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Messages - Dead Kennedy

#1
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Tattoos
February 22, 2009, 06:09:27 AM
I have nine tattoos.

One my right forearm:
* Leaves and jungle foliage forming a frame around:
* A cave-woman drawn by Frank Cho
* A technicolor (orange and blue) snake wrapped around a branch from which hangs the Golden Apple, tempting the cave woman -- yes, I have a subversion of the Garden of Eden story on my arm
* A naked redhead with a green cloak pouring out the waters of life from a jug, symbolizing my birth sign (Aquarius).

One my right shoulder:
* A large Giger-style biomechanical image of a woman's face done entirely in gray.  Everyone who sees it calls it a "goddess face."  Few know which one.

One my left forearm:
* A Tibetian occult-style fanged skull penetrated by a jeweled dagger and entwined by a diamondback rattlesnake
* A screaming skull wreathed in blue flames
* A grinning skull with devil horns

On my right calf:
* a goblin (representing Mescaltio) hanging onto a out-of-control jackhammer (representing LSD).
#2
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Green lego prison
February 21, 2009, 10:59:28 PM
Quote from: fomenter on February 18, 2009, 05:12:35 PM
enki try to ignore DK tempts to crap on your thread, he is being critical of something in almost every post he has made at pd.

Enki specifically asked me to come to this thread and critique his post.  So I did.

Accusing me of trolling or attempting to crap on his thread for doing the favorhe asked of me?

Dirty fucking pool, man!  Dirty pool!
#3
Quote from: Cainad on February 18, 2009, 06:17:34 AM
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 18, 2009, 06:13:10 AMI'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4486.msg165212#msg165212

Do never test the search function. It is wise and terrible.

I was starring at that for the longest time, trying to figure out why you posted it, and I looked back a few posts and realized we're talking right passed each other.

When LMNO said "Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they 'know about caves' rather than reading the text?" I didn't catch his meaning.

He meant "How many people have deluded themselves into thinking they understand the Allegory of the Cave because they know about caves, even though they haven't read the book."

I thought he meant "How many people have failed to understand the Allergory of the Cave after reading it because their knowledge of caves caused them to misunderstand what Plato was communicating."

LMNO seems to be convinced I have not read Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisted, but I've read it three times now (just again this night), and I still think the book just "doesn't get it."  But that's because that book is not where I was first exposed to the metaphor of the Black Iron Prison.  That would be RAW, I'm also certain its in The New Inquistion.

So the Alt. BIP (that's yours, as it is chronologically later in development) is fighting it out with the RAW BIP in my head.  And the thing I keep noticing is that the use of a prison as a metaphor makes great sense in RAW BIP model, and very little in the Alt. BIP.
#4
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Green lego prison
February 18, 2009, 10:59:52 AM
Quote from: Regret on February 18, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
Quotewhat is this a metaphor for?
The limitations of perception created by the way you interpreted incoming data in the past.

Okay.  I don't think this is a good metaphor for that.

Quote
QuoteAlso, is this house in my mind, or is it a literal physical house?  
The house is your mind (or your personality, that depends on your definition).

Wait.  The house is a metaphor for my mind? I totally don't see that. 

Quote
QuoteAlso... MindStorm?  Maybe you shouldn't assume the audience is familiar with the latest developments in LEGO products.  You say LEGO and I think of the little colored blocks, not specific product lines.  I have no idea what MindStorm is, and I don't want to go find out just so I can understand this essay.
Heh i had the same problem, but i used my imagination to get some idea of what LEGO + robotics would look like. It's a trick to force the reader to engage their mind.

It's a trick to force readers to look up a toy on the internet.  :sad: 

Quote
QuoteDo you mean to imply that I can break through the walls eventually?
This is a limitation of all BIP metaphores.

Which is a really good reason to find another metaphor.

Structures are good metaphors for things people are inside, and can leave. If you're describing something you can't go inside and can't leave, a metaphor other than a structure metaphor is called for.

