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Evolution proven right yet again

Started by Iason Ouabache, June 26, 2008, 01:30:47 AM

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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 30, 2008, 03:52:16 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 03:27:12 PM

Oh no, I have to disagree... having once been a Fundie. I was a good student in school, I got good grades in Science, but I was sure that Evolution was a crock of shit. I absolutely thought that "Missing Link" was a valid argument and that there was no real evidence of one animal turning into another. Of course, I also believed that Carbon Dating was a fraud and that pillow lava had been found on Mt. Ararat proving that it was once covered in water.


you actually proved my point
what their evidence states is unrealistic cause having bearing in reality will never be part of the thought process
God is all
having fundies except evidence is like having Pushtruns march for womens right
it just doesn't factor into the equation
they don't need to fool themselves cause this life means nothing to what they see as the "ultimate truth"


Err, my comment was in response to:
Quotei suspect many of them know thats misrepresenting the theory and i really believe many of them know they are wrong

BEyond that, yeah... scientific evidence has little value in their model of reality.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Thurnez Isa

ok it was grammer stupidity on my part
in my defence im starting my packing here

i didn't mean they are wrong in general against the theory but in with the evidence that is presented (though many of them don't care if they think the theory is right or not)
ie. "quote mining" is used quite a bit in their little videos - which is misrepresenting what someone said by taking a line of context to try to make it look like this person disagrees with evolution when in fact they maybe only challenging one specific idea or setting up an arguement in support of evolution... obvioulsy this is complete dishonesty and they know what they are saying is wrong, but they don't care
science, evidence and the physical world is for us unsaved heathens

BTW: most of the new stuff written by the fundies right now are not a total attack on biology but an attack on astronomy... I suspect physics will be next
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

Triple Zero

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 28, 2008, 03:34:50 AM
many of them describe evolution as if species can cross over into different linages, and use that idea as proof against evolution ... ie and dog/penquin
and i suspect many of them know thats misrepresenting the theory and i really believe many of them know they are wrong
and you know what I dont think they care
when you have so much of your emotions and life invested in an abstraction truth and rational doesn't even factor into the equation

Oh no, I have to disagree... having once been a Fundie. I was a good student in school, I got good grades in Science, but I was sure that Evolution was a crock of shit. I absolutely thought that "Missing Link" was a valid argument and that there was no real evidence of one animal turning into another. Of course, I also believed that Carbon Dating was a fraud and that pillow lava had been found on Mt. Ararat proving that it was once covered in water.

Oh and I absolutely believed that there was secular evidence for Jesus.

i can't believe you'd get very far with science (why the uppercase, btw?) with a world view like that.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: triple zero on June 30, 2008, 09:19:06 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 28, 2008, 03:34:50 AM
many of them describe evolution as if species can cross over into different linages, and use that idea as proof against evolution ... ie and dog/penquin
and i suspect many of them know thats misrepresenting the theory and i really believe many of them know they are wrong
and you know what I dont think they care
when you have so much of your emotions and life invested in an abstraction truth and rational doesn't even factor into the equation

Oh no, I have to disagree... having once been a Fundie. I was a good student in school, I got good grades in Science, but I was sure that Evolution was a crock of shit. I absolutely thought that "Missing Link" was a valid argument and that there was no real evidence of one animal turning into another. Of course, I also believed that Carbon Dating was a fraud and that pillow lava had been found on Mt. Ararat proving that it was once covered in water.

Oh and I absolutely believed that there was secular evidence for Jesus.

i can't believe you'd get very far with science (why the uppercase, btw?) with a world view like that.

that was Science as in Science the name of the class you take in school.

Acutally, my brain worked great for most aspects of the class material, I could grok cellular structure, atomic structure, geology, biology everything except for the "lightning hit the ocean and BAM there was a protein+1,000,000,000... = Humans (obvious short silly description is obvious and silly). JW's consider themselves quite rational as compared to "Christendom". For example, they think that God made the world in Seven Days... but that "days" is just a reference to some period of time (like "Back in my grandfather's day"). So they accept that the universe may be billions of years old. They even accept that a few core species could be the progenitors of the modern day species. They don't accept that one species could turn into another, or that humans have been around for more than 6 or 7 thousand years.

Beyond that, they buy into most scientific thought... though occasionally they get pissy about some things. My Dad got extremely upset when I talked about black holes being dead stars, since according to the Bible, GOd knows every star by name, they must OBVIOUSLY never die.

