Volume of Thoughts

[Cainad (dec.)]

Tried experiment in OP; couldn't get any real distinctions.

My thought process is a continuous stream of dialogue. It's basically me talking to imaginary versions of everyone I know well enough to imagine how they'd respond, all the time. Images are few, vague, and not especially vivid unless the memory is very fresh. Scents are right out; I can remember that something or other had a strong scent and my reaction to it, but not the scent itself.

Imagine the people closer and farther away.


Good thread.

WOAH

That's awesome. You clever bastard.

Tried experiment in OP; couldn't get any real distinctions.

My thought process is a continuous stream of dialogue. It's basically me talking to imaginary versions of everyone I know well enough to imagine how they'd respond, all the time. Images are few, vague, and not especially vivid unless the memory is very fresh. Scents are right out; I can remember that something or other had a strong scent and my reaction to it, but not the scent itself.

That sounds much more interesting than my usual dull monologue, I'm going to give that a try too.  Do you ever get confused between having told an imaginary version of a friend something and the actual person?

Excellent scope for self-mindfucks ITT.

Not confused enough to cause problems with the real person or make them think I'm crazy, but I do sometimes get excited or very angry at what the person's cardboard-cutout-in-my-head said. When that happens I'm always very careful to compose myself before talking to the person for real. When the real person's response isn't like what my brain imagined it to be, it's usually a pleasant surprise; the real people are way more interesting than the simulacra in my mind.

[Captain Utopia]

I often employ something I call "icons" (there's prolly a better word for it - I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's thought of it) as a shothand to internal dialogues. Quite often I can cover whole conversations by flicking through a bunch of these. I've tried to describe them to people plenty times but it never really comes out right. For a kick off "icons" prolly isn't the best description. It's not like I imagine a little picture, more like I immerse my self in a real or imagined state of being appropriate to whatever situation an internal monologue would be employed to deal with or work out.

For instance - my thinking is heading in a depression kinda direction. The clue is in that my monologue usually becomes sorta negative reinforcing also really circular. As soon as I cotton on to this (doesn't usually take long) I place myself in a kinda desert, in black and white with a weird sort of buzzing, roiling black cloud unseen but clearly experienced, kinda above and behind me. At this point the solution to the situation will be straight in front of me. Saves on ages of imagined conversations and shit.

Like I said - it's really fucking hard to explain, I'm putting this out there just in case someone else does this and can put it into better words than me.

I don't really visualise anything, but certain avenues of thought/concepts definitely have a sort of "mental shape" to them.  It sounds like they work in a similar way to your "icons", in that I can piece them together in any order, or apply them individually to situations.  I think "icons" is quite an apt name really, in that you click an icon on a computer to load a particular program, and similarly this is something in your brain which you "load" to get to where you want to be.  Unless we're talking about completely different things?

[P3nT4gR4m]

that's very interesting... could you elaborate more on it? I'm intrigued by the idea of teaching yourself mental shorthand and non-verbal reasoning.

I really don't think I can. The thing with non-verbal reasoning is it doesn't seem to fit into words. I can give more examples if that's any use to you. When I'm packing stuff for a trip I have a cupboard with all my camping and wilderness gear in it. When I look at the objects in the cupboard they get superimposed with either red or green colour, depending on whether I need them or not for this particular expedition. It sounds like I'm putting in less thought and, tbh it feels that way in practice but believe me I make a lot less mistakes in terms of taking shit I don't need or forgetting stuff I do than back when I was reliant on mental chit chat to make the decisions. I think when I did stuff-selection the old way my attention was much more likely to wander off on tangents and shit then I'd skip over things or just not notice them or something.

Also - imagining a tune while your doing it helps turn off the "voices" I don't use songs tho, cos the words can throw me.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I often employ something I call "icons" (there's prolly a better word for it - I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's thought of it) as a shothand to internal dialogues. Quite often I can cover whole conversations by flicking through a bunch of these. I've tried to describe them to people plenty times but it never really comes out right. For a kick off "icons" prolly isn't the best description. It's not like I imagine a little picture, more like I immerse my self in a real or imagined state of being appropriate to whatever situation an internal monologue would be employed to deal with or work out.