Quote
QuoteI'd remove the reference to Chapel Perilous as that has a fairly specific meaning, and there is no point in diluting that metaphor.
[quoteChapel Perilous is the state of confusion that occurs when your rational view of the world is broken; broken by drugs, by various aesthetic practices or by so-called mental illness.
This chapel?
That sounds like what happens when a rationalist realizes that he only is rational because he was taught/taught himself that rationalism was the best way. This fits perfectly with the BIP and by extension with this metaphore.[/quote]

Chapel Perilous is not a state of confusion -- though confusion is a common reaction.  Chapel Perilous is the state where all meaning is destroyed.  When one escapes the Black Iron Prison (RAW Model), one ends up in Chapel Perilous.   Chapel Perilous is called such because if you don't make it through you can end up a burned-out braincase.

The best explanation ever: When Father Tom molested Timmy, Timmy realized everything his parents,peers and priests believed was a lie.  Hurled out of the Black Iron Prison into a world without meaning, into Chapel Perilous, Timmy finds himself unable to cope with the freedom which is when he realized he was really a dragon.  And back in the Black Iron Prison he goes.

Most people who attempt a jail break get lost in Chapel Perilous and end up back in the Prison.  Others make it through, seek out friends, and create a TAZ (Temporary Autonomous Zone) in which they can experiment with creative order and disorder.  Some choose to live in the TAZ, others note its easier to survive in the BIP and take advantage of their guest pass to slip the walls when there are no inmates around.
QuoteI want to go out and play!  I've been stuck in this damn LEGO house since I was a kid!
You can't, without the house as reference and filter the outside world doesn't make sense at all.[/quote]

But then the house is not like a house.  So the metaphor doesn't make much sense.

A window might make more sense, and in fact I've seen a window used as a metaphor to explain these concepts VERY effectively.  I'll see if I can find my essay on the subject.

QuoteThe habits and mannerisms you formed in your youth are an example of the automatic functions here.

I can't help but notice that RAW's Robot model would seem to work a bit better to get these same ideas across.  Robots, like houses, are constructed.  Robots, unlike house, don't contain people.  Robots are also programmable and reprogrammable.  Finally, if you are a robot you can't escape the robot.
#5
Quote from: Cainad on February 18, 2009, 06:00:13 AM
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 18, 2009, 04:16:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO on February 18, 2009, 02:47:52 AMOk, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

Nobody, but Plato's Cave doesn't challenge one's assumptions about caves.  It uses those assumptions to strengthen its own argument.  That's one of the reasons its such a famous metaphor.  It's very powerful.

:spittake:

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.
#6
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Green lego prison
February 18, 2009, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: Enki-][ on February 18, 2009, 03:45:51 AM
Btw, I was suggesting that most dogmatic religions/ideologies are like the booklets that tell you how to build specific types of lego things. Those booklets are surprisingly hard to follow, and I'd always get something that looked wrong, so I'd always build something from scratch, but other kids managed to build from the booklets just fine and never really needed to build anything that wasn't in them.

It totally busts the LEGO metaphor, but reading your piece I was imaging LEGO blocks falling on a baby (maybe one year old, old enough to sit up) like Tetris blocks, and the baby having to build something, anything, with the blocks being tossed at it. Maybe they aren't LEGO per se, maybe they are those baby LEGO.  Big simple ideas, easy to put together -- mom, dad, authority, love. 

So what does it do? Naturally it stacks them in a wall.  Since it can only reach so high, it has to build out.  Because it can only reach so far, it must build around.  Since it cannot move, it encircles itself. 

As it grows, more and more blocks are thrown at it, more complex blocks.  "Education." It could walk away, but there's a wall around them.

Eventually the blocks stop coming.  Turns out they come in at an angle.  Once you've built the wall up over your head, blocks just start bouncing off.


But then your MindStorm thing totally blew the image for me.



