PICS VIII: 10% LARGER THAN PICS VII

[axod]

[Cain]

i was convinced until i remembered that the word rape used to mean violent theft...
and that she seems to have translated a Latin word, and not a Greek one...
and that Google translate is probably not the best tool for comparatively analyzing ancient texts in any case..

Yup.  "The Rape of Persephone" refers to her abduction, not a rape in the sense we understand it.  You can still see this historical use of rape when referred to, for example, cities being sacked during wartime, but it's very antiquated and most people aren't even aware of the distinction.  Besides, the kidnap is also a metaphor.  C'mon now, King of the Dead takes the offspring of the Earth Mother by force?  Yeah, that's not obviously referring to something else at all.

Apparently though, pointing this out is: "literally used the argument that it isn't rape because society at the time didn't believe that women could be fully autonomous people and instead were property of their fathers to be given away when asked nicely. That is fucked up. You've also used the argument that someone staying with their abuser and making the best of it negates the abuse."

Well, yeah, it would be, except Persphone doesn't exist.  Also, not all Greek culture was the same.  Athens and Macedonia had vastly different views on women, much like, say, Saudi Arabia and Israel today.

Also, I have to disagree with this point made by the critic:

used that to castigate and demean not only the people who actually take their limited time to create gorgeous art but also to denigrate modern day worshippers of Persephone and Hades?

No, modern day worshippers of Hades and Persephone deserve to be castigated and demeaned as fuck.  Nothing is more embarrassing than Hellenic Reconstructionists.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I don't think saying "they're fictional characters" is really an answer to anything, since the point is to interpret the content of the story and not its historical veracity. And I think the first poster has a good point because the bulk of the criticism is towards how modern people are interpreting and adopting the myth, not how its original audience would have understood it. The myth as it has been passed down to us is pretty rapey. At the very least it features a female protagonist who gets to make no choices whatsoever about her fate, and while her actions affect the story she's not doing so intentionally, she's just hungry. For a modern couple to romanticize that does seem a little fucked.

[Cain]

OK, point me to the people who are saying that Hades' kidnap of Persephone is true love.

Meanwhile, we have actual literal topselling books being made into films which glorify rape and spousal abuse.

[LMNO]

Why the hell do I let myself google these things?

http://www.bing.com/search?q=hades+and+persephone+love+story&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC

[MMIX]

Why the hell do I let myself google these things?

http://www.bing.com/search?q=hades+and+persephone+love+story&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC

just "because"

"Because I love you, Persephone, I love you very dearly!" Persephone smiled. "Then I consent to being abducted." ... Thus ends the story of Persephone and Hades.

also 
I'll see your hearts and flowers and raise you an "erotic romances based on Greek Mythology"
http://kata-chthonia.tumblr.com/post/83583364083/coloricioso-happy-earth-day-this-is-absolutely

[LMNO]

[Doktor Howl]

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Regarding the Hades/Persephone story, we can probably shed some light on it by looking at its heritage (by which I mean the story of Ishtar in the underworld, which is substantially the same and predates it by a few thousand years).

Within this story, Inana quests into the land of the dead of her own accord to ask Ereshkigal, the lord of the dead, a favor. At this point she is already married to Dumuzid (who is a useless asshole person, and was actually a human -- no idea why she married him, because they don't really get along). Before she leaves, she gives instructions to a servant to tell all the major gods her plan, and to ensure that she can be brought back to life. (All of the gods ignore her request except Enki, despite the servant literally cutting herself in public to prove that she's serious.) The lord of the underworld strips her of her clothing and hangs her on a hook, but she was sort of expecting that kind of behavior, and avoids eating despite being down there for three days. Enki sends a couple servants down to give her a rejuvination potion. She then escapes (it's ambiguous whether or not she takes the rejuvenation potion; probably not), tearing demons from her flesh that are snatching at her, and when she finally arrives in the world of the living, the demons snatch her no-good husband (who was just hanging around where she happened to appear) and take him to the underworld instead. (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm)

In other words, the agency that's completely dominant in Inana's story is completely absent in Persephone's. Even if Persephone was not raped, it's still a major regression -- and it's in line with the lower position of women in Greek society.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hell  yes.

[Doktor Howl]

This is exactly the behavior of my own dog.

[minuspace]

Regarding the Hades/Persephone story, we can probably shed some light on it by looking at its heritage (by which I mean the story of Ishtar in the underworld, which is substantially the same and predates it by a few thousand years).

Within this story, Inana quests into the land of the dead of her own accord to ask Ereshkigal, the lord of the dead, a favor. At this point she is already married to Dumuzid (who is a useless asshole person, and was actually a human -- no idea why she married him, because they don't really get along). Before she leaves, she gives instructions to a servant to tell all the major gods her plan, and to ensure that she can be brought back to life. (All of the gods ignore her request except Enki, despite the servant literally cutting herself in public to prove that she's serious.) The lord of the underworld strips her of her clothing and hangs her on a hook, but she was sort of expecting that kind of behavior, and avoids eating despite being down there for three days. Enki sends a couple servants down to give her a rejuvination potion. She then escapes (it's ambiguous whether or not she takes the rejuvenation potion; probably not), tearing demons from her flesh that are snatching at her, and when she finally arrives in the world of the living, the demons snatch her no-good husband (who was just hanging around where she happened to appear) and take him to the underworld instead. (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm)

In other words, the agency that's completely dominant in Inana's story is completely absent in Persephone's. Even if Persephone was not raped, it's still a major regression -- and it's in line with the lower position of women in Greek society.

Now, to be fair, it is my understanding that Ancient Greek society was not know to overestimate the importance of personal agency.  Additionally, this subjugation of agency is not particular to gender.  The upshot seems to be some commentary on the relationship between will and freedom, as indicated by your interpolation via Inana.  I think perhaps there is a tradition of conflating agency with what we think of as freedom because we simply are getting our way.

A classic example would be to question if an addict is free if by exercising his freedom to obtain something he only reinforces his dependance.  In the end, agency is just like karma, or any response from a conditioned source:  a tie that binds without loosing.

[Junkenstein]

Hell  yes.

Big words.

[rong]

Hell  yes.

Big words.

How do we go about finding this man?  I would very much like to buy him a beer

[Da6s]