 2010, 07:20:41 PM
I'm an office cog and a drummer, and didn't go to a "real" college, but you better believe I'm an Ivory Tower pseudo-intellectual.

Granted, I'm trying to get better, but still....

My hero is the guy who wrote "Don't squat with yer spurs on."

City women walk way around me, but Gretchen Wilson made eyes at me during her concert.

It's good to be me.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 07:44:28 PM
I am also heavily sedated medicated.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 07:13:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

This is where the comment about mittens came from, Dok.  You replied mocking something I wasn't even saying.  So yeah, it pretty much clues me in that you aren't interested discussing your post.  

I really don't know where the animosity came from that you assumed I meant the worst for you.  Like I said yesterday, I was under the impression we had some kind of mutual respect.  I respect you, but instead, I get treated like some asshole you're now accusing of a bunch of things that aren't even true.

Oh, and the ivory tower thing, really.   :lulz:  You know, and I will inform Charley too, that I work at a fucking jail.  You have even ridden in my shitty '98 Honda Civic.  If I'm in an ivory tower that's one small fucking tower.

"UNNNG" isn't there to point out an idiot.  It's there to point out idiocy.  Are you suggesting that you, me, or anyone else is smart all the time?  I know sure as hell that I'm not.

On the other hand, all the ranting I've done for the last 8 years was purely based on a need for emotes.  No, really.  I had no higher purpose whatsoever, I wasn't trying to communicate a damn thing, or put forth any ideas at all.  I simply crave mittens.

And that's why someone else can do the ranting from now on.  That was the absolute fucking limit.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 08:08:02 PM
:mittens:

I swear to god I tried not to. I fought the urge until sweat was dripping from my balls.



I am a very bad person.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Now the thread is complete.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 08:15:09 PM
You know I love you.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 08:29:57 PM
Dok, I realize I'm not brilliant all the time, some of the time, or even at all.  I just don't get how what I was saying was idiocy and needed to apparently be disregarded.  The two ideas aren't incongruous.

I used the train metaphor you came up with to clarify what I meant in the difference between perception and reality.  I know you understand the difference, so the whole filthy inside of the train thing was to point out that I knew the difference as well and intended to, from the beginning, convey that not everyone did.

So yeah, I threw the mittens comment at you because it's precisely the same complete disregard that you'd already expressed toward me in this thread.  I'll fess up to that.  Ook fucking ook.

Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 07:21:44 PM
My perception is that you were.  :lol:

"and I will inform Charley too"



:argh!: You scamp.

Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 21, 2010, 07:20:41 PM
I'm an office cog and a drummer, and didn't go to a "real" college, but you better believe I'm an Ivory Tower pseudo-intellectual.

Granted, I'm trying to get better, but still....

I'd drop the Ivory Tower and pseudo.  I think you're a legit intellectual, in the non-insulting sense.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:32:29 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 08:29:57 PM
So yeah, I threw the mittens comment at you because it's precisely the same complete disregard that you'd already expressed toward me in this thread.  I'll fess up to that.  Ook fucking ook.

I'm sorry you can't distinguish between yourself and a badly-worded argument.

Why are we still talking to each other, again?
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 08:37:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Now the thread is complete.

Please tell me that didn't piss you off.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:41:36 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 08:37:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Now the thread is complete.

Please tell me that didn't piss you off.

What?  No.

I was using it as a vehicle to once again express my hatred at the comment made by EoC, and how fucking pissed off I am.  Not that it matters, because he has since explained that it was intentional.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 08:42:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:41:36 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 08:37:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Now the thread is complete.

Please tell me that didn't piss you off.

What?  No.

I was using it as a vehicle to once again express my hatred at the comment made by EoC, and how fucking pissed off I am.  Not that it matters, because he has since explained that it was intentional.

Whew.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 21, 2010, 08:51:41 PM
And I will say EoC, that the comment about mittens was pretty harsh. Dok puts a lot of work in his stuff, and what he wants is intelligent conversation back.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:56:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 08:51:41 PM
And I will say EoC, that the comment about mittens was pretty harsh. Dok puts a lot of work in his stuff, and what he wants is intelligent conversation back.

No, actually, that's what I wanted.  Now I'm happy in Apple Talk.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 08:32:29 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 08:29:57 PM
So yeah, I threw the mittens comment at you because it's precisely the same complete disregard that you'd already expressed toward me in this thread.  I'll fess up to that.  Ook fucking ook.

I'm sorry you can't distinguish between yourself and a badly-worded argument.

Why are we still talking to each other, again?

