Allow Me To Be Perfectly Frank...

[Cainad (dec.)]

I do not understand the motivation behind most spiritual inquiry.

Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I admit that I spend a great deal of time reading about and trying to understand the nature of religion and belief (which are not the same thing, and I would highly recommend The Religious Case Against Belief by James P. Carse to anyone who wants to know what the hell I mean by that), but the nature of that question eludes me. In my mind, the ultimate question is not "Why are we here?", instead it's "What the hell kind of a question is that?"

What do people mean when they ask this question? From my perspective, it has no relevance or bearing on anything; it is inanity at it's highest. Yet many people will spend their lives looking for the "answer" to this meaningless question, and many will spend their lives touting that they have found it. However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.

Seriously, did no one but me get the joke about "The Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything" in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? They built the most advanced supercomputer ever to give them the answer to this question, and the supposed "true" answer was 42. Then they had to build another, bigger supercomputer to give them the actual question, so that the answer would make sense. Get it? It's funny because the people looking for the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything didn't know what the hell they were actually asking for! Just like in real life!

People often talk about "purpose" and "meaning." They talk about needing a purpose, or that life would be meaningless without God or whatever spiritual entity they are concerned with. I don't get it. If there ever was a "fall from grace," it was the loss of our ability to have the nerve to face life with some sense of personal dignity and authority over ourselves. Why do people need to have a purpose assigned to them, and how can one be so asinine as to think that a dream, an epiphany, or simply a moment of mania is a message from a Greater Power™ telling them what to do with their lives? That kind of thinking is for people who took The Alchemist seriously.

If you can't assign a purpose to yourself, or just LIVE and be happy doing whatever the fuck you feel like at any given time, then you are dragging your knuckles. Walk upright and be a human being, damn it all. Have enough self-respect and courage to face life and say "Whatever I do in life, I do under my own will and by my own authority."

Please. You people are so terribly confounding and annoying when you blather on about "purpose" and "meaning" and "Why," and then look down on people like me who, quite frankly, don't see why those things are of such concern to you. Maybe you'd start being more satisfied with yourself if you started asking different questions, rather than beating your head against the imaginary brick wall that is "Why are we here?"

[Jenne]

I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad.  That's HUMAN.  Like an itch on your balls.

I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.

What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation.  Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.

[Cainad (dec.)]

I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad.  That's HUMAN.  Like an itch on your balls.

For some. What itches my balls are people (I don't mean you, of course) who behave as if having existential dilemmas is the only worthwhile pursuit of an intelligent human being.

I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.

Maybe not, but I said that it's asinine to assume that a dream or moment of inspiration somehow equals attention from a higher power, assigning you a "purpose" in life. If it inspires you to CREATE a purpose for yourself, then more power to you.

What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation.  Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Maybe I just need to go to bed, but can you clarify the "it" for me in the second sentence there?

[East Coast Hustle]

fucking RAH!

best post on PD in the last year, at least.

[Jenne]

I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad.  That's HUMAN.  Like an itch on your balls.

For some. What itches my balls are people (I don't mean you, of course) who behave as if having existential dilemmas is the only worthwhile pursuit of an intelligent human being.

I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.

Maybe not, but I said that it's asinine to assume that a dream or moment of inspiration somehow equals attention from a higher power, assigning you a "purpose" in life. If it inspires you to CREATE a purpose for yourself, then more power to you.

What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation.  Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Maybe I just need to go to bed, but can you clarify the "it" for me in the second sentence there?

Well, as to the first, I understand--now that I no longer ascribe to said notions, you're right--it's annoying and irritating in the extreme.  But I understand why they do it even in the face of knowing what we know now through science and more worldly experiences.  When religion was drummed up out of the skulls of mankind, we were little more than ook-ook monkeys who didn't have an understanding of anything--so to explain it as "magic" and "unknowable" made sense.

Now, we know there will always be those things that don't make sense, simply because we lack the knowledge or capacity to understand, not because they are inherently unknowable.

That being said, those who do what you say above, put their very existence into the basket of deity or deities, do so because they choose to.  To me, that's a cultural thing.  It's an adaptation of lifestyle, if you will, and it makes their world go round.  It's no different, in my opinion, than being a vegetarian, choosing cruelty-free products, or any other "way of life" philosophical bent.

