So, the Shia LaBeef Thing... (WARNING possible triggers)

[Faust]

That last post of mine was pretty cold and unsympathetic. I've never been in a sexual assault, so it's impossible for me to theorize. Obviously.

It is a difficult scenario for me to visualize, which only illustrates how out of depth of knowledge I am. I'm truly sorry if I've offended, or inadvertently triggered, anyone.

I don't understand it.

Reading more on it seems stranger and stranger. He didn't break from character for some hours after the rape. Including when his girlfriend, who had been down the line entered asking him about it because part of the exhibit was not to respond.

It probably wouldn't be much use but no police report has been filed yet either, considering this happened 8 months ago now it probably would be hard to find the woman, even if they have the video of her.

[minuspace]

That last post of mine was pretty cold and unsympathetic. I've never been in a sexual assault, so it's impossible for me to theorize. Obviously.

It is a difficult scenario for me to visualize, which only illustrates how out of depth of knowledge I am. I'm truly sorry if I've offended, or inadvertently triggered, anyone.

I don't understand it.

Reading more on it seems stranger and stranger. He didn't break from character for some hours after the rape. Including when his girlfriend, who had been down the line entered asking him about it because part of the exhibit was not to respond.

It probably wouldn't be much use but no police report has been filed yet either, considering this happened 8 months ago now it probably would be hard to find the woman, even if they have the video of her.

If you were really looking for her, the "boyfriend" might be an easier lead,  although I suspect he might be trained to manage such extraneous encounters in a manner that is neither fair, nor square.

[Cain]

So, I learnt something today which may help make sense of this.

Shia LeBouef was apparently raised in a fairly abusive household.  As, in his father was a Vietnam vet with PTSD and was frequently verbally and physically violent, even pulling a gun on him at one point. 

[LMNO]

Yes, this is Wikipedia, but it's really, really hard to find specific information about the performance due to the internetabloids clickbaiting this story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_LaBeouf#Performance_art

LaBeouf, Rönkkö and Turner staged a six day performance in a Los Angeles gallery entitled #IAMSORRY, in which LaBeouf sat wearing a tuxedo and the paper bag, silently crying in front of visitors.[69][71] Attendees were allowed to enter one at a time, and invited to choose an item from a table of "implements" to take in with them, including a Transformers toy, an Indiana Jones whip, a bottle of Jack Daniel's, a pair of pliers, a ukulele, a bowl full of hateful tweets directed at LaBeouf, and a copy of Clowes's book The Death-Ray.[72][73] Time columnist Joel Stein, who spent three days waiting in line to see the performance, observed that LaBeouf "was immensely present," and that "he was whatever was projected upon him,"[74] while Kate Knibbs of The Daily Dot found the experience "genuinely disturbing", and "felt like I was further dehumanizing someone whose humanity I'd discounted."[75] The Daily Beast's Andrew Romano opined that "there was more going on in those few seconds than in a lot of contemporary art. LaBeouf's look-at-me Internet penance ritual had become an actual moment between actual people."[73]

Compare with, not The Artist is Present, but Rhythm 0:

To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Abramović developed one of her most challenging (and best-known) performances. She assigned a passive role to herself, with the public being the force which would act on her. Abramović placed on a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, olive oil, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions.

Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained passive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: "What I learned was that... if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you." ... "I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation."[7]

As I said above, I have an irrational bias against Shia, but he seems to have genuinely embraced the spirit and purpose behind modern performance art, in which both viewer and viewed are actively engaged in the process, with each informing the other.  The normal way we use the word "Art" really loses it's meaning when brought to levels such as this; it becomes existential, in the dictionary definition, rather than the philosophical, where the performance is tied to the artist's existence.

So in terms of the OP question, for the artist to call an end to the performance would be almost unthinkable. 

