Purposes and goals of mindfucks

[the last yatto]

I started writing an essay but, mercifully, I think a summary might work better.

damn

and I was expecting a five paragraph essay with an introduction and conclusion

TITCM

[Template]

Existence of multiple realities is a matter of speculation in physics.

By that measure, so is a single reality.

Are you saying that there is no evidence that this reality exists?

No, I was just pointing out the pointlessness of the original premise.

But logically speaking, there is no flaw. There is, from a physics perspective, ample evidence that this reality exists. There is no evidence that multiple realities exist. Therefore, the existence of multiple realities is speculation, but the existence of a single reality (this one) is not.

If that's true, then I was wrong.

Back to the original point though, the OP didn't mention quantum effects, nor require them implicitly.

You are the first person in this thread to use the word "quantum."  Hopefully, the word won't be used again after this post.  The same reality, holds several reality tunnels.

I meant speculation as opposed to the kind of truth you have to live with, every day.  Sometime, when you're feeling on top of the world, ask TGRR about the horrible truth.

The Tao you can discuss is not the true Tao.  (Alternate forms: replace Tao with System, Way, or Chao)

Who says?

What do you seek?  The Truth?  Truth?  truth?

What have you got?

"Robustness" is probably a subjective idea.  If you want a good subjective metric for reality tunnels, use "pleasurable" or "fun".  They won't do you wrong.

So, given the choice, you'd happily plug yourself into the matrix if it gave you a program which guaranteed that for you?

The tao bit comes from the Tao Te Ching.  Discordia inherits from Zen which inherits from Taoism.  Or at least, they can when they want to.

You aren't the cops!  I don't have to tell you what I do or do not have.  Sounds like you're itching for The Works, though.

We all plug into the matrix for a few hours now and then.  It's fun, but like some games, the fun stops being so fun eventually.  It may not even have been that fun to begin with.

[Captain Utopia]

I meant speculation as opposed to the kind of truth you have to live with, every day.

Ah, I think I see what you mean now. I'm not sure I can draw the distinction quite as clearly. Once I can predict the barstool then to a certain degree the model seems to work, if not, the model needs work.

Sometime, when you're feeling on top of the world, ask TGRR about the horrible truth.

Gifted with an imagination not imaginative enough to imagine any "horrible truth", I'm sceptical that caution is required. Does that qualify as feeling on top of the world?

The tao bit comes from the Tao Te Ching.  Discordia inherits from Zen which inherits from Taoism.  Or at least, they can when they want to.

You wouldn't believe the occult library I have behind me right now, and I've read barely a scratch - you might find that part more believable. I did start reading the Tao Te Ching, after about 20 pages my amusement turned to intense dislike, and I can't remember why, nor find the copy..

Found it - I disliked that it didn't actually come out and say what it meant. I know that sounds like a terribly unsophisticated critique, but if you could literally spend your entire life on that metaphysical kaleidoscope - and still not be able to predict a barstool - then what more is it than a beautiful poetic wanky mindfuck?

What functional purpose has it served other than to set up a system of masters and students who can smugly share insights, and point to "hidden meanings"? What is the point of insight if you can't apply it outside your own head?

And the thing which really pisses me off, is that it sets up this whole system of thought that we're saddled with now where we have this expectation that you have to sacrifice and toil pointlessly to see any benefit from a spiritual endeavour. Yeah, because I power my computer with an array of gerbils in hamster wheels instead of plugging it into the wall. Of course, it doesn't help that on the other end of the spectrum you have people like Oprah who exploit little tidbits of eastern philosophies just so that some bored housewife can say to herself "oooh - that sounds like a great idea", only to forget it by the time the commercial breaks are over, which just tends to reinforce the paradoxical belief that you really must apply a great protestant work ethic to "get anything" from an eastern religion, which no-one is doing anyway because we only have one lifetime and that's not nearly long enough to extract value from something we just kinda assume actually contains it in spades, if only someone somewhere could goddam find it.

And fuck Feng Shui - there, I said it - if you've never tripped over subtly moved furniture that you've just spent An Entire Weekend Rearranging back to almost-but-not-quite the same positions at the concerned behest of your wife, then I don't expect you to feel this one. Yes dear, I'm so glad that the non-existent fucking energy flows so wonderfully through our home now, but how exactly is the chi affected by all this blood slowly congealing upon the floor?

