Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Horrorology => Topic started by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:42:43 PM

Title: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:42:43 PM
Well, not SO secret, just that nobody pays attention to it.

Many Americans know that the founding fathers were mostly Deists.  A Deist is one who believes in "God as watchmaker"...IE, God set the universe up, and let it run without further interference.

So it's obviously no surprise that the founders set our government up the same way (With the notable exceptions of Patrick Henry and Alexander Hamilton, who objected for very different reasons.).  In fact, given article V, it's even arguable that they set up a social program, designed to make the citizens of the union more free and more happy as time went on.

And it worked.  Slavery was abolished (though not without cost), women got the right to vote, the average life of the common man became better and better, for about 190 years.

Problem is, the program was based on a model, and the model was - as all models are - flawed to some degree.  This caused errors to appear, errors which grew with every iteration (or generation, in this case), until the system began to break down. 

For example, World War I was predictable at the time of the founding, and was probably taken into account.  World War II, on the other hand, was an error caused by errors made in 1918, and probably couldn't have been imagined by the founders.  Recessions were undoubtably taken into account.  The dustbowl and the depression, probably not so much.

We've now been cycling monstrous errors for 60 years, and the effects became noticeable about 40 years ago, serious 30 years ago, and untenable 10 years ago.  We exist in a broken Machine in a horrible reality that Machine built for us, not out of malice, but out of bad data...Small errors magnified over decades, until there are a million small problems, and a few huge ones, that the system simply can't cope with anymore. 

You can't really fix it, or hit the "reset button", as the Ron Paul crowd would like to do, because you can't change the past, and you can't make history go away without creating a worse monster than you started with.

The idea of "E-Democracy" won't help, either, because changing the controls on a broken machine doesn't fix the machine, it just adds further complexity and makes the problems worse.

If allowed to continue, the end result will be either an autocracy or an oligarchy (something guaranteed by Ron Paul's ideas, and those of the "E-Democracy" crowd, incidentally).  The founders probably knew this would eventually happen...They were nothing if not students of history.

You have to wonder if they saw this coming, and wondered if we'd be smart enough when the time came to develop something completely different, a new social program that would be able to carry on where theirs finally failed. 

And, well, if not, we had 220 years.  Not a bad run.

Okay for now,
Dok
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Sadly, I agree with you.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Sadly, I agree with you.

Why is what I wrote sad?  It's not an epitaph unless you/we want it to be.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 03:52:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Sadly, I agree with you.

Why is what I wrote sad?  It's not an epitaph unless you/we want it to be.

You don't think it's too late to fix it? If our system collapses I can see a repeat of the former Soviet Union. There will be many states who will remain independent and refuse to join a new union.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 03:59:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:52:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Sadly, I agree with you.

Why is what I wrote sad?  It's not an epitaph unless you/we want it to be.

You don't think it's too late to fix it? If our system collapses I can see a repeat of the former Soviet Union. There will be many states who will remain independent and refuse to join a new union.

That's not such a terrible thing, or at least I don't see it being a terrible thing.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:52:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Sadly, I agree with you.

Why is what I wrote sad?  It's not an epitaph unless you/we want it to be.

You don't think it's too late to fix it? If our system collapses I can see a repeat of the former Soviet Union. There will be many states who will remain independent and refuse to join a new union.

1.  It's too late to fix it. 

2.  And so?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:05:27 PM
Have you thought this out and did I stumble on to the point that quickly?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:06:27 PM
I'm just puzzled.  Did you read the second half of my essay?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:06:27 PM
I'm just puzzled.  Did you read the second half of my essay?

Yes I did. Did I miss something, again?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:11:30 PM
I guess I have no faith that we will do anything about it.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 27, 2010, 04:12:16 PM
I see a problem like this, and I get caught up in it almost by default.  Can't be helped, I am, as one good ol' italian fellow I knew in college dubbed me, a fixer.  

I don't have a good elegant fix for it, either.  I have an idea of running through the pages of laws, regulations and policies with a rubber stamp. "BULLSHIT: REMOVE"  This is falling into the trap of trying to fix the machine though, a labor of the Gordian sort, with a case of Sisiphus of undiagnosed serverity.  Given the rate at which the BS perpetuates and multiplies, the elected rabid STD host monkies hammer away at their typewriters banging down drugs with booze when they're not outright shitting everywhere.  At what point did we sign our overarching servies to these mangy creatures?  We did it because it was easy, because we didn't want to worry.  

There had been an earning, and entitlement, a decision that it would be OK to expect everything the dream of America promised, sit behind out picket fence pallisades and expect everything to go on OK outside of us.  We grew fat and big and forgot what "Community" was, though we're rediscovering "Tribe" in a REAL hurry.  

Fire?  Better call someone and expect them to stop it.  It's THEIR job.
Bleeding out?  Phone the lazy ambulance fuckers.  Weren't they wathcing your webcam stream?
Robbed?  Clear out, let the robbers have their way, and wait for the police to show up and stop them.  You are not allowed to defend your self or your property.  Jump in and YOU are LIABLE if any of it goes wrong.  We do have to protect everyone form overzealous amateur participation.

How do you untangle that kind of self-  fucking logic?  Alexander the Great knew how to cut through bullshit.  He may have jsut been a frag - happy frat boy who was good with horses, but the example: fuck the minutia, go out an accomplish SOMETHING: it's one that works.  Can we cut our mess of a system apart and go on?  

Primarily, there's this sneering hipster, teenage angst concept of the "system".  There is no "system", (that's my runnign slash with Occam's razor for the day).  Assuming their is any centralized intention behind it all dedicated to (apparently) inconveniencing, frustrating, monitoring, and driving you into slavedom is a delusion of your own self importance.  Saying there is a "system" doing anything like this is like accusing space aliens of fuckign with the fabric of the unvierse to give us all cancer with Hawkian Radiation.  It's a side effect, a leaking, a sidestream of every little injustice, inconsistency and bureaocratic trip - up in interacting with anythign bigger than a 7 person small business.  In short; you're delusion of persecution is backed and powered by the sinister fuck of idiot human nature.  

Feel cold yet?   (more to come.)

     
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:19:44 PM
Waiting for the rest...
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:23:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:19:44 PM
Waiting for the rest...

Me too.

This thread has my head reeling.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: The Wizard on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:32:20 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on July 27, 2010, 04:38:30 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.

QuoteThere is no "system"
^
l
that
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 27, 2010, 04:41:43 PM
Thinking back for a second to our founding Deists.  "Sure, there was a watchmaker, but it's up to us to tuen it up a bit."  Not "I better hire a watchmaker." or, "I better contact the central watch maintenance authority witha  bug report."  We are all of us looking at this metaphorical watch constantly.  Thought these days it seems like more than just a watch.  It was a simple pocketwatch at first.  The kind even a local craftsman could afford, and it did the basic stuff simple.  Then we added to it, and it worked all right still, but it was getting big.  We had a few crazy outings, but it held up.  Some folks decided that they could fuck around with the mechanism a few times, steal a little money off of each turn of the spring, and almost crashed the works, so prevention, regulations and failsafes were built in.  This happened a LOT.  Seems like sometimes every concern a few people could give voice to would get another part peice or function added on.  

I don't think it's a watch anymore.  It's a huge fuckign emchanical spider now.  Too big to take off for parties with guns and ammo anymore, but there are these huge goddamn legs, brislted and hgairly withe fighter jets tanks and ordnance that we plop down anywhere we want to send the boys to play.  In fact, it's not even standing with too many legs on the country that supposedly built it anymore.  It's busy supporting itself off other lands, proping up or squashing as it teeters.  There's jsut the body proped up over us now.  Eyes, spinarettes, and horrible fuckign fangs.  It spins down campign signs and slogan, news, internet, and shiny new apple products.  The eyes watch every form of radiation of vibration we make and detect, and several we don't.  the fangs ares resplendent with bright black clube, dripping with mace and jackboots, crackling like a fucking thudnerstorm of a tazer.  Look close; it's all printing presses and typewrtiers, cotton gins, dot matrix printers, and (finagle take it all!) a few old looms still spinning the mummified scalps of their mutilated opperators.  

