The Problem With PD is This (serious thread, not stupid attempt at sarcasm):

[East Coast Hustle]

did you even read my post? I also said the fluff / non fluff dichotomy is NOT WHAT I PERCEIVE THE PROBLEM TO BE, even though it's something everybody's been talking about. I brought up the fluff thing to segue into the Quality part, which is what I perceive the real issue to be.

I did read your post. Perhaps I utterly misinterpreted it, but it didn't seem to be addressing MY post specifically. My post was (A) made from the standpoint of a long-time heavily invested user, not from the standpoint of "OMG AN ADMIN", and (B) very specific about what I thought the problem was and that it was not "fluff vs. content". Half of your post addressed those points, which were not my points. Though I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, it just didn't seem to fit into the dialogue I was trying to have. Also, I have been pretty specific in a couple of different thread about my idea, which is to keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users. If that's snobby or elitist, well, then I'm a snobby elitist.

[The Lion]

do you faggots ever actually read what you write?

rofl.

bye <3

[Juana]

I agree that there seems to be fewer projects going right now then there were before I left, and I would like to see more (I have little to offer, I think, so aside from bringing the Twilight parody project back or something in that same vein, I don't think I can do much).

Also, I have been pretty specific in a couple of different thread about my idea, which is to keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users.

Add a forum section to BIP? Or something along those lines, anyway. But on the other hand, that might limit the number of projects that get started because it is extra work to go post on a separate forum.

Just a thought.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...

If this is supposed to be a forum where we can throw stuff out, play with it, poke at it and come up with ways to use it to our advantage... then it has to be a forum that let's other ideas wander around, even unpopular ones.

Yet, there are a whole host of ideas which get shouted down anytime they come up. If a few people want to discuss 'magic', it doesn't matter if that discussion is about magic as psychology or magic as supernatural claptrap... the posts of the ridiculous come screaming in like US Fighter Jets bombing the thread into oblivion. There are other topics too, but I'm not intending this as a list of pet peeves.

It seems to me that some posts are fluff, some posts are repetitive chatter, some posts are awesome and interesting and some posts touch some magic word wherein otherwise normal posters turn into unmitigated assholes intent on shitting all over the discussion.

If we want a playground where the monkeys can fling shit, then worrying about the quality of the content seems silly.
If we want a resource of interesting ideas and perspectives, and how we might implement those... then there has to be some measure of restraint when it comes to poo flinging.

That's my opinion... feel free to excoriate me now.

[East Coast Hustle]

If we want a playground where the monkeys can fling shit, then worrying about the quality of the content seems silly.
If we want a resource of interesting ideas and perspectives, and how we might implement those... then there has to be some measure of restraint when it comes to poo flinging.

That's my opinion... feel free to excoriate me now.

This, I think, is a very good point, and one I had overlooked. The tendency to shout people down and/or inject ad hominem attacks into threads that are an attempt to seriously explore an idea are a problem, though I still think the self-centered "everything is about how it relates to ME rather than how it relates to US" attitude is a bigger concern.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...

I think that we are all part of the problem, and that's the problem.

Not only that, but until more of us spend more time DOing and less time REACTing, we will remain a problem.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...

I think that we are all part of the problem, and that's the problem.

Not only that, but until more of us spend more time DOing and less time REACTing, we will remain a problem.

Excellent point, Nigel.

[Jasper]

An added note, I think the trend toward stronger community in the forums has had an overall positive effect on our ability to put down the flamethrowers and talk.  Time was, that just didn't happen.

[Cain]

bringing the Twilight parody project back

I considered doing that myself, but when I realised how many unfinished and ongoing projects I still (in my personal life, not just related to this place) have I kinda went "eh".

Sorry about that.

[Dr. Paes]

The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing.

You're not really driving this community. None of the mods are. You guys built it this way. So when it goes in a direction you don't like, (ie fluff threads or whatever) you're not in a position to "fix" it. I'm reminded of Kopyleft. To some extent, you have to accept that this thing has a life of its own, a cycle of its own, and that you don't have the authority to do anything about it. Whatever's wrong with the board, I don't think it's gonna be fixed by you and the other mods saying "Please stop this doubleplus ungood behavior." It's going to be fixed by doing what you want and then hoping people follow. In my experience, that's the major shaping force present on this board.

I'm just going to use Cramulus' post here because it sums up my feelings on this part quite nicely.

This community isn't going to change by any imposition of your will upon it. If you put the energy you want to feel when you're here into the board, others might respond to it positively and begin to behave similarly. Then again, they might respond with "FUCK YUO OPPRESSIN MAH UNLIMITED LOLCAT APPRECIATION" and there isn't actually anything you can do about that, unless you want to change how this place is run and likely see a lot of users walk out.

The "Let's take the balls somewhere else, somewhere that hasn't been corrupted yet" vibe that pops up occasionally, I think it's destined for failure. When somebody says it, without describing a specific site, a specific project that we'll move to, I just get the sense that they're all Sour Grapes about the state of the board and would rather move to a new house than clean up the kitchen.

This was the issue I found with the first time ECH brought this idea up.

I think we need to re-start the other site, and remind ourselves that no matter how far the screaming yahoos have penetrated into our inner sanctum, once we have found our resolve they will never be able to dig deep enough or fun far enough. In any such endeavor I will, of course, need Commander Ringmeat at my side, "inspiring" the troops in the usual way. This place may have run its course in terms of usefulness, but the ideas that started it are still good ones and I don't want to abandon them just yet.