For instance - my thinking is heading in a depression kinda direction. The clue is in that my monologue usually becomes sorta negative reinforcing also really circular. As soon as I cotton on to this (doesn't usually take long) I place myself in a kinda desert, in black and white with a weird sort of buzzing, roiling black cloud unseen but clearly experienced, kinda above and behind me. At this point the solution to the situation will be straight in front of me. Saves on ages of imagined conversations and shit.

Like I said - it's really fucking hard to explain, I'm putting this out there just in case someone else does this and can put it into better words than me.

I don't really visualise anything, but certain avenues of thought/concepts definitely have a sort of "mental shape" to them.  It sounds like they work in a similar way to your "icons", in that I can piece them together in any order, or apply them individually to situations.  I think "icons" is quite an apt name really, in that you click an icon on a computer to load a particular program, and similarly this is something in your brain which you "load" to get to where you want to be.  Unless we're talking about completely different things?

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. I think I know what you mean about "mental shape" too. Like moods for me have what could prolly be best described as "shapes" like if your mind was playdough you'd just mould it into that shape and then you'd be feeling that way

[Doktor Howl]

My thoughts get really loud, sometimes.

[P3nT4gR4m]

My thoughts get really loud, sometimes.

That's because you yell them at people. Nothing to be alarmed about.

[Captain Utopia]

When I'm packing stuff for a trip I have a cupboard with all my camping and wilderness gear in it. When I look at the objects in the cupboard they get superimposed with either red or green colour, depending on whether I need them or not for this particular expedition. It sounds like I'm putting in less thought and, tbh it feels that way in practice but believe me I make a lot less mistakes in terms of taking shit I don't need or forgetting stuff I do than back when I was reliant on mental chit chat to make the decisions. I think when I did stuff-selection the old way my attention was much more likely to wander off on tangents and shit then I'd skip over things or just not notice them or something.

That sounds fucking awesome.

I wonder if part of the reason why I don't visualise stuff is because I've always been terrified of losing my mind?  I exhibit a really strong grip on reality as I expect it to be.  Which helps make me a pain in the ass in discussions, until I reach the point where I can safely change my expectations.  For example, the first time I smoked pot I went through five healthy bowls by myself before I started feeling anything, and then my expectations of reality shifted quite considerably, but that's another story 

that's very interesting... could you elaborate more on it? I'm intrigued by the idea of teaching yourself mental shorthand and non-verbal reasoning.

Try the "lalala" approach, just repeat it to yourself (as a loud thought) while doing stuff you've already done a thousand times before - like getting a cup of coffee, or think of a random friend and decide what they'd like for their next birthday.  Then try doing it without "lalala".  If there's anything to the "mental shape" idea, you'll start recognising that the shapes are the same for particular concepts or people when you are using words, as they are when you are not.  You'll then start noticing that there are a lot of times you do think without words already, the only difference is that the default seems to be for words to spawn other words and so unless you add awareness to the times that you are wordless, it can be a bitch to get back to that state/shape.

My theory is that the vocal part of the brain triggers on the shapes, and new shapes trigger from the shapes created by the words.. and if you don't hold the reins of that part of the brain, then it'll just continue triggering on the input it receives.

It was about 10-15 years ago that I tried this.. I remember realising that I was really slow at working through a problem because not only would I put it in words, but I'd editing/fixing grammar, thinking them slowly, massaging the rhythm - before I'd even reach a conclusion.  The other thing is, while it's not as hard to do as it sounds, I find that it's hard to do continuously.. I don't practice as much as I used to, so now I just do it in concentrated bursts rather than prolonged stretches.

[Cramulus]

I've been realizing that when I'm designing a game or writing a script for a LARP, the concepts have a sort of visual geometry to them. I end up visualizing the relationships between various people and objects and plotlines almost like a flow chart. There's no way I could draw it, it only really makes sense in my head. But if I could, it would look like a bunch of shapes and arrows and loops and stuff.