Anything we ever did when we thought it wasn't our concern or problem is up there.  Too big to fail, or too big to crush us without killing us all?  Haha!  Remember how the "Crystal ball effect" seemed optimistic?

(Hork cough spit coffee)
Okay
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:46:44 PM
Holy Fuck, Richter.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

I have a number of ideas, but most of them would be unacceptable to most Americans, as they involve breaking the country up into smaller entities.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

I have a number of ideas, but most of them would be unacceptable to most Americans, as they involve breaking the country up into smaller entities.

Since your OP this is seeming like a very good idea more and more.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: The Wizard on July 27, 2010, 04:51:57 PM
QuoteI have a number of ideas, but most of them would be unacceptable to most Americans, as they involve breaking the country up into smaller entities.

I've had similar thoughts.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on July 27, 2010, 04:55:53 PM
Honestly, as big as this land mass is, and as shaky as the whole thing has become, I'm surprised we've lasted as long as we have.
Don't most hastily thrown together giant land mass countries fall apart right around.. 50 years ago?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

I have a number of ideas, but most of them would be unacceptable to most Americans, as they involve breaking the country up into smaller entities.

I for one am interested in reading some of your ideas.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 04:58:59 PM
Quote from: Turdley Burgleson on July 27, 2010, 04:55:53 PM
Honestly, as big as this land mass is, and as shaky as the whole thing has become, I'm surprised we've lasted as long as we have.
Don't most hastily thrown together giant land mass countries fall apart right around.. 50 years ago?
I can't wait. Just need to get going on my target practice and maybe learn how to fix diesel engines. Get some skeels besides being robbable by bikers. Because skill is the only kind of insurance I'd trust for myself when it comes time to "tribe up".
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 04:59:55 PM
Unless this is an exercise in each of us using our own brains.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:04:24 PM
Also, Richter owns this here thread now.   :lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:08:13 PM
Quote from: Turdley Burgleson on July 27, 2010, 04:55:53 PM
Honestly, as big as this land mass is, and as shaky as the whole thing has become, I'm surprised we've lasted as long as we have.
Don't most hastily thrown together giant land mass countries fall apart right around.. 50 years ago?

Yeah.  The fun part is, more and more states are talking secession.  They don't really WANT to go, of course, they would miss the giant phallus empire that is America™, but they really have trouble with a Black dude being president (Tennessee, for example, has joined Texas in "threatening" to leave).

Simple solution:  Throw out every deadbeat state that takes in more tax money than it ships out, plus Texas (Because, well, they're Texas).  Let them form whatever unions they please.

Obviously, this will include my state, but we have plans for that eventuality, and that doesn't include staying in the same political entity as Phoenix.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 04:32:20 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.

I was thinking of 4-6 countries with no common bonds save suspicion.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:11:02 PM
Ok, here is the way I see it. If someone approached the Federal Government with this idea it would result in a room full of screaming monkies and a one way ticket to Gitmo.

So with this premise lest us cede the fact that the Federal Government will fail. Chaos will be immediate but individual states will scramble to maintain some kind of order. Everyone will be concerned with their own space and minimizing damage.

Once the dust settles some I can see less populated and some of the smaller states wanting to combine. Hawaii will forget we ever existed in under a minute. Same with Puerto Rico and possibly Alaska.

The existing governors will become ad hoc presidents. Then I suspect these new presidents will all want to meet and hammer out some details.

Now I will spend some time on trying to work out details.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:04:24 PM
Also, Richter owns this here thread now.   :lulz:

That piece he wrote is Classic and needs to be put everywhere!
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:18:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:11:02 PM
Ok, here is the way I see it. If someone approached the Federal Government with this idea it would result in a room full of screaming monkies and a one way ticket to Gitmo.

So with this premise lest us cede the fact that the Federal Government will fail. Chaos will be immediate but individual states will scramble to maintain some kind of order. Everyone will be concerned with their own space and minimizing damage.

Once the dust settles some I can see less populated and some of the smaller states wanting to combine. Hawaii will forget we ever existed in under a minute. Same with Puerto Rico and possibly Alaska.

The existing governors will become ad hoc presidents. Then I suspect these new presidents will all want to meet and hammer out some details.

Now I will spend some time on trying to work out details.

Okay, guys, I really hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but it's "monkeys".

And I think the failure of the system WILL be multiple secessions.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:19:56 PM
Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:20:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:18:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:11:02 PM
Ok, here is the way I see it. If someone approached the Federal Government with this idea it would result in a room full of screaming monkies and a one way ticket to Gitmo.

So with this premise lest us cede the fact that the Federal Government will fail. Chaos will be immediate but individual states will scramble to maintain some kind of order. Everyone will be concerned with their own space and minimizing damage.

Once the dust settles some I can see less populated and some of the smaller states wanting to combine. Hawaii will forget we ever existed in under a minute. Same with Puerto Rico and possibly Alaska.

The existing governors will become ad hoc presidents. Then I suspect these new presidents will all want to meet and hammer out some details.

Now I will spend some time on trying to work out details.

Okay, guys, I really hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but it's "monkeys".

And I think the failure of the system WILL be multiple secessions.

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:25:04 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:19:56 PM
Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.


Individuals rioting will not end the state.  There will be no revolution.  A civil war or three, maybe, but probably not.  The union will break into several fragments, and each will claim to be the "REAL" United states, and each will attempt to build their very own Spider.  They won't be able to afford it, of course, especially if they're kept busy giving each other the stink eye.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:28:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:25:04 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:19:56 PM
Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.


Individuals rioting will not end the state.  There will be no revolution.  A civil war or three, maybe, but probably not.  The union will break into several fragments, and each will claim to be the "REAL" United states, and each will attempt to build their very own Spider.  They won't be able to afford it, of course, especially if they're kept busy giving each other the stink eye.

Russell Means would die from excessive laughter.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:20:56 PM

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:20:56 PM

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?

China, we do owe them a couple of dollars.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:32:49 PM
Also Colorado and California would end up in a war over water.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 05:20:56 PM

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?

China, we do owe them a couple of dollars.

So let them collect.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:35:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 04:32:20 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.

I was thinking of 4-6 countries with no common bonds save suspicion.

The current European union is a decent model, I'm thinking.  The current USA shares a lot of the same characteristics, jsut the state system has buffered the regional realities and idealistic differences from shaking things apart too much.  The problems with trying to balance regional authority with overarching Federal power has become apparent, especially in trying to churn out laws, programs, or doctrine which applies well (not to mention EVENLY or fAIRLY) to the whole range of regional and occupational realities.  
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:37:26 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:35:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 04:32:20 PM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 27, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

QuoteWaiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.

I was thinking of 4-6 countries with no common bonds save suspicion.

The current European union is a decent model, I'm thinking.  The current USA shares a lot of the same characteristics, jsut the state system has buffered the regional realities and idealistic differences from shaking things apart too much.  The problems with trying to balance regional authority with overarching Federal power has become apparent, especially in trying to churn out laws, programs, or doctrine which applies well (not to mention EVENLY or fAIRLY) to the whole range of regional and occupational realities.  

Yep.  What's funny is that the EU originally started out trying to build a superstate, and we're about to have our superstate collapse.

Our problem is complexity.  The easiest way to get rid of complexity is to reduce the size of the organization.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:41:04 PM

More itterations of the attempt over smaller spiders, more chances to get it working more better.
More chances for someone to start the megachurch nation of god too. (turn around, drop trou, grab ankles, scuffle you butt to the communion rail for preacher.)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:43:09 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 05:41:04 PM

More itterations of the attempt over smaller spiders, more chances to get it working more better.
More chances for someone to start the megachurch nation of god too. (turn around, drop trou, grab ankles, scuffle you butt to the communion rail for preacher.)
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Yeah, but OUR job, as proper Discordians, would be to keep them a little too busy to start their Spiders.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 05:45:19 PM
I'm curious. is this thread just a mental excersize, or is it going to lead to ideas about how to speed up the process of this demise?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:48:35 PM
I can see in some states where the big corporations would have immediate major influence IF there was an immediate monetary currency solution.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 05:51:19 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:45:19 PM
I'm curious. is this thread just a mental excersize, or is it going to lead to ideas about how to speed up the process of this demise?


