So you want a Revolution...

[Manta Obscura]

Excellent summation of the human condition, Rat. I like the idea of the problem of capitalization; people have started wars and driven themselves crazy over those little bastard capitals.

I did have one question concerning your post, however. Regarding your term, "True Enlightenment": what exactly do you mean by that? I take it that you mean, as you imply in your message, freedom from all mental constraints/ways of programming ourselves, but I was wondering what this entailed. Hypothetically, if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like? Do you think that the freedom from constraints, for instance, entails freedom from all negative emotions, or freedom from all interior intellection/inner monologue?

Sorry for the pinprick-specificity of all my queries; just trying to get a better grasp of what you're saying.

I ask because, personally, I once believed in the idea of True Enlightenment. Not sure that I do now (conversely, I'm not sure I DON'T, either), but once . . . yeah. Anyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable. Silly notions of childhood, eh?

Foolish childhood dreams aside, it now seems to me that there is no way to transcend/completely eliminate the emotive responses that make us react to and against the situations in our lives. However, a small part of me still thinks that it is possible to train the inner intellection to a point where it is still, and where one doesn't constantly have to have a ceaseless cesspool of thoughts swirling about inside.

I don't know, though; I'm starting to sound pretty foolish to myself. Give me your thoughts on the matter, whether you think we can be free from our own intellection/emotive reflexes.

Oh, and one last note: this part was great. Very poetic:

I think the flaw lies in capitalization:

True Enlgihtenment, I think is bullshit. The idea that we can transcend all constraints is foolish IMO. I think that there will always be constraints...


but I don't think that all constraints are necessarily prisons.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Excellent summation of the human condition, Rat. I like the idea of the problem of capitalization; people have started wars and driven themselves crazy over those little bastard capitals.

I did have one question concerning your post, however. Regarding your term, "True Enlightenment": what exactly do you mean by that? I take it that you mean, as you imply in your message, freedom from all mental constraints/ways of programming ourselves, but I was wondering what this entailed. Hypothetically, if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like? Do you think that the freedom from constraints, for instance, entails freedom from all negative emotions, or freedom from all interior intellection/inner monologue?

Sorry for the pinprick-specificity of all my queries; just trying to get a better grasp of what you're saying.

I ask because, personally, I once believed in the idea of True Enlightenment. Not sure that I do now (conversely, I'm not sure I DON'T, either), but once . . . yeah. Anyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable. Silly notions of childhood, eh?

Foolish childhood dreams aside, it now seems to me that there is no way to transcend/completely eliminate the emotive responses that make us react to and against the situations in our lives. However, a small part of me still thinks that it is possible to train the inner intellection to a point where it is still, and where one doesn't constantly have to have a ceaseless cesspool of thoughts swirling about inside.

I don't know, though; I'm starting to sound pretty foolish to myself. Give me your thoughts on the matter, whether you think we can be free from our own intellection/emotive reflexes.

Oh, and one last note: this part was great. Very poetic:

I think the flaw lies in capitalization:

True Enlgihtenment, I think is bullshit. The idea that we can transcend all constraints is foolish IMO. I think that there will always be constraints...


but I don't think that all constraints are necessarily prisons.

Well, 'True Enlightenment' is the stuff they sell on television and your local Guru cult. 

Anyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable.

Well, I think that sort of think is possible... but I don't think its enlightenment. To me it seems like a more restrictive set of programming controls. What Light does it shed upon life? Life, in almost every expression we can perceive of it, appears as an active and volatile thing.  When life becomes still, untouchable, immutable... we call it stagnant and comment on the stink of its decay.

Yet, some belief systems would tell you that this is the height of Existence in this life.

I don't think enlightenment is found in thinking less, or in controlling thoughts. I think it lies, if anywhere, in understanding your own hardware and software (to use a metaphor) and being able to examine and modify it if necessary.

