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While we're at it...

Started by LMNO, January 25, 2007, 01:32:32 PM

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AFK

But did Showgirls have the Wall of Death?  I think not!  :-D
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Jenne

Quote from: triple zero on January 26, 2007, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 25, 2007, 09:04:54 PMI've been chewing on this quote all day and it occurred to me that there's an awful lot of absurdity that's creeping into the mainstream. YTMND, for example. Or viral internet things ("All your base..."). Or the Chuck Norris phenomenon. Or so many crazy tv commercials.

maybe
Ten years from now a man will walk down the street in a gorilla suit, rubbing his crotch or something, and it'll blend in with the background, fading into the whirring machine hum. People will write it off 'cause rather than being shocked by random incomprehensible shit, they're numb to it.

So what rebellion comes after that? How do you shock people that are bored of being shocked?

i think this implies that simply shocking people is not the way to go. it's not the shock that does the mindfuck that causes the thinking that opens the door.
like mooing in a public transport (sorry kaouusu, but i sorta agree with PVS on that -- though that doesn't mean it isn't fun!)

to RWHN: doesn't the fact that you don't think those examples are really absurd, sort of prove the Prof's argument? also, even though All Your Base is oldest hat as anything, if you don't think it's completely absurd to carry a mistranslated japanese text so far, then i think we're talking about a different definition of absurdism ;-)

speaking about absurdism. i could give a lot of examples of more subtle, not-quite-but-seemingly-non-sequitur absurdism that appears in Dutch and Belgian humouristic cartoons (to name a few, Kamagurka, Gummbah, Spekkie Big, Het Stomme Beertje ..).
they often take the shape of "intensely bad jokes", kind of like the link of unfinished jokes i passed in another (or this?) thread to LMNO.
I have organized "the International Day of the Bad Joke" event/party a few times at my students-association (edition 1, 2 1/2 and of course 33 1/3 .. because Bad Jokes aren't supposed to be funny). the main running feature of the event was "the interruption microphone". when somebody had a Bad Joke to share with the audience, they would get on the stage, the music would be stopped, and in utter silence the joke would be told, followed by utter silence (if there was any laughter instead of some painful groaning, obviously it was NOT a Bad Joke and the person would be honed away by the audience "NO PUNS!!!").

An example of a typical Bad Joke (which survives translation rather well):

At his office, an accountant opens the safe. He finds a naked woman inside. Says the accountant "WHERE IS THE MONEY??!"

as preparation for this event i took the task upon myself to let no possibility for a Bad Joke go untold. after practising this a few weeks before the event, I never got rid of the habit afterwards. I enjoy the groaning of utter despair way too much in a sadistic kind of way to not bother people with. (ok I admit, they usually turn out to be incredibly bad far-fetched puns)

Well, that's just it, though, isn't it?

The joke itself, bad, punny, etc., doesn't have to be brilliant.  It has to represent a cultural base that's easily recognizable by the audience it's told to and its message needs to be salient and make a point not already made (or at least somewhat original to the thinking brain, so that it sticks).

That's what absurdity can do if it's effective.  The effective absurd transcends shock, transcends funny.

The "mooing" example, for example, wasn't meant to bring people out of anything other than the usual-somnolent state they employ while being literally herded by their infrastructure and socio-cultural space from one point to another.  You bring them out of this comotosal state by a simple onomatopoeia:  moo.

It's brilliant, actually.  Because it's easily tangible and immediately effective.

Especially if they then take it to the next level and stampede.  :D

Triple Zero

#47
LMNO:
> Triple Zero is now my new short-term personal savior.

how short-term?
and are you saved yet?
is there anything i can do to strengthen my position for the next short term?

RWHN:
> There is no such thing as bad far-fetched puns.

but the badness of my puns is only outshone (?) by their far-fetchedness!

Jenne:
> Well, that's just it, though, isn't it?

i am aware that that post seems to be contradicting itself. but let me summarize it shortly in the two points that it tries to make:
1) simply shocking people, just as simple absurdism is not the way to go for the kind of making-schmucks-think-for-themselves type mindfuck that discordians are after. just that is not enough for making people genuinely go "huh?" in which very short moment they have to actually form their own opinion about something and think for themselves.
you need something extra, something that (metaphorically speaking) is on one end attached to their current paradigm, but peels loose from it and heads elsewhere like a curved piece of rail for their train of thought (whoa, metaphores!) and at the end of it finding themselves in no-mans-land.

