THE BACKSTORY
Christmas / New Years. Everybody's asking what you've been up to. I've been self-publishing! I show them the sexy hard copies of the Chao Te Ching.
They ask, "What's Discordianism?"
I'm asking my office building manager if I can hang a sacred chao and a golden apple from the office x-mas tree. He tells me that I can, but he wants to know what Discordianism is.
Somebody asks me why my car has a Hail Eris bumper sticker. Who's Eris, and what's that mean?
in all of these situations, I come up blank.
How can you describe something like Discordianism, in short form? We've got a "Discordianism is [sic!!] one sentence (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30195.0)" thread, but one sentence is too short.
WHAT I'M SEARCHING FOR:
A quick way to explain what Discordianism is to somebody that's never heard of it.
It must have a punchline.
Preferably it would include a way of including the listener in the group of Discordians, sort of how hearing about the pope card makes you a pope.
Here's a great example - can anybody come up with something like this?
A PRIMER FOR ERISIAN EVANGELISTS (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/72.php) by Lord Omar
"Discordianism is the philosophy that says chaos embodies every portion of human society that isn't covered by stupidity. Chaos includes both order and disorder, which is a concept many people have trouble with. While not everyone agrees that this is the best way to run a universe, most people accept it at one level or another. Including you. Welcome to our little cult (I'd stay away from the Koolaid)."
You know how you see bumper stickers that say, "Shit Happens"?
Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself, "Well, sure. But then what?"
Discordia answers that question.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 03, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
You know how you see bumper stickers that say, "Shit Happens"?
Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself, "Well, sure. But then what?"
Discordia answers that question.
Nice.
"Discordia, alone among religions, will not grant you salvation. It will, however, tell you the punch line to the cosmic shaggy dog story of which you are a part."
I was at this party the other week, hanging out with a buddy of mine. He had seen the Chao Te Ching on my facebook wall, and he really likes the Tao Te Ching you know, and so I found myself in the unfortunate position of having to "explain" Discordianism.
WELL, I said, We're a disorganized religion. Or maybe we're a joke. We reject dogma and definition. The Discordian hierarchy is reversed... the most informed people about Discordia are at the bottom. The people who have no idea what it is [the popes] are at the top. So the fact that I'm even explaining this to you means that you get Discord better than I do.
My friend said, "So the point is to stop the mind?"
and I said, "Well, yes and no... some people treat it that way, but it's hard to pin down a singular thing that it's about."
He said, "You missed it. You can't tell me what it is or isn't about, I'm the fucking POPE, MOTHERFUCKER!"
fucking BRAVO,
he got it immediately
That goes in the win column. :lulz:
EPIC.
"Have you ever gotten into an argument with someone over something you were sure you were right about, but after an hour or so of shouting, it turns out you were completely wrong about everything? Discordians feel that way ALL THE TIME."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 06:48:24 PM
"Discordianism is the philosophy that says chaos embodies every portion of human society that isn't covered by stupidity. Chaos includes both order and disorder, which is a concept many people have trouble with. While not everyone agrees that this is the best way to run a universe, most people accept it at one level or another. Including you. Welcome to our little cult (I'd stay away from the Koolaid)."
I like this. :lol: It's funny that it tells them what they think. I feel like the expected response would be that they argue against it, try to explain how they're NOT a Discordian. I wonder if there's a way to phrase it so that their triggered reaction makes them argue for something they don't actually believe. This would hit them with the double-bind, the essence of the mindfuck.
Like "Discordians (like you) enjoy getting into verbal sparring matches over semantics and identity."
then they say, "No I don't!"
Quote from: Cramulus on January 03, 2012, 06:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 06:48:24 PM
"Discordianism is the philosophy that says chaos embodies every portion of human society that isn't covered by stupidity. Chaos includes both order and disorder, which is a concept many people have trouble with. While not everyone agrees that this is the best way to run a universe, most people accept it at one level or another. Including you. Welcome to our little cult (I'd stay away from the Koolaid)."
I like this. :lol: It's funny that it tells them what they think. I feel like the expected response would be that they argue against it, try to explain how they're NOT a Discordian. I wonder if there's a way to phrase it so that their triggered reaction makes them argue for something they don't actually believe. This would hit them with the double-bind, the essence of the mindfuck.
Like "Discordians (like you) enjoy getting into verbal sparring matches over semantics and identity."
then they say, "No I don't!"
It's already there. If they claim they aren't a Discordian, then they're in the part that's run by stupidity.
