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Really real discordians

Started by Dalek, November 21, 2010, 08:37:00 PM

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Cramulus

at the risk of being pedantic,

the word Fag has been used since the dawn of time to refer to people that suck.

It was originally a pejorative term used for poor people - those that had to go into the woods and gather faggots (ie sticks) to sell as firewood for a few pence apiece.

Later, it was used to refer to old people. (Who are as pathetic as those poor people that gather firewood)

It didn't refer to homosexuals until very recently.

Now on the internets, its usage fairly common. And in most of its internet usages, the person is not referring to a homosexual, but rather somebody that sucks. For example "newfag" = newbie. If I call you a newfag I am not making fun of you for being gay, I'm making fun of you for being new and unhip.


So while I agree that is usage is impolite, the word "fag" is not inherently homophobic, especially if the person did not mean it in an "insulting to homosexuals" context. I mean, when you call somebody a Geek, you're not calling them a circus freak. These things have multiple definitions, and the definitions gradually change over time.


I do prefer to call people spags though, so I don't have to explain myself in a drawn out and rather unfunny way, like this. :p

Salty

I don't think many people saying oldfag are hating on The Gays.
I just think it's stupid and comes from a place chock-full-o-stupid and should stay there.

Some 4chan memes are funny. Just not that one, IMO.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

hooplala

Quote from: Cramulus on November 22, 2010, 07:06:18 PM
at the risk of being pedantic,

the word Fag has been used since the dawn of time to refer to people that suck.

It was originally a pejorative term used for poor people - those that had to go into the woods and gather faggots (ie sticks) to sell as firewood for a few pence apiece.

Later, it was used to refer to old people. (Who are as pathetic as those poor people that gather firewood)

It didn't refer to homosexuals until very recently.

Now on the internets, its usage fairly common. And in most of its internet usages, the person is not referring to a homosexual, but rather somebody that sucks. For example "newfag" = newbie. If I call you a newfag I am not making fun of you for being gay, I'm making fun of you for being new and unhip.


So while I agree that is usage is impolite, the word "fag" is not inherently homophobic, especially if the person did not mean it in an "insulting to homosexuals" context. I mean, when you call somebody a Geek, you're not calling them a circus freak. These things have multiple definitions, and the definitions gradually change over time.


I do prefer to call people spags though, so I don't have to explain myself in a drawn out and rather unfunny way, like this. :p

Let it be known: if I call you "geek", I am directly implying you bite the heads off live chickens.

Fair warning.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

LMNO

While Cram might be correct in the evolution of the term, if you asked someone what "fag" means, most would say either that it's a slur for homosexual, or that it explicitly was not a slur for homosexual-- that is, they believed it usually is a slur, "but not in the way I do it."

Which is simply a nice way of justifying why they use what they believe to be a homosexual slur.


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: The Spagifex Maximus on November 22, 2010, 06:54:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 22, 2010, 06:44:59 PM
Well, the outrage I get here for being an utter bastard is nothing compared to that which I receive IRL (from a certain traumatized neighor, for example), so it's no big deal.  

It's just funny, is all.  My guess is that Dalekk's friend that signed up took us a little too seriously, got pissed, and left.

ROGER, You are a terrily bad man. We all know it. That's why we love you.

Also, enquiring minds would like to know more about the Mind Control Cock.

Also also, seeing as I have you here: Are you going to be coming over to this side of the Atlantic in the next while, as was (almost, but not really, kinda) planned?

ALL travel plans are up in the air right now, for reasons to aggravating to go into.

I'll let you know more as things develop.
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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Phox

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on November 22, 2010, 07:16:43 PM
While Cram might be correct in the evolution of the term, if you asked someone what "fag" means, most would say either that it's a slur for homosexual, or that it explicitly was not a slur for homosexual-- that is, they believed it usually is a slur, "but not in the way I do it."

Which is simply a nice way of justifying why they use what they believe to be a homosexual slur.