Also I love that the whole thing is based on a trademarked toy that everyone is familiar with.  It's very Andy Warhol.  I want to see this turned into an animation or photoseries.with LEGO people. 

ETA: Crap.  I forgot one of the things I wanted to say re: blueprints.

Okay, the whole spiel up there?  About the baby forced to build a wall of blocks or be buried under them?  Well it's the parents, educators, media and peers throwing the blocks.  Most people end up with a bias towards certain colors -- Americans will get a heavy mix of Red, White and Blue bricks -- but some people will get REALLY heavily biased block mixes.  Their parents, teachers, peers and authority figures are all chucking the same color block.

Maybe they're all White blocks.  Fundie parents, homeschooling, church, "I only read books about the bible."  Maybe they're all Green blocks and the only way out is to blow yourself up and collect 72 virgins.

My parents mostly through me black, red, and tie-dyed blocks.  Stupid hippies.
#7
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Green lego prison
February 18, 2009, 04:50:09 AM
You asked for a critique, you said this needs work, so I'm treating this like a rough draft.  Also, the plural of LEGO is LEGO.  And it's always capitalized.  The Danish Mafia will totally fucking kill you if you forget.

QuoteThe prison is not black iron. The prison you have been building from birth is made of legos.

This could be expanded on.  I built the prison?  Doesn't the use of "building" imply intentionality?  What was my motivation for building the house?  Who gave me the LEGO?

Also, what is this a metaphor for?  Plato opens the Allegory of the Cave with the line "And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:"  This told us what the metaphor is about, why we care about the cave.  The Allegory of the Cave is an allegory about the human condition, about the difference between the enlightened and unenlightened.

QuoteSure, when you're young, creating a house out of legos seemed like fun. You were enthusiastic. Perhaps you were brought up with one of the official instruction sheets, where if you followed the directions, you'd get the same lego motorhome as {jesus,muhamed,the good reverend roger}. Perhaps you were brought up without an instruction sheet and just stuck blocks together.

Is it a house or a prison?  I notice the whole essay works exactly the same either way.  Mostly because you consistently use house instead of prison.

This could be combined with the introduction to help answer the questions raised.  Also, is this house in my mind, or is it a literal physical house?  I ask because of the use of motorhome and this:
QuoteEither way, you managed to build up a home around you (it can move, because it's one of these new-fangled super high power MindStorms kits with the biobattery, and you can even make it do simple tasks by itself like you see on the commercials! oh joy).

This is confusing.  It can move? I assume you are talking about a metaphorical LEGO house.  In my head.  How does it move?  What does that even mean?  The LEGO house can do simple tasks?  Like what?  I don't see how this aside or the motorhome twist enhances the metaphor.  If the LEGO house is all in my head (which it has to be, since I would have noticed if I'd spent my whole life in a literal LEGO house).

Also... MindStorm?  Maybe you shouldn't assume the audience is familiar with the latest developments in LEGO products.  You say LEGO and I think of the little colored blocks, not specific product lines.  I have no idea what MindStorm is, and I don't want to go find out just so I can understand this essay.

QuotePerhaps in your teenage years, in a fit of rage, you demolished some small bit of it and had to rebuild it in a different shape. Even so, it probably hasn't changed in a while. This is such a popular thing to do that you barely even notice anymore that you're living inside a house of tiny plastic bricks.

'Kay.  Alternately, "Perhaps in a fit of teenage rebellion, you demolished and rebuilt some small bit of it to convince yourself you think for yourself."  Not everyone has teenage rage, but EVERYONE thinks they are smarter than their guardians and educators.

QuoteNobody really bothers to notice that you're in one either, and most days you can get by just by using the preprogrammed functions that you wrote during that weekend playing with the drag-and-drop programming thing when you were young.

You just mixed metaphors.  Lego houses don't have preprogrammed functions and aren't constructed by drag-and-drop programming.

