Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM

Title: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM
 This is part of a series where I explain(TRUMP-splain? eh eh?) how Trump happened to people who increasingly claim to have no idea how he happened. Part one will deal with the low hanging fruit, Trumps racism. How did America elect someone who says such offensive things about minorities? Surely this is evidence of a new revival of racism in America. Yes and no. No. Racism isnt behind the rise of Trump, I wouldnt say its behind even the majority of his support. Yes there is a new wave of racism, but it isnt a revival of the old racism. Its a brand new racism of mostly young people who have been converted. People who if recent trends had continued shouldnt have become racists. These two things, people who arent racist voting for someone who says such racist things and people who otherwise wouldnt be racist suddenly becoming racist have the same cause.

To understand this, you have to understand what Trump supporters actually heard when you called him, and them racists.


1) Immigration
Supply and demand is very simple. When the supply for something goes up, the demand goes down. And when you have one product not only flooding the market, but flooding it at a much lower price, Brand X is not long for this world. Illegal Immigration is the practice of US businesses importing sub-minimum wage slave labor from outside the country, completely flouting existing immigration law and undercutting the working class job market in the process. There was a time when economy was much better that liberals would defend this system with two arguments:

1) "Illegal Immigrants do the Jobs Americans dont want to do"

2) "Youre a Racist"

Number one isnt tossed around too much anymore for obvious reasons(try going down to the unemployment office and explaining that to the people there. No really. I dare you) So now they have defaulted to number two. Liberals have managed to completely avoid having any kind of meaningful discussion about this topic because they refuse to tackle the actual economic implications of millions of people illegally crossing the border and taking full advantage of our infastructure and social safety net while doing cash in hand work. Instead, they have spent the whole debate on this issue cherrypicking the worst of the worst from the people who oppose the issue, and then declaring all other arguments to just be clever fronts for racism.
And how CONVENIENT it is, that most of the liberals who support immigration dont work the kinds of jobs where they have to compete with them WHILE enoying the benefits of cheaper goods from lower labor costs. Its also worth noting that this is not an issue that is divided on race. Blacks (http://www.gallup.com/poll/4852/americans-clearly-oppose-amnesty-illegal-mexican-immigrants.aspx), themselves mostly working class and competing for the same jobs, largely agree with White America on this issue. And the 30% (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/trump-did-better-blacks-hispanics-romney-12-exit-polls-n681386) of again, legally immigrated working class Hispanics who voted for trump despite his open anti-hispanic racism is also telling. The true dividing line in the immigration debate, is class (http://www.gallup.com/poll/186341/economic-outlook-shapes-views-immigration.aspx). Turning Immigration into a purely racial issue is how well off liberals completely ignore the class aspects of it.

"Dont like us undercutting your wages with slave labor so we can save 10 cents on kale? Youre a Racist."



2) Obamacare
The Affordable Care Act, also known as MittRomneyCare, is the brainchild of the NeoCon thinktank Hertiage Foundation. It proposes to solve the problem of millions of Americans unable to afford healthcare by giving anyone who cant afford healthcare massive fines, and giving the healthcare industry a big sloppy subsidy blowjob on top of that. It is a disaster (http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/24/news/economy/obamacare-premiums/) for millions of Americans. There was a massive backlash against it for all the reasons I just listed. But again, like Immigration, liberals very artfully avoided actually looking at the nuts and bolts of the issue by turning it into yet another case of Privledged White's(who just happen to make less money than them) pretending to actually have problems so they could vent their deep seated racism. Think back to when there was an actual debate against this. When you heard "opposes Obamacare" you didnt think of the 51% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx) of Americans who want to repeal it. You thought of a very small minority of those people who wore tea-bag hats. You dismissed it as just another "old white person" tantrum.

Case in point:
http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/21/democratic-senator-many-people-oppose-obamacare-because-theyre-racists/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterubel/2013/11/21/is-opposition-to-obamacare-racist/#7a83e293570a

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-lynch-edd/opposition-to-the-afforda_b_4527875.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/05/23/yes-opposition-to-obamacare-is-tied-up-with-race/

"Dont like ACA fines? Youre a racist."


3) The War on Terror
`This is the most bizzare of all of them. The current administration is fighting wars in seven different muslim countries, has a policy of actively targeting civilians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike) while destabilizing the entire region. Yet Trump is the evil racist because... he doesnt want to import the same people we are bombing here. This might get its own longer writeup so Ill leave it at this, it is fucking INSANE to bomb someone and throw your doors open for them at the same time. It is also completely scummy to intentionally burn down someones home and then pat yourself on the back for letting them stay in your basement. Everyone will tell you that youre a racist for assuming that Syrian immigrants hate us. But what sane rational person in their position WOULDNT hate us after what we have done to their country? Why should ordinary civilians bear the brunt of the resentment of policies enacted by their leaders? "You know ISIS used Donald Trump in a recruitment video?" Yeah. You know what they also use, PICTURES OF KIDS KILLED BY OBAMAS AIR STRIKES. Which one do you honestly think gets more recruits?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-push-block-syrian-refugees-u-s-racist-article-1.2438092

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/27/you-should-fear-racism-and-xenophobia-not-syrian-refugees-or-muslims/

Dont like reaping the consequences of what your war mongering elites have sown so """""liberal""""" warmongers can feel warm fuzzies while destroying their homelands? Youre a racist.