Evangelism is all about framing the debate.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 07:00:59 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 03, 2012, 06:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 06:48:24 PM
"Discordianism is the philosophy that says chaos embodies every portion of human society that isn't covered by stupidity. Chaos includes both order and disorder, which is a concept many people have trouble with. While not everyone agrees that this is the best way to run a universe, most people accept it at one level or another. Including you. Welcome to our little cult (I'd stay away from the Koolaid)."
I like this. :lol: It's funny that it tells them what they think. I feel like the expected response would be that they argue against it, try to explain how they're NOT a Discordian. I wonder if there's a way to phrase it so that their triggered reaction makes them argue for something they don't actually believe. This would hit them with the double-bind, the essence of the mindfuck.
Like "Discordians (like you) enjoy getting into verbal sparring matches over semantics and identity."
then they say, "No I don't!"
It's already there. If they claim they aren't a Discordian, then they're in the part that's run by stupidity.
Evangelism is all about framing the debate.
:peedee:
:pwned:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 03, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
You know how you see bumper stickers that say, "Shit Happens"?
Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself, "Well, sure. But then what?"
Discordia answers that question.
I like this because it's kind of like a koan. It doesn't tell, it suggests. It doesn't say outright what Discordia is, it points to something outside of the conversation. It does beg for an answer though - what do you say when the person says, "....So then what?"
I wonder if there's some metaphorical story that might capture it too...
like
Five monkeys live in the world tree.
The first one is a jittery monkey - every time he gets scared, he hides. When he finds a place where he's comfortable, he'll sit there for days.
The second one is a territorial monkey, he's paranoid because he thinks the other monkeys want to steal his bananas.
The third one is the thinking monkey, he has all sorts of interesting things to say about the tree.
The fourth one is the sex monkey, if he can't find another monkey to put his dick in, he just fucks the tree.
The fifth monkey just laughs and laughs all day because the other monkeys are more entertaining than anything else in the world. He is the Discordian.
I was thinking of framing it in a conversational style, because that's the situation you're usually going to find yourself in. You're at a party, or club, or office meeting, and someone's going to ask you -- but more out of politeness or mild confusion, rather than honest curiosity.
And they're not going to stand for some riddle, or koan, or short story. It has to sound "natural".
So, when they ask, "...So then what?" you can go a little deeper.
"We think there's no such thing as order or disorder. It's just points of view, like seeing a face in the Moon, or how a cloud becomes a pony."
And then see if they take the bait.
As you may remember, I spent some time & effort a while back, writing a guide for rounding up a Cabal.
I failed to finish it, not because I was steamin' mad at someone or other (Trip, maybe?), but because I had written myself into a corner trying to set up guidelines for something that should and must be spontaneous. Needless to say, it was easier to take a wobbler I'd thrown over something totally unrelated, and use that as an excuse for backing out of a project that couldn't be finished. Ook.
However, "Witlessing" to people is an entirely different story, and the best way I can think of to do that is by posting multiple examples (Cram's above is priceless), and maybe a short set of time-proven does & don'ts.
Lemme see.
One of the basic tenets of Discordianism is that it changes depending on who's looking and how he/she looks at it. On the surface it appears to be a religion, but taking this seriously would be sacrilegious. Some people see it as just a joke (though these people are probably missing the punchline). You could easily see it as a meme or set of memes, a late 50's injoke, or a variant on zen thinking. According to Jim Garrison it's a CIA front. It's a long distance culture, a set of ideas and jokes to work from, and a rebellion against Christian thinking. Possibly the most pretentious interpretation is that it's a coherent philosophy.
All of these ways of looking at it are, in some sense, true.
"Also, we have a lot of good cooks, which should always be a consideration when choosing a religion."
that's an interesting angle, you know? I like the idea of just describing its properties instead of its aboutness.
Oh, Discordia?
We have the most fun of any religion
and our Goddess is the hottest1.
1. note: results may vary
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 11:57:32 PM
"Also, we have a lot of good cooks, which should always be a consideration when choosing a religion."
The Catholics just dip crappy bread in wine. It's horrible.
Quote from: Cramulus on January 03, 2012, 07:08:56 PMFive monkeys live in the world tree.
The first one is a jittery monkey - every time he gets scared, he hides. When he finds a place where he's comfortable, he'll sit there for days.
The second one is a territorial monkey, he's paranoid because he thinks the other monkeys want to steal his bananas.
The third one is the thinking monkey, he has all sorts of interesting things to say about the tree.
The fourth one is the sex monkey, if he can't find another monkey to put his dick in, he just fucks the tree.
