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Messages - Verbal Mike

#16
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: COOL KIDS KLUB
November 20, 2013, 10:00:53 PM
Did...did the other kids have to eat a bug too? :(
#17
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: COOL KIDS KLUB
November 20, 2013, 09:57:15 PM
So a year ago I was having weirdly specific connection problems for PD.COM only [true story!] so I just kind of stopped coming here.
Now this is the first thread I went into. Am I in?
#18
THIS is what I come back to?!
SRSLY, Roger!
#19
I get the impression that Mursi took a very active role and deserves a lot of credit. But then he went and nearly crowned himself dictator so we'll just see how long that lasts...
#20
:lulz:

From where I'm sitting, it seems like the pattern so far is a repeat of 2008-9 (Operation Cast Lead, in which we killed some 700-1000 civilians.) It works like this: Air Force gets sent in for surgical strikes against Hamas targets. In the first day or two, there are hardly any civilian casualties. Then the more isolated targets have all been reduced to dust and the Air Force begins targeting Hamas targets in densely-populated areas, increasing civilian casualties. Then they get sloppy and murder a whole innocent family because someone didn't double-check they were hitting the right house.

The only difference as far as I can tell, apart from the fact the IDF has not started the imminent ground invasion so far, is that targeting has become a bit more accurate. And I'm not entirely certain of that.
On the other hand, there's the major difference in Gazan missile range. This might not seem like a big deal to all y'all but here in Israel we're already used to ignoring the fuck out of the South from back in the day when all they suffered from was massive unemployment and pollution. The media and the public are treating the rockets on Tel Aviv like they're the first ones that even count. Like shit only just got real.

But on the Israeli public opinion front, there's a massive difference, in that this time, almost *everyone* seems to be apprehensive about the whole thing and outspokenly against a ground invasion. But it seems that Netanyahu is pulling the usual "peace talks" schtick of placing such high requirements that Hamas has no choice but to refuse the ceasefire.

I'm not optimistic about the outcome. Despite the public outcry, this is going to end like it started, as a tragicomic replay of Cast Lead, meaning obscene Pal civilian casualties to a handful of Israeli casualties, meaning continued hostilities on the Gazan border after the end of the massacre, and meaning increased Israeli isolation on the international front. My light at the end of the tunnel is that the elections might pull us a tad to the left this time, rather than to the far right like after Cast Lead.

(I sound detached because I'm trying not to scream. My sister lives in Tel Aviv and I'm going there on Wednesday, like I do every week. A bunch of my childhood friends are already, or are about to be, on Reserve military duty. And I'm very fond of this country and don't want it to become more hellish than it already is. At least I'm not worried about rockets on Jerusalem, where I am; that's not going to become a serious threat.)
#21
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: "Atheism+"
November 07, 2012, 09:51:12 AM
I don't think atheism-as-identity is truly defined by a lack of belief. I've been there, and I think it's rather defined by opposition to commonly held "truths" and belief systems, which seems to me quite a different thing than mere lack of belief. But atheists don't see it this way, and nor did I when I was one – I remember arguing fervently that "atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color", which is what atheists like to think of themselves.*

And try as I might, I also can't see a logical connection between the atheism part and the social equality part of "A+". Nonetheless, I'm glad to see struggles against discrimination in any community, hence I like that "A+" exists.

As for silencing minority opinions – I won't be surprised if they do, but the one thread I'm slowly reading through there shows a surprisingly good spirit of debate and respectful disagreement, even when it comes to the core of the community's purpose. I'm more than willing to chalk this up to early days – I won't be surprised if a couple months/years down the road, there's a ruthless orthodoxy silencing any opposition. It just doesn't seem to have gotten there yet.

