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Still haven't got the hang of this "freedom of religion" thing...

Started by Cain, November 30, 2009, 10:22:20 AM

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Halfbaked1

57% of the Swiss people said yes.  The majority can't be wrong, can they? :lol:

Cain

I found someone willing to defend this (someone who isn't a member of a neo-fascist party, anyway, naturally they're all overjoyed):

hxxp://jmw.typepad.com/political_warfare/2009/11/why-the-swiss-vote-against-minarets-is-so-important.html

QuoteSix out of ten Swiss voters acted on facts that many in the western democracies still fail to recognize: The political warfare battle that Islamist extremists are waging against free societies.

Last weekend's referendum to ban the further construction of minarets in Switzerland was not against the religious aspects of Islam - it was specifically a defensive mechanism against the legal and political revolutions that Islamists are waging against secular democracies.

The surprise Swiss vote was a significant fightback against creeping sharia law that is corroding the free fabric of much of Europe and North America. We should be applauding the Swiss for their stand. They remain tolerant of the religious freedoms of hundreds of thousands of Muslims who live in their country, but draw the line on sharia practices that would undermine their democratic way of life.

Western liberals, Islamic leaders, the government Iran and, surprisingly, the Vatican, condemned the vote. But the critics miss the point: The vote was not against religion, but was a line against foreign political encroachment.

Proponents of the minaret ban "said from the outset that they were not seeking to prevent Muslims from practicing their religion," the Washington Post reports.

"We just want to stop further Islamisation in Switzerland, I mean political Islam. People may practice their religion, that is no problem," Swiss MP Walter Wobmann tells Reuters. "The minaret is the power symbol of political Islam and Sharia law."
The minaret is "a political symbol against integration; a symbol more of segregation, and first of all, a symbol to try to introduce sharia law parallel to Swiss rights," Swiss MP Ulrich Schlüer tells the Los Angeles Times.
"On one hand Islam is a religion. But on the other hand Islam grants its followers a certain social behaviour. Islam requires its followers to apply certain rules, a certain religious law that we call Sharia. And Sharia law is not at all compatible with our law as it stands today in this country, Switzerland. Our law and Sharia law are at odds with each other," Schlüer says in Euronews.
"The outcome of the vote is a reflection of the fears and uncertainties that exist among the population, and concerns that Islamic fundamentalist ideas could lead to the establishment of parallel societies," Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf says in Time magazine. The minister adds, "marginalization and exclusion on the basis of religious and cultural differences would be devastating for an open country such as Switzerland."

That's precisely the point. Islamist radicals for a decade have tried to silence their critics by branding them as racists and bigots, all the while imposing their political symbolism and demanding acceptance of their un-democratic ideology. They're doing it again right now. Indeed, the Swiss are facing a global backlash.

"Initiative sponsors said they wanted to prevent Islamic extremism from seeping across the borders from other European countries with large Muslim populations," according to the LA Times. "'When you look at the European Union, where are there extremists?' asks Schlüer, the member of parliament. 'In the suburbs and ghetto banlieues of Paris and London. . . . We don't want that in Switzerland.'

"He said Muslims were welcome in Switzerland but must assimilate into Swiss society."

And that's the point that practically all the critics - from the Muslim, Christian, "progressive" and business sectors - seem willfully to miss.

Yes, if only we had stopped minarets from being built, then the 7/7 bombings and Madrid attacks never would've happened.  Speaking as someone who had someone very close to me involved in the 7/7 bombings and who was in London directly after the attacks, I have to say that is an appalling piece of political sophistry.  Reading this is like having a burnt corpse dropped in my morning coffee

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

It's strange. I talk to people who otherwise seem like decent human beings, but are fine with calling gay people faggots and say that Islam is a flat out despicable religion.

I wouldn't be surprised if something like this catches on in the US.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

BabylonHoruv

Quote from: Requia ☣ on November 30, 2009, 08:33:31 PM
They banned a kind of architecture?

That's what a minaret is right, a kind of church tower?  There's not some second meaning I don't know of?  Cause it would help stop the screaming if it was something else.

it's used to broadcast muezzin, the call to prayer.

And if they have defined it that way, as a tower used to broadcast a call to prayer, then it very much bans new church towers if they have bells in em.

They did probably put a specific reference to Islam in there and I have no idea how deep Swiss freedom of religion is.  I know this would not fly in the US because of the first amendment.
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

Merely by being alive, you make everyone just a little more miserable

-Dok Howl

LMNO

I'm still unsure how Sharia law is could "take over".

Even in the pro-Christian US, when certain Xtian groups "follow their own law", they're arrested.