QuoteBut it's a bit boring in that lego house of yours, isn't it? You've been in the damned thing for how many years now? You've given up hope of getting out -- a little remodeling is fine, but trying to pry the bricks from those old, smooth inner walls is enough to make your fingers bleed. You've got everything you need in here anyway, right?

Good.

QuoteWell, you know... Just because you can't break through the walls in one go doesn't mean that you can't do some major remodeling over time.

Do you mean to imply that I can break through the walls eventually?

QuoteIt's been a while since you did any of that stuff -- the preprogrammed functions have let you get through school, get through every day at the office... you hardly ever need to do anything that requires real thinking or real movement -- so of course you will have a rough time initially. For a while, it may seem like your own lego house is a prison or a death trap or some kind of macabre chapel perilous. But you made it, and you can take it apart.

I'd remove the reference to Chapel Perilous as that has a fairly specific meaning, and there is no point in diluting that metaphor.

Also the reference to preprogrammed functions is busting your metaphor again.

QuoteFirst, open up a little moonroof. Let the sun in sometimes, and get a little more fresh air.

The second time you've implied there is something outside the house.  I don't want to let a little sun in, I want to go outside!  Why can't I go outside.  Plato left me the option to leave the cave.  Why can't I leave the house?  Why even mention the outside you bastard?  That's just fucking cruel.

I want to go out and play!  I've been stuck in this damn LEGO house since I was a kid!

QuoteMaybe try to brush up on those long-ignored mindstorms programming skills and add new automatic functions, or fix old ones, or remove ones you no longer need. You should remember that a lot of these were made when you were very little, and are both quite useless and very badly written. Perhaps maybe you can make it into a convertable, if you have time. And you have so much more time these days, now that you have the sun from the sunroof energizing you and the fresh air and your automatic functions are more useful and more optimized.

I'm totally lost. Maybe if I knew what Mindstorms are?

QuoteHell, you can still ride around in the thing, right? You have your new and improved, souped up lego house. Leaving it, of course, would look ridiculous -- everyone of your age wears lego houses! You'd be naked without one, and crazy (you might get arrested for indecent exposure). I mean, sure, do it if you like, but it's way more fun just to pimp it out.

Even more lost.  I still don't understand what riding around in my LEGO house maps to.  I wear my LEGO house? Other people can see my LEGO house?  What's going on?  I'd be naked with out my house?  What the fuck man?

YOU'RE BLOWING MY FUCKING MIND MAN.

I'm driving around naked in my preprogrammed LEGO house that I built when I was a kid?

:?
#8
Quote from: LMNO on February 18, 2009, 02:41:31 AM
DK, please compare your idea of "false limitation" with the RAW and Leary 8-circuit structure. I'd like to see how you delineate behaviors.

Maybe later.  I already want to write that essay on the point of the Principia you requested earlier, and I'll only accept so much homework.  :)

[/quote]
Quote from: LMNO on February 18, 2009, 02:47:52 AMOk, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

Nobody, but Plato's Cave doesn't challenge one's assumptions about caves.  It uses those assumptions to strengthen its own argument.  That's one of the reasons its such a famous metaphor.  It's very powerful.
#9
Quote from: LMNO on February 18, 2009, 02:17:04 AM
DK, I'm confused.

Okay.  I will try to unconfuse you.  Bear with me.

QuoteIf I were to state that I knew everything about the ideas behind Plato's Republic, even though I never read it, you'd claim I was an idiot. And if I started rambling on about a tangent that had nothing to do with Plato, you'd probably suggest I read the guy before moving on.

Yes.  This is not an accurate analogy however, because I'm not claiming that I know everything about the ideas behind Black Iron Prison.  I'm not claiming that at all, and I don't think I'm "rambling on about a tangent that had nothing to do with" Black Iron Prison.  Neither does Ratatosk, which you might want to take into consideration.  

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have read Black Iron Prison and the ideas presented there are pretty familiar.  It's also not that hard to figure out what you guys are getting on about from your comments.

