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Bigotry is abound, apprently, within these boards.  There is a level of supposed tolerance I will have no part of.  Obviously, it seems to be well-embraced here.  I have finally found something more fucked up than what I'm used to.  Congrats. - Ruby

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Atheists and White Supremacists

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, October 23, 2013, 04:56:21 PM

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Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:28:30 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 02:25:48 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:23:07 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 01:38:40 AM

I don't mean to single you out, Twid, but I've noticed that most people who believe in some form of deity (or a variation thereof) but don't subscribe to an established religion tend to believe in a monotheistic deity (or consciousness, spirit, being, etc).  I'm curious why that is.

Because Gods are like spouses.  ONE AT A TIME IS PLENTY.

I will say that polytheistic committees and bureaucracies are more reflective of modern society than the King of the World monotheistic model.

I tend to think of God more as an absentee landlord.

Change that to data collector, and I think you and I are on the same page, at least at the moment.

Doktor Blight,
Trying to take God's blood pressure
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Pope Pixie Pickle

Seriously though, the MRA's/racism/sucking up to Dawkins ting in the antitheist crowd gets really really alienating for some folks. PZ Meyers seems ok.

and as for Vex point someway back about an expectation of theism as default (akin to heteronormativity, the assumption that straight is the default) I think is very peculiar to location. Here in the UK there's not much of an issue on that.


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Pixie on October 25, 2013, 02:30:57 AM
Seriously though, the MRA's/racism/sucking up to Dawkins ting in the antitheist crowd gets really really alienating for some folks. PZ Meyers seems ok.

and as for Vex point someway back about an expectation of theism as default (akin to heteronormativity, the assumption that straight is the default) I think is very peculiar to location. Here in the UK there's not much of an issue on that.

That's because you sent all your whackjobs HERE and left us all alone.  With nobody watching.

Then 400 years later, you're all appalled by Rick Warren and Jerry Falwell. 

:lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Golden Applesauce

Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 01:38:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 12:22:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AMBelief specifically in neptune might be dumb.

Why?
If he is understood to be some guy swimming around in the mediterranean causing earthquakes them that is a rather strange belief. Just as strange as the idea of jehovah having a literal cease and cloud throne.

I'll concede that a literal reading of, let's say, Homer probably isn't very representative of reality.  However, isn't it possible that Neptune does exist even if he doesn't have a beard and sea throne just like Jehovah not having a beard and cloud throne doesn't automatically discount the existence of God?  And ultimately isn't the idea of multiple gods just as possible as a single God?

I don't mean to single you out, Twid, but I've noticed that most people who believe in some form of deity (or a variation thereof) but don't subscribe to an established religion tend to believe in a monotheistic deity (or consciousness, spirit, being, etc).  I'm curious why that is. Is the idea that a single God created the universe, set it in motion, and then stepped back any more or less possible than a group of deities doing the same?  Is the idea that the universe as a whole is one massive organism any more or less possible than the idea that each individual galaxy is an organism, and the universe as a whole is simply a school of organisms swimming through the cosmic sea?

A lot of people throughout history, at least European and Near Eastern history, tend to gravitate towards monotheism.  I wonder why that is.  I wonder what about our human nature leads us towards the idea that a single deity is more logical or more possible than multiple deities.   But isn't there the same amount of evidence for polytheism as there is for monotheism?  I accept that God might exist because there's no proof to the contrary.  But couldn't the same be said for multiple gods?  Or maybe some kind of infinite number of animistic spirits?  For all we know the Big Bang could be what happens when a celestial Mike fires up the misaligned cosmic ball mill.

Or maybe it just seems like our nature drives us towards monotheism because I live in a culture/hemisphere that has had a lot of contact with monotheism throughout history?

It was pretty much just one sun baked desert tribe that made the leap from "Our god is better than your god" to "Our god is perfect in ways we can't even describe. Your god just plain doesn't exist." The practice of telling people that their god(s) don't exist became extremely popular over the next couple millennia, to the point where people would seek out new territories on the off chance they could discover people and tell them their god(s) don't exist. Then said people got really good at sailing to new territories, and now the various empires of "Knock, knock, your god is fake" control most of Europe, Africa, the Americas, and dryer and colder parts of Asia.

The surviving major power bases of polytheism, pantheism, and functional atheism ("Gods are very real, but they play no part in salvation/enlightenment) are all in Asia. India traditionally hasn't been very evangelical, except for Buddhism. China recently went through a phase where it decided to disbelieve in gods, agriculture, and economics all at the same time, and it's taking some time for them and their neighbors to recover from the entirely predictable results of that.
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:32:51 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 25, 2013, 02:30:57 AM
Seriously though, the MRA's/racism/sucking up to Dawkins ting in the antitheist crowd gets really really alienating for some folks. PZ Meyers seems ok.

and as for Vex point someway back about an expectation of theism as default (akin to heteronormativity, the assumption that straight is the default) I think is very peculiar to location. Here in the UK there's not much of an issue on that.

