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Can schools get more insane?

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, April 23, 2010, 12:44:18 AM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I got a call from the school saying that my kids "have been hanging around the playground" after school with some of my oldest girl's friends, and that, apparently, is Not Permitted as All Students must be Off Campus by 3:15.

So, to recap: children are not allowed to play on the playground after school.   

My oldest daughter calls me every time (from the school phone, in fact) to ask me if she may, and tells me who is there and how long she will stay. I know who these kids are, they are good kids and it is all 100% parent-approved.

I called the school to find out what on earth the story was, and the secretary made some comments about "unsupervised children" so I said "To clarify, we are talking about 12 and 13-year-olds, with cell phones, who are legally allowed to babysit or be out and about on their own" and she said "if the parents allow them to be running around unsupervised that is a family issue" in a tone that implied that letting young teenagers have any responsibility is Bad Parenting. Needless to say, I have pretty strong feelings about the entire interaction.

It may just be the secretary trying to bullshit me, in which case I am overreacting, but if this is actual Portland Public School policy, it will not stand. I have requested a written copy of it.

This is a modified (names removed) version of the letter I sent to the principal, the school board, a local community-activist blogger, and KATU channel 2:

QuoteI'm an ACCESS Academy parent and, as other parents are, since my oldest daughter turned of age to babysit and the weather warmed up, I have been allowing her to stay on the playground for a little while with friends after school, to play. The school is about eight blocks from my home, in a safe neighborhood, as you know - most neighborhood parents have their children walk to school - and of course, many people use the field and playground during off-hours.

My daughter is 12-1/2, recently completed CPR training, and her friends are between 12 and 14... all good kids with involved parents, about whom I have no concerns in terms of getting into trouble. My son, 10, likes to play ball and have races with his friends in the field.

However, today I received a phone call from the school secretary saying that children are not allowed to play on the playground after school, and that she was calling all the parents of the offending children to let them know. I asked her if that was a Portland Public Schools policy or just our school's policy, and at first she said she could only answer for our school, but later, when I stated that I was asking for clarification, said it is a PPS policy that applies to all schools. I found the conversation very upsetting and discouraging. My son stayed after school with friends to play in the field frequently last fall while he was still attending Sabin, and I was never notified of this school district policy.

My question is, is this a common policy nationwide? Is it a new policy? Is it something that I, as a parent, should already have been aware of? The secretary was very critical and gave the impression she believes I am a stupid, terrible parent for letting my children play "unsupervised" on the playground, but, while I realize that we live in a culture of protection, at 12 years old a child is legally (and this is widely socially accepted and practiced, not a mere formality) capable not only of supervising themselves, but of supervising younger children. Because of this, I do not see the logic behind not allowing children of this age to play or supervise younger children on the playground after school hours. I am also curious whether this is a pervasive or common policy, as it is new to me. The playground has baseball diamonds, a large field for running, as well as swings and a basketball court. I have often seen young neighborhood residents skateboarding or playing ball there during off-hours.

When I asked if the playground and fields are not public property, the secretary told me that the children can go to a public park, but must be off school grounds by 3:15pm, which did not answer my question. I was under the impression that the playground is also a public park. If the playground is a public park, is this policy legal? If it is not a public park, why is it open to the public off-hours for basketball or dogwalking? At what point after school hours do the children attending school cease being under the rule of school policy and become "neighborhood residents" to whom general use of the public areas is available? It seems to do children more harm than good to shut them off from it, as it offers them one less option for healthy, outdoor, non-troublemaking fun. I also wonder if that policy means that children will not be allowed to use the playground during the summer. Will school-age babysitters be allowed to bring their younger charges to the playground, or will that be against the policy?

Clearly, as would any parent, I want to know if my children are causing problems. I rely on the communication network of my fellow parents, as well as the tattletale instinct of other kids, to inform me if this happens. I need to know so I can discipline them for inappropriate behaviors, as well as reward them for behaving socially and responsibly. My children have a cell phone with them. I feel that I am taking a reasonable balance between teaching them caution and giving them the appropriate freedom to develop responsibility, self-awareness, and independence. The idea that children of an age to legally supervise themselves and other children may not play on the public, publicly-funded playground after school seems contrary to the statement that it's for safety reasons.

I have asked the principal for a copy of the policy so that I may better understand it. I think this is a serious issue for parents, especially in an educational climate where things like tag, hugging, and swingsets are being banned from schoolyards.

In Oregon, school playgrounds are public property weekends & after hours... people take their dogs there to play, use the basketball court, etc. I believe the posted rule is that you can't use it after dark, which is also true of other public park areas. I will find out exactly what the laws are for public use of school playgrounds, and whether a public school in Oregon can legally set a policy for students that prohibits them from the normal use of school playgrounds that all other residents are entitled to.

From talking to a few people so far, it sounds like the secretary was overstating the school's authority, and the policy (which is surely insurance-based) cannot cover the playground because it's open to the public after hours. I will find out for sure soon enough.

Oh, and a close family friend just happens to both live in my neighborhood AND be on the State school board, so I sent a copy of my letter to him.