I mean, you can have a religious belief to eat babies, but that doesn't mean the state will allow you to do it.





Cain

Well LMNO, you see, misguided liberals and socialists (who coincidentally opposed the War on Iraq, fucking traitors) are secretly being duped by an international Muslim conspiracy which is spread through Muslim charities, mosques and banks, which is all financed by Saudi Arabian oil money.  The plan is to turn Europe into Eurabia, through some secret treaty which doesn't actually exist but nevermind that, and when it is done, flood Europe with Muslim immigrants who will then vote for the laws to be changed.  And, once they implement Shariah Law over the continent, they can use the blood of Christian babies in their evil Eid celebrations, or whatever it is evil Muslims (ie all of them) do when they are not plotting to overthrow the West or go on jihad.

LMNO


Triple Zero

Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 01, 2009, 07:06:34 AM
Pointy mini-barns, FTW.

make it a brauhaus, selling beer and pork. piss off both parties at the same time!!
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cait M. R.

Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2009, 08:42:06 AM
I found someone willing to defend this (someone who isn't a member of a neo-fascist party, anyway, naturally they're all overjoyed):

hxxp://jmw.typepad.com/political_warfare/2009/11/why-the-swiss-vote-against-minarets-is-so-important.html

QuoteSix out of ten Swiss voters acted on facts that many in the western democracies still fail to recognize: The political warfare battle that Islamist extremists are waging against free societies.

Last weekend's referendum to ban the further construction of minarets in Switzerland was not against the religious aspects of Islam - it was specifically a defensive mechanism against the legal and political revolutions that Islamists are waging against secular democracies.

The surprise Swiss vote was a significant fightback against creeping sharia law that is corroding the free fabric of much of Europe and North America. We should be applauding the Swiss for their stand. They remain tolerant of the religious freedoms of hundreds of thousands of Muslims who live in their country, but draw the line on sharia practices that would undermine their democratic way of life.

Western liberals, Islamic leaders, the government Iran and, surprisingly, the Vatican, condemned the vote. But the critics miss the point: The vote was not against religion, but was a line against foreign political encroachment.

Proponents of the minaret ban "said from the outset that they were not seeking to prevent Muslims from practicing their religion," the Washington Post reports.

"We just want to stop further Islamisation in Switzerland, I mean political Islam. People may practice their religion, that is no problem," Swiss MP Walter Wobmann tells Reuters. "The minaret is the power symbol of political Islam and Sharia law."
The minaret is "a political symbol against integration; a symbol more of segregation, and first of all, a symbol to try to introduce sharia law parallel to Swiss rights," Swiss MP Ulrich Schlüer tells the Los Angeles Times.
"On one hand Islam is a religion. But on the other hand Islam grants its followers a certain social behaviour. Islam requires its followers to apply certain rules, a certain religious law that we call Sharia. And Sharia law is not at all compatible with our law as it stands today in this country, Switzerland. Our law and Sharia law are at odds with each other," Schlüer says in Euronews.
"The outcome of the vote is a reflection of the fears and uncertainties that exist among the population, and concerns that Islamic fundamentalist ideas could lead to the establishment of parallel societies," Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf says in Time magazine. The minister adds, "marginalization and exclusion on the basis of religious and cultural differences would be devastating for an open country such as Switzerland."

That's precisely the point. Islamist radicals for a decade have tried to silence their critics by branding them as racists and bigots, all the while imposing their political symbolism and demanding acceptance of their un-democratic ideology. They're doing it again right now. Indeed, the Swiss are facing a global backlash.

"Initiative sponsors said they wanted to prevent Islamic extremism from seeping across the borders from other European countries with large Muslim populations," according to the LA Times. "'When you look at the European Union, where are there extremists?' asks Schlüer, the member of parliament. 'In the suburbs and ghetto banlieues of Paris and London. . . . We don't want that in Switzerland.'

"He said Muslims were welcome in Switzerland but must assimilate into Swiss society."

And that's the point that practically all the critics - from the Muslim, Christian, "progressive" and business sectors - seem willfully to miss.

Yes, if only we had stopped minarets from being built, then the 7/7 bombings and Madrid attacks never would've happened.  Speaking as someone who had someone very close to me involved in the 7/7 bombings and who was in London directly after the attacks, I have to say that is an appalling piece of political sophistry.  Reading this is like having a burnt corpse dropped in my morning coffee

I'm really sorry.

Quote from: Triple Zero on December 01, 2009, 05:20:24 PM
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 01, 2009, 07:06:34 AM
Pointy mini-barns, FTW.

make it a brauhaus, selling beer and pork. piss off both parties at the same time!!