Sorry, I am too busy putting a years worth of food and water.  :lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:45:19 PM
I'm curious. is this thread just a mental excersize, or is it going to lead to ideas about how to speed up the process of this demise?

Neither.  It's just documentation of facts.  A study in Horror™, if you will.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?

LARPing, unless I miss my guess.  In any case, the best a professor could do at this point is tell you how to avoid the horrible riots and mayhem that will accompany the above bloodless-sounding activities.

I mean, we Doktors could do that, too, but it would be wrong.  Unprofessional.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?

LARPing, unless I miss my guess.  In any case, the best a professor could do at this point is tell you how to avoid the horrible riots and mayhem that will accompany the above bloodless-sounding activities.

I mean, we Doktors could do that, too, but it would be wrong.  Unprofessional.

That's not what I want to hear. I want to hear about how I can hurry this shit up so that things can maybe start to get better possibly. Or something...
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:10:37 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?

LARPing, unless I miss my guess.  In any case, the best a professor could do at this point is tell you how to avoid the horrible riots and mayhem that will accompany the above bloodless-sounding activities.

I mean, we Doktors could do that, too, but it would be wrong.  Unprofessional.

That's not what I want to hear. I want to hear about how I can hurry this shit up so that things can maybe start to get better possibly. Or something...

I bet you skip to the last page of a mystery novel before reading it, right?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 06:11:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?

LARPing, unless I miss my guess.  In any case, the best a professor could do at this point is tell you how to avoid the horrible riots and mayhem that will accompany the above bloodless-sounding activities.

I mean, we Doktors could do that, too, but it would be wrong.  Unprofessional.

:lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 06:14:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:10:37 PM
I bet you skip to the last page of a mystery novel before reading it, right?

How did you guess? ;)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen internationally if the US split up into 6 pieces.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 06:19:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen internationally if the US split up into 6 pieces.



I would expect UN "peacekeeping" forces on our shores in 10 minutes.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2010, 06:20:00 PM
"Aim for the blue helmets!"
  \
:chickenhawk:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:20:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:19:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen internationally if the US split up into 6 pieces.



I would expect UN "peacekeeping" forces on our shores in 10 minutes.

Paid for by whom?   :lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2010, 06:20:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:19:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen internationally if the US split up into 6 pieces.



I would expect UN "peacekeeping" forces on our shores in 10 minutes.

I'm pretty sure they'd leave us to wallow and bow ourselves up until the dust settled, and then come scavenge. It's what i'd do, if it were someone I hated.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 06:21:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:20:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:19:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen internationally if the US split up into 6 pieces.



I would expect UN "peacekeeping" forces on our shores in 10 minutes.

Paid for by whom?   :lulz:

Point.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.

The border fence would be moved to the NORTH Texas border.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:28:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.

The border fence would be moved to the NORTH Texas border.
The wastes will mold the remaining Texans and assorted Westerners into powerful warriors, who will then invade the rest of the country Cimmerian-style.

But say the US separated again, wouldn't the areas with more militaristic, survivalist mindsets wind up gaining dominance by virtue of their raw dickery?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:28:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.

The border fence would be moved to the NORTH Texas border.
The wastes will mold the remaining Texans and assorted Westerners into powerful warriors, who will then invade the rest of the country Cimmerian-style.

But say the US separated again, wouldn't the areas with more militaristic, survivalist mindsets wind up gaining dominance by virtue of their raw dickery?

Never been to Texas?  They're a pack of pussies there, mostly, who rest on the laurels of Sam Houston and a bunch of other slaving scum from 170+ years ago.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 27, 2010, 06:31:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:28:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.

The border fence would be moved to the NORTH Texas border.
The wastes will mold the remaining Texans and assorted Westerners into powerful warriors, who will then invade the rest of the country Cimmerian-style.

But say the US separated again, wouldn't the areas with more militaristic, survivalist mindsets wind up gaining dominance by virtue of their raw dickery?

Never been to Texas?  They're a pack of pussies there, mostly, who rest on the laurels of Sam Houston and a bunch of other slaving scum from 170+ years ago.

They LINE DANCE for fucks sake!
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:31:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:28:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 27, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 27, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
The new immigration rules would be a hoot, too.

The border fence would be moved to the NORTH Texas border.
The wastes will mold the remaining Texans and assorted Westerners into powerful warriors, who will then invade the rest of the country Cimmerian-style.

But say the US separated again, wouldn't the areas with more militaristic, survivalist mindsets wind up gaining dominance by virtue of their raw dickery?

Never been to Texas?  They're a pack of pussies there, mostly, who rest on the laurels of Sam Houston and a bunch of other slaving scum from 170+ years ago.

They LINE DANCE for fucks sake!
I suppose you're right. Farthest west I've ever been is San Antonio.

Though I did qualify, the remaining Texans. What you said makes sense, too - I know plenty of coddled old money folks from Houston, many of whom wouldn't last ten minutes in a cartel boss's distribution plant.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:43:50 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 27, 2010, 06:36:52 PM

Though I did qualify, the remaining Texans.

Oh, we'll just keep them in the same drawer as the remaining conservatives and all the classic liberals we have left.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 27, 2010, 07:57:37 PM
Oddly I agree with Doc on almost everything he stated... including the "solution".

The only bit I disagree with is the plan of the people that started this mess.

What I've read from letters between the players, from their essays and rants and trolling... is that they didn't expect this thing to last for 200 years, at least not without major overhauls. Hell, at least some of them didn't expect the Constitution to be enshrined, they expected it to be thrown out once someone had a better one put together. The Constitution, as it was, was considered the "Well, we got to have something" kind of solution.

That is, they kludged the whole country together, with the idea that Free people, a government run by the people would come up with a better solution. What they didn't count on was Belief, Dogma and the tendency for humans to think something is The Best notwithstanding evidence to the contrary. Look at how Americans fawn over the Constitution as though its the most perfect document in history, or how many 'patriots' think the word means loudly screaming that this IS THE BEST country and anyone who disagrees can go sit on nails... or how our Constitutional Scholars spend ages agonizing of a phrase of the hastily written document (full of compromises and bits to fix later) to determine what the founder's INTENT was.

Their intent was to get King George and his Red Coat wearing stooges off their new Republic... the document was just one brick in the foundation...

I think sometimes we believe too strongly that those poor sods knew what they were getting into. I don't think they would have predicted the strength of the federal government, the civil war, the abuse of power going completely unchecked by the masses... I mean hell, some of those guys presumed that you needed a good war every few decades just to keep shit interesting. I think it would stun them to see the centuries of Americans sitting on their asses while the government slowly took over their lives and choices.

However, thats all in the past and Dok was writing about now and the future... and I have to agree with him, the only future I foresee is one where states break away either by the collapse of the federal government or through secession. The sad part is, I doubt any of them will have even half the clue that the "founding fathers" had. Those guys were smart, well educated people for their time, they read books and studied history... look at the people who are 'leading the charge' right now... how many of them have actually read serious political philosophy books or studied the errors of past governments? Now, how many of them are ideologically driven nuts, focused on bringing about THEIR VISION of the US, based on bad coffee and hate?

Its gonna be ugly.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 07:59:09 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 27, 2010, 07:57:37 PM

Their intent was to get King George and his Red Coat wearing stooges off their new Republic... the document was just one brick in the foundation...

Perhaps you are conflating the constitution with the articles of confederation.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 27, 2010, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 07:59:09 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 27, 2010, 07:57:37 PM

Their intent was to get King George and his Red Coat wearing stooges off their new Republic... the document was just one brick in the foundation...

Perhaps you are conflating the constitution with the articles of confederation.

Gah! You are correct :)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 27, 2010, 08:10:03 PM
I was going to include a bit about the Articles and the later modification of those into the Constitution... but apparently it got lost... and now I'm stuck in a phone conference... more in a bit :)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Remington on July 27, 2010, 08:28:19 PM
Dok and Richter are awesome. I could totally see this happening, and I agree that it might be a good thing. Multiple secessions could happen in Canada as well: If anything we've got more divisions and differences than the States. The only thing keeping us together is the fact that Canadians are in general quite laid-back, and that we don't quite have the same amount of national stress as the Americans do.