I don't have to know anything about your concepts to recognize that my assumptions about prisons -- which I think are pretty commonplace, conventional assumptions -- are not helping me understand them.  In fact, the LESS I know about your ideas, the easier it is to notice that the prison metaphor is confusing the issue rather than illuminating it.

QuoteSo I find it odd that you've come to a conclusion about our BIP idea, without even actually reading our ideas on it.

I find it odd that you think I've come to a conclusion about your BIP idea, when so far I've been exclusively discussing the relationship of the metaphor of a prison to the idea you are using the metaphor to explicate.

QuoteFrom what I recall from my college philosophy courses, it took pages and pages of set-up to come to a simple concluding sentence. Why are you so unwilling to put in a similar effort here, especially when we have posted a simple link to the available writings?

You are completely misunderstanding my criticism.
#10
Quote from: Phineas Poxwattle on February 17, 2009, 09:58:07 PMthere are many qualities of a physical prison that our metaphorical prison does not possess. Like being federally funded, and functioning as an arm of the judicial system. I think focusing on the similarities between a real-life prison and our nervous systems is a red herring - no metaphor is meant to be totally comprehensive.

True, but a metaphor is meant to be at least minimally comprehensive, and the strength/utility of a metaphor is directly proportional to the number of points of similarity between the metaphor and the concept explained by the metaphor.  

If there are no similarities at all, then what is the point of using a metaphor at all?  How does it help to understand territory if the map has no relationship to the territory?

Here's the question:  What does the metaphor of prison do to help explain the concept that the Alt. Black Iron Prison model refers to that any other structure wouldn't do?

Why is prison a better metaphor for the concept referred to than any other?

For example, the metaphor of prison and cell could be replaced with a metaphor of mansion and room, or cave system and cavern (drawing a conceptual link to Plato's Allegory of the Cave).

Why shouldn't it be replaced?  Why is the metaphor of prison and cell more accurate than the metaphor of mansion and room?

QuoteTo me, (and I know I'm repeating what's been said to some extent) a lot of the prison metaphor speaks to the limitations and constraints on our free will (that elusive chimera!). The word "Free Will" carries this connotation that "you can do anything you want." Yes, but it's the "anything you want" that's the tricky part. For example, I could murder my boss, but it's not an option I'm capable of pursuing - I simply don't have the motivation. Understanding that there are such constraints on my decision making processes gives me a sort of power which I didn't have when I wasn't aware of it. This gives me some more maneuverability within the prison, but I still can't get outside of certain constraints.

Your example doesn't seem to support your argument.

Murdering your boss is an option you are capable of pursuing.  That you don't have a motive to kill your boss is not a limitation (re: this post on limitations for expanded discussion of this point).  You just don't want to do it.

Not wanting to do something is not the same thing as not being capable of doing something.  This is an attitudinal limitation, so it's a false limitation.  You just need to shift your attitude.  Snort PCP and spend twenty minutes pacing in darkness dwelling on every single annoying habit you boss has, and you can generate the motivation to kill him.

Not that you should do that.  I can't endorse killing people just to prove you can.

QuoteThe prison metaphor underscores that there are certain things that are completely outside of my abilities. (and I don't mean physical restrictions, like obviously I can't fly or whatever) No matter how hard I flex my free will, I just can't bring myself to punch my girlfriend in the face, fuck my mom, or buy a pick-up truck.

Those are all false limitations.  You can totally bring yourself to do those things.  It would just take a lot of work, and you can't see any purpose to doing that work.  Neither can I.

QuoteI also use the prison metaphor to speak about certain elements of my day-to-day reality which become imprisoning despite the fact that I selected them. I live in the ghetto - but yo, I'm the one that picked my apartment. I watch the Colbert Report every goddamn night, mostly out of habit. These are constraints on my behavior. They're constraints I put there, and theoretically ones I can control. But only if I really want to, and that's the rub.

