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Jazz: srs fucking business

Started by Cain, December 10, 2009, 08:47:35 PM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I'm going to go copy & paste the OP on TCC.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


LMNO

Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.

The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.

If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies.  But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.

Or, take for example The Shaggs.  I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.

You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.

It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal.  Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times.  I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.


In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.

Kai

Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.

I was gonna say, this thread is a mixture of arguments between e-prime and r-prime, and I've been laughing the whole way.

The truth is, I really enjoy Bukka White, Lead Belly, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Django Reinhardt, and yes, I do listen to John McLaughlin, not his electric guitar stuff, but the acoustic stuff he did with Al Di Meola and Paco De Lucia. The correct r-prime is, I like this shit, I don't have to explain why to any person anymore than you have to explain why you like sticking cucumbers up your ass. It's my preference, I like it, and if you don't you can fuck off and listen to whatever purist drivel you masturbate to. Fuckers.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

LMNO

Bukka White and Leadbelly are jazz?


Incidentally, both are fantastic musicians.

Kai

Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:37:26 PM
Bukka White and Leadbelly are jazz?


Incidentally, both are fantastic musicians.

Sorta the precursors to jazz as my jazz history professor described it. But jazz is an arbitrary designation so the fuck if it matters. Some people happened to make some music I like, and I listen to it, and the fuck if I care what anyone thinks about it. Hell, I listen to Kenny G and like it. I may be tasteless in others eyes but my listening habits don't require you to listen to the same.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.

The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.

If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies.  But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.

Or, take for example The Shaggs.  I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.

You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.

It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal.  Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times.  I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.


In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.

100% troof!

Lets face it Jazz is no different from any and all other genres of music - one or two fucking amazing, genre defining acts, hundreds of okay followers and millions of really shitty bandwagon jumpers. Like all other genres it ends up dominated by the shitty contingent and, ultimately, this puts people off it.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

ThisIsMyName.StopAsking

Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.

The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.

If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies.  But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.

Or, take for example The Shaggs.  I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.

You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.

It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal.  Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times.  I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.


In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.

I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people.  I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz.  I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people.  I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz.  I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.

It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

LMNO

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 14, 2009, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people.  I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz.  I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.

It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:

This.  Welcome to PD.com, where we poke because the sticks are, like, just laying there.

:pokewithstick:

P3nT4gR4m


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

ThisIsMyName.StopAsking

Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 10:37:05 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 14, 2009, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people.  I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz.  I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.

It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:

This.  Welcome to PD.com, where we poke because the sticks are, like, just laying there.

:pokewithstick:

I feel at home here now.  :horrormirth:

Brotep

Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.

I hate you sometimes  :lulz:

hooplala

Lead Belly is a lot of things, but he sure as shit ain't jazz.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Kai

Quote from: Hoopla on December 14, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
Lead Belly is a lot of things, but he sure as shit ain't jazz.

Blues then. You fuckers and your fucking labels.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Epimetheus

Ah, I missed the discussion. Well, I don't favor jazz over any other music, I don't favor any genres (for the most part). As I see it, all music just follows gradual trends. Jazz is no exception. It's part of a trend and constitutes a trend itself. I like a lot of it, don't like a lot of it. Meh.  :kingmeh:
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