Tim Hortons is actually one of the major societal forces maintaining the status quo up North. No joke.


Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on July 27, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Oh. I see.

We Doktors don't meddle in the affairs of monkeys.  We simply observe, record, and giggle like schoolgirls.

That would be Professor territory, wouldn't it? Where are they when we need them?
*Waves while taking notes
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Telarus on July 28, 2010, 02:29:27 AM
Thanks for the link in the What is the Machine thread, Dok!
This post is mostly so I can find this later and read through from page1.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 02:46:10 AM
...anybody check out Nebraska lately?

yeah.

The "new wave" of Amurrica.  It's so...cozy.  And whitewashed.  Though it seems the news outlets find the most shit-kickin'est of the redneck-sounding (read: Southern accent) proponents of the state-sovereignty-saving measures (quote-unquote) they can.  Not that there ISN'T correlation with that causation, or vice versa rather...it's just...a very interesting can of worms the local Republicans are going to have if they refuse to adhere to the "Latinos are the Irish of the 21st century" factoids...
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 02:46:41 AM
Um, whoops, and MAD PROPS to Dok and Richter on this thread.  :mittens: x 10000000000
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 28, 2010, 08:01:47 AM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 02:46:41 AM
Um, whoops, and MAD PROPS to Dok and Richter on this thread.  :mittens: x 10000000000

Yes.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: eighteen buddha strike on July 28, 2010, 09:33:24 AM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 02:46:10 AM
...anybody check out Nebraska lately?

yeah.

I think the bit of insanity you're referencing is limited to Fremont, which prior to their hardline stance against illegal immigration, were only notable for the very noticeable smell of manure that permeates that district. What it really was, was a political grab for attention, which worked. Whether or not that attention is beneficial to them remains to be seen, I sure as hell fucking hope not. Depends on how the various lawsuits work out. AS long as there as an eye pointed at my home state, I might point out that our state senator Ben Nelson voted yes on to Obamas health care bill, conditionally, the condition being that ALL of our states medicaid is paid for out of the national budget... which AFIK is something which is completely unique to this one state.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on July 28, 2010, 01:49:21 PM
Props to Dok and Richter.

As far as who would become dominant in international affairs, it would naturally fall to Britain, China and Russia. As far as regional powers go, I would actually expect it to be something like the area that was the Confederacy, as well as the Northeast. Reason being is that I'm under the impression that a greater portion of the survivalists, etc are located in the South, which also has a large enough population to support a large army. Though, they'll find out real fast the value of taxes. The Northeast would maintain its reputation for culture and universities, as well as provide a minor economic power. However, it would probably have to absorb a good portion of the Midwest to keep food costs down, though Pennsylvania might be able to support the bulk of food consumption. I don't expect much from California, other than the fact that it would probably break up itself.

Canada would likely become the main economic power, if it is able to hold together itself, per Remington's assessment.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Richter on July 28, 2010, 01:58:28 PM
Thanks all, I sort of went off on that.

Twid:  Agreed.  The northeast would almost be obligated to import food and possibly water with all the pollution from the industrial revolution onwards.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 28, 2010, 06:25:50 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

As a Doktor my advise is to point and laugh.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

One thing that history has taught ME, Kai, is that things have always had the same "hell in a handbasket" way about them...it's just that society sometimes has a wishful/hopeful thinking quality that seems blind to the so-called reality of things.  Trick is to keep in mind the horrific nature of the universe and accept all of it whole cloth, do as you will, and still enjoy the ride.  Somehow.

And mad props if you can help others to do the same.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:38:37 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

One thing that history has taught ME, Kai, is that things have always had the same "hell in a handbasket" way about them...it's just that society sometimes has a wishful/hopeful thinking quality that seems blind to the so-called reality of things.  Trick is to keep in mind the horrific nature of the universe and accept all of it whole cloth, do as you will, and still enjoy the ride.  Somehow.

And mad props if you can help others to do the same.

Well, see, I don't find the universe horrific. I don't even find nature horrific. I just find the human capacity for irrationality contrasted with the equal capacity for rationality to be horrific. Sagan was right when he said this is "the planet of the idiots"; we have the full capacity, the neurological equiptment, to act in our best interests, form anticipation-maps of reality based upon actual evidence, and other rational qualities. I can live with the realization that the universe could send an asteroid down to the planet at any moment, because I know the universe isn't conscious, doesn't have the capacity to care either way. There's no intent involved. But humans DO, but we DON'T. That's the helpless part. I can work and improve myself to a high level of awareness and rationality, but I can't do one iota to improve any other person. That humans have doomed themselves despite this "great soaring passionate intelligence", that's the scary part.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:38:37 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

One thing that history has taught ME, Kai, is that things have always had the same "hell in a handbasket" way about them...it's just that society sometimes has a wishful/hopeful thinking quality that seems blind to the so-called reality of things.  Trick is to keep in mind the horrific nature of the universe and accept all of it whole cloth, do as you will, and still enjoy the ride.  Somehow.

And mad props if you can help others to do the same.

Well, see, I don't find the universe horrific. I don't even find nature horrific. I just find the human capacity for irrationality contrasted with the equal capacity for rationality to be horrific. Sagan was right when he said this is "the planet of the idiots"; we have the full capacity, the neurological equiptment, to act in our best interests, form anticipation-maps of reality based upon actual evidence, and other rational qualities. I can live with the realization that the universe could send an asteroid down to the planet at any moment, because I know the universe isn't conscious, doesn't have the capacity to care either way. There's no intent involved. But humans DO, but we DON'T. That's the helpless part. I can work and improve myself to a high level of awareness and rationality, but I can't do one iota to improve any other person. That humans have doomed themselves despite this "great soaring passionate intelligence", that's the scary part.

Well, two things, I guess, popped outta my pea brain.  1) it's the eternal beauty and damning plight of humans to anthropomorphize the universe at large.  It's how we deal with and relate to it.  So seeing a bobcat rip the ribcage out of a baby rat in my backyard can make me feel empathy for the mother screaming at the top of her lungs in the dead of night.  Because we have bobcats who prey on OUR young in society as well--they just don't always walk on all fours.  And 2) we are still PART of the universe, so everything we do is not outside of it, though looking at the universe from an "outside of human" point of view might also skew how we fit and interact with it.  We are only as idiotic as the rest of where we live...plenty of other organisms act in an "abnormal" way that are "detrimental" to status quo or so-called progress...we aren't alone there.

...I have somewhere else I could go with this, but I'm distracted by work, so if I can I'll get back to it.  ...as I re-read it I sound like I'm bullshitting anyway, so I'll stop there.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.

It's not funny if I'm the one being slapped. It's only funny when it's happening to someone else.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.

It's not funny if I'm the one being slapped. It's only funny when it's happening to someone else.

Not so!

TGRR's Rule:  It's always funny when it happens to someone else.
Dok Howl's Rule:  It's even funny when it happens to you.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 28, 2010, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.

It's not funny if I'm the one being slapped. It's only funny when it's happening to someone else.

Not so!

TGRR's Rule:  It's always funny when it happens to someone else.
Dok Howl's Rule:  It's even funny when it happens to you.

Damn Skippy.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.

It's not funny if I'm the one being slapped. It's only funny when it's happening to someone else.

Not so!

TGRR's Rule:  It's always funny when it happens to someone else.
Dok Howl's Rule:  It's even funny when it happens to you.

Wow.  Tr00f like this hurts, Dok.  Thank you, and a *whimper* at the same time.  I only have that sort of clarity when I'm outside myself (read: drunk), and this is the conclusion I usually come to.

I actually have more of a problem laughing at the plight of my loved ones.  That's my "sticks in my craw" about the universe.  I somehow am ok with my own slaps, it's the ones I see my family taking that are hardest for me to deal with.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

Lots of things do that, Kai, but hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to help.  You have to look at the shit, see it for what it actually is, and then decide if you can do anything about it.  If you can, do.  If you can't, then at least you can take comfort in watching the slapstick.

It's not funny if I'm the one being slapped. It's only funny when it's happening to someone else.

Not so!

TGRR's Rule:  It's always funny when it happens to someone else.
Dok Howl's Rule:  It's even funny when it happens to you.