2) i personally enjoy absurdisms and bad far-fetched puns. but they're not particularly enlightening for the people i tell them to (except for the accidental random horrible troof that slips by). they are related to discordianism in the way that my taste for bad puns is probably what got me interested in the first place, but i don't think it's a keystone anymore in the discordianism of the 21st century. or, rather, it kind of goes without saying.
maybe absurdism and bad puns were more novel and new in the 60s when the PD was written?

3) sorry for the bad english and the fact that it was not, in fact, a short summary. i misled you.

4) edit: i totally forgot about lollercaust. maybe i take it all back.
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e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

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P3nT4gR4m

Confucius say "flash of wisdom just as likely to come from bad joke as barstool to the head"

Saying the right thing, to the right person, in just the right way, at the precise time it takes for them to 'get it', is something that defies deliberate intention.

If the intention is there regardless, however, then you both end up laughing at the cosmic joke together. It's like cerebral simultaneous orgasm. I kinda dig it. And it also doesn't make me feel queasy sharing it with a man.

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Jenne

Quote from: triple zero on January 26, 2007, 08:27:50 PM
LMNO:
> Triple Zero is now my new short-term personal savior.

how short-term?
and are you saved yet?
is there anything i can do to strengthen my position for the next short term?

RWHN:
> There is no such thing as bad far-fetched puns.

but the badness of my puns is only outshone (?) by their far-fetchedness!

Jenne:
> Well, that's just it, though, isn't it?

i am aware that that post seems to be contradicting itself. but let me summarize it shortly in the two points that it tries to make:
1) simply shocking people, just as simple absurdism is not the way to go for the kind of making-schmucks-think-for-themselves type mindfuck that discordians are after. just that is not enough for making people genuinely go "huh?" in which very short moment they have to actually form their own opinion about something and think for themselves.
you need something extra, something that (metaphorically speaking) is on one end attached to their current paradigm, but peels loose from it and heads elsewhere like a curved piece of rail for their train of thought (whoa, metaphores!) and at the end of it finding themselves in no-mans-land.

2) i personally enjoy absurdisms and bad far-fetched puns. but they're not particularly enlightening for the people i tell them to (except for the accidental random horrible troof that slips by). they are related to discordianism in the way that my taste for bad puns is probably what got me interested in the first place, but i don't think it's a keystone anymore in the discordianism of the 21st century. or, rather, it kind of goes without saying.
maybe absurdism and bad puns were more novel and new in the 60s when the PD was written?

3) sorry for the bad english and the fact that it was not, in fact, a short summary. i misled you.

4) edit: i totally forgot about lollercaust. maybe i take it all back.

1)  I don't think you need to reinvent any wheels, however.  All that was being suggested was a lighter touch.  A spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down, so to speak.  And don't forget, for all those guys are now "old hat," the original authors of the PD have longevity.  There's a reason for that.

2)  I don't think humor is declasse.  To assume so is to throw out your funny bone with the bathwater.  Not cool.  You also assume your readership doesn't have a funnybone.  They do, and they like to use it.  No need to be scholarly and professorlike, ranting and preacherlike 100% of the time.  Coaxing, cajoling and going for the hoots and hollers can be just as effective.  Luring the flies with honey rather than vinegar, I guess.

What I'm trying to say is that throwing what material there COULD be out there and not expecting great and huge things from it could actually have more of a surprise and good things come out of it than you'd expect.  That's the best kind of material, in a lot of ways.  If it's reachable, if it's not unattached to the original goal, then why the hell not? 

Is laughing at yourself a waste of time?