That's because you sent all your whackjobs HERE and left us all alone.  With nobody watching.

Then 400 years later, you're all appalled by Rick Warren and Jerry Falwell. 

:lulz:

Yeah, I get the sense that, other than Ireland, Europe is "erm.... yeah I go to church.... sometimes... not really. How about that footie!" is the norm. Here in the US, it's like, "Oh, you're an atheist." Turn to page 79, 83 or 107
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

In Boston, it's like, "Yeah, I'm a Catholic, and a devout one at that. I also support abortion, gay marriage, Obamacare, remarriage, fuck you Republicans and give me my fucking Corpus Christi, asshole!"
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM
I see this thread has returned to it's roots:  hating on Nigel.

:lulz:

Well, you know, it's a fine old tradition, and it's easier than thinking.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 02:55:01 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM
I see this thread has returned to it's roots:  hating on Nigel.

:lulz:

Well, you know, it's a fine old tradition, and it's easier than thinking.

I would have been a world-famous scientist, but then Nigel.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Golden Applesauce

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 01:38:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 12:22:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AMBelief specifically in neptune might be dumb.

Why?
If he is understood to be some guy swimming around in the mediterranean causing earthquakes them that is a rather strange belief. Just as strange as the idea of jehovah having a literal cease and cloud throne.

I'll concede that a literal reading of, let's say, Homer probably isn't very representative of reality.  However, isn't it possible that Neptune does exist even if he doesn't have a beard and sea throne just like Jehovah not having a beard and cloud throne doesn't automatically discount the existence of God?  And ultimately isn't the idea of multiple gods just as possible as a single God?

I don't mean to single you out, Twid, but I've noticed that most people who believe in some form of deity (or a variation thereof) but don't subscribe to an established religion tend to believe in a monotheistic deity (or consciousness, spirit, being, etc).  I'm curious why that is. Is the idea that a single God created the universe, set it in motion, and then stepped back any more or less possible than a group of deities doing the same?  Is the idea that the universe as a whole is one massive organism any more or less possible than the idea that each individual galaxy is an organism, and the universe as a whole is simply a school of organisms swimming through the cosmic sea?

A lot of people throughout history, at least European and Near Eastern history, tend to gravitate towards monotheism.  I wonder why that is.  I wonder what about our human nature leads us towards the idea that a single deity is more logical or more possible than multiple deities.   But isn't there the same amount of evidence for polytheism as there is for monotheism?  I accept that God might exist because there's no proof to the contrary.  But couldn't the same be said for multiple gods?  Or maybe some kind of infinite number of animistic spirits?  For all we know the Big Bang could be what happens when a celestial Mike fires up the misaligned cosmic ball mill.

Or maybe it just seems like our nature drives us towards monotheism because I live in a culture/hemisphere that has had a lot of contact with monotheism throughout history?

It was pretty much just one sun baked desert tribe that made the leap from "Our god is better than your god" to "Our god is perfect in ways we can't even describe. Your god just plain doesn't exist." The practice of telling people that their god(s) don't exist became extremely popular over the next couple millennia, to the point where people would seek out new territories on the off chance they could discover people and tell them their god(s) don't exist. Then said people got really good at sailing to new territories, and now the various empires of "Knock, knock, your god is fake" control most of Europe, Africa, the Americas, and dryer and colder parts of Asia.

The surviving major power bases of polytheism, pantheism, and functional atheism ("Gods are very real, but they play no part in salvation/enlightenment) are all in Asia. India traditionally hasn't been very evangelical, except for Buddhism. China recently went through a phase where it decided to disbelieve in gods, agriculture, and economics all at the same time, and it's taking some time for them and their neighbors to recover from the entirely predictable results of that.

Follow-up to add:
The new wave atheists who do nothing but go around telling people they're stupid for believing in g/God(s) can thus be thought of as the 4th Abrahamic religion, taking the seed idea of "{God} doesn't exist" from monotheism and extending it to its logical conclusion of no god existing.
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:55:43 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 02:55:01 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM
I see this thread has returned to it's roots:  hating on Nigel.

:lulz:

Well, you know, it's a fine old tradition, and it's easier than thinking.

I would have been a world-famous scientist, but then Nigel.

:lol:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 03:04:51 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 01:38:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 12:22:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AMBelief specifically in neptune might be dumb.

Why?
If he is understood to be some guy swimming around in the mediterranean causing earthquakes them that is a rather strange belief. Just as strange as the idea of jehovah having a literal cease and cloud throne.

I'll concede that a literal reading of, let's say, Homer probably isn't very representative of reality.  However, isn't it possible that Neptune does exist even if he doesn't have a beard and sea throne just like Jehovah not having a beard and cloud throne doesn't automatically discount the existence of God?  And ultimately isn't the idea of multiple gods just as possible as a single God?

I don't mean to single you out, Twid, but I've noticed that most people who believe in some form of deity (or a variation thereof) but don't subscribe to an established religion tend to believe in a monotheistic deity (or consciousness, spirit, being, etc).  I'm curious why that is. Is the idea that a single God created the universe, set it in motion, and then stepped back any more or less possible than a group of deities doing the same?  Is the idea that the universe as a whole is one massive organism any more or less possible than the idea that each individual galaxy is an organism, and the universe as a whole is simply a school of organisms swimming through the cosmic sea?

A lot of people throughout history, at least European and Near Eastern history, tend to gravitate towards monotheism.  I wonder why that is.  I wonder what about our human nature leads us towards the idea that a single deity is more logical or more possible than multiple deities.   But isn't there the same amount of evidence for polytheism as there is for monotheism?  I accept that God might exist because there's no proof to the contrary.  But couldn't the same be said for multiple gods?  Or maybe some kind of infinite number of animistic spirits?  For all we know the Big Bang could be what happens when a celestial Mike fires up the misaligned cosmic ball mill.

Or maybe it just seems like our nature drives us towards monotheism because I live in a culture/hemisphere that has had a lot of contact with monotheism throughout history?

It was pretty much just one sun baked desert tribe that made the leap from "Our god is better than your god" to "Our god is perfect in ways we can't even describe. Your god just plain doesn't exist." The practice of telling people that their god(s) don't exist became extremely popular over the next couple millennia, to the point where people would seek out new territories on the off chance they could discover people and tell them their god(s) don't exist. Then said people got really good at sailing to new territories, and now the various empires of "Knock, knock, your god is fake" control most of Europe, Africa, the Americas, and dryer and colder parts of Asia.

The surviving major power bases of polytheism, pantheism, and functional atheism ("Gods are very real, but they play no part in salvation/enlightenment) are all in Asia. India traditionally hasn't been very evangelical, except for Buddhism. China recently went through a phase where it decided to disbelieve in gods, agriculture, and economics all at the same time, and it's taking some time for them and their neighbors to recover from the entirely predictable results of that.

Follow-up to add:
The new wave atheists who do nothing but go around telling people they're stupid for believing in g/God(s) can thus be thought of as the 4th Abrahamic religion, taking the seed idea of "{God} doesn't exist" from monotheism and extending it to its logical conclusion of no god existing.

Small a atheism: I hold no beliefs in deities.
Large A Atheism: I hold no beliefs in deities and that's the no-God's honest Truth.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Kai

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:55:43 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 02:55:01 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM
I see this thread has returned to it's roots:  hating on Nigel.

:lulz:

Well, you know, it's a fine old tradition, and it's easier than thinking.

I would have been a world-famous scientist, but then Nigel.

:lulz: Funniest thing in this poop of a thread.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Kai on October 25, 2013, 03:08:12 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:55:43 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 02:55:01 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM
I see this thread has returned to it's roots:  hating on Nigel.

:lulz:

Well, you know, it's a fine old tradition, and it's easier than thinking.

I would have been a world-famous scientist, but then Nigel.

:lulz: Funniest thing in this poop of a thread.

Yeah, that is pretty gold  :lulz:

Oh, incidentally, wait, no, I'll just tag you.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Kai

Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 03:07:10 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 03:04:51 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 01:38:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 25, 2013, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Aucoq on October 25, 2013, 12:22:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AMBelief specifically in neptune might be dumb.

Why?
If he is understood to be some guy swimming around in the mediterranean causing earthquakes them that is a rather strange belief. Just as strange as the idea of jehovah having a literal cease and cloud throne.

I'll concede that a literal reading of, let's say, Homer probably isn't very representative of reality.  However, isn't it possible that Neptune does exist even if he doesn't have a beard and sea throne just like Jehovah not having a beard and cloud throne doesn't automatically discount the existence of God?  And ultimately isn't the idea of multiple gods just as possible as a single God?

I don't mean to single you out, Twid, but I've noticed that most people who believe in some form of deity (or a variation thereof) but don't subscribe to an established religion tend to believe in a monotheistic deity (or consciousness, spirit, being, etc).  I'm curious why that is. Is the idea that a single God created the universe, set it in motion, and then stepped back any more or less possible than a group of deities doing the same?  Is the idea that the universe as a whole is one massive organism any more or less possible than the idea that each individual galaxy is an organism, and the universe as a whole is simply a school of organisms swimming through the cosmic sea?