Wow.  Tr00f like this hurts, Dok.  Thank you, and a *whimper* at the same time.  I only have that sort of clarity when I'm outside myself (read: drunk), and this is the conclusion I usually come to.

I actually have more of a problem laughing at the plight of my loved ones.  That's my "sticks in my craw" about the universe.  I somehow am ok with my own slaps, it's the ones I see my family taking that are hardest for me to deal with.

Just wait for #2.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:28:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:38:37 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
This is one of those threads that leaves me with an uncomfortable sense of helplessness. Don't know how useful that really is.

One thing that history has taught ME, Kai, is that things have always had the same "hell in a handbasket" way about them...it's just that society sometimes has a wishful/hopeful thinking quality that seems blind to the so-called reality of things.  Trick is to keep in mind the horrific nature of the universe and accept all of it whole cloth, do as you will, and still enjoy the ride.  Somehow.

And mad props if you can help others to do the same.

Well, see, I don't find the universe horrific. I don't even find nature horrific. I just find the human capacity for irrationality contrasted with the equal capacity for rationality to be horrific. Sagan was right when he said this is "the planet of the idiots"; we have the full capacity, the neurological equiptment, to act in our best interests, form anticipation-maps of reality based upon actual evidence, and other rational qualities. I can live with the realization that the universe could send an asteroid down to the planet at any moment, because I know the universe isn't conscious, doesn't have the capacity to care either way. There's no intent involved. But humans DO, but we DON'T. That's the helpless part. I can work and improve myself to a high level of awareness and rationality, but I can't do one iota to improve any other person. That humans have doomed themselves despite this "great soaring passionate intelligence", that's the scary part.

Well, two things, I guess, popped outta my pea brain.  1) it's the eternal beauty and damning plight of humans to anthropomorphize the universe at large.  It's how we deal with and relate to it.  So seeing a bobcat rip the ribcage out of a baby rat in my backyard can make me feel empathy for the mother screaming at the top of her lungs in the dead of night.  Because we have bobcats who prey on OUR young in society as well--they just don't always walk on all fours.  And 2) we are still PART of the universe, so everything we do is not outside of it, though looking at the universe from an "outside of human" point of view might also skew how we fit and interact with it.  We are only as idiotic as the rest of where we live...plenty of other organisms act in an "abnormal" way that are "detrimental" to status quo or so-called progress...we aren't alone there.

...I have somewhere else I could go with this, but I'm distracted by work, so if I can I'll get back to it.  ...as I re-read it I sound like I'm bullshitting anyway, so I'll stop there.

It would be nice if you did continue, because I'm not sure how anthropomorphization is damning, rather than simply an unfortunate contingency. Are you referring to religion?

As for part two, I've been reading a book called Seibutsu no Sekai (The World of Living Things) by Kinji Imanishi, a sort of Japanese version of Lewontin's Triple Helix, written in 1942 right before Imanishi was sent off to fight in WWII. According to the author, humans (and all organisms) have a recognition system which at base ignores everything as not existing that does not fall within it's realm of immediate and long term needs. In contrast, everything it does recognize is seen as an extension of self.

So, humans who are not particularly self-aware treat all the things they recognize in the environment as extensions of self to be manipulated however they please, and everything not recognized essentially doesn't exist.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 28, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 28, 2010, 07:28:52 PM


It would be nice if you did continue,

Ok, I'll hash this out more when I don't have TOEFL people in my head while I'm typing...(and poke me if I forget). :)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 02:57:17 PM
this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Jenne on July 29, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
...too bad that pesky indiduality is what creates the best inventions, the medicines that cure and the art that amazes...
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:04:53 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 02:57:17 PM
this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!

Certain things are going to happen whether your head is in the sand or in a noose. That being said I prefer to die on my feet than live on my knees.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 29, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
...too bad that pesky indiduality is what creates the best inventions, the medicines that cure and the art that amazes...

is it individuals? From the collectivist perspective, no. (tautology lol!) Bear with me, I'm performing a thought experiment...

When Salk invented the polio vaccine, he was merely the focal point through which thousands of years of medical knowledge expressed themselves. If he hadn't done it, somebody else would have. Once medical knowledge had the ingredients for the polio vaccine, it was just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

When duchamp flipped a urinal upside down and signed it R. Mutt, he also flipped the art world upside down. But the art world had been paralyzed by form and tradition, an institutionalized narrow-mindedness that became the perfect starting conditions for some madman to take art in an entirely different direction. Dada certainly did grow from duchamp's personality, but his artistic opinions were reactions to the formal art world - he wouldn't have had that specific reaction unless he was using the collective as his source of input.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:08:04 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 29, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
...too bad that pesky indiduality is what creates the best inventions, the medicines that cure and the art that amazes...

Not to mention it tends to be far more reliable than 'the collective' when the shit hits the fan ;-)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 29, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
...too bad that pesky indiduality is what creates the best inventions, the medicines that cure and the art that amazes...

is it individuals? From the collectivist perspective, no. (tautology lol!) Bear with me, I'm performing a thought experiment...

When Salk invented the polio vaccine, he was merely the focal point through which thousands of years of medical knowledge expressed themselves. If he hadn't done it, somebody else would have. Once medical knowledge had the ingredients for the polio vaccine, it was just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

When duchamp flipped a urinal upside down and signed it R. Mutt, he also flipped the art world upside down. But the art world had been paralyzed by form and tradition, an institutionalized narrow-mindedness that became the perfect starting conditions for some madman to take art in an entirely different direction. Dada certainly did grow from duchamp's personality, but his artistic opinions were reactions to the formal art world - he wouldn't have had that specific reaction unless he was using the collective as his source of input.

But interacting with the Universe seems a lot different than abandoning individuality in favor of the collective.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:04:53 PM
Certain things are going to happen whether your head is in the sand or in a noose. That being said I prefer to die on my feet than live on my knees.

I have to wonder if individuality is not actually the noose -- a rope tying us to consumerism, ephemeral political movements, and anchoring us to pleasure and operant conditioning

the modern concept of individuality is an invention ... it has not always been this way...


Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyday_life#HistoryFurthermore, individuals in many ancient cultures primarily viewed their self-existence under the aspect of a larger social whole, often one with mythological underpinnings which placed the individual in relation to the cosmos.[8] People in such cultures found their identity not through their individual choices—indeed, they may not have been able to conceive a choice which was purely individual. Such individuals, if asked to describe themselves, would speak of the collective of which they were part: the tribe, the Church, the nation.[9]


food for thought, at least
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:10:17 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on July 29, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
...too bad that pesky indiduality is what creates the best inventions, the medicines that cure and the art that amazes...

is it individuals? From the collectivist perspective, no. (tautology lol!) Bear with me, I'm performing a thought experiment...

When Salk invented the polio vaccine, he was merely the focal point through which thousands of years of medical knowledge expressed themselves. If he hadn't done it, somebody else would have. Once medical knowledge had the ingredients for the polio vaccine, it was just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

When duchamp flipped a urinal upside down and signed it R. Mutt, he also flipped the art world upside down. But the art world had been paralyzed by form and tradition, an institutionalized narrow-mindedness that became the perfect starting conditions for some madman to take art in an entirely different direction. Dada certainly did grow from duchamp's personality, but his artistic opinions were reactions to the formal art world - he wouldn't have had that specific reaction unless he was using the collective as his source of input.

It still requires an individual to rise above the humdrum and accomplish something.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:12:37 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:04:53 PM
Certain things are going to happen whether your head is in the sand or in a noose. That being said I prefer to die on my feet than live on my knees.

I have to wonder if individuality is not actually the noose -- a rope tying us to consumerism, ephemeral political movements, and anchoring us to pleasure and operant conditioning

the modern concept of individuality is an invention ... it has not always been this way...


Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyday_life#HistoryFurthermore, individuals in many ancient cultures primarily viewed their self-existence under the aspect of a larger social whole, often one with mythological underpinnings which placed the individual in relation to the cosmos.[8] People in such cultures found their identity not through their individual choices—indeed, they may not have been able to conceive a choice which was purely individual. Such individuals, if asked to describe themselves, would speak of the collective of which they were part: the tribe, the Church, the nation.[9]


food for thought, at least

You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:04:53 PM
Certain things are going to happen whether your head is in the sand or in a noose. That being said I prefer to die on my feet than live on my knees.

