Police cameras

[Juana]

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.  With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

There sure are! But the vast majority of them are not going to be Good Cops. They're going to be medicore cops, who are the products, as I said, of the society and institutions that made them.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.

Is anyone making an argument for that?

With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

Is anyone disagreeing with that?

[AFK]

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.

Is anyone making an argument for that?

With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

Is anyone disagreeing with that?

It would seem to me the debate wouldn't have gone this far if there weren't people disagreeing with that.

[Phox]

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.

Is anyone making an argument for that?

With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

Is anyone disagreeing with that?

It would seem to me the debate wouldn't have gone this far if there weren't people disagreeing with that.

It would seem to me the debate wouldn't have gone this far if you weren't denying that there are institutionalized culturally supported police abuses. Aside from your anecdotes, and your seeming refusal to address half the people posting ITT, what evidence to the contrary do you offer?

[East Coast Hustle]

Yes.  I have colleagues and partners in my work who are in dozens of police departments across the state, which includes sherriffs, chiefs of police, lieutenants, officers, etc.  I work with individuals at the local, county, and state level. I have partners in the DEA, the Maine DEA.  Through national conferences, conventions, etc., I have colleagues in other police departments in other states including New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, etc.


I will definitely put my actual hands on experience up against anyone on this board.  Law enforcement are key partners in the work I do, and I'm not just talking about arresting people for drug violations.  They are also there along side me as I do the community building work to make our communities safer and to help those who are at risk. 


The link, which actually Cain provided, is an interesting study that looked at racial profiling which obviously does exist and was obviously present in the case studies reviewed in that paper.  But, they were just that, case studies.  I don't believe you can take that and cast it upon every other department in every other community because all communities are different.  I personally think it is a fairly lazy and clumsy generalization which definitely differs from the balance of my experience and the experience of others inmy field from across the country.  And we are all in the business of helping the minority sub-populations in our communities whether it be ethnic, orientation, behavioral health, etc.

1) There are members of this forum who have actually BEEN the police. Hope that doesn't cramp your assumed expertise on the subject.

2) That UNHRC report was about a WHOLE LOT MORE than racial profiling, which you would know if you had actually read it.

[East Coast Hustle]

By the way, people who refer to it as L/A in conversation should have their Maine card revoked. I trust you're only doing that to protect your privacy.

If he is, it didn't work.

Twid,
Google

ETA: insofar as to mask what city was being talked about.

No, but it IS a common short-hand used for the twin cities here in Maine.

Only by complete douchewits. LA is a city in southern California. Where you are is "Lewiston-Auburn". Say it with me now: "Lew-is-ton-Au-burn"

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno what to say guys, I just think this place has just sunk so far into the tales of horrormirth that it is all you guys can see, even when it isn't there.  And the problem with that, is you end up unwittingly forsaking allies, which I think is very unfortunate. 

[East Coast Hustle]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty. 

Nevermind that comprehensive and detailed UN report, guys, RWHN has some extremely compelling anecdotes!

[Nephew Twiddleton]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty. 

Nevermind that comprehensive and detailed UN report, guys, RWHN has some extremely compelling anecdotes!

He's already dismissed that report as just being case studies.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hey guys, I know three guys who are cops on a personal level, and all are decent human beings who I never known to act dishonourably (truthfully).

I guess all those black kids who keep on dying in London jail cells are just killing themselves!

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

Let's dissect this a little. Police brutality complaints are often handled by the department itself and while I can think of two instances in which it lead to a decrease in complaints being filed (LA and Fresno), having complaints handled by an outside source often means the board/auditory doesn't actually have much power to enforce their decisions on complaints.
As a phenomena, it is often under reported, and here are 2010's stats on police brutality, with this highlight: "The current US average projected police misconduct rate is an estimated 977.98 officers per 100,000 officers (mean 909.31 per 100k) as calculated using data gathered from all of 2010."
I think the general gist, RWNH, is that all police departments across the country are problematic. They have shitty officers. There are perfectly good, just, upright cops out there, but most are, well, products of the society that made them and institutional culture. Which does not produce Good Cops very often, imo.

Your opinion is well-supported by the evidence and literature, and is shared by many prominent sociologists. You don't need me to tell you this, but I can confirm that most American sociologists (Stanley Eitzen, Erik Olin Wright, Howard Zinn, Maxine Baca Zinn, Richard Schaefer, etc.) agree that police racism, corruption, and misconduct is epidemic in the US, and that not only is it epidemic, but also systemic, in that it is built into the structure of the law enforcement system from the ground up. The process of becoming a police officer is designed, from the very first class they take, to weed out people who are sympathetic to the public and to reinforce the perspective that the world is full of scum who need to be punished. By the time most people become a police officer, they are fully enculturated into a brotherhood that dominantly views the public as the enemy. It is a huge and very well-recognized problem, and ever more so with the increasing militarization of the police force.

[East Coast Hustle]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty. 

Nevermind that comprehensive and detailed UN report, guys, RWHN has some extremely compelling anecdotes!

He's already dismissed that report as just being case studies.

Which is, in fact, not the case. And which proves that he didn't actually bother to read the report.