It's when they use it to be an ass or keep others from having the same freedoms to do and believe as they wish that it pisses me off.  But I have no problems with those who choose to think as such.  It doesn't harm me, and it usually means this person will have a moral compass or other that I will in some way identify with or at least understand to a degree because I grew up with something similar.

The "it" is understanding, I guess...understanding the nature of the existential question that is somehow religious for some, and not for others.

[Roo]

Firstly:


Secondly:

I'm not sure what people are expecting to find when they ask "why are we here?". Maybe some are hoping that they'll discover a great universal secret. But I think most are just trying to fill a sort of emptiness inside. A lot of days, just going through the motions isn't enough. Some people give and give, volunteering their time and energy with churches and social service programs and animal rescues, and at the end of the day, feel just as disillusioned as before. Some people take and take, buying and consuming, amassing piles of stuff. Some people just sit on their couch and get high, whilst they ponder the meaning of life. I think they're all missing the point.

Which is not to say that I haven't spent my own time pondering the meaning of life...

When I was about 15, I was horribly depressed and began questioning the purpose of being here. I was obsessed with finding the answer to that question; trying to come up with a reason to either off myself or get un-depressed. One January night, I decided to sit out on the back steps of my parents' house, and ponder it. Out of this quasi-meditation came two things. One, I distinctly heard the words "to love, learn and grow" after asking "why are we here?" for the zillionth time. And two, I felt as if someone had wrapped their arms around me and given me a great big hug. Maybe I just answered my own question, and maybe I got so cold that I felt warm, but either way, I felt comforted and satisfied with that answer.

What I took the love, learn and grow thing to mean is that we're here to have relationships with ourselves and the people, animals, and things around us. We're supposed to learn from and through that...and ideally, we'll grow as human beings. Anything else is just details. 

But that's just my answer. It might not have any real meaning to someone else, and that's fine. "Why are we here?" is the sort of question that each individual has to figure out for themself, because it's not some mysterious universal secret that we're trying to discover. It's just the sort of question that gets asked when a person finds themself with too much time on their hands, or too little mental stimulation. Like mental solitaire, it keeps the wheels greased and helps the time pass.

Also wanted to say: Your answers in the other thread were spot on. I laughed, rather than taking offense, because what you said is so true. We're here because we're here. Things are the way they are because they're not some other way. You can assign any meaning you like to it, but starting from the position of accepting what is, is better than starting at the end and working backwards.

[Adios]

Very nice rant.

I am here to fish.
The fish are here to be fished.
The water is here to hold the fish.
The earth is here to hold the water.


Life solved.

[Cramulus]

<devil's advocate>

There's more to spiritual inquiry than pondering the meaning of existence. And while I agree, generally one's time is probably spent doing stuff other than waxing philosophic from a gross lotus position, there are still some spiritual questions that effect our day to day lives -- or at least mine.

Am I anything other than dust and an eclectic collection of baggage stuck to a kernel called "I Am"? A brief ripple on the wild sea of humanity?

How can we say we have Free Will when we live in a physically mechanical universe and our consciousness is made up of a physical nervous system?

Those two questions really itch me, and my attitudes towards them have a profound impact on how I act in day to day life.


And then there's morality, which some feel is a spiritual issue. I don't think we're wasting time when we debate these things - afterall, what does "theft" mean in a digital context? I was in a philosophy class that had a handfull of elderly people. Theyweren't interested in the class at all except in matters that had to do with the soul. Reminds me of that old joke - why do people get really religious at the end of their lives? They're basically cramming for finals. I had to wonder if they made these inquiries of the soul out of fear. Maybe I will have need for these questions as I approach the end of my life.

Note that nowhere here am I ascribing any "answers" to a higher authority than myself.

[Eve]

Well done, Cainad.

I think people are beside themselves trying to figure the "Why are we here?" out because they feel they need a reason, some kind of justification, for all the effort they put into living. Many people need to know that there is something worth fighting for, so to speak, or it begins to be an issue of "what's the point?" and "why even bother?" (and so on). We know "why are we here?" is pointless, but I'm guessing they haven't figured out the bigger and better questions yet.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

This is a great rant Cainad.