I have to wonder if individuality is not actually the noose -- a rope tying us to consumerism, ephemeral political movements, and anchoring us to pleasure and operant conditioning

the modern concept of individuality is an invention ... it has not always been this way...


Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyday_life#HistoryFurthermore, individuals in many ancient cultures primarily viewed their self-existence under the aspect of a larger social whole, often one with mythological underpinnings which placed the individual in relation to the cosmos.[8] People in such cultures found their identity not through their individual choices—indeed, they may not have been able to conceive a choice which was purely individual. Such individuals, if asked to describe themselves, would speak of the collective of which they were part: the tribe, the Church, the nation.[9]


food for thought, at least

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



That is incredibly weak.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:25:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



That is incredibly weak.

And Dr. Brown is riding the correct motorcycle!
:lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 02:57:17 PM
this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!

I disagree. What you are stating above is a black and white false dilemma, not optimal, and it doesn't even cut to the point of the problem: that humans have a much greater capacity for awareness and rationality than they actually use on a regular basis. The above don't even address the problem. How does removing awareness in item one increase awareness? How does sacrificing the self increase awareness and rationality? Neither are answers. You might have well said "god will solve it".

Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Jesus. Christ. On a motherfucking pogo stick.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:12:37 PM
You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.


Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:29:21 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 02:57:17 PM
this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!

I disagree. What you are stating above is a black and white false dilemma, not optimal, and it doesn't even cut to the point of the problem: that humans have a much greater capacity for awareness and rationality than they actually use on a regular basis. The above don't even address the problem. How does removing awareness in item one increase awareness? How does sacrificing the self increase awareness and rationality? Neither are answers. You might have well said "god will solve it".

Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Jesus. Christ. On a motherfucking pogo stick.


Kai........:spittake:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: President Television on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:31:32 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:12:37 PM
You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.


Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

What the fuck are you blabbering about?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

It's not that they aren't complex enough (whatever that might mean), but that they aren't autonomous, never have been autonomous, and its the wrong level of organization. Yes yes, lets compare human societies to FLUID DYNAMICS AND QUANTUM MECHANICS! THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: President Television on July 29, 2010, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:12:37 PM
You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.


Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

This absolutism is moronic. Individualism doesn't mean divorcing yourself from the rest of humanity, it means existing as a single consciousness within society and making decisions based on critical thought. It doesn't mean being short-sighted and seeing only to your own needs, it means being compassionate by your own choice. If you choose to be, anyway.

Quote from: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

It's not that they aren't complex enough (whatever that might mean), but that they aren't autonomous, never have been autonomous, and its the wrong level of organization. Yes yes, lets compare human societies to FLUID DYNAMICS AND QUANTUM MECHANICS! THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE.

What I meant is that a white blood cell doesn't have any kind of neurological mechanism.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:41:16 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

The War Cry of the rational mind: "Holy Fuck, the tribe is full of crazy people that keep trying to sacrifice young girls!"

War cries are overrated.

Quote
Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?

Yes, its also what keeps those Catholic families growing and growing and growing and getting 15 different STD's cause you can't put a rubber on your willy. Not to mention its what causes all those red faced godly Christians, foaming at the mouth when they see someone in a Burka... Of course, it also provides that wonderful safety of caste in India, and Honor Killings when your kid is foolish and marries outside their caste. The Tribe demands hegemony at the expense of rationality, individuality and personality.

But, its totally a good way to survive.

I mean, look at my family, they're happily embedded in the Tribe of Jehovah's Witnesses. When my Dad got laid off, food would magically appear at our front door, because the Tribe takes care of their own. Of course, once I decided I didn't want to be part of the tribe, they cut off all interaction... because that's what the Tribe demands. Survive, sure... have a life? Not so much...







Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:12:37 PM
You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.


Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

This absolutism is moronic. Individualism doesn't mean divorcing yourself from the rest of humanity, it means existing as a single consciousness within society and making decisions based on critical thought. It doesn't mean being short-sighted and seeing only to your own needs, it means being compassionate by your own choice. If you choose to be, anyway.

Very well stated!
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: KaiWRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Your point supports mine. When you zoom out, the individual disappears. I know we're all looking at each other here on the human level, so humans seem really important to us, but if we get outside of that perspective, it's possible that all this bullshit which fills our lives is kind of irrelevant.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

there are structural similarities between the brain, the society, the city, the culture...

within the context of the human metabolism, a white blood cell is very much an individual. If complexity is the measure of an individual, I'm not sure that WE measure up, when you consider how complex and dynamic larger things are.





Greater comment in the context of the thread:

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:43:40 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

Could you keep your mind on one topic please and not all over the place? Jesus christ, I can't even follow what you're saying anymore. So, we simplify our lives, GOOD, but that doesn't the least bit have anything to do with becoming like onto eusocial insects.

QuoteThe war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"
Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?

this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

I think you are castrating yourself by POLARIZING THE MOTHERFUCKING ISSUE. Jesus christ, it's like I'm talking with a communist or libertarian or partistan or borg or catholic. The discordian blashphemy is acting like there are only two alternatives.

@Dok Plague: it can still interact with the environment, just not autonomously, but that wasn't my point anyway.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: President Television on July 29, 2010, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Um, Discordianism.

Quote from: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:43:40 PM
@Dok Plague: it can still interact with the environment, just not autonomously, but that wasn't my point anyway.

Yeah, well that's what I meant. Any given white blood cell with the same DNA would behave in exactly the same way in any given situation. Individualism can't even be considered.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:46:01 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: KaiWRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Your point supports mine. When you zoom out, the individual disappears. I know we're all looking at each other here on the human level, so humans seem really important to us, but if we get outside of that perspective, it's possible that all this bullshit which fills our lives is kind of irrelevant.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

there are structural similarities between the brain, the society, the city, the culture...

within the context of the human metabolism, a white blood cell is very much an individual. If complexity is the measure of an individual, I'm not sure that WE measure up, when you consider how complex and dynamic larger things are.





Greater comment in the context of the thread:

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then make your case more intelligently. Stay on topic. Avoid flowerery nonsense.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:47:16 PM
Actually this is beginning to remind me of DK.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then you need to present the ideas in a more thoughtful fashion... thus far, its not been much more than some wild generalizations and bad metaphors...

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:50:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then you need to present the ideas in a more thoughtful fashion... thus far, its not been much more than some wild generalizations and bad metaphors...



Beat ya to it.  :lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: President Television on July 29, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
This thread was good until Phineas showed up.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:50:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then you need to present the ideas in a more thoughtful fashion... thus far, its not been much more than some wild generalizations and bad metaphors...



Beat ya to it.  :lulz:

d'Oh!  :lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:55:29 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 29, 2010, 03:43:40 PM
I think you are castrating yourself by POLARIZING THE MOTHERFUCKING ISSUE. Jesus christ, it's like I'm talking with a communist or libertarian or partistan or borg or catholic. The discordian blashphemy is acting like there are only two alternatives.

earlier, in my reply to ratatosk I said that a pragmatic approach is more useful than getting locked into your individual mindset.

your inability to talk about this without dropping ad hominems makes me go MEH
I expected better


Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 29, 2010, 03:46:01 PM
Then make your case more intelligently. Stay on topic. Avoid flowerery nonsense.

:?

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Um, Discordianism.

Right so no actual discussions then



you guys can disagree with me, that's fine, because I'm not putting any ego behind these ideas. They are not my ideas, they are ideas I want to examine. I've been saying it from the beginning, this is a devil's advocate discussion. It's possible to disagree with somebody without being condescending -- in fact, it's the only way to build a rational discussion.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 03:57:43 PM
DAMMIT
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 03:59:11 PM
Right, but you have to make good arguments... So far, I haven't seen any. I mean White Blood Cells? Really?

And, while the collective may help you survive, it may also do all sorts of additional terrible things (see my previous posts)... How does your thought experiment address those?