Well it's simple.  It's the reaction that one "badly-worded argument" garnished.  Instead of assuming that I'm not trying to fuck up your thread and, until the mittens comment, hadn't been attacking you, you proclaimed that I apparently wasn't getting it and was actually being too much of an idiot to get it.  I don't know what in our interactions together has made you think that I'm either intentionally fucking with your shit or meant any disrespect at all in what I was saying, but you're apparently seeing something I'm not.

I don't know why you're still talking to me, but I can tell you why I'm still talking to you.  I mean, aside from the fact that you're mocking me in a thread I tried to back out of before it got out of hand, or the fact that you directly accused me of retiring you from ranting.  I'm still talking because I don't see the need for two people who really aren't so wildly beyond one another's point of view to consider each other enemies.

You're still clinging to the ideas that either I'm too stupid, you're too stupid, or I'm just an asshole.  I really do think that maybe, just maybe, shit got fucked up this one time because that's what's bound to happen, as you have pointed out, when people get involved in anything.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:14:40 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 21, 2010, 08:51:41 PM
And I will say EoC, that the comment about mittens was pretty harsh. Dok puts a lot of work in his stuff, and what he wants is intelligent conversation back.

I understand it was harsh.  It's the only conclusion I could come to, when an actual attempt to engage in intelligent conversation was met with the implication that I'm being an idiot and pissing him off.

And really, it's in the same vein as what he said about my reply being an idiotic one.  I didn't tell him that he always, only ever, looks for accolades.  I told him that it's what seems to be happening in this post.  I guess if I'm guilty of not being able to separate my poorly worded argument from me as a person, he's guilty of not being able to separate one instance of not really caring about conversation from a larger trend of him being the initiator of said intelligent conversation.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Kai on September 21, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 20, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Well, here's a bit of Horrible Truth™ for you:  The universe is what it is, and it's not going to change because you've adopted a philosophy that would really be neat if things were different.  Your wants and beliefs have precisely zero impact on the world, unless they are somehow compatible with the way the world actually works in real life.

Dok, I can fly. No really, watch me! It's all in my dreams, but my dreams are real, you see, real in my head and therefore real everywhere. Decartes was SOOOO right. This brain is my separate and perfect magisterium. It can never be wrong about these things, Dok, its my brain. Perfect. Separate from the universe.

I sit up at night thinking about Herr Doktor Pangloss, that great man. He knew what was up! Of course this world is the best it could possibly be, because it wouldn't exist otherwise, right? All this pain and suffering, it just builds character, puts hair on the arms and chest! Why, if the world was actually free of suffering, it would be just plain wrong, no good no fun. Dok, you know it, when you look deep down inside, you know it. Just look into the eyes of a wolf, see those beady black eyes and you'll see that viciousness is just what humans deserve and its right and good and...

Oh, look at the time, need to take off now. Would you mind loosining my shirtbuckles and undoing the window? Yes yes, I know it's high up but once I'm in the air I can't fail, it's my perfect mind, it will keep me afloat. Just like the free market...
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
or the fact that you directly accused me of retiring you from ranting.  

No, that was just the last straw.

But from the content of your posts so far, you still believe I spent the last 8 years doing nothing but looking for mittens.

I'm pretty sure I'm done.  I mean, I've said what's been bothering me, and your response was "ook ook".  I don't see why you expect to get anything intelligible in return.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:14:40 PM

I understand it was harsh.  It's the only conclusion I could come to, when an actual attempt to engage in intelligent conversation was met with the implication that I'm being an idiot and pissing him off.

Well, you won the internets.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:35:34 PM
Dok, I'm starting to think we just can't communicate.  You are, and have been, actively ignoring the larger message in anything I've said to you in the last two days in favor of picking out the snippets you can get outraged about.

You told me earlier you're sorry I can't separate one poorly worded argument from myself.  Well I'm sorry you can't separate one thread in which you refused to converse from the beginning from yourself.  Because it's got nothing to do with 8 years of rants or writing, which you are dragging into it.  It's got to do with this fucking thread, right here.  That's it.

So no, nobody has won the fucking internets.  Instead we have two pains in the ass who are too fucking stupid to set some shit aside and try to move forward.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 09:35:34 PM
Dok, I'm starting to think we just can't communicate.  You are, and have been, actively ignoring the larger message in anything I've said to you in the last two days in favor of picking out the snippets you can get outraged about.

Yeah, that's pretty much intentional.  I find that I get more mittens that way.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on September 21, 2010, 09:51:45 PM
WHAT. THE. FUCK.

I really liked the OP Dok, printed it for the kiddies to read.  Most of what occured after.... eh.... 

I'm not going to help drag this out with a long comment, by the time I was able to get here and work up a good response I started reading the rest of the thread and..... 


When you think on it it's kind of a perfect example of what you were talking about to begin with, except you didn't warn us just how fucking annoying it could get Dok.