  These are all policies people see as in their interest. So you told them they were racist. The left never even tried to actually convince people that the policies they opposed were against their interests, only that they were racist. Generally the way to persuade someone away from something is to tell them it is AGAINST their interests. You did 99% of the groundwork for the new surge of racism by convincing people that all the things they cared about and believed in were already racist. All the racists had to do was point to you and say "THEYRE COMPLETELY RIGHT!"
 
  Trumps openly racist comments, rather than being him putting his foot in his mouth, were brilliant strategy. Because all his opponents did was go for the low hanging fruit and scream "racist" "racist" over and over again like it was a magic spell that would make him go away. And in the process they completely ignored all the policies that made him popular. Meanwhile the nonracists conservatives that support Trump are just completely numb to it. Its been used as a dog whistle against them for so long that they dont even care anymore. And its worth asking, why should they? Why should they have to answer for the racists among them anymore than the muslim world should answer for terrorist attacks? They dont hear anything when you say "racist" anymore but people who are by and large, more educate, more employed, better employed, more privileged than them in every way beating them down and telling them they deserve it. What else do you call upper middle class white males using "white male (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDCMBiu08M)" as an insult against lower-middleclass(and that divide is growing every day) white males but hypocritical thinly veiled classism?
 
  And the conservatives that actually care about egalitarianism, they cant self police because when they do they sound like Bill Cosby telling the black community to pull up their pants. What Trump has proven is that shouting racist isnt a magic argument winner anymore. People are either apathetic about it or theyre beginning to take it to heart almost entirely out of spite, not for minorities, but for YOU. If the left plans on winning anything, AND THAT INCLUDES THE WAR ON RACISM, it cant just play this game of calling everyone who opposes them a racist. It has to actually make the case for its policies being in their interest.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 09, 2016, 09:02:39 PM
Interesting writeup. 'Liberals' are going to have to figure out what the hell happened sooner or later and your perspective of it as more of a class issue than a race one could be an explanation.

Another thing this election goes to show I suppose is how strong everyone's reality bubble is - and even when you tell yourself you're tolerant and all that good shit ultimately you are always judging someone.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: Xaz on November 09, 2016, 09:02:39 PM
Interesting writeup. 'Liberals' are going to have to figure out what the hell happened sooner or later and your perspective of it as more of a class issue than a race one could be an explanation.

Another thing this election goes to show I suppose is how strong everyone's reality bubble is - and even when you tell yourself you're tolerant and all that good shit ultimately you are always judging someone.

Reality bubbles are what killed liberals this year. Its why they thought Clinton was going to win all the way up to the end. Because the Trump their filter created was completely unelectable, sadly this was not the Trump Clinton actually ran against. Hopefully the smarter ones will be shaken out of the feedback loop by the fact that it was so utterly and completely wrong, but most wont. "Please people who were wrong about everything, explain to me what happened"

Also a little more nuanced that it being more race than class. Race has become a proxy for class, which in the age of 1% owning 99% of everything has become a taboo subject.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 09, 2016, 11:35:44 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM
This is part of a series where I explain(TRUMP-splain? eh eh?) how Trump happened to people who increasingly claim to have no idea how he happened. Part one will deal with the low hanging fruit, Trumps racism. How did America elect someone who says such offensive things about minorities? Surely this is evidence of a new revival of racism in America. Yes and no. No. Racism isnt behind the rise of Trump, I wouldnt say its behind even the majority of his support. Yes there is a new wave of racism, but it isnt a revival of the old racism. Its a brand new racism of mostly young people who have been converted. People who if recent trends had continued shouldnt have become racists. These two things, people who arent racist voting for someone who says such racist things and people who otherwise wouldnt be racist suddenly becoming racist have the same cause.

To understand this, you have to understand what Trump supporters actually heard when you called him, and them racists.


1) Immigration
Supply and demand is very simple. When the supply for something goes up, the demand goes down. And when you have one product not only flooding the market, but flooding it at a much lower price, Brand X is not long for this world. Illegal Immigration is the practice of US businesses importing sub-minimum wage slave labor from outside the country, completely flouting existing immigration law and undercutting the working class job market in the process.

So then...Trump is actually a communist. Or at least has co-opted their proletariat populism bullshit

EDIT:
He's nnot gonna be the next Hitler, he's gonna be the nexy Pol Pot instead (and if there was ever any man more deplorable than Hitler it would have to be Pol Pot)
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Pergamos on November 09, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
This is good stuff.  I desperately hope someone is saying this sort of thing to Democratic politicians, they have an opportunity to seize on class as a real issue, they have always been the pro union, pro affordable education, pro social safety net party.  Recognizing that we need to address immigration in a better way than just letting people in  (personally I favor making them all legal workers, subject to the same protections and minwage as everyone else) that we need really affordable healthcare, and that we need to stop blowing up Muslims and actually really stop blowing them up would be a good start.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:08:57 AM
So in short white voters acted as a block and voted trump against their own interests.