However, I dunno if I'd say that looking for The Meaning of Life is any more or less valuable than anything else. I mean, if we're an accidental collection of water, bits of minerals and amino acids.. and some electricity, then there's no real value to doing anything. Helping other random accidental collections of biomass? Investigating the big bang that made the accidental collections of biomass? Collectiong bits of paper that tell other accidental collections of biomass how much you're worth?

How are any of those more valid or valuable ways of spending your time?

Maybe, an argument for pure hedonism would fit... there's no meaning to life, so go have fun till its over... but for many people that's ended in feeling a lack of fulfillment.

So I agree, it seems dumb to ask The Big Question, even if you have Deep Thought around. But is it any worse than anything else?

One of the things I got from H2G2 was that sort of feeling... even after Deep Thought is gone, even after the scrabble letters spelled out obvious random math question... The story continued. Not continued down a path of usefulness... but path after path of nonsense and inanity. Poor Arthur's one feeling of peace and fulfillment comes when he's making sandwiches for a living. Yet, he can't stay there... he's whisked off to yet more weirdness and fail.

I've also considered why DA had a 'message from God'... the first part of the series almost destroys the concept of any meaning to these peoples existence. Yet, he still puts a God in place, he still has a Creator, people still go on pilgrimages across the galaxy to see the message (even though someone could just take a picture to show at Milliways ).

Maybe there is NO meaing to life. But, maybe for at least some humans, its the path, the pilgrimage, the road they travel looking for that meaning, which gives them some meaning to their life. The final message from God may be a disappointment... but if the search for that message gets them through life, then its not meaningless, is it?

[Lymantria Dispar]

Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"

Most mundane things in life, such as particle accelerators, ball point pens and jelly sandwiches, have meaning and serve a purpose. The concept that 'life, the universe and everything' (LU&E) has meaning & purpose is a natural extension of everyday experience. I posit, however, that this is a mistake in thinking. The purpose contained in worldly things is assigned by the observer. (Observer created universe?) Purpose is not necessarily inherent in the object itself. Thus, the 'answer' to the LU&E question will be different for each individual.

For me, I think I am here to collect experiences. I sometimes think of Uncle Al's essay on the 0=2 Equation in Magick Without Tears http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html, especially the passage where he references the footnote from Liber ABA "Imagine that each atom of each element possesses the memory of all his adventures in combination.  By the way, that atom (fortified with that memory) would not be the same atom; yet it is, because it has gained nothing from anywhere except this memory.  Therefore, by the lapse of time, and by virtue of memory, a thing could become something more than itself; thus a real development is possible."

This line of thought should be patently obvious, but some people cannot accept it as it has no specific goal and seems more like a means rather than an end. People want concrete and authoritative answers but they'll reject one line of thought after another if it doesn't fit within their preconceived framework.

However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.

I wouldn't say so much that the question is flawed, but rather that the LU&E question has no single answer and is therefore meaningless when asked in it's broadest context. It has meaning on an individual level, but not absolute meaning.

Your mileage may vary.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"

Most mundane things in life, such as particle accelerators, ball point pens and jelly sandwiches, have meaning and serve a purpose. The concept that 'life, the universe and everything' (LU&E) has meaning & purpose is a natural extension of everyday experience. I posit, however, that this is a mistake in thinking. The purpose contained in worldly things is assigned by the observer. (Observer created universe?) Purpose is not necessarily inherent in the object itself. Thus, the 'answer' to the LU&E question will be different for each individual.

For me, I think I am here to collect experiences. I sometimes think of Uncle Al's essay on the 0=2 Equation in Magick Without Tears http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html, especially the passage where he references the footnote from Liber ABA "Imagine that each atom of each element possesses the memory of all his adventures in combination.  By the way, that atom (fortified with that memory) would not be the same atom; yet it is, because it has gained nothing from anywhere except this memory.  Therefore, by the lapse of time, and by virtue of memory, a thing could become something more than itself; thus a real development is possible."

This line of thought should be patently obvious, but some people cannot accept it as it has no specific goal and seems more like a means rather than an end. People want concrete and authoritative answers but they'll reject one line of thought after another if it doesn't fit within their preconceived framework.

However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.