I thought that was a rather silly line of reasoning, even at the time. I figured I had a name, but that didn't make me immortal.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Triple Zero

hm, okay i understand. a very good friend of mine is also JW, and when i asked him, he kinda told the same story. but it was late and, i think he changed the subject :) but it doesnt really matter
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Iason Ouabache

UPDATE:  Andy Schlafly is now trying to find a way to sue Lenski into giving him all of the data even though Lenski said that he would gladly give the data to a qualified biologist. 

http://acandidworld.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/lenski-redux-schlafly-will-sue/
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
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Iason Ouabache

#21
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 09:41:18 PM
Quote from: triple zero on June 30, 2008, 09:19:06 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 28, 2008, 03:34:50 AM
many of them describe evolution as if species can cross over into different linages, and use that idea as proof against evolution ... ie and dog/penquin
and i suspect many of them know thats misrepresenting the theory and i really believe many of them know they are wrong
and you know what I dont think they care
when you have so much of your emotions and life invested in an abstraction truth and rational doesn't even factor into the equation

Oh no, I have to disagree... having once been a Fundie. I was a good student in school, I got good grades in Science, but I was sure that Evolution was a crock of shit. I absolutely thought that "Missing Link" was a valid argument and that there was no real evidence of one animal turning into another. Of course, I also believed that Carbon Dating was a fraud and that pillow lava had been found on Mt. Ararat proving that it was once covered in water.

Oh and I absolutely believed that there was secular evidence for Jesus.

i can't believe you'd get very far with science (why the uppercase, btw?) with a world view like that.

that was Science as in Science the name of the class you take in school.

Acutally, my brain worked great for most aspects of the class material, I could grok cellular structure, atomic structure, geology, biology everything except for the "lightning hit the ocean and BAM there was a protein+1,000,000,000... = Humans (obvious short silly description is obvious and silly). JW's consider themselves quite rational as compared to "Christendom". For example, they think that God made the world in Seven Days... but that "days" is just a reference to some period of time (like "Back in my grandfather's day"). So they accept that the universe may be billions of years old. They even accept that a few core species could be the progenitors of the modern day species. They don't accept that one species could turn into another, or that humans have been around for more than 6 or 7 thousand years.

Beyond that, they buy into most scientific thought... though occasionally they get pissy about some things. My Dad got extremely upset when I talked about black holes being dead stars, since according to the Bible, GOd knows every star by name, they must OBVIOUSLY never die.

I thought that was a rather silly line of reasoning, even at the time. I figured I had a name, but that didn't make me immortal.

I've spent waaaayyy too much time in Evolution/Creation forums over the last couple of years and I can confirm that there will always be a certain percentage of True Believers who would not change their mind if God came down and told them to their face that "Yes, the Big Bang and all of Evolution are (for the most part) true."  There is no amount of evidence in the world that would convince them that they are wrong because it would completely destroy their psyche.  They end up using every defense mechanism known to man to get out of admitting defeat. 

There is an interesting meme about it called "Morton's Demon":

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html

"When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data. Fortunately, I eventually realized that the demon was there and began to open the gate when he wasn't looking.

Morton's demon makes it possible for a person to have his own set of private facts which others are not privy to, allowing the YEC to construct a theory which is perfectly supported by the facts which the demon lets through the gate. And since these are the only facts known to the victim, he feels in his heart that he has explained everything. Indeed, the demon makes people feel morally superior and more knowledgeable than others."
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
    \
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Cain

Also known as the Law of Fives and confirmation bias.

BootyBay

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 28, 2008, 03:34:50 AM
many of them describe evolution as if species can cross over into different linages, and use that idea as proof against evolution ... ie and dog/penquin
and i suspect many of them know thats misrepresenting the theory and i really believe many of them know they are wrong
and you know what I dont think they care
when you have so much of your emotions and life invested in an abstraction truth and rational doesn't even factor into the equation

Oh no, I have to disagree... having once been a Fundie. I was a good student in school, I got good grades in Science, but I was sure that Evolution was a crock of shit. I absolutely thought that "Missing Link" was a valid argument and that there was no real evidence of one animal turning into another. Of course, I also believed that Carbon Dating was a fraud and that pillow lava had been found on Mt. Ararat proving that it was once covered in water.

Oh and I absolutely believed that there was secular evidence for Jesus.

The Reality Tunnel I lived in saw plenty of evidence to support these positions and no evidence to support the reverse. At this point, I've decided that evolution seems likely to be a key mechanism, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn 100 years from now that we're missing some huge hunks of what really happened (panspermia,  bdelloid rotifers carrying DNA from one entity to another playing Lincoln Logs with DNA, accidental trash dump from a passing space ship...) but that, I think, is because I fully expect to get another major surprise like I got when I suddenly stumbled on the supporting evidence for evolution.