It seems to me you're using the prison metaphor to justify putting up with things you don't like.  Constraints you put on your own behavior are not actually constraints.
#11
Quote from: Cainad on February 17, 2009, 09:09:36 PM
Sorry, who's not listening?

You are not listening to what I'm saying at all.  Your responses are complete non-sequitors.  You (and LHNO) seem to be operating on an Understand-Agree fallacy. You think because I don't agree with your position I don't understand it.  That's not the case.

Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 17, 2009, 08:59:12 PMAnd the metaphor implies the exact opposite.

If you want to take the name of it literally, which is not how it's intended.

The actual metaphor, if you're willing to take it beyond the immediate assumption that Prisoner=Mind and Prison=Body, clearly suggests that our minds are directly tied to both physical and self-imposed psychological limits.[/quote]

The metaphor implies the exact opposite if you take it as a metaphor.

No offense, but you seem to not understand the point of a metaphor.  A metaphor is supposed to help us understand a more difficult concept.  A metaphor assumes common knowledge of the thing being used as a metaphor.  It uses the metaphor as a map to the more complicated territory.  More to the point, it uses the immediate assumptions that the metaphor evokes to help you understand the territory -- it uses the familiar to explain the unfamiliar.

But all of the immediate assumptions one makes about a prison -- that society puts you there, that it is unpleasant, that you can escape, that there are guards and wardens, that there are other inmates, that people will try to put you back in if they realize you've escaped, etc. -- turn out to be false.

It seems to me that I have to understand the territory very well in order to understand the map.  That's ass-backwards!  Yet this is exactly what is implied by LMNO's request to read everything first.  He seems to be saying 'The map will make sense once you understand the territory.'  But if I understand the territory, what need do I have for the map?  The map is supposed to be helping me understand the territory.

Quote from: yhnmzw on February 17, 2009, 10:30:54 PM
I SEE DISCUSSION OF HOW THE PRISON IS OR IS NOT ESCAPABLE.

I ALREADY SOLVED THAT FOR YOU.

PUT THE PRISON IN A DESERT.

IT EVEN IMPROVES THE METAPHOR.

Actually it doesn't improve the metaphor, nor is it accurate.

You want a metaphor for what is outside the Black Iron Prison?  The Christians have a great one:  The Garden of Eden.  Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You explores this idea in great detail.  Too Christiany for your tastes?  Then I suggest reading Hakim Bey's TAZ: Temporary Autonomous Zone.  Maybe outside the Prison is the Pirate Utopia.

A desert is a poor metaphor, because the only meaningful reason to even discuss the Black Iron Prison is to encourage other people (or yourself) to attempt a jail break.  If I tell you the only thing outside the prison is a desert, is that going to inspire you to make a break for it?  Or is the takeaway message going to be "Out of the frying pan, into the fire."

Quote from: Ratatosk on February 17, 2009, 10:23:04 PMPersonally, based on my experiences and current level of knowledge and ignorance; I think that there are several issues with the BiP as a model and I find it somewhat annoying that anytime someone brings those issue up its responded to with "You don't understand". If multiple people say "Wow, this doesn't seem to depict the territory very well..." then there might be some issues with the map.

Exactly.

QuoteI think DK has made some extremely well thought out comments in this thread.

Thank you.
#12
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 17, 2009, 08:52:24 PM
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 17, 2009, 08:01:08 PM
You appear to be using the term Black Iron Prison to refer to a thing that:

1) Society does not put you in.
2) You cannot escape from.
3) It does not necessarily suck being there.

1) Society in part, informs where you are in the Prison.  What cell you occupy.  Another informant would be the physiological.  Our existence depends heavily upon nature AND nurture. 
2) No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important.  Not because of some dark connotations, but because it denotes the fact that you cannot transcend the limitations inherent in being a part of the human race.  HOWEVER, the caveat is that the Prison walls are amorphous.  Just when we think we've discovered all we can discover, we feel along and find that at some points, the walls go back further than we had anticipated.  There is more territory to explore, more paths to take.
3) Correct.  It might suck, it might not.  It depends on your outlook and how you react to the bars in your cell.  But, you have the freedom of movement to explore more of the Prison if you don't like where you are.  Find another cell, explore more of the territory.