So I wll go on laughing myself silly at those around us who think they always know best what we are trying to say, do or think.  Come on up, bring the family, we can sit and watch the arch fall while the monkeys run around with their thumbs up their asses!!!





Khara.....  the bitch is making her way back.......
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 09:53:38 PM
Quote from: Kiaransalee on September 21, 2010, 09:51:45 PM
When you think on it it's kind of a perfect example of what you were talking about to begin with, except you didn't warn us just how fucking annoying it could get Dok.

Some things have to be experienced.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on September 21, 2010, 10:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 09:53:38 PM
Quote from: Kiaransalee on September 21, 2010, 09:51:45 PM
When you think on it it's kind of a perfect example of what you were talking about to begin with, except you didn't warn us just how fucking annoying it could get Dok.

Some things have to be experienced.

Aww thanks for letting me experience it!  

You are just too fucking thoughtful!  :evil:
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
Khara,
Are you actually trying to insist that I am telling the Dok I know what he's saying better than he does by insisting that you know what I'm saying better than I do?

Fine, fuck it, I admit it.  I'm telling Dok what to think and I'm really intent on showing how much more I know about his own idea than he does.  Furthermore, I'm too stupid to word an argument, much less read one that's been presented very clearly.

I'm out of this thread.  You can resume taking pot shots at me for whatever reason.  Or you can realize that, in two years here, I haven't stirred shit here without provocation, and have attempted to treat people with the respect that I, stupidly, thought they held in return.

EOC OUT.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 10:16:31 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
Khara,
Are you actually trying to insist that I am telling the Dok I know what he's saying better than he does by insisting that you know what I'm saying better than I do?

Fine, fuck it, I admit it.  I'm telling Dok what to think and I'm really intent on showing how much more I know about his own idea than he does.  Furthermore, I'm too stupid to word an argument, much less read one that's been presented very clearly.

I'm out of this thread.  You can resume taking pot shots at me for whatever reason.  Or you can realize that, in two years here, I haven't stirred shit here without provocation, and have attempted to treat people with the respect that I, stupidly, thought they held in return.

EOC OUT.

That's not the bitch I had, EoC.  I keep bringing it up, and you keep ignoring it.  I am beginning to believe that's intentional.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on September 21, 2010, 10:39:30 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
Khara,
Are you actually trying to insist that I am telling the Dok I know what he's saying better than he does by insisting that you know what I'm saying better than I do?

HEY EOC,

When I'm talking to your stupid ass I will make sure I direct it to you BY FUCKING NAME.  However, if you want to take exception where I'm just replying to Dok regarding an absolutely wonderful original post and be all offended and shit over my comment, sounds to me like you are feeling more guilty than anything.


Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
Fine, fuck it, I admit it.  I'm telling Dok what to think and I'm really intent on showing how much more I know about his own idea than he does.  Furthermore, I'm too stupid to word an argument, much less read one that's been presented very clearly.

Well the first step is always admitting it.  Good for you!  Keep it up and you'll get that coin!


Quote from: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
I'm out of this thread.  You can resume taking pot shots at me for whatever reason.  Or you can realize that, in two years here, I haven't stirred shit here without provocation, and have attempted to treat people with the respect that I, stupidly, thought they held in return.

EOC OUT.

My suggestion is you STFU, leave me out of your shit and we'll be good.  If you want me involved, I will be happy to go loco bitch all over your ass!  I don't take random potshots, I call it for what it is and use fucking names, so, again, get your panties out of a twist and move on.  You're only mad because you came off as a complete and total idiot in this thread and fucked it up for those of us who might have had some real input because you took the thread and flushed it down the toilet with your shit!

I very rarely even post here, hell I don't even come on here very often and it is because of shit like this.  I comment, naming no names, just making a comment and have stupid fuckers calling me out or posting penises on my face.  I don't have the patience for that shit.

I've seen you stir shit.  I've seen you make some actual thought provoking posts.  YAY for you.  I didn't say whether I did or did not respect you, I didn't say shit to you until you called me out.  You need to learn, you want to call me out and try to make it about me, I'm gonna rip off your head, shit down your throat then sew you back together.

Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 10:39:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 10:16:31 PM
That's not the bitch I had, EoC.  I keep bringing it up, and you keep ignoring it.  I am beginning to believe that's intentional.

Alright, you've made a liar out of me twice then, because I'm still here.  But only because I actually do want to solve this.

I thought I'd addressed it twice now.  Okay, so I said perhaps you'd prefer an "awesome, Dok" or mittens instead of an actual attempt to hold a conversation.

