Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:07:42 PM

Title: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
....I can get behind such a program.  But I believe there are far worthier candiates for such an award than Christopher fucking Hitchens (http://www.atheist-reference.org/).

I'm sure such a statue will inspire future generations to their own heroic achievements, "kids, you too can waste an elite education on demanding never-ending conflict and belittling your opponents, dying a bitter and lonely drunk who has driven most of his friends away".
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 02, 2012, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
....I can get behind such a program.  But I believe there are far worthier candiates for such an award than Christopher fucking Hitchens (http://www.atheist-reference.org/).

I'm sure such a statue will inspire future generations to their own heroic achievements, "kids, you too can waste an elite education on demanding never-ending conflict and belittling your opponents, dying a bitter and lonely drunk who has driven most of his friends away".

If you replace the word 'drunk' with the word 'addict', you've also made a pithy summary of Aleister Crowley.....someone else who doesn't need a statue either!
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:29:52 PM
BUT ALEISTER CROWLEY WAS AN INFLUENTIAL ATHEIST WHO INSPIRED MILLIONS!

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheist_authors

I mean, how come Hitchens gets to jump ahead?  Camus died first, and was a far more distinguished writer and philosophical atheist than Hitchens ever was.  Shit, let's build a giant statue to Iain Banks, at least his writing didn't apologise for real-life mass murder.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 02, 2012, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:29:52 PM
BUT ALEISTER CROWLEY WAS AN INFLUENTIAL ATHEIST WHO INSPIRED MILLIONS!

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheist_authors

I mean, how come Hitchens gets to jump ahead?  Camus died first, and was a far more distinguished writer and philosophical atheist than Hitchens ever was.  Shit, let's build a giant statue to Iain Banks, at least his writing didn't apologise for real-life mass murder.

There's something wonderfully perverse about venerating atheists. We should get behind this statue project! In fact, what would be better would be an enormous building filled with images of famous atheists. Obviously, this is an overwhelming experience for many, so we should leave some benches in there, in case people want to sit down. As a convenience, the backs of these benches should have pockets in which the literature of famous atheists could be stored.

I'm going to build a statue to atheists with a plaque that reads "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU MADE A PERSONAL DECISION ABOUT AN UNPROVABLE PREMISE!"

Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 02, 2012, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on November 02, 2012, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 02, 2012, 02:29:52 PM
BUT ALEISTER CROWLEY WAS AN INFLUENTIAL ATHEIST WHO INSPIRED MILLIONS!

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheist_authors

I mean, how come Hitchens gets to jump ahead?  Camus died first, and was a far more distinguished writer and philosophical atheist than Hitchens ever was.  Shit, let's build a giant statue to Iain Banks, at least his writing didn't apologise for real-life mass murder.

There's something wonderfully perverse about venerating atheists. We should get behind this statue project! In fact, what would be better would be an enormous building filled with images of famous atheists. Obviously, this is an overwhelming experience for many, so we should leave some benches in there, in case people want to sit down. As a convenience, the backs of these benches should have pockets in which the literature of famous atheists could be stored.

I'm going to build a statue to atheists with a plaque that reads "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU MADE A PERSONAL DECISION ABOUT AN UNPROVABLE PREMISE!"

:mittens: :lulz:
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 02, 2012, 04:29:57 PM
Ok, so there's a link on the page which discusses counter arguments to the statue:

http://www.atheist-reference.org/arguments-against-this/

One of the posters included this:

Christopher neither knows nor cares right now, by his own assertions he no longer can. Really, this isn't for Christopher. It's for us. It's for the people who loved him despite never having met him, the people whose lives he changed (such as mine), the people who he inspired, and the people who are yet to even be born who might well have better lives living in a better world because of things he wrote and said that had great influence.

We, his many adoring fans want this for us, because we want to know the statue is there and that we can visit it. We want to pay our respects to him in that way, and something I feel Christopher would agree to is that if that's what we want, then we have a right to try for it!


Read the above passage again and wherever you see the word 'Christopher' replace it with 'Jesus'.  :fnord:
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 02, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
In the absense of religion people will turn dead people into gods.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Eater of Clowns on November 02, 2012, 05:10:44 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 02, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
In the absense of religion people will turn dead people into gods.

I can get behind this, if only because it means I can finally achieve the godhood I so deserve.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 02, 2012, 05:35:24 PM
SEND GOD TO THE GUILLOTINE!

DIVINITY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 02, 2012, 05:55:55 PM
I dunno. I'd like to see a Crowley statue in Seguin. Just to piss people off.  :fap:
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 02, 2012, 09:42:26 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on November 02, 2012, 05:55:55 PM
I dunno. I'd like to see a Crowley statue in Seguin. Just to piss people off.  :fap:

Pissing people off and FAP....it's the perfect tribute to the old man... :lulz:
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Richter on November 02, 2012, 09:49:39 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 02, 2012, 05:10:44 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 02, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
In the absense of religion people will turn dead people into gods.