It's fine to play the devil's advocate, but that dude has to work hard to win his cases... I mean, he's still paying off his student loans and it's been 6000 years.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 04:00:07 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: KaiWRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Your point supports mine. When you zoom out, the individual disappears. I know we're all looking at each other here on the human level, so humans seem really important to us, but if we get outside of that perspective, it's possible that all this bullshit which fills our lives is kind of irrelevant.

Are you not a human? If you are not a human, what the fuck are you? And if you are a human, why the FUCK wouldn't humans seem important? Do you think bears walk around thinking "bears seem really important to me, because I'm a bear, but when I get outside that perspective, bears aren't really important, so everything I do is irrelevant"? FUCK NO. They just go on doing bear shit. It's a huge fallacy that, because we are human and can consider a perspective beyond our individual lives, that makes our individual human lives irrelevant.

Quote
Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

there are structural similarities between the brain, the society, the city, the culture...

within the context of the human metabolism, a white blood cell is very much an individual. If complexity is the measure of an individual, I'm not sure that WE measure up, when you consider how complex and dynamic larger things are.

I swear, I am going to kill a motherfucker.

The only structural similarities between any level of organization is many units which interact in close proximity causing categorical nova. Everything else is superficial. You cannot compare quantum mechanics to organismal biology to sociology because they are not comparable. And no, a white blood cell isn't an individual. An individual is an autonomous organic unit. White blood cells are not autonomous in any sense. And as for /complexity/,


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4wFT874gfeY/SAQaKl33sFI/AAAAAAAAAWk/3JnVg6PS7pY/s400/InigoMontoya.jpg)
              \
               \
FAKE EXPLANATIONS, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU KNOW THEM?

QuoteGreater comment in the context of the thread:

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

There's nothing critical about the analysis, because you're just pulling words out of your ass that you don't understand, it's teachers passwords all the way down. Your entire argument could be summed up in the word "Phlogiston" and have precisely the same amount of reality anticipation, which is to say, zero.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 04:00:48 PM
Okay, I yield to the rejack. Just had to get that out of my system.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:01:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:42:43 PM
Well, not SO secret, just that nobody pays attention to it.

Many Americans know that the founding fathers were mostly Deists.  A Deist is one who believes in "God as watchmaker"...IE, God set the universe up, and let it run without further interference.

So it's obviously no surprise that the founders set our government up the same way (With the notable exceptions of Patrick Henry and Alexander Hamilton, who objected for very different reasons.).  In fact, given article V, it's even arguable that they set up a social program, designed to make the citizens of the union more free and more happy as time went on.

And it worked.  Slavery was abolished (though not without cost), women got the right to vote, the average life of the common man became better and better, for about 190 years.

Problem is, the program was based on a model, and the model was - as all models are - flawed to some degree.  This caused errors to appear, errors which grew with every iteration (or generation, in this case), until the system began to break down. 

For example, World War I was predictable at the time of the founding, and was probably taken into account.  World War II, on the other hand, was an error caused by errors made in 1918, and probably couldn't have been imagined by the founders.  Recessions were undoubtably taken into account.  The dustbowl and the depression, probably not so much.

We've now been cycling monstrous errors for 60 years, and the effects became noticeable about 40 years ago, serious 30 years ago, and untenable 10 years ago.  We exist in a broken Machine in a horrible reality that Machine built for us, not out of malice, but out of bad data...Small errors magnified over decades, until there are a million small problems, and a few huge ones, that the system simply can't cope with anymore. 

You can't really fix it, or hit the "reset button", as the Ron Paul crowd would like to do, because you can't change the past, and you can't make history go away without creating a worse monster than you started with.

The idea of "E-Democracy" won't help, either, because changing the controls on a broken machine doesn't fix the machine, it just adds further complexity and makes the problems worse.

If allowed to continue, the end result will be either an autocracy or an oligarchy (something guaranteed by Ron Paul's ideas, and those of the "E-Democracy" crowd, incidentally).  The founders probably knew this would eventually happen...They were nothing if not students of history.

You have to wonder if they saw this coming, and wondered if we'd be smart enough when the time came to develop something completely different, a new social program that would be able to carry on where theirs finally failed. 

And, well, if not, we had 220 years.  Not a bad run.

Okay for now,
Dok
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:01:37 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 04:12:16 PM
I see a problem like this, and I get caught up in it almost by default.  Can't be helped, I am, as one good ol' italian fellow I knew in college dubbed me, a fixer.  

I don't have a good elegant fix for it, either.  I have an idea of running through the pages of laws, regulations and policies with a rubber stamp. "BULLSHIT: REMOVE"  This is falling into the trap of trying to fix the machine though, a labor of the Gordian sort, with a case of Sisiphus of undiagnosed serverity.  Given the rate at which the BS perpetuates and multiplies, the elected rabid STD host monkies hammer away at their typewriters banging down drugs with booze when they're not outright shitting everywhere.  At what point did we sign our overarching servies to these mangy creatures?  We did it because it was easy, because we didn't want to worry.  

There had been an earning, and entitlement, a decision that it would be OK to expect everything the dream of America promised, sit behind out picket fence pallisades and expect everything to go on OK outside of us.  We grew fat and big and forgot what "Community" was, though we're rediscovering "Tribe" in a REAL hurry.  

Fire?  Better call someone and expect them to stop it.  It's THEIR job.
Bleeding out?  Phone the lazy ambulance fuckers.  Weren't they wathcing your webcam stream?
Robbed?  Clear out, let the robbers have their way, and wait for the police to show up and stop them.  You are not allowed to defend your self or your property.  Jump in and YOU are LIABLE if any of it goes wrong.  We do have to protect everyone form overzealous amateur participation.

How do you untangle that kind of self-  fucking logic?  Alexander the Great knew how to cut through bullshit.  He may have jsut been a frag - happy frat boy who was good with horses, but the example: fuck the minutia, go out an accomplish SOMETHING: it's one that works.  Can we cut our mess of a system apart and go on?  

Primarily, there's this sneering hipster, teenage angst concept of the "system".  There is no "system", (that's my runnign slash with Occam's razor for the day).  Assuming their is any centralized intention behind it all dedicated to (apparently) inconveniencing, frustrating, monitoring, and driving you into slavedom is a delusion of your own self importance.  Saying there is a "system" doing anything like this is like accusing space aliens of fuckign with the fabric of the unvierse to give us all cancer with Hawkian Radiation.  It's a side effect, a leaking, a sidestream of every little injustice, inconsistency and bureaocratic trip - up in interacting with anythign bigger than a 7 person small business.  In short; you're delusion of persecution is backed and powered by the sinister fuck of idiot human nature.  

Feel cold yet?   (more to come.)

     
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.

uhhh I've been backing up my arguments? Just because you don't agree with my points doesn't mean that I'm not contributing something solid. What I'm examining is a point of view, which cannot be right or wrong, although it can have degrees of both. In the replies to my posts, I haven't yet heard anything which has tipped my opinion. So merely admitting that I'm wrong because a group disagrees with me... would be the sort of collectivism you guys are arguing against.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
This thread was good until Phineas showed up.

I had been chewing on Dok's OP since he posted it, and I wanted to share some of the things it made me question. I think this is the preferred thing to do, rather than ignoring it or posting mittens.

but if you guys think I fucked it up, mea culpa. Don't sweat it, I'm out then, sorry to fuck things up.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: Richter on July 27, 2010, 04:41:43 PM
Thinking back for a second to our founding Deists.  "Sure, there was a watchmaker, but it's up to us to tuen it up a bit."  Not "I better hire a watchmaker." or, "I better contact the central watch maintenance authority witha  bug report."  We are all of us looking at this metaphorical watch constantly.  Thought these days it seems like more than just a watch.  It was a simple pocketwatch at first.  The kind even a local craftsman could afford, and it did the basic stuff simple.  Then we added to it, and it worked all right still, but it was getting big.  We had a few crazy outings, but it held up.  Some folks decided that they could fuck around with the mechanism a few times, steal a little money off of each turn of the spring, and almost crashed the works, so prevention, regulations and failsafes were built in.  This happened a LOT.  Seems like sometimes every concern a few people could give voice to would get another part peice or function added on.  