[hooplala]

Yes, this is Wikipedia, but it's really, really hard to find specific information about the performance due to the internetabloids clickbaiting this story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_LaBeouf#Performance_art

LaBeouf, Rönkkö and Turner staged a six day performance in a Los Angeles gallery entitled #IAMSORRY, in which LaBeouf sat wearing a tuxedo and the paper bag, silently crying in front of visitors.[69][71] Attendees were allowed to enter one at a time, and invited to choose an item from a table of "implements" to take in with them, including a Transformers toy, an Indiana Jones whip, a bottle of Jack Daniel's, a pair of pliers, a ukulele, a bowl full of hateful tweets directed at LaBeouf, and a copy of Clowes's book The Death-Ray.[72][73] Time columnist Joel Stein, who spent three days waiting in line to see the performance, observed that LaBeouf "was immensely present," and that "he was whatever was projected upon him,"[74] while Kate Knibbs of The Daily Dot found the experience "genuinely disturbing", and "felt like I was further dehumanizing someone whose humanity I'd discounted."[75] The Daily Beast's Andrew Romano opined that "there was more going on in those few seconds than in a lot of contemporary art. LaBeouf's look-at-me Internet penance ritual had become an actual moment between actual people."[73]

Compare with, not The Artist is Present, but Rhythm 0:

To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Abramović developed one of her most challenging (and best-known) performances. She assigned a passive role to herself, with the public being the force which would act on her. Abramović placed on a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, olive oil, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions.

Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained passive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: "What I learned was that... if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you." ... "I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation."[7]

As I said above, I have an irrational bias against Shia, but he seems to have genuinely embraced the spirit and purpose behind modern performance art, in which both viewer and viewed are actively engaged in the process, with each informing the other.  The normal way we use the word "Art" really loses it's meaning when brought to levels such as this; it becomes existential, in the dictionary definition, rather than the philosophical, where the performance is tied to the artist's existence.

So in terms of the OP question, for the artist to call an end to the performance would be almost unthinkable.

Granted, and that is the level of commitment I admired earlier in the thread. I'm not sure I could uphold that, despite my love of art.

The art, to me, is more in the reactions than in the "artist", but it's definitely some form of union.  It's interesting how quickly people devolve to heinous acts, if they think there is no comeuppance. Interesting, in that sort of way...

[LMNO]

I really couldn't go that far, either.  I generally draw the line at "entertainment", although that has a pretty broad scope, as I've done my fair share of "confrontational" performances (back when I was a punker).

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

That last post of mine was pretty cold and unsympathetic. I've never been in a sexual assault, so it's impossible for me to theorize. Obviously.

It is a difficult scenario for me to visualize, which only illustrates how out of depth of knowledge I am. I'm truly sorry if I've offended, or inadvertently triggered, anyone.

I don't understand it.

Reading more on it seems stranger and stranger. He didn't break from character for some hours after the rape. Including when his girlfriend, who had been down the line entered asking him about it because part of the exhibit was not to respond.

It probably wouldn't be much use but no police report has been filed yet either, considering this happened 8 months ago now it probably would be hard to find the woman, even if they have the video of her.

He very probably was in shock, and just kept doing what he was doing because "breaking character" would involve thinking about and dealing with the experience.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That last post of mine was pretty cold and unsympathetic. I've never been in a sexual assault, so it's impossible for me to theorize. Obviously.

It is a difficult scenario for me to visualize, which only illustrates how out of depth of knowledge I am. I'm truly sorry if I've offended, or inadvertently triggered, anyone.

I don't understand it.

Reading more on it seems stranger and stranger. He didn't break from character for some hours after the rape. Including when his girlfriend, who had been down the line entered asking him about it because part of the exhibit was not to respond.

It probably wouldn't be much use but no police report has been filed yet either, considering this happened 8 months ago now it probably would be hard to find the woman, even if they have the video of her.

When I was raped when I was 15, I didn't tell anyone. I went on with my life, looking from the outside as if it never happened.

When I was sexually assaulted walking home a couple of years ago, I told almost no one. You wouldn't have known about it from talking to me the next day.

What's the use? To participate in a courtroom or media circus? To get all the salacious details pried out and laid on the table for the skeptics to view and judge whether my behavior was acceptable, or whether I asked for it? For everyone to question whether it was really rape, or whether I was a willing participant who simply changed my mind afterward (because all the judging and questioning and prying and blaming isn't worse than being raped is... not at all).

All that happens is that everyone wants to know why you didn't scream, didn't run away, or didn't fight back. And how, if you were really raped, you can act so normal.

I talk about it now because I have some distance and a lot of therapy.

[Faust]

I guess, but when you have video evidence of the person that's pretty irrefutable evidence.

But I understand if he would not get any benefit from the media circus that would surround the court case and the negative attention the video evidence, so maybe just talking about it to the media is the best he can get.