This. Again, it depends on the perception of the person hearing it, not the "intention" of the person saying it.. "Newfag", "oldfag", etc. are direct derivatives from the use of "fag" as a homophobic slur, and they are still charged with that sentiment.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I like to use "fag" in ways that are either completely appropriate, or utterly inappropriate.

For example, I have some friends who are old fags. They love to be called old fags. They refer to each other and themselves as fag.

I also will call some of my friends who are specifically not fags, fags. Or bitches. We are all pretty fond of referring to each other as bitches. One of my friends affectionately refers to us all, male or female, as snatches.

The difference is that these terms are being used, appropriately or not, within the context of a cohesive and affectionate social group. That's not the case when you go on the internet and refer to other people as fags or snatches, so while it's perfectly reasonable for me and my friends to call each other fags and snatches, it would be PRETTY FUCKING STUPID to say those things to a group of random internet people of various backgrounds and expect everyone to be cool with it.

Right, snatches?

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

I'm pretty sure I haven't said 'fag' since I was 14 or so.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Cain

Faggots are a delicious and traditional meal.

LMNO

Quote from: Nigel on November 22, 2010, 07:30:35 PM
The difference is that these terms are being used, appropriately or not, within the context of a cohesive and affectionate social group. That's not the case when you go on the internet and refer to other people as fags or snatches, so while it's perfectly reasonable for me and my friends to call each other fags and snatches, it would be PRETTY FUCKING STUPID to say those things to a group of random internet people of various backgrounds and expect everyone to be cool with it.

Right, snatches?

The bitch has a point.

Cramulus

Quote from: Phox on November 22, 2010, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on November 22, 2010, 07:16:43 PM
While Cram might be correct in the evolution of the term, if you asked someone what "fag" means, most would say either that it's a slur for homosexual, or that it explicitly was not a slur for homosexual-- that is, they believed it usually is a slur, "but not in the way I do it."

Which is simply a nice way of justifying why they use what they believe to be a homosexual slur.



This. Again, it depends on the perception of the person hearing it, not the "intention" of the person saying it.. "Newfag", "oldfag", etc. are direct derivatives from the use of "fag" as a homophobic slur, and they are still charged with that sentiment.


see I think they are direct derivatives of the word "fag" used as a generally insulting term

that's why you never hear anything like "newqueer" or "new-homo" or "newgay" or whatever else people insultingly call homosexuals these days



I think earlier ITT somebody posted a link to the southpark episode about this which encapsulates this discussion pretty well. The kids were pissed off that these bikers were being really obnoxious and spraypainted "GO AWAY FAGS" all over town. This prompted the elementary school to lecture them about tolerance for  homosexuals, which confused everybody. Eventually somebody said, "ohhh. .they think that we were referring to gay fags."


the same argument could apply to the word "whore". I can call somebody a drama-whore without being inherently offensive to women.

Or I can say "quit bitching", and it's not inherently sexist, even though if you tease it apart, I am saying that your whining reminds me of a woman.


(I'm not saying you're bitching BTW, just giving an example  :wink:)

Jenne

Language taboos are a totally interesting subject.  The line between a phrase or word being seen as appropriate or inappropriate is usually drawn by those who set the "overt prestige" factors in a language (i.e. educators, the media, the ruling classes, and those who are unfortunate enough to have an entity like L'Ecole Francaise).  What makes it more acceptable amongst those who don't set overt prestige factors is usually the covert prestige their cohort offers (like Nigel's close set of friends).

PD.com certainly carries a large set of covert prestige terms that might seem inappropriate or taboo in larger settings outside of PD.com (like "glorious faggot" and probably "spag").  So when members "cross the streams" between a site like /b/-chan and PD.com, you can see where the clas could come.

/I like linguistics.

Dane$$a

Quote from: Hoopla on November 22, 2010, 07:32:18 PM
I'm pretty sure I haven't said 'fag' since I was 14 or so.

Well thats nice now maybe you can give up on NIGGER too

Disco Pickle

Quote from: Subetai on November 22, 2010, 07:33:10 PM
Faggots are a delicious and traditional meal.

I thought they were cigarettes?

"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann

hooplala

"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman