Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[East Coast Hustle]

Willpower is one of the most effective faculties to possess. No end of "genuine" magical literature will agree with this very fact. The tarot for example has a whole suite dedicated only to swords or willpower as the symbol represents.

I think my point is that if you develop your willpower sufficiently, you don't need symbolism. Hence I find the idea of the tarot deck placing such an emphasis on willpower quite ironic.

[East Coast Hustle]

[M]y personal method is a combination of willpower and self-discipline. no need to trick myself into anything, just making a decision to alter the way I think... but there's certainly no bullshit or trickery involved and I have always been able to effect the change of mindset that I desire provided I use my will and self-discipline to do so.

You're just using different words.  Trick/alter, what's the difference?  The point is that your method of self-reinforcement is no different than a sigil (incidentally, I have no idea what a sigil is, like a circle or something?).

You call it self discipline, other people call it the Holy Spirit, other people call it sigils.  You call those other people weak minded, but they are no more weak minded than you are.  You rely on your "Self" and that Self's discipline, and this is a nice and tidy piece of bullshit in its own right.  What is a self anyway?

You have your illusions, and people who do magic have their own.  It all does get easier with repetition, sure.  But when patting yourself on the back like you're some kind of John Galt self-made wunderkind that figured out something that is eluding the rest of us, that's just your own special brand of self-deception.  Enjoy!  

you honestly don't understand the difference between tricking yourself and willfully altering your own mindset?

seriously?

because that's kind of sad.

ETA: the entire POINT is that I'm NOT laboring under illusions when I choose to effect a change within my own mind, and I'm certainly not patting myself on the back over anything. That would be like seeing a room full of retards and congratulating myself because I can tie my own shoes. That so many people ITT are, apparently, the "retards" in that metaphor gives me no cause to celebrate.

[East Coast Hustle]

And FWIW, there are no shortage of people here who feel the same way about this subject that I do, they've just gotten tired of this tired argument, whereas I am bored and jobless and have nothing better to do with my time than argue with idiots such as yourself.

as an addendum, I'd like to point out that when you don't use trickery and self-deception to effect changes in your own mind, you drastically lower the risk of becoming one of those deluded morons who begins to think they can cause non-local effects with their crutch ritual/sigil/channeling of the holy spirit/whatever.

[Salty]

The swords represent thought or pure intellect. The wands represent will.

A wand is supposed to direct your intent, harness your desire into a straight line.

Personally, I prefer money, skill, or education.  

No wand is going to keep the horrors of life away, and if they can't, what then is the point?

In fact, what is the point? Satisfaction? Growth? Control?

[Shai Hulud]

you honestly don't understand the difference between tricking yourself and willfully altering your own mindset?

seriously?

because that's kind of sad.

Of course I understand the difference.  What's shocking is that you can't see the similarities.  I'm not trying to shit on your parade, I sincerely hope that you enjoy feeling like your particular illusions are superior to those of others.  That's not to say that one of them is right and one is wrong, or that both are right.  Each person defines "right" for themselves.  But I'm not going to roll over and start saying that your "self reliance" bullshit is any better than a magician's bullshit, especially when you can't give any cogent argument to that effect, just ad hominem fallacies and straw men.

I realize some people might be bored of this thread but I just started on page 15 and am ready to go.  In my view this is not an argument about right or wrong but about tolerance and acceptance of others worldviews, seeing that they are all fundamentally equal.  If you can prove me wrong I'd like to see it, but you'll have to show me how your self programming through "self-reliance" is somehow fundamentally different from self-programming through a sigil.  Your method is not "true" just because you do not use certain methods that are categorized as "magic."  In fact you keep using an analogy to you mind as if it is some sort of computer, like you can think thoughts in binary and program yourself with if-then statements.  How exactly is this true?  How is it more true than using the metaphor of a sigil, etc.  You use the language of science to dress up your bullshit illusions and call them Truth, others use the language of magic you call them weak minded.  Do you see the incongruity there?

[East Coast Hustle]

Each person defines "right" for themselves.