I can get behind this, if only because it means I can finally achieve the godhood I so deserve.

Don't wait until you're dead.  It's more fun if you're not actually.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
I will say, in defense of Hitchens, that he is better than the people responsible for this trainwreck of an article (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/view/the-hidden-anti-semitism-of-christopher-hitchens-and-the-new-atheists).
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 03, 2012, 03:37:21 PM
Although distinctions have been drawn between anti-Semitism as a racialist phenomenon and anti-Judaism (certainly Hitchens relies upon them), in reality it is difficult if not impossible to divorce these two hatreds. It is my contention that Judaism and Semitism are two sides of the same coin. To postulate what I am saying in a positive fashion, I would state that for all practical purposes Semitism is the vehicle of monotheism throughout history and constitutes a proof of Providence-–evidence for God, so to speak. This was achieved because the Jews as a people were receptive to the very words of God Himself, and that they transmitted them to humanity. It was by this mechanism (revelation) that human civilization evolved from paganism and naturalism to monotheism and morality. As I shall strive to prove in what follows, it is my contention that Hitchens' anti-theism cannot be divorced from his virulent anti-Judaism. Indeed, the latter invariably leads to the former.

I read as far as the above paragraph and gave up. There's too many layers of STOOPID to disentangle right now. I want to come  back to this later once Mrs Mang & I have taken care of all the necessary weekend household crap.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 03, 2012, 04:46:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
I will say, in defense of Hitchens, that he is better than the people responsible for this trainwreck of an article (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/view/the-hidden-anti-semitism-of-christopher-hitchens-and-the-new-atheists).

Ohhhhhhhh man.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mangrove on November 03, 2012, 08:42:21 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on November 03, 2012, 03:37:21 PM
Although distinctions have been drawn between anti-Semitism as a racialist phenomenon and anti-Judaism (certainly Hitchens relies upon them), in reality it is difficult if not impossible to divorce these two hatreds. It is my contention that Judaism and Semitism are two sides of the same coin. To postulate what I am saying in a positive fashion, I would state that for all practical purposes Semitism is the vehicle of monotheism throughout history and constitutes a proof of Providence-–evidence for God, so to speak. This was achieved because the Jews as a people were receptive to the very words of God Himself, and that they transmitted them to humanity. It was by this mechanism (revelation) that human civilization evolved from paganism and naturalism to monotheism and morality. As I shall strive to prove in what follows, it is my contention that Hitchens' anti-theism cannot be divorced from his virulent anti-Judaism. Indeed, the latter invariably leads to the former.

I read as far as the above paragraph and gave up. There's too many layers of STOOPID to disentangle right now. I want to come  back to this later once Mrs Mang & I have taken care of all the necessary weekend household crap.

Although distinctions have been drawn between anti-Semitism as a racialist phenomenon and anti-Judaism (certainly Hitchens relies upon them), in reality it is difficult if not impossible to divorce these two hatreds. It is my contention that Judaism and Semitism are two sides of the same coin.

The term anti-Semitism has, in the popular mind, become a synonym for 'anti-Jew'. However, better informed people realize that not all Semitic people are Jews. The author's contention is that Judaism & Semitism are the same thing. My contention is that they are not and if you don't believe me, go ask an Arab who is also a Muslim.

I would state that for all practical purposes Semitism is the vehicle of monotheism throughout history

The Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity & Islam have, indeed been vehicles of monotheism but only in the history of cultures where those religions have significance. If you don't believe me, go ask a Hindu or Buddhist about 'monotheism'. And while we're on the subject of monotheism, the Jews were not the first to postulate it. They were preceded by the Aten cult founded by the deeply unpopular pharoah Akhnaten.

and constitutes a proof of Providence-–evidence for God, so to speak.

The existence of Judaism constitutes proof of the existence of God. Really? So, the existence of Scientology constitutes proof of the existence of the evil galactic Prince Xenu?

This was achieved because the Jews as a people were receptive to the very words of God Himself

Clearly someone who has never read the Old Testament which, seems to be filled with examples whereby the Jews frequently ignored and disobeyed what their 'one god' told them to do hence all the 'smiting' that was going on.

and that they transmitted them to humanity.

Did Judaism really transmit monotheism to humanity? The Roman Empire certainly spread Christian monotheism widely. Muhammed spread Islamic monotheism across the Middle East but is there any historical precedent for a deliberate attempt by Judaic culture to spread it's monotheistic views? At what point in history did the Jews campaign for new members?

It was by this mechanism (revelation) that human civilization evolved from paganism and naturalism to monotheism and morality.

Of course, prior to the Torah and (Judaic) Monotheism, there was absolutely no morality. All those nasty pagans and naturalists were mean, vicious cave dwellers who could not so much as rub two rocks together without succumbing to their bestial desires. No, those Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks & Romans could not ever produce anything that resembled morality, philosophy, law or high culture. Nope. Not at all.

it is my contention that Hitchens' anti-theism cannot be divorced from his virulent anti-Judaism. Indeed, the latter invariably leads to the former.