Fuck that shit Lao Tzu - tldr. If you can't just come out and tell me what you have to say because I haven't had some mystical revelation that you can't even be sure wasn't your brain fucking with itself then maybe - just maybe - you're full of shit and need to start listening to some outside voices instead of those crammed inside your head pulling the strings.

If anyone can figure out why just reading the first few pages of the Tao Te Ching makes me this pissed off, I'd appreciate the enlightenment.

You aren't the cops!  I don't have to tell you what I do or do not have.  Sounds like you're itching for The Works, though.

Sorry - didn't mean to sound demanding. Yes I want The "Works". Who wouldn't? As long as I don't have to wear a silly hat afterwards, I'm down with whatever "The Works" may bring. I'm serious about the hat though - I took a quick look through spagbook and that was the closest I've been so far to any "horrible truth".

We all plug into the matrix for a few hours now and then.  It's fun, but like some games, the fun stops being so fun eventually.  It may not even have been that fun to begin with.

That makes sense to me, but why then would you suggest to follow that which seems "fun" or "pleasurable"? I'm not down on these things, but given that we have some measure of control over what activities we pin those labels to, surely there is a more intelligent approach we can take instead of just finding new excuses for gratification?

[Brotep]

Feng shui and the Tao Te Ching have little to do with one another, aside from both being Chinese in origin.  Of course, a lot of the Tao Te Ching consists of references to obscure meditation practices that we don't have a clue about.

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to anything, or what this thread is about.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Existence of multiple realities is a matter of speculation in physics.

By that measure, so is a single reality.

Are you saying that there is no evidence that this reality exists?

No, I was just pointing out the pointlessness of the original premise.

But logically speaking, there is no flaw. There is, from a physics perspective, ample evidence that this reality exists. There is no evidence that multiple realities exist. Therefore, the existence of multiple realities is speculation, but the existence of a single reality (this one) is not.

If that's true, then I was wrong.

Back to the original point though, the OP didn't mention quantum effects, nor require them implicitly.

What do you mean, "if that's true?"? Do  you mean that you don't have a scientific background and did not research your statement before you made it?

[Thurnez Isa]

The main problem here is burden of proof

If your arguing for this existence of this reality there really isn't any burden of proof there, we more or less know this reality exists through laws and experience, ect. there are always really weird ideas way out in left field that say even this reality is nonexistent and they really can't be disproven, but have no evidence in support so therefore can be more or less rejected for now.
If your arguing for multiple realities then first you have to prove it is indeed possible (and from what I read this is still debatable) but even then, possibly does not mean existence.

In other words the burden of proof is on multiple realities not on a singular reality.

...which is pretty much what Nigel said

[the last yatto]

If anyone can figure out why just reading the first few pages of the Tao Te Ching makes me this pissed off, I'd appreciate the enlightenment.

[BabylonHoruv]

"Robustness" is probably a subjective idea.  If you want a good subjective metric for reality tunnels, use "pleasurable" or "fun".  They won't do you wrong.

So, given the choice, you'd happily plug yourself into the matrix if it gave you a program which guaranteed that for you?

Hell yes, what do you think I am doing on the internet?

[Kai]

Flinging shit with bare hands, and hanging around in a zoo all day, is seemingly good enough for my ancestors.

Did you just diss yourself? That would have to be some really really recent evolution. Or... Ota Benga was your grandpa?!?!?!

If we share ~99% of our DNA with chimps, that doesn't seem so far away as to not consider them ancestors.

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

I will kill a motherfucker.

[Captain Utopia]

Existence of multiple realities is a matter of speculation in physics.

By that measure, so is a single reality.

Are you saying that there is no evidence that this reality exists?

No, I was just pointing out the pointlessness of the original premise.

But logically speaking, there is no flaw. There is, from a physics perspective, ample evidence that this reality exists. There is no evidence that multiple realities exist. Therefore, the existence of multiple realities is speculation, but the existence of a single reality (this one) is not.

If that's true, then I was wrong.

Back to the original point though, the OP didn't mention quantum effects, nor require them implicitly.

What do you mean, "if that's true?"? Do you mean that you don't have a scientific background and did not research your statement before you made it?

No - you've got me - I didn't research the statement where I argue for the existence of multiple realities at all. Unfortunately for me though, I don't exist in the universe where the original parent to this thread makes any reference or mention of multiple realities - and that part is really confusing me.

