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The worst thread

Started by Lies, April 21, 2009, 11:12:41 AM

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Lies

Ok, so Rumkle pointed out that there is a store here in Melbourne that will print magazines for free if they like them, and then sell them and split the profits with the people behind the magazine...
So I was wondering what intermittens crew think.
Would it be a good idea if I can see if this guy will print our magazine and sell them here in aus for profit, with half those profits going back into pd.com?
Or would it be against all that's good and holy to sell kopyleft work?

- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Rumckle

I also would like to point out that the price they sell most of their magazines at is $5 or less (Australian), not sure how they work that stuff out though.
It's not trolling, it's just satire.

Cramulus

over here in the states I had planned to use this guy Danny Chaoflux's small distribution press in Oregon (once he gets it set up). http://r6xx.com/

Failing that, all our scribus templates are formatted for magcloud.com - a print-on-demand magazine printer. They're expensive though - $0.20 per page. Can you get a per-page rate, inc. shipping?

The idea being that the editor can sell issues if he or she would like to. For my IM#1, I was gonna split my profits with Telarus (who put many hours into layout).


lol profits



Lies

Quote from: Cramulus on April 21, 2009, 01:16:20 PM
over here in the states I had planned to use this guy Danny Chaoflux's small distribution press in Oregon (once he gets it set up). http://r6xx.com/

Failing that, all our scribus templates are formatted for magcloud.com - a print-on-demand magazine printer. They're expensive though - $0.20 per page. Can you get a per-page rate, inc. shipping?

The idea being that the editor can sell issues if he or she would like to. For my IM#1, I was gonna split my profits with Telarus (who put many hours into layout).


lol profits



Err... the guy prints it for free apparently, and sells them themselves and splits half the profits with well, whoever I suppose I tell them to give it to, though I imagine it might have to be me.
But in any case, like I said, my idea is if this thing makes money at all, to put it back into pd.com, I think that would be the fairest thing now wouldn't you agree?
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Lies

Quote from: Cramulus on April 21, 2009, 01:16:20 PM
over here in the states I had planned to use this guy Danny Chaoflux's small distribution press in Oregon (once he gets it set up). http://r6xx.com/

Failing that, all our scribus templates are formatted for magcloud.com - a print-on-demand magazine printer. They're expensive though - $0.20 per page. Can you get a per-page rate, inc. shipping?

The idea being that the editor can sell issues if he or she would like to. For my IM#1, I was gonna split my profits with Telarus (who put many hours into layout).


lol profits



Actually though, I will ask and see what kind of deals can be made for this...
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Cramulus

Quote from: Lysergic on April 21, 2009, 01:24:32 PM
But in any case, like I said, my idea is if this thing makes money at all, to put it back into pd.com, I think that would be the fairest thing now wouldn't you agree?

I think it should be up to the editor what they do with their issues and any revenue potentially generated from them.

Telarus and I put a lot of time into Issue 1, and I know I've invested at least 20 hours (so far) into my Lesser Poop issue. Personally, I'd like to be the first one to profit off my labor.  :p

Lies

Hmmm... I don't agree or disagree with what your saying Cram, but I kinda see things getting sticky here with this idea already...
I mean, yes, its probably fair for editors and such to make a cut, but what about people who also submitted and provided articles for the issues?
Shouldn't they get their slice too?

My proposal means that money made goes back into PD where everyone here will benefit from intermittens profits, and we don't have to worry about who is owed what for what issue...

It seems to split things on a per issue/editor idea will make things rather tricky, because it requires keeping track of what issue is sold and such, something I really can't be bothered with.

I'd like to see mass producing of intermittens that can be easily distributed without having to worry about our personal cost and charged at a small fee that goes back into making better intermittens and supporting the discordian community.

But yeah, I do understand where you are coming from Cram, you put a lot of work into making these for very little monetary reward, and as producers of work you should get a slice...
But yeah, this is all going to get complicated fast if people are going to be asking for their slice of the pie as exactly as they should be getting from it according to the way you propose splitting the profits...

But yeah, I'll see what deals I can find to see if intermittens can be produced on the cheap and for mass marketing for personal sales... 
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Cain

What?

