Discourse 24: Monsters

[Guido Finucci]

1.  That's not murder.  That's manslaughter.  BIG moral difference.

2.  PIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNG!  Gotcha!

3.  Yes.  Ants aren't people.  They have  brain about as complex as an electrical relay.

1. How is that not murder? Let's say they are pleading with you to not kill them - does that help?

2. Thhhbbbbbt!

3.  Okay, what about the other one: if I kill one person, am I more moral than the killer who killed two?

[Out of the Wasteland]

1.  That's not murder.  That's manslaughter.  BIG moral difference.

2.  PIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNG!  Gotcha!

3.  Yes.  Ants aren't people.  They have  brain about as complex as an electrical relay.

1. How is that not murder? Let's say they are pleading with you to not kill them - does that help?

2. Thhhbbbbbt!

3.  Okay, what about the other one: if I kill one person, am I more moral than the killer who killed two?

1.  Murder involves direct intent or motive to do harm to the person.  Manslaughter means that you know it's wrong, and intend no harm, but you do not feel you can avoid the situation.

2.  That's the weirdest death rattle I've ever heard.  Bill the Cat?  Is that YOU?

3.  Depends?  What's the backstory?

[Trollax]

1.  Good.  I fell no need for a flamewar.  Not HERE, anyway.

2.  Why woul it be interesting to try?  Other than out of sheer morbidity?  Enlighten me on this one, because I am truly clueless as to your posible motivation.  FACT:  There are monsters in this world, and they need to be opposed.

3.  Not good enough.

1.) nice to hear.

2.) When I bopped that kid on the nose, I was the loner, the person in school everybody hated (not hard with only 68 students.). After that I became the violent kid, am I? Letters were sent home, I was to see the school counsellor once a week. They said I had ADD.
I knew in my bones I was angry because nobody was giving me a chance. I thought at that time I deserved one. I don't think that the universe is fair anymore, but I still believe I deserve a chance, you know? I think about all the people that gave me a hard time, and what I learned about them along the way. It doesn't justify the way I was treated by them, but it does explain it. And no it isn't as big as 6,000,000 people dead, but maybe there is a point in the lietime of every killer where they cross the line. I'm talking about preventing that.
I know people who have become killers, junkies, people who have died before they are two decades old. It makes me shiver to think that I was around them, near them, when those changes were happening and that I never really new. I saw a scared 12-year old kid become a violent, combative thug, who used to steal cars and drive interstate before being picked up and taken home by the police. I was exactly the same at 12 years old, same problems at home, same social situation too. He's the only person I'd say I'd gladly kill without a second thought, I probably would, and I'm not proud of that. Yet here I am. Was it evil that made the difference? People aren't born evil. Although people with brain defects make an interesting case for semantics don't they?
I agree with you, there needs to be an opposition to the nutcases of the world.

3.) What is the correct penance?

4.) Buddha was once pursued by a man who believed he needed the ears of 1,000 travelers to attain salvation. He had 999 when he came across Shakyamuni. Legend says, as hard as he ran he could not catch him. When he gave up, frustrated, buddha came to him. He was enlightened.
Were his crimes absolved? Can anything overtake the bad things we do? Or are we really doomed to be forever rewarded or eternally punished? If that is the way of the world then send me down with all the other malcontents. They might need consoling after all that eternity.

[Trollax]

I used to be a moral objectivist. I believed so strongly in my own standards I was prone to breaking them when I believed that other people were in the wrong. Not saying that is going on here, but at one point I got to thinking that unless I could accept the possibility I was in error, then I would most likely keep breaking my own standards because I would get all heated up and myopic.

Here's an E-mail joke that was going around and around...

You're down in florida, on vacation. A Hurricane has just rolled in. It's category four. The storm surge is a good three meters high and the winds are over 100 knots. You're on your hotel balcony looking down at the flooded street. You hear a cry for help. There's a man floating down the flooded street towards the see. The swirling current turns his face towareds you and you recognise him. It's George W. Bush! You have a choice to make. Do you use the camera in your hand and snap the last possible photo of his life, floating away into the sea? Or do you tie the length of rope in your room to the balcony rail and try to throw it to him as he passes within five feet of your current position? Time is running out. do you win the pulitzer prize or save the most dangerous president in US history?
So... do you use black and white, or colour film?

Funny, yes. But deadly serioius for a moment. Do you save him?

LOL.  Actually, I throw him an anvil.

That's where we differ. I hate the asshole, and I would tell him so after fishing him out. But I wouldn't watch him die.

[Guido Finucci]

1.  Murder involves direct intent or motive to do harm to the person.  Manslaughter means that you know it's wrong, and intend no harm, but you do not feel you can avoid the situation.