I wouldn't say so much that the question is flawed, but rather that the LU&E question has no single answer and is therefore meaningless when asked in it's broadest context. It has meaning on an individual level, but not absolute meaning.

Your mileage may vary.

NICE!

So the 'meaning' of a given life, may depend on the experiential existence of that life.

Also, maybe that meaning changes based on new experiential data.

The meaning of Life for me once was about telling other people about God before their time ran out. Then after more experiences it changed to "No Meaning In Life" and since then it's changed again to "The Meaning of Life is to experience as much as possible while living" which showed up in my 'chaos magic' phase

[Cainad (dec.)]

<devil's advocate>

There's more to spiritual inquiry than pondering the meaning of existence. And while I agree, generally one's time is probably spent doing stuff other than waxing philosophic from a gross lotus position, there are still some spiritual questions that effect our day to day lives -- or at least mine.

Am I anything other than dust and an eclectic collection of baggage stuck to a kernel called "I Am"? A brief ripple on the wild sea of humanity?

How can we say we have Free Will when we live in a physically mechanical universe and our consciousness is made up of a physical nervous system?

Those two questions really itch me, and my attitudes towards them have a profound impact on how I act in day to day life.


And then there's morality, which some feel is a spiritual issue. I don't think we're wasting time when we debate these things - afterall, what does "theft" mean in a digital context? I was in a philosophy class that had a handfull of elderly people. Theyweren't interested in the class at all except in matters that had to do with the soul. Reminds me of that old joke - why do people get really religious at the end of their lives? They're basically cramming for finals. I had to wonder if they made these inquiries of the soul out of fear. Maybe I will have need for these questions as I approach the end of my life.

Note that nowhere here am I ascribing any "answers" to a higher authority than myself.

I do not understand the motivation behind most spiritual inquiry.

Granted, it was probably a misplaced use of the word "most," but in any case I'm not trying to dissmiss all spiritual inquiry. If that was the case I never would have gotten into Discordja or the BIP.

When the questions are phrased in such a way that they actually have some context, such as the ones you mentioned, that's one thing. It's quite another when people take an obnoxiously abstract question, pull an answer out of their ass, and then expect other people to ask the same question and get the same answer. That's why I made the reference to HHGTTG: a pointless question gets a pointless answer (or more specifically, a non-question gets a non-answer).

I guess all I really want this rant to accomplish is to persuade people to not fart around with existential mental fappery (it's all fun and games until you turn into a schmuck) and ask meaningful questions that don't require a level 20 Wizard with specialization in Conjuration-Out-Of-The-Ass to answer.



Also, on a completely different note, I really dislike The Alchemist. It's a sappy feel-good story that seems to advocate a worldview that I consider to be completely bogus and Law-of-Fives-ish. Not there's anything wrong with reading sappy feel-good stories that seem to advocate a worldview that I consider to be completely bogus and Law-of-Fives-ish; just don't expect me to take your belief system very seriously if you think that way.

[Lymantria Dispar]

So the 'meaning' of a given life, may depend on the experiential existence of that life.

Also, maybe that meaning changes based on new experiential data.

Well said.

I suppose we're talking about Existentialism then: "Each man and each woman creates the essence (meaning) of his and her life; life is not determined by a supernatural god or an earthly authority, one is free." (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life)

Arthur Schopenhauer answered: "What is the meaning of life?" by determining that one's life reflects one's will. Hmmm...

But to get back to the original post, Cainad was referring to the people who seek such meaning, and how such a search would ultimately prove fruitless as there is no external 'meaning of LU&F' to seek. Hey, go have a beer & enjoy life - don't worry about meaningless questions.

[Iron Sulfide]

{reduced to simple propositions}:

i think humans, as tool makers and pattern finders, have an innate tendency to find "meaning" and "purpose."

a tool has a use. it is used to make things or manipulate them somehow. the things made or manipulated, in turn, serve some function. we see a pattern in this, and ask, "if tools serve a purpose, and we use tools, are we to serve some purpose?"

following that perceived pattern backwards, we can only imagine the sequence that precedes us, and create ideas like god, etc.

the question could be rephrased: am i a tool? who uses this tool? what is this tool used for?

not that that line of questioning is any more useful.


as for the real meaning of life:

gratuitous images of penises.

/monthy python