*To mention another group that defines itself by opposition to the majority, but unlike atheism doesn't claim to define itself by absence of some belief, the Israeli Left seems to work this way in recent years. We have a certain set of common universalist values we claim to define ourselves by, but we're mainly defined by our opposition to core majority projects, like the Occupation.
#22
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / "Atheism+"
November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article.
#24
IJ, my young and inexperienced take on this, fwiw, is that you should be taking good care of yourself, not shitting on yourself, because you are needed and will be needed, and ripping yourself up over stuff is not going to make you any better-prepared for being who and what you have to be to people right now. But also that it's understandable that you're feeling like you are in that situation. Hang on in there.
#25
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Oh, Israel...
October 27, 2012, 05:26:40 PM
Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 05:09:51 PM
Thanks, Verbal Mike. I found this exchange educational and find nothing to disagree with. I did not know and find it alarming that your views don't have a single voice in the Knesset. Why did you decide to move to Israel is the logical question - if you are willing to discuss it.
I do have people who represent my views on the Palestinian and diplomatic issues in Knesset, just not many and none in the coalition.
I've mentioned elsewhere, I think, why I moved back, and it's not a permanent move (yet), and I don't want to derail this thread.
Too lazy to find where I might have mentioned it (my thread about the insurance-related dilemma I had about a month ago) or to start writing about it elsewhere right now.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 05:15:11 PM
Also, although I think we understand each other well enough, "fascist" is not the actual term we should have been using. "Racially discriminating", perhaps, or "apartheid" would have been more accurate. Bombing civilian populations for the crime of being nationals of a country taken over by an opressive dictatorship (or indeed the tactical advantage) qualifies, in my possibly unorthodox view.
I'm not interested in a discussion of semantics, but I stand by my statement that "Israel is in many ways a lot like a fascist state", while acknowledging that the other terms you have proposed are distinct from "fascist" and have bearing on the situation as well.
#26
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Oh, Israel...
October 27, 2012, 04:38:51 PM
Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on October 27, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
The Palestinians are under Israel's control even more firmly than are we Israelis. I find the statistic regarding them more interesting and important than that regarding Palestinian-Israelis.

I don't get this bit. Can you explain it? I re-read the OP article, and see no 49% wishing to deny the vote to Palestinians for any group. Am I being dense?
The Israeli regime controls the economy and lives of Palestinians in the West Bank even more firmly than it controls the lives of anyone living within the state's actual borders. Hence, the more interesting question to me is what happens with the West Bank Palestinians, not what happens with the Palestinian Israelis.
In the list of statistics at the end of the OP article: "69% object to giving Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank"

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
I acknowledge your point, though I do note that one country (Norway) has a significantly smaller population, while Austria and Hungary are rougly on par. However, the point I was trying to make is that surveys indicating widespread anti-semitism in Europe are published. At that time I did not look at the sample sizes.
You linked the ADL article in the same post as that in which you slammed the Dialog poll based on its sample size. Hence my questions on the matter.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
I've always wondered about these opinion polls, though. How do you make a sample of 500 people representative of 8 million?? Isn't there bias already in the fact that you are only going to interview people who are willing to talk to pollsters? As I noted, the pollsters in this country, coming out with results that often differ for a particular political party by 10 or even 15 percent for the same period, all claim to be using representative samples. So, I think, even if the polling firm in question is a reputable one and there is good reason to rule out intentional distortion, there is still the question of unconscious or indeed random bias.
Polling is often biased, for sure. But there's a kind of science behind it, the goal of which is to base polling data on representative samples. So good, honest pollsters actually know what exactly it takes to make a sample representative at minimum cost. That's their job. As far as I can tell, the sample size is not unusual and the truth is likely not far off from the survey results. Still, the article doesn't cite the margin of error, which is kinda clumsy of them.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
People buy into media that is easy to consume for them and which they find entertaining. The general population doesn't have many strongly held views on political and international affairs and is easily swayed by the media. This has been and is being amply demonstrated basically everywhere. Previously, we were not discussing international disagreement with Israeli state policy, but the hypothetical question of what would happen if a similar survey was published in an European country about Jews.
Okay, well, in my experience, it is very common for Israelis to be of the opinion that other nations (as whole nations, not as individuals – Israelis often see the world that way) (a) have a strong opinion about Jews and about Israel and (b) it is negative. The general sentiment is that some countries hide it better than others, but you're all flaming antisemites. Foreign individuals one meets who are nice and seem not so racist are explained away as outliers or as very good liars. This is reflected in the way the media talks about any comment on or portrayal of Israel in foreign media or discourse.