THIS.

Cain

More Ponderous Thoughts from the Great British Public:

QuoteMinarets yawn...

QuoteWhat rubbish some of you lot write. What religious freedom do those christians living in Arab countries have? Are there churches where they can worship – no – not allowed. Get your facts right before you write drivel. At least the Swiss get a choice. Most Europeans have to put up with decisions of politicians for their own selfish ends. Why else was the UK denied a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, and the Irish gov't forced by the EU to hold a 2nd referendum. Democracy is dead in Europe!
Adam Smith, London

I'm not entirely sure who Smith is addressing here. In observing Proper BBC Impartiality, the HYS moderators have naturally ignored anyone not rabidly in favour of the minaret ban and filled the entire thread with the same post over and over, as if William Burroughs did 500 cut-ups of the same BNP leaflet and expelled them like half-digested coackroaches from an ailing gut clogging up the oesophagus of the internet. In fact, I like to imagine that the average HYS post is nothing more than the stream-of-consciousness fingerdribble of a smacked-up fuckhead. It's the only explanation that doesn't hurl me screaming into a fit of existential despair.

QuoteI have just been 'somewhat surprised' to hear the BBC's reporter's comments about religious symbols that might be acceptable, pointing to the Christmas tree behind her. I beg rather strongly to differ, but the Christmas tree is NOT a 'religious' symbol in any way, shape or form; Yes, it has been adopted by western societies to be part of our Christmas tradition, but it is no more religious than the Christmas card, pudding or cracker! So, please, let's not get minarets and trees in the same boat.
Jerome, Redhill

Unless it was, like, a fucking really big boat, of course, like a cruise liner or one of them ones that planes go on. Then it might be alright.

QuoteWell done the Swiss! At last a strong message is sent to all those Muslim extremists who think that people are too passive to oppose the takeover of their country. Until when for every mosque built in a christian country a church in a muslim country is allowed to be built, muslims should not take freedom of religion as granted. That might help them to understand the true meaning of sacrificing your own space in the name of tolerance!
Marco Furlan

Woof! Holding all Muslims responsible for the actions and infrastructures of all predominantly Muslim nations, from Bosnia and Herzegovina, through Iran to Indonesia... That kind of talk could make a man erect. Not me, though. I'm not an idiot.

QuoteMinarets and religion are just symptoms of a problem. Let's face the facts. It is a natural instinct of humans to defend and preserve their racial background, culture and history. Anything perceived as a threat to those qualities is regarded by most as invasive and obnoxious, and so it has been throughout history. Man-made laws to eradicate so-called "racism" cannot change human inborn instinct.

So the Swiss vote should not surprise anybody. It's the way we are made.
[Anglobert], Surrey, United Kingdom

Governing societies on base human instinct! It's so simple! Why did no-one think of it before?

QuoteCan someone tell me – Are you allowed to build a Cathedral in Mecca?
Allan, Afghanistan

HA HA HA HA HA. No matter how many times you see this same clever point reiterated clever point reiterated clever point reiterated like a stuck CD player in Hell, it never stops being utterly fucking fascinating.

Mind, I haven't checked for a few days, but I'm pretty sure Switzerland is still not a place of particular religious significance for Christians. Try building a mosque in the Vatican, Allan, see where that gets you. Shot, hopefully.

QuoteInstead of banning minarets and headscarfs Europeans should ban immigration from Muslim countries, then the issue of cultural transgression will be moot.Half measures will not save Europe, otherwise 50 years later you will have to fight a Reconquista Yugoslavian style or convert to to Islam.
Nick, New York

Believe me, I've tried – Lord, how I've tried! – but I just can't think of a response to this that doesn't invoke Godwin's Law. Try it for yourself – it's impossible!

QuoteI tire of hearing what Muslims are or are not. They are what they demonstrate themselves to be–if they don't want to be known as a bunch of genocidal fanatics, perhaps they should alter their behavior. If Swiss voters don't want their skylines to look like Baghdad, then they have a right to say so. Brits take note–you're so intimidated that you won't even sing carols or put up a Christmas tree for fear of offending the Muslims.
sim, CARLSBAD

Jesus... If anyone needs me, I'll be sitting catatonic in the chair by the window.

http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/2009/12/04/not-racism-just-institutional-alienation/

Iason Ouabache

So the basic theme is that Muslim countries don't have freedom of religion therefore we shouldn't have freedom of religion. How exactly does that work?
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
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Reginald Ret

Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 04, 2009, 11:49:13 PM
So the basic theme is that Muslim countries don't have freedom of religion therefore we shouldn't have freedom of religion. How exactly does that work?
IT'S SCIENCE!