What fucking school did you go to? Your contention is that because Christopher Hitchens refused to accept 'God' as described in the Bible, that makes him a racist? Well, this certainly puts me in a pickle. I also don't accept a deity as laid down by the Jews....and neither does my Jewish friend. By this logic, I secretly hate her because I think monotheism is dumb and she must secretly hate herself and her own ethnicity. This will make for interesting discourse next time she's over for dinner.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 12:59:23 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 04, 2012, 01:11:50 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 12:59:23 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 04, 2012, 01:13:37 AM
Mormon is definitely an ethnicity, though it's not widely considered one, yet. Most likely that will change within our lifetime.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:42:25 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 04, 2012, 01:11:50 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 12:59:23 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.

Yeah. Skin color, regardless of the percentages involved, tells very little of the genetic story.

I forgot where I read or heard it, but it was something along the lines of there's these two African tribes in the same general area of Africa. Those two tribes are going to have more genetic similarity to a Norwegian than to each other.

But either way, I dunno, I'd feel more comfortable with there being two different words to express the two different meanings of Jewish, since I think of Jewish referring specifically to religious sentiments. Saying that Carl Sagan was Jewish feels as inaccurate as calling Bill Maher Catholic.

This isn't the first time that I've thought about what Jewish means and basically gotten the same results as feeding "this statement it false" into a computer and asking it to resolve it. It made me want to form a spoof Satanic Jewish band called Dreidel of Filth (also to partially break the monopoly of Christianity on having it's own anti-religion. What would being a Jewish Satanist entail?)
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:45:40 AM
(The answer I eventually came up with for that last thought was "someone who worships Canaanite deities in a form of reverse henotheism-all gods are better than this one specific god")
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Phox on November 04, 2012, 05:49:45 AM
Literal Jewish Satanism? That would require that you accept that Ha-Satan is always correct when he brings people's sins to Yahweh's attention, and thus that no one is eligible to enter Heaven. Jewish Satan is a bit less malignant than Christian Satan.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:55:39 AM
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on November 04, 2012, 05:49:45 AM
Literal Jewish Satanism? That would require that you accept that Ha-Satan is always correct when he brings people's sins to Yahweh's attention, and thus that no one is eligible to enter Heaven. Jewish Satan is a bit less malignant than Christian Satan.

That's why I figured that it would have to be Canaanite sort of stuff. Or Golden Calf worship.

Satanism here is a convenient word, but the real idea is that of the intentional inversion of a specific religion. Like a really real Satanist and not just some bald atheist with goatee would be a Christian who has thrown his lot in with the devil. There's not really a convenient catch all for an inverted religion other than Satanism. You could say Antitheism, but then that just makes you sound like some bald atheist with a goatee and internet access.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:56:33 AM
Cacolatry.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Phox on November 04, 2012, 06:06:27 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:56:33 AM
Cacolatry.
WEll, you're right. But I just liked the thought of Literal Jewish Satanism.  :lulz:
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 06:17:58 AM
Hehe. A forgiving god- but one with a cardassian sense of justice.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 04, 2012, 04:40:50 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:42:25 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 04, 2012, 01:11:50 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 12:59:23 AM
Quote from: CAKE on November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.

Yeah. Skin color, regardless of the percentages involved, tells very little of the genetic story.

I forgot where I read or heard it, but it was something along the lines of there's these two African tribes in the same general area of Africa. Those two tribes are going to have more genetic similarity to a Norwegian than to each other.

But either way, I dunno, I'd feel more comfortable with there being two different words to express the two different meanings of Jewish, since I think of Jewish referring specifically to religious sentiments. Saying that Carl Sagan was Jewish feels as inaccurate as calling Bill Maher Catholic.

This isn't the first time that I've thought about what Jewish means and basically gotten the same results as feeding "this statement it false" into a computer and asking it to resolve it. It made me want to form a spoof Satanic Jewish band called Dreidel of Filth (also to partially break the monopoly of Christianity on having it's own anti-religion. What would being a Jewish Satanist entail?)

Yes, "race" has next to nothing to do with genetics.

As far as Judaism the religion vs. Hebrew the ethnicity, What about what Jews are comfortable with, or what Jews think? I think that aspect is pretty important. For the most part, the consensus than I am aware of is that there are ethnic Jews and there are religious Jews.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 04, 2012, 05:08:06 PM
I suppose thats fair. With the exception of danny my german friend naturally.
Title: Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
Post by: Kai on November 05, 2012, 01:28:49 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
I will say, in defense of Hitchens, that he is better than the people responsible for this trainwreck of an article (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/view/the-hidden-anti-semitism-of-christopher-hitchens-and-the-new-atheists).

The New Atheists are pretty good people. At least, that's what I would have said before that huge pileup of misogyny that happened last year. The best of them are aligning themselves with this Atheism Plus group, as in "gods don't exist; lets actually make things better for other people now". So, basically humanism without the woo.