I may be exaggerating things slightly, but believe me, a whole lot of Israelis actually think everyone in the world is out to get us, and will grab up any random tidbit to "prove" that this or that nation or government is antisemitic.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on October 27, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
And yes, the Arab regimes are awful, that much is obvious. As you already noted, it's also kinda irrelevant in a discussion about Israel's treatment of minorities. Also obvious is the difficulty in resolving the conflict.

It's kinda irrelevant alright, but there is a bit of an indirect link, don't you think? I mean, those Arab regimes, they support the anti-Jewish variety of terrorism in Israel, don't they? I'm putting this as a non-loaded question: what would you like to see Israel, as a state, do?
That's a very difficult questions, especially as I am part of a marginalized political minority and thus spend more time thinking about how to sway public opinion here than what to have the state actually do. I have no effect on what the state does, because I am not represented by a single person in government on these issues.

But in a nutshell, I'd have Israel annex the West Bank, give Palestinians there Israeli citizenship, and establish a universalistic constitution. There might be some two-state steps on the way there, but that seems to me the only reasonable way out. Either way, there are many many "security" policies which Israel could change to make Palestinians' lives less miserable and give them less reason to want to murder us all. This could be done tomorrow, but voting Jewish Israelis usually don't care about this stuff, so the government has little incentive to do it. They have a lot of incentive to look tough, even when their policies actually weaken our position security-wise and diplomatically.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
I think the Western liberal summary of "Israel is a fascist state" boo-hoo is a bit of a misleading and extremely simplified gloss. As long as these people also acknowledge that the Allies, for instance, were fascist states for bombing the fuck out of large civilian populations during WWII, that can be alright. But, in my experience at least, the animosity is often directed exclusively at Israel. That I find hypocritical.
That's true, to a point, but people generally don't form overarching political-historical analyses of different regimes. Instead they respond to what the media tells them is going on, and for some reason Israel is an object of fascination across the Western world. Israel is in many ways a lot like a fascist state, even if some people only say so for the wrong reasons.

Edited to fix quotes.
#27
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Oh, Israel...
October 27, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
I am referring to this sentence from the article linked in the OP:

"A third of respondents believe that Israel's Arab citizens should be denied the vote"

I think it is quite clear  :)
The Palestinians are under Israel's control even more firmly than are we Israelis. I find the statistic regarding them more interesting and important than that regarding Palestinian-Israelis.
Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
The OP also states that this "survey" is based on 503 that is five hundred and three persons being questioned.

Laughable, I think. Here in Hungary, each political party has its own pet political polling company, and they all publish wildly different political polls, all based on "representative samples" about once every two months. Even their samples are twice to four times the size of this one.
You cited an ADL study with the same size of samples in much larger countries. You have not addressed this inconsistency.

And "Dialog" is one of Israel's biggest polling firms. I tried to google a little and see if they're affiliate with any party, and they appear to be cited by Left-wing paper Ha'aretz (who partner with them regularly) as well as Right-wing Likkud supporters.

When a respected and established polling firm in a sophisticated political system claims to use representative samples, you believe them. There's always a margin of error, but I see no basis for your derision and incredulity, except of course trying to seem discerning about stuff.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
I appreciate and defer to your experience of the jingoisation of the Israeli mainstream media. But I do not believe that mainstream media is a good indicator of the sentiments and opinions of a people. It is a good indicator of the sentiments and the opinions that the power elite would like the people to have. As has been discussed a great deal on this board, in the American context. Israel is no different.
This is true, to an extent. But It's also true that people buy into media that tells them what they want to hear, and the popularity of Yedioth and Ma'ariv speaks volumes about the currency of the views they print. That other views, possibly even prevalent ones, are marginalised, is obvious. But from my experience of actual Israeli people, the outrage over any international disagreement with our state is commonplace. My disgust at it is marginal, unusual, and gets me scorn.