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
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Cain

Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 04, 2009, 11:49:13 PM
So the basic theme is that Muslim countries don't have freedom of religion therefore we shouldn't have freedom of religion. How exactly does that work?

1. All Muslims everywhere are responsible for the actions of their governments.  Kind of like how you are personally responsible for torture, kidnapping and waging aggressive war.  Only more so, because Muslim countries are mostly military dictatorships or monarchies, and so are even more accountable.

2.  We show how we are better than them, by acting exactly the same!

Cain

Minaret Madness has spread to Germany

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,676156,00.html

QuoteA small Muslim community in a western German town would like to build a minaret on its mosque. But the plan has triggered passionate opposition from locals, many of whom rely on rhetoric from the extreme right in railing against the "symbol of Islam's quest for power."

"Willkommen," reads the stencilled print on the wall along the riverside boardwalk in the small town of Völklingen. Not content to just welcome its German guests, however, the message is translated into a number of languages. "Bienvenue ... bienvenidos ... velkommen," it reads. And "hosgeldiniz," a nod to the city's substantial Turkish population.

Elsewhere in the city -- particularly in the quarter known as Wehrden -- Muslim immigrants may not feel quite as welcome. A small mosque on the banks of the Saar River there has applied for a permit to build a small minaret on its roof -- triggering a wave of at-times vehement protest reminiscent of the fuss surrounding the November 2009 referendum in Switzerland to ban minarets in the country.

"I am against the Islamification of our fatherland!" reads a message, posted by "Tommy" on the Web site of the local paper Saarbrücker Zeitung. "Islam is the greatest threat facing humanity," he adds.

In a town meeting held on the subject in late January, a number of locals came out against the minaret plan. According to Berlin daily Die Tageszeitung, several expressed fears that Germany was being "infiltrated" by "the Turks."

The plan foresees a minaret stretching a mere eight meters (26 feet) above the roof. The head of the Turkish-Muslim community planning the minaret, Adnan Atakli, has assured locals that there are no plans to broadcast calls to prayer from the minaret and that he merely sees it as an "ornament."

Doesn't Shy Away from Far-Right Rhetoric

And not everyone has come out against the plans. Many have pointed out that such an adornment would only improve the not-terribly-attractive quarter where the mosque is located. Furthermore, almost 10 percent of the Völklingen population is made up of immigrants, many of them Muslims. Some say it only makes sense that they be allowed to build a small minaret.

Still, politesse has hardly characterized the debate in Völklingen. Indeed, the back and forth is reminiscent of the campaign in Cologne in 2008 to block the construction of a mosque there. The campaign was led by a group called Pro-Cologne, a group that doesn't shy away from far-right rhetoric. Similar debates have taken place in numerous European countries as the right wing seeks to tap into widespread skepticism toward Islam.

The Swiss referendum, which saw 57.5 percent of voters come out against the minaret ban, clearly showed just how anchored anti-Muslim sentiment may be in Europe. Indeed, a group called Pro-NRW (short for the German state North Rhine-Westphalia) now plans to cooperate with right-wing political parties in numerous European countries to organize a European Union-wide minaret referendum.

Islam's 'Quest for Power'

The debate in Völklingen is once again showing how quickly right-wing rhetoric can cross over into the mainstream when it comes to debates on Islam in Europe. Local right-wing extremists -- two of whom are in the Völklingen city council -- have argued that minarets are "symbols of Turkish dominance." They point to a speech given by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in February 2008 in Cologne. In it, he said that "mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets and the believers are our soldiers."

The Völklingen mosque belongs to the Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs (DITIB), which has close ties to Turkey. "We are being quietly infiltrated by the Turks!" said one participant at the late January town meeting, according to Die Tageszeitung.

The local news paper, however, has used the exact same rhetoric on its editorial pages. "This minaret should not be built," the Saarbrücker Zeitung wrote in late January. "It symbolizes Islam's quest for power and is nothing less than a provocation. In the course of the Muslim conquests, minarets were first used as watch towers and only subsequently as religious symbols. Following the violent seizure of new territories, minarets were built as manifestations of Muslim rule."

Minaret opponents are now looking into the possibility of holding a referendum on the issue in Völklingen. Yet another one.

When oh when will people stop mistaking symbolic issues for, er, actual issues?

tyrannosaurus vex

when will the far Christian Right and the far Muslim Right realize they are actually the same, and unite against the rest of us?
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.