[lavkian]

Yes, this is Wikipedia, but it's really, really hard to find specific information about the performance due to the internetabloids clickbaiting this story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_LaBeouf#Performance_art

LaBeouf, Rönkkö and Turner staged a six day performance in a Los Angeles gallery entitled #IAMSORRY, in which LaBeouf sat wearing a tuxedo and the paper bag, silently crying in front of visitors.[69][71] Attendees were allowed to enter one at a time, and invited to choose an item from a table of "implements" to take in with them, including a Transformers toy, an Indiana Jones whip, a bottle of Jack Daniel's, a pair of pliers, a ukulele, a bowl full of hateful tweets directed at LaBeouf, and a copy of Clowes's book The Death-Ray.[72][73] Time columnist Joel Stein, who spent three days waiting in line to see the performance, observed that LaBeouf "was immensely present," and that "he was whatever was projected upon him,"[74] while Kate Knibbs of The Daily Dot found the experience "genuinely disturbing", and "felt like I was further dehumanizing someone whose humanity I'd discounted."[75] The Daily Beast's Andrew Romano opined that "there was more going on in those few seconds than in a lot of contemporary art. LaBeouf's look-at-me Internet penance ritual had become an actual moment between actual people."[73]

Compare with, not The Artist is Present, but Rhythm 0:

To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Abramović developed one of her most challenging (and best-known) performances. She assigned a passive role to herself, with the public being the force which would act on her. Abramović placed on a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, olive oil, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions.

Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained passive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: "What I learned was that... if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you." ... "I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation."[7]

As I said above, I have an irrational bias against Shia, but he seems to have genuinely embraced the spirit and purpose behind modern performance art, in which both viewer and viewed are actively engaged in the process, with each informing the other.  The normal way we use the word "Art" really loses it's meaning when brought to levels such as this; it becomes existential, in the dictionary definition, rather than the philosophical, where the performance is tied to the artist's existence.

So in terms of the OP question, for the artist to call an end to the performance would be almost unthinkable.

That is terrifying; the art piece and the fact that she left a gun and a bullet on the table. I mean, was the gun set not to go off? What if someone had actually pulled the trigger? Holy shit.

I'm really glad Shia came forward with this, because it'll be very interesting to see how it plays out. The only actual time I've seen a story of female-on-male rape was an episode of Law and Order which... come to think of it, was probably based on a real case, but who knows when that particular case was.

Also really glad (not glad) to see that victim blamers aren't sexist!

[hooplala]

Marina Abramović is, from what I've seen, fearless.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gun was ready to go.

There are photos, btw, from that particular performance of hers... they are a little disturbing.

[Faust]

Marina Abramović is, from what I've seen, fearless.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gun was ready to go.

There are photos, btw, from that particular performance of hers... they are a little disturbing.

Holy shit, thats the broken glass eating, cuts herself woman I saw in spain. She was fascinating and as you say fearless, but I couldn't watch most of it.

[LMNO]

Marina Abramović is, from what I've seen, fearless.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gun was ready to go.

There are photos, btw, from that particular performance of hers... they are a little disturbing.

She has publicly supported Shia's performance, so if you want a bit of appeal to authority... you couldn't do much better.

[hooplala]

Marina Abramović is, from what I've seen, fearless.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gun was ready to go.

There are photos, btw, from that particular performance of hers... they are a little disturbing.

She has publicly supported Shia's performance, so if you want a bit of appeal to authority... you couldn't do much better.

Hey maybe he will ditch movies to make art, who knows?  He was sort of preemptively undermined by that Joaquin Phoenix stunt a few years earlier...

I think people are generally over celebs doing weird shit and calling it 'performance art' after the fact.  Which, to a degree, I can understand... these people make squillions of dollars, are given free swag constantly, get the best seats, and then we're supposed to indulge them when the whim takes them to make performance art too? 

I'd like a performance art show where people lined up at the door.  I'd like to do an album of Tom Waits covers.  I'd like to write a novel on a whim and know it will get published on my name alone.  Not going to happen anytime soon.

My sour grapes have run me off topic here... luckily, this is my thread.

[Demolition Squid]

To play devil's advocate a bit, it must be horrifying to realize that you may well have peaked in your early twenties. Then you've got the huge amount of hate you generate just by having your face. Sure, again, you get the opposite sometimes and maybe that is nice... but in both cases, you've got a huge proportion of the people you meet in your day to day life who think they know you without ever having met you before. That must be a very alienating experience.

Sure, money helps blunt the sting of it - but I can't condemn someone for trying to pursue a career in art to find meaning in another way. I'm pretty sure I couldn't deal with being famous, it'd melt my brain.