The fifth monkey just laughs and laughs all day because the other monkeys are more entertaining than anything else in the world. He is the Discordian.
after going home and having a beer, re-reading this, it would be spaggy to just drop this in response to a straight question. :lol:
To be used as a starting point -
Paradox is the state of something having two or more contradictory meanings in juxtaposition.
This statement is false is paradoxical because it juxtaposes truth and falsity.
Explosives are paradoxical because they are at the same time lethal weapons, useful tools, and morally neutral globs of elementary particles.
You are paradoxical - a juxtaposition of meat, beliefs, attitudes, behaviours, relationships, and roles. "You" juxtaposes the "you" of last week with the "you" of today. "You" juxtaposes the things you say, the things you think, the things you believe, and the things you do - and all four of those are different.
The Universe is paradoxical because it is everything at the same time.
Discord is the state of being aware of and/or perplexed by a paradox in your immediate vicinity. Discord is often uncomfortable, and sometimes useful. (When and if "comfort" and "utility" are relevant is up for debate.)
Discordianism is the practice of dealing with / taking advantage of / accepting Discord. Every man, woman, child, and cabbage is a Discordian, and a Pope at that. (Paradoxically, many are unaware of this fact.) A Pope is one who possess the authority to determine what Discordianism is and how it should be done.
Congratulations, you're now aware that you're the Pope of the most important religion in your world.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on January 04, 2012, 01:49:59 AM
To be used as a starting point -
Paradox is the state of something having two or more contradictory meanings in juxtaposition.
This statement is false is paradoxical because it juxtaposes truth and falsity.
Explosives are paradoxical because they are at the same time lethal weapons, useful tools, and morally neutral globs of elementary particles.
You are paradoxical - a juxtaposition of meat, beliefs, attitudes, behaviours, relationships, and roles. "You" juxtaposes the "you" of last week with the "you" of today. "You" juxtaposes the things you say, the things you think, the things you believe, and the things you do - and all four of those are different.
The Universe is paradoxical because it is everything at the same time.
Discord is the state of being aware of and/or perplexed by a paradox in your immediate vicinity. Discord is often uncomfortable, and sometimes useful. (When and if "comfort" and "utility" are relevant is up for debate.)
Discordianism is the practice of dealing with / taking advantage of / accepting Discord. Every man, woman, child, and cabbage is a Discordian, and a Pope at that. (Paradoxically, many are unaware of this fact.) A Pope is one who possess the authority to determine what Discordianism is and how it should be done.
Congratulations, you're now aware that you're the Pope of the most important religion in your world.
Not sure how well that would go, verbally speaking.
OH, I GOT IT!
"You're the fucking pope. YOU tell ME what it is."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 11:57:32 PM
"Also, we have a lot of good cooks, which should always be a consideration when choosing a religion."
That's actually a pretty strange coincidence.
Just because we believe in Eris as a Goddess, doesn't neccessarily mean she has to be real.
Just because she is real, doesn't necessarily mean you have to believe in her.
Atheism and Discordianism don't have to be mutually exclusive, unless you want them to be.
Even if Eris isn't real, her effects on the world are. Her people don't follow her religiously, more sort of amble along where she leads, in an aimless looking meander, that looks purposeless, and shambolic, but is really well thought out, exact, and made to be misleading. Sometimes, we mislead ourselves, just for the practice. If you can't mislead yourself, then how can you expect to mislead anyone else convincingly?
Reposted from *ahem* another forum.
Lady Eris has decreed that this place is full of the type of smug, self centred, opinionated halfwits who are just crying out to be by Her Holy Presence. The Apple of Discordia is heading this way, like a great golden comet of nonsense and confusion. There will be a long overdue bursting forth of bursting things, bursting all over the place, and a tide of lulzy ridicule shall wash away the ridiculous, making way for a new paradigm of sublime nonsense. The Earth will shake with laughter as the old order slinks away to nurse it's butthurt, and the new shining order of glorious Discordian Kallisticism and spaggotry shall lift the scales from your eyes, then poke them with the pointy stick of pointlessness. So study your Principia Discordia, Study the buried nuggets of hope fuelled optimism that lie within "The Black Iron Prison" and await the icy fingers of madness in your brain that herald Her arrival. Will you be ready for Her? Will you? All Hail Discordia!
I've got a "daring to define Discordia" post which has been a txt file for a couple of weeks, from which I've been hoping to find a way to describe the thing to explain it to others. Also, because I reread the "Deconstructing Discordianism" thread and need to pin down what it is before exploring in this direction.