So for me, enlightenment is figuring out that you are in the Black Iron Prison, until you choose to be in the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine, or Shiny Steel Spaceship... they all keep you from directly experiencing the environment... they all control what you're exposed to... they all make you remain within the confines set up... but a Prison sits in one place forever, even if you redecorate and move the window around a bit, you're still sitting at GitMo or Alcatraz. However, if you're in a submarine or a spaceship or Humvee... you may be 'trapped', but at least you're trapped and looking at new stuff or exploring different things.

if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like?

What would a person look like if they jumped out of my hypothetical spaceship or submarine without any constraints in place?

Probably something like that.

[Manta Obscura]

So for me, enlightenment is figuring out that you are in the Black Iron Prison, until you choose to be in the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine, or Shiny Steel Spaceship... they all keep you from directly experiencing the environment... they all control what you're exposed to... they all make you remain within the confines set up... but a Prison sits in one place forever, even if you redecorate and move the window around a bit, you're still sitting at GitMo or Alcatraz. However, if you're in a submarine or a spaceship or Humvee... you may be 'trapped', but at least you're trapped and looking at new stuff or exploring different things.

if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like?

What would a person look like if they jumped out of my hypothetical spaceship or submarine without any constraints in place?

Probably something like that.

The first statement concerning the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine is very alluring to me. However, I have the unfortunate habit of getting wrapped up in metaphors and forgetting to apply them to real life, so I'll leave it for now.

Concerning your idea of "modifying one's hardware": we all know that Discordianism (like many other systems/tools) gives methods for doing so (e.g. humor, mind-fucking, rearranging our own internalized labels, etc.). Hell, EVERY system/tool does so (e.g. prayer and litany in Christianity, meditation in Buddhism, mantras in certain sects of Hinduism, logical hypotheses in atheism, etc.). What I want to know (and what I failed to make clear in my original response to you) is this, however:

How do you think one may determine when is the "correct moment" to alter the software/hardware of one's BIP/worldview/whatever?

When I originally referenced the idea of the cessation of intellection and the "invulnerability of the mind," I was referencing the former in terms of being a tool that one could use to change one's outlook on the world. The latter was my hypothesis about what an individual would be like if they perfected the art of reprogramming themselves, not only by the technique most suited for them, but also by the recognition of the most apt time in which to do it.

It seems to me that, yes, changing one's environment through memebombs/whatever is important, and that altering one's own interior through self-mind-fucking is also important. However, to say that one should ALWAYS try to alter/change their interior, and that they must NEVER go along with the crowd (note: I am not saying that you have implied this in any way; I am merely referencing one of my own concerns) seems, to me, to be equally erroneous logic. Just as some people are "trapped" in their own self-made BIP, it seems equally likely that there may be some danger of "over-decorating" one's own BIP, as it were. Sort of like how people who are "too nice" can become doormats, or people who are "too honest" might be honest to the point of abrasion. Do you think that there are times when one should just sit back and be an observer/follower, or do you think that every social and individual instance is best utilized by bringing external and internal Mindfucks to the situation?

This is where, I suppose, my idea of the technique of inner quiet comes in, as well as my concept of the "invulnerable" person. If, in my previous question, the former is true, then one might say that there are times that one might believe that the world should be left to "run as it pleases," whereas the latter implies the necessity of dynamic participation from the observer in all situations. Sort of a parallel to the old koans and riddles of whether we may be removed from the turmoil of the storm, or whether the storm is inescapable, and only the eye offers solace.

I tend to suffer from the delusion of the former, that the turmoil can be escaped, if only momentarily, by the relinquishing of active control and "going with the flow," so to speak, whereas the concept of BIP and other Discordian thought-structures picture the whole "escape from turmoil" in terms of the inescapable storm, where one may only find the eye.

Well, those are my random, probably incorrect and malformed, thoughts at the moment. As I said, I definitely see the concept and merit of what you speak of as the inability to fully escape the BIP/YFB, but I would be pleased to hear your thoughts as to whether momentary escape is ever fully possible.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

[Manta Obscura]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

I hope this is kopyleft, Rat, because if not I probably owe you royalties for printing this out and pasting it on my wall. Not that I would ever give them to you, but I would owe you them.