In my view this is not an argument about right or wrong but about tolerance and acceptance of others worldviews, seeing that they are all fundamentally equal.

aaaand....we're done having a serious conversation.

here's an ad hominem attack for you: the parts of your post that I quoted are fucking retarded. please take your relativist bullshit elsewhere.

[Shai Hulud]

here's an ad hominem attack for you: the parts of your post that I quoted are fucking retarded. please take your relativist bullshit elsewhere.

And here's one for you, you have no capacity to have a logical argument.  If you did, you really wouldn't have any problem when somebody like me comes along to play devil's advocate.  Honestly, you have a much easier position to defend than I do, but have made only precious few intelligent comments and not enough to add up to an intelligent argument.  Glad we're done talking about this, anybody else have something worthwhile to say?

[Bu🤠ns]

I might. 

I don't particularly follow the "all worldviews are equal" point of view.  Maybe in the sense that all worldviews are worldviews.  But in what terms are they equal?  Which parts align?

I can see the usefulness of possibly looking at various worldviews and trying to determine an underlying thread of commonality but equal? 

I have a hard time swallowing that one without more information.

[Shai Hulud]

I might. 

I don't particularly follow the "all worldviews are equal" point of view.  Maybe in the sense that all worldviews are worldviews.  But in what terms are they equal?  Which parts align?

I can see the usefulness of possibly looking at various worldviews and trying to determine an underlying thread of commonality but equal? 

I have a hard time swallowing that one without more information.

Thanks Burns!  I agree, thats sounds pretty tough to defend and I didn't really make that point very thoroughly.  My point there is that all worldviews are arrived at in the same way.  Whether you're a stone cold rationalist or a mystic, the interaction between your mind and the world is equally predicated on your worldview.  Does that make sense?

[East Coast Hustle]

here's an ad hominem attack for you: the parts of your post that I quoted are fucking retarded. please take your relativist bullshit elsewhere.

And here's one for you, you have no capacity to have a logical argument.  If you did, you really wouldn't have any problem when somebody like me comes along to play devil's advocate.  Honestly, you have a much easier position to defend than I do, but have made only precious few intelligent comments and not enough to add up to an intelligent argument.  Glad we're done talking about this, anybody else have something worthwhile to say?

that's not an ad hominem attack, it's a critique of my writing style. an ad hominem attack is when I tell you you're a fucking idiot for actually thinking that all worldviews are equal.

as for your critique of my writing style, you may be right. It's difficult for me to formulate a point-by-point argument to counter an argument that I view as not only worthless, but so obviously worthless that it should hardly need to be articulated why. It's like trying to form a point-by-point argument as to why child pornography is wrong.

[The Johnny]

I might. 

I don't particularly follow the "all worldviews are equal" point of view.  Maybe in the sense that all worldviews are worldviews.  But in what terms are they equal?  Which parts align?

I can see the usefulness of possibly looking at various worldviews and trying to determine an underlying thread of commonality but equal? 

I have a hard time swallowing that one without more information.

Thanks Burns!  I agree, thats sounds pretty tough to defend and I didn't really make that point very thoroughly.  My point there is that all worldviews are arrived at in the same way.  Whether you're a stone cold rationalist or a mystic, the interaction between your mind and the world is equally predicated on your worldview.  Does that make sense?

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

[Shai Hulud]

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

Well said!
[Edit: Even if it is your evil alter ego, I stand by it!]

[Salty]

This thread was started to mock people who put on funny hats and chant enochian to get laid, not attack or defend any particular worldview. Whatever that is.

Just sayin'.
Meanwhile:
PLEASE CONTINUE.
          /

[Shai Hulud]

This thread was started to mock people who put on funny hats and chant enochian to get laid

That's why I take it so personally!  I am all about the funny hats.

[The Johnny]

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

Well said!

Im sorry, that was sarcastic.

We all know we are gonna die, and i think the majority fears it.

Religion is a rationalization for that fear (when we die, we go to this big garden with candy and sluts).

And i only get this big fucking anxiety that fuels my cigarrette addiction and hedonistic behaviour.