Triple Zero

not really sure if that's what i wanted to say, but i agree 100% with what you just said there.

though i still think it would be very valuable to make sure there is also an extra, discordian-oriented, layer underneath the humor. so that people don't go "haha very funny" and then dismiss it, but perhaps question themselves "why was that funny" or some other lingering thought.

though humour an sich, is already quite good for this itself, like sillycybin said in the cosmic giggle thread, the very moment of "getting it", is like this tiny drop of enlightenment.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

The Littlest Ubermensch

Quote from: triple zero on January 27, 2007, 11:13:43 AM
though humour an sich, is already quite good for this itself, like sillycybin said in the cosmic giggle thread, the very moment of "getting it", is like this tiny drop of enlightenment.

All humor is is a method of reacting to our realization of a break in a pattern. Pretty much anything funny is out of the ordinary in some way. Presenting people with a lot of humor is a great way of getting people acclimated to the unusual, so they'd be more willing to look at actual philosophy.

(I hope nobody already said that. If so,  :oops: in advance.)
[witticism/philosophical insight/nifty quote to prove my intelligence to the forum]

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Triple Zero

maybe useful addition here, the "definition of humour" according to John Cleese, which i picked up from one of his books ages ago (so i may have remembered it wrong):

Quote from: John Cleesetwo --at first sight unrelated-- frames of reference that are brought into connection in an unexpected manner
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Jenne

Dammit, I needed that definition over THERE *points to humor in BIP fread*... :D

AFK

Quote from: triple zero on January 29, 2007, 10:31:34 AM
maybe useful addition here, the "definition of humour" according to John Cleese, which i picked up from one of his books ages ago (so i may have remembered it wrong):

Quote from: John Cleesetwo --at first sight unrelated-- frames of reference that are brought into connection in an unexpected manner

Baby seal walks into a club.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Triple Zero

easy, it's a double one in fact.

- on one level:
two frames of reference = two meanings of the word "club"
unexpected manner = usage in a "walks into a .."-joke, which arguably isn't really unexpected once you think of it, but it's short enough to be unexpected before you have a chance to think about it. timing is also part of humour.

- on another level:
two frames of reference = 1) the typical expectation of structure of a "X walks into a bar/club"-joke versus 2) the actual structure of the joke
unexpected manner = the joke does not follow the typical structure of this joke but instead ends prematurely as the punchline is in the usage of the word "club", not in what actually happens in the club.

(explaining the joke from this template can probably also be done in a few other ways, perhaps)
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

hunter s.durden

Quote from: triple zero on January 30, 2007, 10:00:54 PM
easy, it's a double one in fact.

- on one level:
two frames of reference = two meanings of the word "club"
unexpected manner = usage in a "walks into a .."-joke, which arguably isn't really unexpected once you think of it, but it's short enough to be unexpected before you have a chance to think about it. timing is also part of humour.

- on another level:
two frames of reference = 1) the typical expectation of structure of a "X walks into a bar/club"-joke versus 2) the actual structure of the joke
unexpected manner = the joke does not follow the typical structure of this joke but instead ends prematurely as the punchline is in the usage of the word "club", not in what actually happens in the club.

(explaining the joke from this template can probably also be done in a few other ways, perhaps)

I would put this whole thing down. Explaining a joke is sooo unfunny that it's funny to me.
This space for rent.

LHX

effort takes humor out of everything


unless you are watching the thing making the effort

then its funny as hell



like this thread is prolly a riot to anybody reading it



people are suspicious of people who try to be funny
neat hell

Triple Zero

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 30, 2007, 10:04:34 PMI would put this whole thing down. Explaining a joke is sooo unfunny that it's funny to me.

hell yeah!  :lol:

usually when i make a joke/pun so BAD that people's brains somehow refuse to even attempt to get it or recognize it's a joke.

i EXPLAIN it to them, just to PAIN them some more.

down to the gritty details.

"not funny huh??! I'LL SHOW YOU NOT FUNNY"
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

LHX

Quote from: triple zero on January 30, 2007, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 30, 2007, 10:04:34 PMI would put this whole thing down. Explaining a joke is sooo unfunny that it's funny to me.

hell yeah!  :lol:

usually when i make a joke/pun so BAD that people's brains somehow refuse to even attempt to get it or recognize it's a joke.

i EXPLAIN it to them, just to PAIN them some more.

down to the gritty details.

"not funny huh??! I'LL SHOW YOU NOT FUNNY"
hahaaaaaaa

you sick bastard

make em squirm huh?
neat hell