First, that is an asshole thing to say.  It was said, as an asshole thing to say, because I saw you deliberately mocking a post meant in earnest.  Poorly worded or not, like I've said, I was under the impression that at the very least I would be given the benefit of the doubt because I haven't given you any reason to think I'm some kind of shit stirrer.  If you can tell me that you weren't consciously being a dickhead toward me, then my comment was uncalled for, and untrue.  If you were insulting me purposefully, then I see no reason for you to have started this thread for anything but an attaboy if you weren't willing to engage in conversation about it.

Secondly, I never said that all eight years of your ranting was for mittens or accolades or whatever.  My comment was in this thread, given the information that I had at the time.  I've read your rants, I've contributed to your letters, and I greatly value your contributions to PD.  I've said this, and I think it's pretty awful that somehow that is all undone because of our interaction in this thread.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on September 21, 2010, 11:00:32 PM
Khara, if you aren't referring to the stupidity between Dok and I, what the hell are you referring to?  There have been maybe 5 posts that weren't Dok and I screeching at each other, a number of them were ridicule, and the rest seemed to me to be actual contributions.

Now you're comparing me with the guy who drew dicks and swastikas on your face?  Weltburger.  Again, really?

I'll take your word for it though.  Both on you being scary and you not intending your post to be about the rest of the bullshit.  I don't really need any more of this shit for me to take it otherwise.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 01:11:52 AM
Hey Dok, this thing between you and EoC is only symptomatic. A few days ago I asked for some help from this board and in the process killed a thread.  Nobody here wants to actually effect any changes, they just want to group up and bitch about shit. Well, fuck the lot of them. I don't need any help, I have rarely ever asked for any, and I don't know why I weakened and asked for it this time.

Never again.

Never again.

Hawk,
is a stand alone wrecking ball.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.

Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.

Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.



I hate to be the one......but they will shit out hundreds of tiny Doks.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.



I hate to be the one......but they will shit out hundreds of tiny Doks.

Well, then, I guess it will be time to have a little word with God then, won't it?
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: The Wizard on September 22, 2010, 04:14:11 AM
QuoteWell, then, I guess it will be time to have a little word with God then, won't it?

Don't forget the Devil man. Both of those bastards have some things to answer for.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 04:16:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.



I hate to be the one......but they will shit out hundreds of tiny Doks.

Well, then, I guess it will be time to have a little word with God then, won't it?

I thought we killed him.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:20:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:16:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.



I hate to be the one......but they will shit out hundreds of tiny Doks.

Well, then, I guess it will be time to have a little word with God then, won't it?

I thought we killed him.

That's just what the Romans thought.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 04:32:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:20:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:16:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:09:34 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
As I said, this whole horrorology thing was a fucking mistake.

I won't be repeating it.

And this is the real horror. We could have been something. Now less than a footnote in history.

Won't matter.  All this shit will disappear when the lights go out.

Of course, so will we.

Dok, you, me, and a few others will pop out the other side intact. It sucks being immortal.



Fuck that shit.  When painless dentistry goes, I'm going with it, even if I have to BEAT the coyotes into eating me.



I hate to be the one......but they will shit out hundreds of tiny Doks.

Well, then, I guess it will be time to have a little word with God then, won't it?

I thought we killed him.

That's just what the Romans thought.

Yeah, but they wore miniskirts.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 22, 2010, 06:45:01 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 01:11:52 AM
Hey Dok, this thing between you and EoC is only symptomatic. A few days ago I asked for some help from this board and in the process killed a thread.  Nobody here wants to actually effect any changes, they just want to group up and bitch about shit. Well, fuck the lot of them. I don't need any help, I have rarely ever asked for any, and I don't know why I weakened and asked for it this time.

Never again.

Never again.

Hawk,
is a stand alone wrecking ball.

You know, I saw the petulant aftermath of that thread and I just want to throw a big hearty "fuck you" out there about it.

You know I think the world of you, but this whole "my personal army" and "if you people aren't doing what I want you to do, then whatever you're doing is just shit" attitude everyone seems to be copping lately is bullshit. So nobody was around to service your pet project. So suck my dick... maybe people were too busy trying to fucking survive.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Adios on September 22, 2010, 08:57:53 PM
Fuck you Nigel. I rarely if ever ask for fucking help.
Title: Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 22, 2010, 09:47:41 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 08:57:53 PM
Fuck you Nigel. I rarely if ever ask for fucking help.

yeah, and I didn't even fucking see it when you posted it, but me and everyone else who DIDN'T FUCKING SEE IT or DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO DO ANYTHING RIGHT THEN got blasted anyway, regardless. And you're not the only one with that attitude lately.

It doesn't matter how rarely you ask for help... it doesn't ENTITLE you to it. But you can have a tantrum anyway, if that's what you want.