What puzzled me before is the double-slit experiment, which I've always seen described in terms of waveform collapse, as that would seem to imply the existence of multiple universes - at _least_ for a brief period of time. I didn't research the discrepancy,, and I wasn't entirely convinced, but I gave you a technical point with an "if that's true" primarily because it's not relevant to anything I've been saying at all.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "scientific background".

[Captain Utopia]

The main problem here is burden of proof

If your arguing for this existence of this reality there really isn't any burden of proof there, we more or less know this reality exists through laws and experience, ect. there are always really weird ideas way out in left field that say even this reality is nonexistent and they really can't be disproven, but have no evidence in support so therefore can be more or less rejected for now.
If your arguing for multiple realities then first you have to prove it is indeed possible (and from what I read this is still debatable) but even then, possibly does not mean existence.

In other words the burden of proof is on multiple realities not on a singular reality.

...which is pretty much what Nigel said

The burden of proof rests upon you - show me where I argue for the existence of any reality schema in the OP.

[Captain Utopia]

Feng shui and the Tao Te Ching have little to do with one another, aside from both being Chinese in origin.  Of course, a lot of the Tao Te Ching consists of references to obscure meditation practices that we don't have a clue about.

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to anything, or what this thread is about.

Just ranting against mysticism in general, especially the tendency to imbue it with more meaning that it actually can be shown to contain, when this thread started off discussing tangible and measurable things.

Are occasional rants acceptable here?

[Kai]

Feng shui and the Tao Te Ching have little to do with one another, aside from both being Chinese in origin.  Of course, a lot of the Tao Te Ching consists of references to obscure meditation practices that we don't have a clue about.

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to anything, or what this thread is about.

Just ranting against mysticism in general, especially the tendency to imbue it with more meaning that it actually can be shown to contain, when this thread started off discussing tangible and measurable things.

Are occasional rants acceptable here?

Mysticism is in short finding the sacred (whatever that might be to you) in everyday life and ordinary things, direct experience rather than through some intermediary. You can layer maps on top of that definition but thats all it is really beneath the symbols. Because of this, you can give things as much or as little meaning as you desire.

What puzzled me before is the double-slit experiment, which I've always seen described in terms of waveform collapse, as that would seem to imply the existence of multiple universes - at _least_ for a brief period of time. I didn't research the discrepancy,, and I wasn't entirely convinced, but I gave you a technical point with an "if that's true" primarily because it's not relevant to anything I've been saying at all.

Please to search for LMNO and "quantum" for great understanding of above.

Also, please don't talk about evolution again. Statements like "If we share ~99% of our DNA with chimps, that doesn't seem so far away as to not consider them ancestors" are the reason so many others are confused about this stuff; you act like you know what you're talking about but you don't know shit.

[Captain Utopia]

Mysticism is in short finding the sacred (whatever that might be to you) in everyday life and ordinary things, direct experience rather than through some intermediary. You can layer maps on top of that definition but thats all it is really beneath the symbols. Because of this, you can give things as much or as little meaning as you desire.

Isn't it all maps and symbols? If it's just about finding and experiencing the sacred in everything, then surely _any_ religion will do?

Once you start saying "that's the way it is because that's the way it is" then you've just given progress a hefty kick to the crotch.

What puzzled me before is the double-slit experiment, which I've always seen described in terms of waveform collapse, as that would seem to imply the existence of multiple universes - at _least_ for a brief period of time. I didn't research the discrepancy,, and I wasn't entirely convinced, but I gave you a technical point with an "if that's true" primarily because it's not relevant to anything I've been saying at all.

Please to search for LMNO and "quantum" for great understanding of above.

Search came back with pages and pages of metafap, still not sure of what you're trying to say.

Also, please don't talk about evolution again. Statements like "If we share ~99% of our DNA with chimps, that doesn't seem so far away as to not consider them ancestors" are the reason so many others are confused about this stuff; you act like you know what you're talking about but you don't know shit.

If we take our ancestors, as the original poster did, as a barometer of what we should consider "valid choices" then please explain to me how the reference to the amount of genetic material we share is an irrelevant point. Putting aside my mistake with ancestry/cousins - the DNA is the agent of replication, not the host.

And I'll talk about evolution until I get it right. Emergence seems to be one of the most important features of the universe, I'm not going to stop trying to understand more about it just because you choose to get sanctimonious on my ass. Educate me, please.

[LMNO]

The Tao you can discuss is not the true Tao.  (Alternate forms: replace Tao with System, Way, or Chao)

Who says?

Kurt Gödel, for one.