You decided you were going to use my work to make money without me getting a cut?  This is fucking bullshit.  I worked on the presumption that Intermittens is free and that no-one profits from it, and that if any profits were made, they would go into improved distribution or site maintenence only.

Its bad enough I don't even have a job, but now to have my work used to make money for others without my say so?  Absolute fucking crap.  If this is the way Intermittens is going, then my work is no longer going to be featured.  At all.

Cramulus

Deep breath. I don't appreciate being yelled at while we try to discuss a problem/solution.


I hear what you're saying. Sooner or later we were going to have to have a conversation about dolla dolla bills y'all. I also hope that we can all reach an accord without there being too much tension - recently the entire irreality.net community disintegrated (in part) because of community money issues.

The first thing to put on the table is that no issue of Intermittens is going to make a ton of cash. Straight up. If I print out some copies and happen to sell them while I'm at a book fair or something, I don't expect to ever make more than twenty bucks. Because the PDFs are free, there's little reason to buy a physical copy. If you like nice glossy magazine pages, or you're an organization, it makes a little bit of sense. But this isn't set up to be profitable because we're also giving them away for free. So I don't want us to get too hung up on where the millions of dollars will go, because in all likelihood the total revenue of all Intermittens for all time will be under fifty bucks. If one issue makes a lot of cash, it will be because somebody is marketing it really hard.

I also want to point out - and we've discussed this before - that Intermittens is not exclusively PD property. There are at least two issues (that I know of) being developed by people that don't frequently post here.

Quote from: Lysergic on April 21, 2009, 03:37:18 PM
Hmmm... I don't agree or disagree with what your saying Cram, but I kinda see things getting sticky here with this idea already...
I mean, yes, its probably fair for editors and such to make a cut, but what about people who also submitted and provided articles for the issues?
Shouldn't they get their slice too?

In a magazine organized by to a commercial business model, yes, writers would definitely be paid. Intermittens is composed nearly entirely of public domain and creative-commons (or some form of copyleft) material. When an author submits something, they know that they lose a degree of control over that piece by releasing it. People in "the wild" can photocopy, modify, and redistribute Intermittens. This would be illegal if we were protecting our individual copyrights.

My personal philosophy on the matter (and I know not everybody shares this) is that if you can profit off a work I've marked Kopyleft, that's fine with me. Go ahead and sell my Intermittens at shows, use it to pay for beer. As long as you're not making a book of Cram's writings and selling it with your name on it, or making hundreds of dollars off my sweat, I'm not going to get bent out of shape. Just like how I can sell Lewis Carroll's work - it's in the unprotected public domain. A few authors don't like giving away those rights and have decided to not submit further stuff for Intermittens. (like Hoopla) That's a reasonable response - if you're not comfortable with releasing your work, don't submit it!

But that's not for everybody. And I know that there are exceptions where I'd be furious-pissed if people started selling my writing. Roger, for one, copyrights his work. I have a few of Roger's pieces in Intermittens #1, so I obtained permission to reprint (and sell) his work within the publication. He said he was okay with it as I don't chop it up and I credit him properly.


One of my central concerns is that this is not intended to be a for-profit magazine with a rigidly hierarchial editorial staff. I'm not the boss. Intermittens is for anyone to make. If we start imposing rules about who can profit and how we finance it, we need a layer of bureaucracy that's not currently present. I mean, if there's a bank account that's accepting the revenue from the magazine, whose name is on that bank account? Who gets to decide how the money is spent? Answering these questions will change the nature of the magazine. And I don't think that's necessary until the magazine proves to be profitable. No need to shoot each other dead for theft when no money has changed hands.

QuoteI'd like to see mass producing of intermittens

This requires funding first.

QuoteBut yeah, I do understand where you are coming from Cram, you put a lot of work into making these for very little monetary reward, and as producers of work you should get a slice...
But yeah, this is all going to get complicated fast if people are going to be asking for their slice of the pie as exactly as they should be getting from it according to the way you propose splitting the profits...

Agreed. Nobody wants to feel screwed. Nobody is trying to screw anybody else. Many of us are poor. Some of us are entrepeneurs. I don't have all the answers, but there's gotta be a way for us to reach good model. We're making this up as we go along.