2.  That's the weirdest death rattle I've ever heard.  Bill the Cat?  Is that YOU?

3.  Depends?  What's the backstory?

1. Okay - if the Auschwitz guards knew what they were doing was wrong but didn't feel that they could avoid the situation, does that make what they did morally justifyable as manslaughter? Or why not?

2. Not cats here. Noone but us chickens.

3. No backstory - pure numbers game.

[Out of the Wasteland]

2.) When I bopped that kid on the nose, I was the loner, the person in school everybody hated (not hard with only 68 students.). After that I became the violent kid, am I? Letters were sent home, I was to see the school counsellor once a week. They said I had ADD.
I knew in my bones I was angry because nobody was giving me a chance.
3.) What is the correct penance?

2.  That does not qualify you for monster-dom.  There is a VAST difference between bopping someone on the nose and massacring people.

3.  The destruction of the monster in question.

[Trollax]

Depends?  What's the backstory?

And you said you weren't a relaivist!  

[Out of the Wasteland]

I used to be a moral objectivist. I believed so strongly in my own standards I was prone to breaking them when I believed that other people were in the wrong. Not saying that is going on here, but at one point I got to thinking that unless I could accept the possibility I was in error, then I would most likely keep breaking my own standards because I would get all heated up and myopic.

Here's an E-mail joke that was going around and around...

You're down in florida, on vacation. A Hurricane has just rolled in. It's category four. The storm surge is a good three meters high and the winds are over 100 knots. You're on your hotel balcony looking down at the flooded street. You hear a cry for help. There's a man floating down the flooded street towards the see. The swirling current turns his face towareds you and you recognise him. It's George W. Bush! You have a choice to make. Do you use the camera in your hand and snap the last possible photo of his life, floating away into the sea? Or do you tie the length of rope in your room to the balcony rail and try to throw it to him as he passes within five feet of your current position? Time is running out. do you win the pulitzer prize or save the most dangerous president in US history?
So... do you use black and white, or colour film?

Funny, yes. But deadly serioius for a moment. Do you save him?

LOL.  Actually, I throw him an anvil.

That's where we differ. I hate the asshole, and I would tell him so after fishing him out. But I wouldn't watch him die.

Neither would I.  If he grabbed the anvil (an he's dumb enough to do so), there wouldn't be much to watch.

The man invades nations to further enrich the rich.  Watch me not care.

[Trollax]

2.  That does not qualify you for monster-dom.  There is a VAST difference between bopping someone on the nose and massacring people.

The Bamboo is not an Oak.

[Out of the Wasteland]

Depends?  What's the backstory?

And you said you weren't a relaivist!  

True, but I clarified that later, by stating that, beyobnd a certain point, there are absolutes.  I DID make a point out of denying Ayn Rand's brand of moral absolutism, which is what I believe you are accusing me of.

[Out of the Wasteland]

2.  That does not qualify you for monster-dom.  There is a VAST difference between bopping someone on the nose and massacring people.

The Bamboo is not an Oak.

Yep.  In this case, though, a better wat to say hat would be a single-celled plant life is not a redwood.

[Trollax]

Neither would I.  If he grabbed the anvil (an he's dumb enough to do so), there wouldn't be much to watch.

The man invades nations to further enrich the rich.  Watch me not care.

OK let's reverse the situation. There's the world's most rabid fundamentalist, and it's you floating away in a storm surge...


"The man encourages people to doubt the existence of god and promotes heathensim.

Watch me not care."

Is that fair?

[Trollax]

Depends?  What's the backstory?

And you said you weren't a relaivist!  

True, but I clarified that later, by stating that, beyobnd a certain point, there are absolutes.  I DID make a point out of denying Ayn Rand's brand of moral absolutism, which is what I believe you are accusing me of.

Actually I was accusing you of being a relativist.

[Out of the Wasteland]

1.  Murder involves direct intent or motive to do harm to the person.  Manslaughter means that you know it's wrong, and intend no harm, but you do not feel you can avoid the situation.

2.  That's the weirdest death rattle I've ever heard.  Bill the Cat?  Is that YOU?

3.  Depends?  What's the backstory?

1. Okay - if the Auschwitz guards knew what they were doing was wrong but didn't feel that they could avoid the situation, does that make what they did morally justifyable as manslaughter? Or why not?

2. Not cats here. Noone but us chickens.

3. No backstory - pure numbers game.

1.  Of course he could.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  Or are you suggesting that the massacres in the deathcamps saved people?

3.  Not enough data.

[Out of the Wasteland]

Neither would I.  If he grabbed the anvil (an he's dumb enough to do so), there wouldn't be much to watch.

The man invades nations to further enrich the rich.  Watch me not care.

OK let's reverse the situation. There's the world's most rabid fundamentalist, and it's you floating away in a storm surge...


"The man encourages people to doubt the existence of god and promotes heathensim.

Watch me not care."

Is that fair?

This is EXACTLY why I don't live on the coast.  Well, this and Cthulu.