A lot of people throughout history, at least European and Near Eastern history, tend to gravitate towards monotheism.  I wonder why that is.  I wonder what about our human nature leads us towards the idea that a single deity is more logical or more possible than multiple deities.   But isn't there the same amount of evidence for polytheism as there is for monotheism?  I accept that God might exist because there's no proof to the contrary.  But couldn't the same be said for multiple gods?  Or maybe some kind of infinite number of animistic spirits?  For all we know the Big Bang could be what happens when a celestial Mike fires up the misaligned cosmic ball mill.

Or maybe it just seems like our nature drives us towards monotheism because I live in a culture/hemisphere that has had a lot of contact with monotheism throughout history?

It was pretty much just one sun baked desert tribe that made the leap from "Our god is better than your god" to "Our god is perfect in ways we can't even describe. Your god just plain doesn't exist." The practice of telling people that their god(s) don't exist became extremely popular over the next couple millennia, to the point where people would seek out new territories on the off chance they could discover people and tell them their god(s) don't exist. Then said people got really good at sailing to new territories, and now the various empires of "Knock, knock, your god is fake" control most of Europe, Africa, the Americas, and dryer and colder parts of Asia.

The surviving major power bases of polytheism, pantheism, and functional atheism ("Gods are very real, but they play no part in salvation/enlightenment) are all in Asia. India traditionally hasn't been very evangelical, except for Buddhism. China recently went through a phase where it decided to disbelieve in gods, agriculture, and economics all at the same time, and it's taking some time for them and their neighbors to recover from the entirely predictable results of that.

Follow-up to add:
The new wave atheists who do nothing but go around telling people they're stupid for believing in g/God(s) can thus be thought of as the 4th Abrahamic religion, taking the seed idea of "{God} doesn't exist" from monotheism and extending it to its logical conclusion of no god existing.

Small a atheism: I hold no beliefs in deities.
Large A Atheism: I hold no beliefs in deities and that's the no-God's honest Truth.

Kai's Atheism: I hold no beliefs in deities, and discovered that there were more important things to care about after making that choice, namely the well being of other humans. And anyone who doesn't like my use of the word can wank off. That's the no-God's honest Truth.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Golden Applesauce

Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 02:11:17 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 25, 2013, 02:05:08 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 12:56:08 AM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on October 25, 2013, 12:53:26 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 25, 2013, 12:51:06 AM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on October 25, 2013, 12:43:30 AM
See, I think the idea that the universe has to contain purpose is a strange belief. But there's a reason why I never bring this shit up in polite conversation so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

The universe contains more than enough purpose to blow my mind without ever involving anything supernatural. We don't stand a chance of understanding even our own tiny corner of the universe, let alone the fantastic order that is the rest of it. Ever. Let alone why or whether there even is a reason. IMO.

Agreed, though I was using the word "purpose" more in the context of agency.

For all I know, we're all part of a much larger organism that has agency. I think Kai has mentioned something along those lines in the past as well, as have many others in other contexts.

Although I doubt such an organism would be any more conscious of its cellular processes than we are of ours.

I'm willing to be shown wrong, but this superorganism agent sounds a lot like constructions philosophy majors come up with when they want a diety that is buzzword-compatible with what they think their friends do in science class, whose existence they can defend pedantically in class, but is ultimately meaningless and of no consequence to humans even if true.

Does believing that a higher level structures humans are a part of can be meaningfully described as an organism, and that said organism has agency, change anything about the way you live your life? For all the flack religions get about their beliefs not bing falsifiable, they do impact their followers' behavior. If there is a god that is a the ultimate source of truth about how humans should behave, it is of cosmic importance that humans know what that god wants them to do. Abrahamic religions devote considerable resources to that task. If the universe and everything in it are all reflections of a unified source, then self reflection and purifying yourself really does improve the whole universe. Buddhists and some Hindus spend a lot of time meditating. If there really is an afterlife based on your successes in this world, then it makes sense to bury people with lots of really cool grave goods. That's exactly what we find when we crack open burial sites across the ancient world.

What does all this purpose and agency floating around in the universe imply about what you think or do, besides feel more spiritually connected than those poor, insecure atheists?

How could I, or anyone, show you wrong about something that isn't even a hypothesis so much as airy speculations? I neither believe nor disbelieve in the idea that life as we know it is part of a larger living organism with agency, though I will say that life as we know it contributes to ever-larger systems, and that is observable. I have no idea what happens on a scale larger than we can observe, and as I mentioned previously I have little reason to care.

You can have "spiritual connection", which I think is better simply termed "connection", without faith or belief in deities or purpose or a "higher agency".

Sorry, I misread you. ECH said that he thought believing the universe having purpose was strange, and you responded by asserting that the universe has lots of purpose without really explaining why. I thought you were going somewhere with it.
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.