So you're using the metaphor of a prison to describe something that is nothing at all like a prison.

Like this statement doesn't make sense to me: "No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important."

The prison part of the metaphor doesn't seem important, it seems misleading.  You can escape prison.  That's a fundamental part of my understanding of prisons, and I suspect most people's understanding of prisons.   They are escapable.
#13
Quote from: Cainad on February 17, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
Alright, I don't really care to read the last few pages, because I have a bone to pick.

The Black Iron Prison does NOT have Cartesian Dualism built into it. The mind and body are not separated into Prisoner (mind) and Prison Cell (body), because a huge component of the prison cell is the mind itself. I would personally go so far as to say that the mental component of the prison cell is the one many of us are most interested in.

You're so not actually listening to what I'm saying.

I know that the concept of the Alt. Black Iron Prison (the territory) is not Cartesian in nature.  The problem is that the metaphor of a prison and the metaphor of a prison cell both imply a prisoner, and thus introduce Cartesianism.

The Cartesianism isn't in the territory, it's in the map of the territory.

QuoteFurthermore, it is very strongly implied that our personalities and interactions with the world around us depend heavily on how we are able to perceive the world though the bars. So it is pretty clear that the mind (soul, self, ego, whatever the fuck) is intrinsically connected to the physical body (which also forms part of the Cell), not a separate entity.

And the metaphor implies the exact opposite.
#14
Quote from: LMNO on February 17, 2009, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 17, 2009, 08:01:08 PM
You mean Phillip K. Dick?  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is pure metaphysical wankery.  

No.

What do you mean "No?"  What are you saying no to?  It would appear you are saying "No,  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is not pure metaphysical wankery."  But the rest of your comments don't support this point.  

QuoteI have made it clear from the very beginning that I ripped off PKD's phrase and applied it to the "Discordia Revisited" project we worked on in 2006.

Congratulations, that makes you the second person associated with Discordianism to do that.

Quote from: Enki-][ on February 17, 2009, 08:16:28 PM
Can someone link me to RAW's version? I have many of his books, and I haven't ever come across him using the phrase Black Iron Prison.

I'm not sure which book it is specifically, having read the majority of them in one stretch ten years ago, but I just called Chuck and he seems to think that RAW discusses it in-depth in either Coincidance or The New Inquistion.  I'm thinking it's more likely the latter, since TNI is really all about the limitations of reality tunnels.
#15
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 17, 2009, 07:49:11 PMDK, I grok the issues you have with the metaphor, I share many of them.

However, in the context that TOG and others are using it, the prison is inescapable... because it IS the human neurological system.

Let's not muddle our models... the BiP is whatever it is defined as.

I find that very strange, since they are acting like they invented the model.  But Robert Anton Wilson invented it.  And he was most certainly not referring to the human neurological system as the Black Iron Prison, that's almost a total inversion of what he was referring to.  Talk about muddling models!  I can see why Cain is seeking alternative metaphors (The Black Iron Dungeon).

QuoteIf you define the Prison as escapable social controls, then what does your map model physical limitation as?

Earlier I discussed the Prisoner as a potential metaphor (map), but I generally don't feel a need to have all of my maps work with all my other maps.  I like the Domesticated Primate model, and the Broken Robots model.  And yes,I know I am a total RAW fanboy.

QuoteMyself, I find that the BiP as modeled by many people here to have a number of flaws. So I have a different model... but that's not what the BiP IS (even if ToG and others think they know)... its just some semantic BS that is tied to variations on similar concepts in our brains.

In the future when I refer to the Black Iron Prison I will try to distinguish between RAW's version, which I find a very workable metaphor (as I've illustrated in my previous posts in this thread), and the Alternative Black Iron Prison.