Cain

Yeah, you're only trying to make money from my work while I'm ass-broke.  No big deal.  I should just calm down or something, right?

Fuck this and fuck you if that's the attitude you are going to take.  Remove all my work from copies of Intermittens.  None of my work has permission to be used for publication anymore, by anyone.  That goes for all previous issues too.  I am no longer associated with this project until I am assured that profits will not be going to any individual for my work.

Cramulus

Quote from: Cain on April 21, 2009, 04:32:02 PM
Yeah, you're only trying to make money from my work while I'm ass-broke.  No big deal.  I should just calm down or something, right?

Fuck this and fuck you if that's the attitude you are going to take.  Remove all my work from copies of Intermittens.  None of my work has permission to be used for publication anymore, by anyone.  That goes for all previous issues too.  I am no longer associated with this project until I am assured that profits will not be going to any individual for my work.

I was about to reply, but never mind. apparently, discussing this is too much of an emotional landmine.

if somebody else wants to try to figure this out, be my guest. But I'm not going to stick around and get shit on and cursed at for trying to facilitate discussion.

Cain

Oh fuck off.  You're talking about using my efforts and work to make money for yourself and I'm expected to - what?  Be all polite and shit? 

So go ahead and pat yourself on the back for being the "bigger man" and walking away or whatever.  Then you get get back to discussing - emotionlessly of course, god forbid someone get angry! - exactly how to use other peoples work to make money for the editors.

Richter

Intermittens, as a free thing of stuff we enjoy, put out so others can get into it too, is a good thing.  If ANY profit is possible for future bits, I think it's something that should get ironed out before they get released.  This is a good discussion to be had for the future, since good stuff is being produced.  At the same time, I've known a lot of you for a while, and I seriously doubt anyone here is about grabbing someone else's work for a quick buck.

For stuff slready out there, printed copies being sold at cost, or any profit going back to maintaining the PD like Cain mentioned, is the way to go IMHO.  Anything else is souring the creative engine that spawned it in the first place.

I have little of my own content in Intermittens projects, so disregard this if you feel that's grounds for such.       
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Cramulus

Quote from: Cain on April 21, 2009, 04:41:03 PM
Oh fuck off.  You're talking about using my efforts and work to make money for yourself and I'm expected to - what?  Be all polite and shit? 

If you want to actually discuss a mutually agreeable conclusion, yes.
If you'd prefer to demonize me for attempting to talk about cash, I'll just go back to swimming in the pool of money I've made by stealing everybody's ideas :lol:

(I hope that came across as a joke)


Lies



In the town where I was born,
Lived a man who sailed to sea,
And he told us of his life,
In the land of submarines,

So we sailed on to the sun,
Till we found the sea of green,
And we lived beneath the waves,
In our yellow submarine,

We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine,
We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine.

And our friends are all aboard,
Many more of them live next door,
And the band begins to play.

(Trumpets play)

We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine,
We all live a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine.

(Full speed ahead, Mr. Parker, full speed ahead!
Full speed over here, sir!
Action stations! Action stations!
Aye, aye, sir, fire!
Captain! Captain!)

As we live a life of ease
Every one of us has all we need,(has all we need)
Sky of blue, and sea of green,(sky of blue and sea of green)
in our yellow(in our yellow) submarine.(submarine) ( Hahaha! )

We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine,
We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine.

(fading)

We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine,
We all live in a yellow submarine,
yellow submarine, yellow submarine.


....


Sorry, call it inspired.
But seriously...
I'm almost sorry for bringing this up now...
But I suppose its good to get this discussed now before more shit hits the proverbial fan...
I'm only going to do what the majority thinks is right, as so far, I've really had nothing top do with intermittens besides wanting to get it spread down here and if a buck can be made will go back to whomever rightfully owns it.
I figured it would best be given to faust or such, since he pays for the board, I'm sure it won't go by unappreciated...
I can't imagine a hell of a lot of money being made from this, I figured since it was free to do it would be worth a gamble you know, since theres really nothing to lose on my part?
Whatever money is made would be worth like $23 us there I'd imagine and its hardly worth crying over...
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!