I'll adapt it to be a response to this thread. There will be parts that don't make sense, because I still mean to develop them.
I think that to have a summary of Discordianism to quickly explain it, you need to have some kind of long-form definition to reduce, to make sure that the summary covers all the essential points. We all seem to have an understanding of the things that are part of Discordianism and the things that are not. I feel like the answer is something similar to Camus's exploration of the things that make up but do not exhaust the absurd. I don't think that it's useful for Discordianism to totally escape description.
It means very little if someone tells me they are a Discordian. Even involved as I am with it, the most I can know is that they are familiar with a specific set of symbols and memes. If you ask ten of us to define Discordianism you'll get eleven answers.
It's a tricky thing to do though. I mean, Discordianism evades description by design as a means of preventing anyone from becoming an Authority on it. The Principia empowers each of us with the authority to define it as we please, as it tells us that
all labels are open to interpretation. Much in the same way as Eris tells us that we are free, without insisting or pushing anything onto us. It says "look, dude. You believe whatever the fuck you want, I'm just saying that I'm not responsible for any of this."
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/Paesior/LookComrade-1.png)
While it may have a reputation for deliberately undermining its own premises, extending Discordianism's self-contradiction to a total denial of meaning and incorporating this into your practical relationship with reality seems stupid to me. Surely there are ways of communicating TFYS without a complete rejection of the usefulness of language. Language is a creative application of order. I don't see the benefit of disordering our definition of Discordianism.
The way that can be spoken of is not the constant way but Discordianism is not a constant way.
Far from it, in fact. Discordianism may be the least constant way there is. That's why it's useful. It's an unstable way for an unstable world. A fickle map for a fickle territory.
I think we need some sort of
Really Real Discordianism because otherwise, fuck you, a glass of water is an oak tree. (http://www.mat.upm.es/~jcm/craig-martin--an-oak-tree.html)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/Paesior/WeAreUnicorns.png)
Once Eris has laid her hand on you, you cannot look elsewhere. There is no elsewhere. There is only Eris, and She is . . . . . . . . . . . . .playing Donkey Kong ??
I always struggle to explain it to the people who ask...
In the end I settle for a few properties depending on who i am talking to, in hope to spark up curiosity. It doesn't really go all that well in most cases.
Can we really nail water to the wall?
1) is it really a religion? i wouldn't call it one. too many symbols have been attached to that word. instead i'd call it a frame of mind for the neophile. "if you like to do new things, explore new thoughts and experiences, then this might be for you" usually it doesn't take long to find out if the person you just met is neophile or neophobe .
2) is there belief? yes, but as a tool of the mind.
personally: if i feel like having a deity in my life, why an old geezer? screw that, i will go with crazy hotness coupled with what keeps us alive on this planet: the big fucking ball of fire in the sky. i end that sentence with a smiling RA! (semi-shouted with a dash of thunder in the voice).
3) since eris is chaos and chaos is where everything starts, all other gods are just aspects of her. so everyone who believes in one god or another is already worshiping eris, albeit indirectly. there was a great thread on this over at MW. maybe we can distill some of that into a short form?
4) confusion is a desireable state of mind. for in a state of confusion it's obvious your usual thought patterns don't work. otherwise you wouldn't be confused. it's the starting point for any new thought, otherwise the confusion will never end. Discordians tend to embrace confusion instead of fighting it.
5) we're a bunch of freaks. and we love to have fun. life's too short to not have as much fun as possible. eris loves fun too.
Quote from: http://www.impropaganda.net/1997/zenarchy4.html
Having nothing to do with hierarchies, mundane or spiritual, we are not out to prove anything - except that status is nonsense, as when we lightly bestow lofty titles on one another and ordain each other Zenarchs. Our purpose is, rather, to understand ourselves, our whole beings, and to "remember" something so simple that it tends to elude classification and satisfactory definition.
I seem find a lot of useful bits in Thornley's text about games. But I gotta put on my blue pants now and get some work done at the harbour.
~Planeswalker
drinking his morning coffee and taking this into the day for further pondering
It's a fictional religion started in the 1950s as a joke that got way the hell out of control and implanted itself into our reality. It has no meaningful definition, no hierarchy, and no membership. It's about accepting the fact that the world is a chaotic, nonsensical place and making your own happiness within that, or it's about the forces of destructive order battling the forces of creative disorder, or it's about how we are able to perceive the universe; or it's just a bunch of stuff scribbled in the margins. Also, you're a Pope. Good luck with that.