[Jasper]

Just to remark on the OP, yeah.  I'm getting pretty good at it, and sometimes I wonder if I could induce a psychotic break if I did it too hard.

[Captain Utopia]

Does screaming produce a physiological response?  Is a portion of that response replicated when you scream in your head?

I dunno, but that's pretty much why I didn't push the volume experiment too far.  Although I have started trying to think in words at a higher volume, and I noticed that I have started speaking louder too, so that's pretty neat.

I've been realizing that when I'm designing a game or writing a script for a LARP, the concepts have a sort of visual geometry to them. I end up visualizing the relationships between various people and objects and plotlines almost like a flow chart. There's no way I could draw it, it only really makes sense in my head. But if I could, it would look like a bunch of shapes and arrows and loops and stuff.

I wonder if there's a useful vocabulary for this sort of thing?  I'm reminded of mnemonic techniques and rituals which to some extent may exercise the brain in a certain way, but those terms seem to be geared towards a particular goal, rather than a generic language.  I dunno, I just find it really interesting that we're talking about fairly low-level brain stuff, and we seem to be understanding each other.  It seems silly to want words for the processes of thinking without words, but I think it may be possible that those specialised terms may in-of-themselves help unlock lower functions?  As in - words aren't useless, but too many of them can get in the way?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Just to remark on the OP, yeah.  I'm getting pretty good at it, and sometimes I wonder if I could induce a psychotic break if I did it too hard.

There's only one way to find out. Strongly suggest you don't.

... just in case 

[Telarus]

I agree.

Also:

The triangle is the simplest stable (physical _and_ mental) structure. Basic arithmetic involves triangulation (2 + 3 = 5, two terms on one side of the equation, one on the other).

[Jasper]

Just to remark on the OP, yeah.  I'm getting pretty good at it, and sometimes I wonder if I could induce a psychotic break if I did it too hard.

There's only one way to find out. Strongly suggest you don't.

... just in case 

Psychology is rife with forbidden experiments.

[Brotep]

I don't remember if this claim is in Musicophilia, This Is Your Brain On Music, or both, but...

Imagining or remembering a song (or other auditory stimuli) activates the same parts of the brain as hearing it.

[Golden Applesauce]

I can imagine smells as easy as I can imagine sounds and pictures. I believe there's a mixture of people who find one or more of the senses to be easier or harder to imagine. And I'm pretty sure I could imagine a smell that might not make me sick (very few IRL smells do that to me either) but I would get nauseus.

I remember hearing about this in a cognitive psych class - somebody actually went to the trouble of researching this.  The vast majority (80%+) can imagine an image to near or equal quality as if they were actually seeing it, a smaller majority (I think it was ~60%) can imagine sounds as if they were actually hearing it, and only minorities of people could do the same for touch, taste, and smell.  Don't remember the numbers, but smell was the worst.

I've been realizing that when I'm designing a game or writing a script for a LARP, the concepts have a sort of visual geometry to them. I end up visualizing the relationships between various people and objects and plotlines almost like a flow chart. There's no way I could draw it, it only really makes sense in my head. But if I could, it would look like a bunch of shapes and arrows and loops and stuff.

I know when I brainstorm things, often I'll have an idea or insight and I know what it is, and maybe the concept will be associated with a shape or a scene, but it's like my brain doesn't think it counts unless I subvocalize it.  So then I have to think my own idea to myself, and word it properly, and spend a bit of time making sure I use the proper level of formality, and make sure I know in which sense I mean all the words - all to make sure that the sentences I think to myself to describe my idea as closely match the original idea as possible.  Sometimes it goes to the level of imagining that I had to explain it to a critical audience - like if I was running for office or something - and had to word it all so that nobody could draw the wrong conclusions from it.  That would be fine if I were trying to write a speech or something, but it's usually something like "fire element specialists should be second best at flying, with effects like rocketry."  (I had to consciously prevent myself from rewriting that into something neater.  The original idea-shape was just a guy taking off with jets of fire coming out of his feet (like Astro-boy, but more so) and the notion of long straight lines [since they wouldn't turn very well.])