In my experience, most fundies aren't fooling themselves... they simply have a very restrictive reality tunnel.

I'm with you on this one.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070210170623.htm  Possible explanation of the missing "missing link."
There are two kinds of people in this world.. Winners and losers.. I think we know which kind you are.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I don't know exactly what happened, or why, but once upon a time very recently I was absolutely convinced that life on earth was the result of extraterrestrial interference.

Maybe that was just one of my weird dreams, though.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cain

Quote from: Nigel on July 06, 2008, 02:15:25 PM
I don't know exactly what happened, or why, but once upon a time very recently I was absolutely convinced that life on earth was the result of extraterrestrial interference.

Maybe that was just one of my weird dreams, though.

Raelians/David Icke/Zacariah Sitchin also believe this theory.

It usually also involves cloning, Sumerian gods, bug-eyed aliens with anal probes and Reptilians.

Vene

Quote from: Cain on July 06, 2008, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 06, 2008, 02:15:25 PM
I don't know exactly what happened, or why, but once upon a time very recently I was absolutely convinced that life on earth was the result of extraterrestrial interference.

Maybe that was just one of my weird dreams, though.

Raelians/David Icke/Zacariah Sitchin also believe this theory.

It usually also involves cloning, Sumerian gods, bug-eyed aliens with anal probes and Reptilians.
They're close.  But it's actually genetic engineering, the gods are bug-eyed, and the Reptilians are anally probing the aliens.

BootyBay

Quote from: Nigel on July 06, 2008, 02:15:25 PM
I don't know exactly what happened, or why, but once upon a time very recently I was absolutely convinced that life on earth was the result of extraterrestrial interference.

Maybe that was just one of my weird dreams, though.

You might still be right.  Nobody knows for sure.
There are two kinds of people in this world.. Winners and losers.. I think we know which kind you are.

Thurnez Isa

#28
Quote from: BootyBay on July 08, 2008, 05:07:40 AM
Quote from: Nigel on July 06, 2008, 02:15:25 PM
I don't know exactly what happened, or why, but once upon a time very recently I was absolutely convinced that life on earth was the result of extraterrestrial interference.

Maybe that was just one of my weird dreams, though.

You might still be right.  Nobody knows for sure.

personally I would see the likelihood of that would be very, very, very low (though just for obvious practicality reasons - and there is no evidence of it and how would actually study that at this time) It's just not a practicle hypothesis at this time, and a little far fetched (though I would admit not 100 percent impossible)

now the idea that microbes could have first evolved on Mars then broke off to earth, now that makes a lot of sense.. since Mars was open to habitation earlier then the earth
and its more then possible that life is just easier to produce then we think.. just the right conditions and a small jolt
the problem lies that the right conditions, though they may not be very rare in the universe, the distances makes the opportunity to study it is quite difficult... though some answers may come from more core samples from Mars or if something really exiting happens with a probe their planing to send to Europa, though that is suppose to get off the ground in 2011 i heard they still having trouble with contamination concerns, and NASA made a lot of noise about it a few years ago then kind of stoped as of lately, which tells me at least there's something stalling the project
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

TheLastLump

Hell, Isa, that makes alot of sense. Imagination if, when those chunks of iron fell in those comets all those years ago, there were microbes and bacteria latched inside crevices where they were protected from the heat? Most of them fell- you guessed it- just before the Iron Age, but there could've been precursors that fell shortly before human creation.

To me, it seems ridiculous to think God made the Earth in a few days. I just think the scribes were dullwitted enough to be like, "What the hell is an aeon?! That's no amount of time I ever heard of... seven aeons... well, he's God, so he could do it in seven days if he wanted to. Hey, yeah! That works! Let's write that down..."

There's so many cracks in the Bible that I no longer even call myself Christian anymore- anyone who trusts a book that, for two hundred years, was solely able to be read by corrupt individuals and leaders who'd only benefit from having their citizens kept ignorant... is just foolish. It's like Kevin Smith hypothesized in that comedy, Dogma: Who knows what all's been altered and changed in it throughout the years? I still believe in God, but I believe he used Evolution as the tool to develop and alter life to the degrees necessary to let us survive.
"It's a dog-eat-dog world, Jesus, please holla back..." -The Game

doughboy359: Don't be angry cause you're a heretical pagan, we'll still accept you if you convert. Doughboy, on being a Catholic.