This reads to me like "Roger, let's me and you leave these screaming yahoos behind and climb up into our treehouse to start a secret club. I get the impression that others interpreted it this way, also, by the comments on the elitist attitude.

It seems that what you meant by that was:

Keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users.

Which could work as an alternative to attempting to change the energy here. A different place, started up with the understanding that it has a specific purpose, because PD.com is up for any program, regardless of whether you have  expectations about what people are here for or not.

If you've got a specific location you'd like to gather those who are more interested in what you perceive to be the program, post teh linkz0rs and I'll certainly see you there.

[The Wizard]

I think that maybe the problem is that discussion's here are either A) no longer fun or B) no longer surprising for some people here. In another thread, Roger mentioned how some people no longer have any new reactions, that they've kind of calcified. And I've seen a couple other people lament that this place is no longer fun.

If that is the case, then maybe ECH is right. Maybe some of the people here have outgrown this place. If they are no longer excited or challenged by this place, than maybe a new site is needed. ECH, you said that PD has kind of turned inside out, that rather than using our personal lives as input for mayhem and fun, we've begun treating them as the output. If I misinterpreted what you meant correct me. But if I am right and that's how you feel, then you should make a new site. Maybe it's time for you and some of the others to move on.

As for Cram's response, he's right too. You need to point out specifically what you want to see changed. I appreciate the unlimited approach of this place, but sometimes a unified directions is needed to get people off their asses.

I'm not going to bother mentioning the fluff/content thing. As you both said, it's just a distraction from the real issue; that some people aren't getting what they want from this site. If that's the case, then by all means create a new site, but make sure that you have a well defined vision of what you want it to be.

Or at least, that's what I think. 

[Scribbly]

Back when I first joined PD.com, I had just finished reading the Illuminatus Trilogy, and stumbled across the Principia Discordia. What I was primarily looking for was a vent for many of the ideas I felt coming through in those books. I wanted to find somewhere to talk about the way things should be, and perhaps find a way to work towards that bigger goal.

Later on, I got very interested in the projects flying around. The idea of the Black Iron Prison was an amazing one, and I really feel it had a major impact on the way I thought. Cain's political threads have always held the same kind of fascination for me. Not to sound like a fawning sycophant, but I've always found his take on things truly enlightening.

Trouble is, when I went to university, I found that I no longer had time to keep up. I fell behind, and it wasn't until fairly recently that I decided to peek back in and see what was going on. Again, lots of amazing projects. The Letters particularly stood out as something very inventive and very absorbing.

But, I doubt my ability to contribute at that level. PD.com often feels a step or two above where I am, and it always has. I'm not looking for somewhere to talk about my personal life- I hate sharing much of anything about myself online because, honestly, it feels weird to me. Because I don't feel that I have anything interesting to add to the discussions going on, I don't post anything at all. I just read the interesting threads, and enjoy keeping up with them.

I think part of the problem is that I've begun to honestly feel that there is nothing that can be done in real terms to change things on the broad scale I had hoped for years ago. My immediate personal environment is as comfortable as I can make it. I accept I'm very lucky in that regard, but when the immediate is as good as it can be, and the broader world we live in is- again, as far as I can see- entirely outside of my ability to effect, what do I have to talk about in line with the original goals? Not a whole heck of a lot, really.

[Nast]

A lot of times I feel awkward about posting because my talents don't lie in  things like writing compelling rants or enacting social change. The only thing I feel I can bring into this milieu is my own thoughts and impressions about my undoubtedly limited environment, which are also undoubtedly limited. I learn a lot from reading what  individuals post, here and more times than not I am left unable to provide any insight or commentary that would prove interesting. When I do post, I concede to admit, it's in the form of chatter, simply because it's the safer and more comfortable option.  

[Doktor Howl]

I wasn't very eloquent about trying to present this idea before, so instead of trying to cut through 20+ pages of idiocy to revive the first thread I started on the topic, I'm making this shiny new one. I'd really like everyone's feedback on this, provided it's thoughtful rather than some lame attempt at a snarky one-liner.

I think the problem is that for whatever reason, PD has become less a place where people trade ideas and thoughts about what's going on in the world around them, how their interactions with the world around them effect themselves and others, and how we might be able to harness and/or direct that and more about presenting everything from a personal and purely self-centered framework.

IOW, we used to bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. and apply these gripes to a larger framework or use them to build to an overarching point about something besides ourselves, now we just bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. BECAUSE of how it effects us. It's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos". The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing. I used to think that unfettered growth of this site was to be desired for its own sake, now I realize that was just ego talking for me and that really this place might be better off (in the context of it's original stated purpose) being smaller and leaner. I don't know what can be done to impose this, and I'm not certain that I should even attempt to impose anything here anymore, but I want everyone to be very clear about what my problem is, at the very least.

Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.

There are three problems:

1.  Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy.  We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell).  We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen.  We - as a group - cannot even read anymore.  We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.

2.  This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS.  Yeah, I include myself in that.  It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD".  It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread.  It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something.  It's about ME ME ME ME ME.

3.  We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun.  Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM.  Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference).  I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY.  Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.

It's really fucking simple, people.  Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.

And someone smack Enki.  No, fucking serious here.

[Doktor Howl]

A lot of times I feel awkward about posting because my talents don't lie in  things like writing compelling rants or enacting social change.

So what?  This is PD, not a writer's group.  Writing page-long rants isn't required, especially if your idea fits in a single sentence or two.

THIS IS NOT A FUCKING PRODUCTION COMPANY.  IT IS A MESSAGE BOARD FOR PEOPLE WHO SHARE AN INTEREST.  BE YOURSELF.

Unless you're Enki.