I don't think it's a watch anymore.  It's a huge fuckign emchanical spider now.  Too big to take off for parties with guns and ammo anymore, but there are these huge goddamn legs, brislted and hgairly withe fighter jets tanks and ordnance that we plop down anywhere we want to send the boys to play.  In fact, it's not even standing with too many legs on the country that supposedly built it anymore.  It's busy supporting itself off other lands, proping up or squashing as it teeters.  There's jsut the body proped up over us now.  Eyes, spinarettes, and horrible fuckign fangs.  It spins down campign signs and slogan, news, internet, and shiny new apple products.  The eyes watch every form of radiation of vibration we make and detect, and several we don't.  the fangs ares resplendent with bright black clube, dripping with mace and jackboots, crackling like a fucking thudnerstorm of a tazer.  Look close; it's all printing presses and typewrtiers, cotton gins, dot matrix printers, and (finagle take it all!) a few old looms still spinning the mummified scalps of their mutilated opperators.  

Anything we ever did when we thought it wasn't our concern or problem is up there.  Too big to fail, or too big to crush us without killing us all?  Haha!  Remember how the "Crystal ball effect" seemed optimistic?

(Hork cough spit coffee)
Okay
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:03:40 PM
Ahem, the OP and subsequent posts had real content.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.

uhhh I've been backing up my arguments? Just because you don't agree with my points doesn't mean that I'm not contributing something solid. What I'm examining is a point of view, which cannot be right or wrong, although it can have degrees of both. In the replies to my posts, I haven't yet heard anything which has tipped my opinion. So merely admitting that I'm wrong because a group disagrees with me... would be the sort of collectivism you guys are arguing against.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
This thread was good until Phineas showed up.

I had been chewing on Dok's OP since he posted it, and I wanted to share some of the things it made me question. I think this is the preferred thing to do, rather than ignoring it or posting mittens.

but if you guys think I fucked it up, mea culpa. Don't sweat it, I'm out then, sorry to fuck things up.

PROTIP: Start your own thread.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Kai on July 29, 2010, 04:16:15 PM
Hawk, you make a good thread bouncer.  :)
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 04:17:36 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 29, 2010, 04:16:15 PM
Hawk, you make a good thread bouncer.  :)

:lulz:
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2010, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.

uhhh I've been backing up my arguments? Just because you don't agree with my points doesn't mean that I'm not contributing something solid. What I'm examining is a point of view, which cannot be right or wrong, although it can have degrees of both. In the replies to my posts, I haven't yet heard anything which has tipped my opinion. So merely admitting that I'm wrong because a group disagrees with me... would be the sort of collectivism you guys are arguing against.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
This thread was good until Phineas showed up.

I had been chewing on Dok's OP since he posted it, and I wanted to share some of the things it made me question. I think this is the preferred thing to do, rather than ignoring it or posting mittens.

but if you guys think I fucked it up, mea culpa. Don't sweat it, I'm out then, sorry to fuck things up.

I want you to share these things.  Never mind the bollocks.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2010, 09:10:39 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.

You are a fucking idiot.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on July 29, 2010, 09:11:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2010, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
It's no flamewar. They're just asking you to put forth arguments that you can back up. Otherwise just lurk and read moar until you have something solid to contribute. No shame in admitting you've said dumb things, just do it and you'll feel better. We all derp things up once in a while. It's tough to be intellectually honest and even tougher to admit you're wrong.

uhhh I've been backing up my arguments? Just because you don't agree with my points doesn't mean that I'm not contributing something solid. What I'm examining is a point of view, which cannot be right or wrong, although it can have degrees of both. In the replies to my posts, I haven't yet heard anything which has tipped my opinion. So merely admitting that I'm wrong because a group disagrees with me... would be the sort of collectivism you guys are arguing against.

Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
This thread was good until Phineas showed up.

I had been chewing on Dok's OP since he posted it, and I wanted to share some of the things it made me question. I think this is the preferred thing to do, rather than ignoring it or posting mittens.

but if you guys think I fucked it up, mea culpa. Don't sweat it, I'm out then, sorry to fuck things up.

I want you to share these things.  Never mind the bollocks.

I have apologized for my part in this already.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2010, 09:13:42 PM
Fuck this noise.  I'm done.

Someone else can write this shit, and then you can all dump all over Cram (especially that idiot Zyzyx telling Cram to "lurk more") without my involvement.  Doesn't fucking matter anyway, because I was dumb enough to post in Apple Talk, where it will be buried alive under "man bites shark" threads within hours.

Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Zyzyx on July 29, 2010, 09:37:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2010, 09:13:42 PM
Fuck this noise.  I'm done.

Someone else can write this shit, and then you can all dump all over Cram (especially that idiot Zyzyx telling Cram to "lurk more") without my involvement.  Doesn't fucking matter anyway, because I was dumb enough to post in Apple Talk, where it will be buried alive under "man bites shark" threads within hours.


EDIT: EDIT: Shit.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on July 29, 2010, 10:09:54 PM
tits.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Sir Fronkensteen, The Hawk on July 29, 2010, 10:27:51 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titz
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on July 30, 2010, 12:15:25 AM
Quote from: Cheese Hawk Fronkensteen on July 29, 2010, 10:27:51 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titz

I'm from Germany, so naturally, this did not make me laugh.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: BadBeast on July 30, 2010, 03:57:12 PM
Could a broken machine, such as the one you describe Dok, not recover itself if a dynamic of Meritocracy was applied as a kind of Trump Card? Something that would reach beyond the obsolete and detrimental influences of Plutarchy, Nepotism, and Factional Division? I have no idea how to implement such a dynamic, but it's not beyond the realms of possibilty that somebody does.

Meritocratic Government just seems like the most sensible and fuctional way to Govern, to me. I mean, if we must have Governments, (and concensus seems that we must) then surely it makes sense to have people doing it, who are capable of doing the job without resorting to a capricious and malleable monster, like Western Democracy to bullshit, bribe, and bully agendas into place, that are not necessarily in peoples best interests. 
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 30, 2010, 04:15:30 PM

Isn't it the point that modifying our institutions is now a more difficult task than knocking it all down and implementing new ones?
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on August 02, 2010, 03:36:38 AM
Quote from: Doktor Plague on July 29, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on July 29, 2010, 03:18:14 PM
in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.



White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

Biologists at Harvard strongly disagree with your expert opinion about the complexity of white blood cells:

http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/anim_innerlife.html
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: Adios on August 02, 2010, 03:49:03 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on July 30, 2010, 03:57:12 PM
Could a broken machine, such as the one you describe Dok, not recover itself if a dynamic of Meritocracy was applied as a kind of Trump Card? Something that would reach beyond the obsolete and detrimental influences of Plutarchy, Nepotism, and Factional Division? I have no idea how to implement such a dynamic, but it's not beyond the realms of possibilty that somebody does.

Meritocratic Government just seems like the most sensible and fuctional way to Govern, to me. I mean, if we must have Governments, (and concensus seems that we must) then surely it makes sense to have people doing it, who are capable of doing the job without resorting to a capricious and malleable monster, like Western Democracy to bullshit, bribe, and bully agendas into place, that are not necessarily in peoples best interests. 

I think the point is it's own unawareness is unalterable.
Title: Re: The Secret Histories, #1
Post by: BadBeast on September 04, 2011, 04:21:22 AM
Well, the only way, it seems, to have even a chance of sorting all the fucking mess out, is to have one person, whose word is Sovereign and quells all dissent. One person that can rule every aspect of your life, with a will that is unopposed, incontrovertable, but also fully accepting of the consequences of any decisions.

Thing is, the only person I would trust to  have that kind of power over my life, is me.  So either the World must submit itself to my will, or, . . . . . . . . . . . . My will must rethink it's jurisdiction and adjust it's expectations of other jurisdictions accordingly.  Once a proportionate set of parameters regarding ones personal power is in place, then the old, flawed models can be ignored. Not torn down, or vilified, just ignored. You can't disempower such structures by pouring energy into them. They just get stronger. Machine broken? then leave it in the side of the road. You can't fix it. There's a reason it no longer works. Not one that I need to know particularly, but a reason, nonetheless. If there wasn't, it would still be working.

So I say leave the fucker out there in the snow to die. I never consented to being a cog in any fucked up clanking, mechanical doom machine anyway.