Not being tech savvy, I had never really thought of mindset alteration in terms of program hacking. Being an impractical English/Comm guy, I had always considered the ideas of alteration in terms of emotive channeling and inter/intra-personal communication. I really like the metaphors that you use, and hope to hear more of your thoughts during my time here.

Thanks for giving me something new to think over.

Well, not to be an impotent prick, but my curiosity is currently sated, and thus I can't think of anything to say in response to your intelligent post. And since I try to adhere (loosely) to the idea of "If you can't improve the silence, then don't attempt to make noise," I'll shut up for now.

Thanks again for your insight.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

I hope this is kopyleft, Rat, because if not I probably owe you royalties for printing this out and pasting it on my wall. Not that I would ever give them to you, but I would owe you them.

Not being tech savvy, I had never really thought of mindset alteration in terms of program hacking. Being an impractical English/Comm guy, I had always considered the ideas of alteration in terms of emotive channeling and inter/intra-personal communication. I really like the metaphors that you use, and hope to hear more of your thoughts during my time here.

Thanks for giving me something new to think over.

Well, not to be an impotent prick, but my curiosity is currently sated, and thus I can't think of anything to say in response to your intelligent post. And since I try to adhere (loosely) to the idea of "If you can't improve the silence, then don't attempt to make noise," I'll shut up for now.

Thanks again for your insight.

Any random chattering that Ratatosk spouts is Kopyleft and also... nutty.

[Triple Zero]

1. Isn't there an episode of Bullshit! on that topic somehwre...?

if there is, can i has link?

[Kai]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

Wow, you hacked your monogamy? Thats impressive.

[hooplala]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

Isn't it just the opposite now, though?  You changed, and she stayed the same.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).

However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.

I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.

Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.

I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started  hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.

Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. 

Isn't it just the opposite now, though?  You changed, and she stayed the same.

I dunno, I'm not her

Most of her friends claim her views have changed entirely though. In the end, I don't mind if she changed or not. I looked at my program and decided that it was not something I wanted in my head.  In her defense, we were together for two years and she never once asked or bugged me about it. I think she was genuinely surprised when I brought the subject up.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

When my husband and I decided to open our relationship, something he had wanted all along, a friend of mine was mad at me for letting him "win". I was surprised, and it actually put a real damper on our friendship, because it seemed like she was framing relationships in terms of competition rather than cooperation.

My marriage didn't work out, but I don't think I would go back to monogamy. I was never very good at it in the first place, and I like that there's now no penalty for my wandering eye.

I also like the increased level of honesty I've found in polyamorous relationships... it's certainly not true of everyone, but it does seem like most of the people I meet who are polyamorous have really worked at keeping the level of candidness and communication very high.

Anyway, I think that if you view life as something to be adapted to rather than struggled against, it's easier to stay flexible and change your brain's programming when it becomes appropriate.

[Adios]

When my husband and I decided to open our relationship, something he had wanted all along, a friend of mine was mad at me for letting him "win". I was surprised, and it actually put a real damper on our friendship, because it seemed like she was framing relationships in terms of competition rather than cooperation.

My marriage didn't work out, but I don't think I would go back to monogamy. I was never very good at it in the first place, and I like that there's now no penalty for my wandering eye.

I also like the increased level of honesty I've found in polyamorous relationships... it's certainly not true of everyone, but it does seem like most of the people I meet who are polyamorous have really worked at keeping the level of candidness and communication very high.

Anyway, I think that if you view life as something to be adapted to rather than struggled against, it's easier to stay flexible and change your brain's programming when it becomes appropriate.

I guess I'm old fashioned. Mrs. Asshat and I both just enjoy our sex and each others company.

Well, back when we had sex. Before her hysteroctomy (sp) and my loss of ability.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Old-fashioned, or it's just what you like. I wouldn't necessarily advocate polyamory, but it seems to be a better choice for me at this time in my life.

[Adios]

Old-fashioned, or it's just what you like. I wouldn't necessarily advocate polyamory, but it seems to be a better choice for me at this time in my life.

And so each must live for themselves. I love that part.