I think I just became a "community activist"...
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


NotPublished

Oh my god, that is messed up...

Fight the bitch Nigel!

Soo over protective damn ...
In Soviet Russia, sins died for Jesus.

Idem

#2
So the school wants the kids to get out after school's over?  I don't quite see the big deal.

ETA:  Oh, nevermind, didn't know it was public property where you're at.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:05:29 AM
So the school wants the kids to get out after school's over?  I don't quite see the big deal.

Taxpayer money pays for the playground.  The kids aren't doing anything wrong.

But I suppose it WOULD be better if they went and hung out in a non-public place, right? 
Molon Lube

Idem

Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 23, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:05:29 AM
So the school wants the kids to get out after school's over?  I don't quite see the big deal.

Taxpayer money pays for the playground.  The kids aren't doing anything wrong.

But I suppose it WOULD be better if they went and hung out in a non-public place, right? 
Yeah, nevermind, my brain is kinda fizzed out and I wasn't thinking right

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:11:42 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 23, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:05:29 AM
So the school wants the kids to get out after school's over?  I don't quite see the big deal.

Taxpayer money pays for the playground.  The kids aren't doing anything wrong.

But I suppose it WOULD be better if they went and hung out in a non-public place, right? 
Yeah, nevermind, my brain is kinda fizzed out and I wasn't thinking right

These things happen.

It's hard to say if this is an insurance thing, or just a "prick in the school administration" thing.
Molon Lube

Idem

I just thought they wouldn't want to be held accountable for kids after 3:15.  Would they be, anyway?

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:45:02 AM
I just thought they wouldn't want to be held accountable for kids after 3:15.  Would they be, anyway?

I'm still waiting for answers, but for children over the age of being allowed to "sign themselves out", no. Younger children have to wait for a parent or other designated person to officially pick them up. However, as far as I can tell so far, according to the law, once the child is officially discharged from the school session, whether by self or by parent, depending on age and what waivers the parent has signed (I had to sign a waiver to let my kids walk home), the school cannot prohibit children from playing on the playground, either supervised or alone, as long as they are over the age at which children can be left at home alone, which is 10 in Oregon. If they are under age 10, playing unsupervised, it could be considered neglect and would be a police matter, not a Portland Public Schools matter. Further, children age 12 and above who are legally allowed to supervise younger children can, well, supervise younger children. There are, of course, additional laws about how many younger children and how young they can be, but in this instance they are not relevant.

Blogger dude posted a slightly earlier version of my letter:

http://bojack.org/2010/04/schools_over_for_the_day_kids.html

Useful comments, especially from the lawyer. I was also really happy that Jack provided Oregon's legal term (Open Space) for the zoning of parks and playgrounds, because that means I can look it up and, if this supposed school policy actually exists and I am able to get a copy of it, I can check to see if it conflicts with the law.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Remington

That's messed up. Fight the Power, Nigel!
Is it plugged in?

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I'MA GET POLITICAL ON THEIR ASSES.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#10
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 23, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Idem on April 23, 2010, 02:05:29 AM
So the school wants the kids to get out after school's over?  I don't quite see the big deal.

Taxpayer money pays for the playground.  The kids aren't doing anything wrong.

But I suppose it WOULD be better if they went and hung out in a non-public place, right?  

Behind the dumpsters at the 7-11, maybe. ;)

The more I find out, the more indicates that this policy, if it exists, would be illegal. Oregon, and Portland in particular, has pretty unique laws about public spaces, and school playgrounds are zoned "OS" for "Open Space", same as parks. The only restriction is that during school hours, the grounds are for school use only... and at many schools here, even that is not the case because the playground is on Park & Rec land.

I am rather expecting a carefully-drafted email on Monday, explaining that the secretary was "mistaken".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

No reply from the principal. I was expecting at least a "I'm so sorry you're unhappy with the situation, let me look into this further" message today. My ex is working an internship with City Planning; I just talked to him and he says that if we don't hear back from the principal or the school board by midweek next week, he will arrange a meeting with the mayor and some of the City Planning folks. The mayor is already aware of the situation because of Jack's blog.

In the meantime, I have told my daughter to continue doing exactly as she has been, and that if the secretary says anything to her about it, to have her call me, and to also tell me about it, in case she doesn't. When last I checked in, about an hour ago, my daughter and her two alarmingly tall friends were in the school office, giggling and calling their mothers to ask if they could stay after school. The secretary was exceptionally cold to me, but didn't say a word about it. I have not spoken to the other mothers yet, but their girls have also not altered their routine.

Incidentally, while I was at the school this afternoon, a mother picking up her kid fell and twisted her ankle in a hole on school grounds. Maybe next they'll try to prohibit parents from picking their children up at the school, because someone could get hurt...
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Jasper


The Wizard

Kick their collective asses, Nigel. This is utter bullshit.
Insanity we trust.

Jenne

yeah, this is most certainly a case of "insurance" wagging the dog.  ugh.  Good for you, Nigel.  Get their asses.