Quote from: holist on October 27, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
Also, while i agree that the sort of ethnic cleansing you refer to has been practised far too long, I am not so sure about the "uninterrupted". I am pretty sure, on the other hand, that the extremists and the mainstream media you describe has its mirror images in the Arab world. Which, let me add, does not exonerate Israel the least bit... but, given that all those Jews are now there (and I wish they opted for Brazil in the heydays of zionism), what to do with the situation is something of a conundrum.
During the 47-48 War of Independence (an-Nakba, "the disaster"), whole villages were massacred/scared off/destroyed, whole areas of the country cleansed of Arabs. After the war ended, the Palestinians within Israeli got their citizenship, but were kept under martial law for about a decade, while property left behind by Arabs was handed out to Jews, and more and more Arab land was expropriated for Jewish use. There was, in fact, so much Arab land to redistribute, that the Jewish National Fund had to be given control over it to administrate its distribution. Many forests now cover the traces of what were once Arab Villages. The JNF continues its work to this day, and to my knowledge has never taken a break. I'm fuzzy on the specifics of the period between the end of martial law and the beginning of the Occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (about a decade) but the dispossession and slow ethnic cleansing that began almost immediately after their conquest is relatively well-known and is currently still accelerating.
Are you sure about it now?

And yes, the Arab regimes are awful, that much is obvious. As you already noted, it's also kinda irrelevant in a discussion about Israel's treatment of minorities. Also obvious is the difficulty in resolving the conflict.

You seem to be going on very little information here, so really, what is your point and why are you making it, holist?
#28
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Oh, Israel...
October 27, 2012, 12:44:57 PM
The OP link cites 47% of Jewish Israelis in favor of stripping Palestinian Israelis of their citizenship – a near majority. A clear majority (69%) are against Palestinians receiving citizenship if the West Bank were officially annexed.
The size of the sample is normal. Israel has 7 million citizens, about 6 million of them Jews. The ADL study you linked has a sample of 500 in each European country, most of which (except for Norway, I think) have a higher, even much higher population (in some cases, as in Germany, over 10 times the population).
So is 500 out of 6 million too small a sample, thus invalidating the ADL study as well, or is it a hugely significant sample, thus making the ADL study okay?
And which statistic are you referring to when you say a third is not a near majority?

I'm Jewish-Israeli, just moved back to Israel after 5 years in Germany, and have been following the happenings here for most of that time. The media I'm talking about are the mainstream media. Including the big established daily papers, Ha'aretz (Left, high-brow, broadsheet), Ma'ariv (center, tabloid), and Yedioth Aharonoth (center, tabloid, more tabloidy than Ma'ariv.) In some instances, all three publish pieces that would qualify as right-wing fringe in Europe. Mainstream TV news is basically the same, politically, perhaps with a more centrist-left leaning altogether.
The Israeli right-wing fringe media openly calls for explicitly Holocaust-like annihilation of the Palestinians or Arabs altogether. They're a different story altogether.

Ethnic cleansing of different sorts – always with the goal of "Judaizing" parts of the country – has been an uninterrupted part of Israeli security policy since the War of Independence in which the state was founded. This has thankfully not been the case with policy towards Jews in Europe in precisely the same period.
I have always felt safer as a Jew in Germany than in Israel. I'm sure I'd feel differently in Hungary, of course.
#29
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Oh, Israel...
October 26, 2012, 02:39:42 PM
holist: care to name an example?
From my experience, the Israeli media and sometimes even government start frothing whenever an anti-Zionist movie is shown in some other country, even on private channels, and tend to immediately call the whole country (e.g. Sweden or Turkey) anti-Semitic. And I don't recall any data about any European state in which a majority or near majority is in favor of denying Jews the right to vote.

Cain: awesome posts, keep 'em coming.
#30
I've arrived safely in Israel and am oddly euphoric about being here. The whole country is completely insane and everything feels just right and like home and this time I don't have to feel sad about leaving again in a couple of weeks.

Also, there's WiFi on intercity buses here, and I'm on one right now. YAY.

Did I miss much the past few days here?