Awesome. I'm sure the racist graffiti that's being steadily reported is just happenstance.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 12:13:13 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:08:57 AM
So in short white voters acted as a block and voted trump against their own interests.

Except they didnt vote against their own interests. They did the exact opposite of that. But thank you for reminding me what part 2 is going to be about. Pathologizing Working Class Anger, and the Liberals complete unwillingness to confront how much damage their policies have done to them.

Quote from: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:08:57 AM
Awesome. I'm sure the racist graffiti that's being steadily reported is just happenstance.

Are you doing that Nigel thing where you dont read what I write and just try to make quips about what you imagined I wrote?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:19:46 AM
No, I'm looking at maps and it looks like white voters went against norms and voted as a racial block for the pro white guy.

It will be shown to be against their interests when jobs don't magically appear and their quality of life degrades. This leads to the next guy campaigning in a white hood.

Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 12:29:45 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:19:46 AM
No, I'm looking at maps and it looks like white voters went against norms and voted as a racial block for the pro white guy.

Pro-White meaning what exactly? Interesting that you define "pro-white" as being against white interests. More importantly how was Clinton going to serve those interests better? By supporting the TPP?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:56:51 AM
Pro white as in "guy who consistently says racist shit". Pro white as in kkk endorsed.

Tpp and such irrelevant, watch welfare programs, education and healthcare leave people generally worse off.

Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 10, 2016, 12:56:51 AM
Pro white as in "guy who consistently says racist shit". Pro white as in kkk endorsed.

Tpp and such irrelevant, watch welfare programs, education and healthcare leave people generally worse off.

Healthcare already was leaving people worse off and Clinton promised to continue this. You would know this if you actually read what I wrote.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: NeonWytch on November 10, 2016, 01:08:59 AM
This is going to be short, because I don't have much time right now, but my argument against heavily strengthening the border is that it provides a huge incentive for overstaying your visa and just wiring money home instead of coming in and leaving seasonally. Thus, strengthening the border increases the number of illegal immigrants who use our infrastructure and our safety nets year round.

You make some good points about framing things as a class issue, though I disagree that the number of racially motivated Trump  supporters is small.

I will post more when I get the chance
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2016, 01:48:40 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on November 09, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
This is good stuff.  I desperately hope someone is saying this sort of thing to Democratic politicians, they have an opportunity to seize on class as a real issue, they have always been the pro union, pro affordable education, pro social safety net party.  Recognizing that we need to address immigration in a better way than just letting people in  (personally I favor making them all legal workers, subject to the same protections and minwage as everyone else) that we need really affordable healthcare, and that we need to stop blowing up Muslims and actually really stop blowing them up would be a good start.

You are making one rather large assumption.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 01:57:33 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM1) Immigration
Supply and demand is very simple. When the supply for something goes up, the demand goes down. And when you have one product not only flooding the market, but flooding it at a much lower price, Brand X is not long for this world. Illegal Immigration is the practice of US businesses importing sub-minimum wage slave labor from outside the country, completely flouting existing immigration law and undercutting the working class job market in the process.

I sort of get this except for one thing, if they're so worried about losing their jobs, why vote for the anti-safety-net people?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 04:41:43 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 01:57:33 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM1) Immigration
Supply and demand is very simple. When the supply for something goes up, the demand goes down. And when you have one product not only flooding the market, but flooding it at a much lower price, Brand X is not long for this world. Illegal Immigration is the practice of US businesses importing sub-minimum wage slave labor from outside the country, completely flouting existing immigration law and undercutting the working class job market in the process.

I sort of get this except for one thing, if they're so worried about losing their jobs, why vote for the anti-safety-net people?

1) Because they believe the safety net is being abused. They never vote for insane NO SAFETY NET AT ALL libertarian types. Its always framed as stopping people from taking advantage of the safety net, or being trapped in it. In particular look at Trumps "anti-welfare" comments. Theyre very mild, especially compared to insane 08 teabagger shit, and focuses mostly on the idea that people get economically trapped in the net.

2) Because they value not needing the safety net more than protecting it. Why would you vote for someone who is gong to destroy your job market just because they offer to give you foodstamps? Youd obviously vote for the guy whos going to let you keep your ability to feed yourself without foodstamps. Would you rather vote for the guy whos going to shoot you and then patch you up or the guy who isnt going to shoot you in the first place?

Theres something to be said about being trapped in the net. I know a schizophrenic guy, in and out of mental asylums most of his adult life. He recently got out after trying to hang himself with a belt. He was stuck in a halfway home, but was promised once he got out he would have housing assistance. Before all of this he was working full time minimum wage, and he managed to keep his job through the whole debacle. Well guess what, theres a limit on how much you can work while getting the housings assistance. So because, while he was in the halfway home and not the apartment mind you, he was working full time as soon as he moved into his new apartment he was kicked out. Now hes living with his mom and has to willingly make much less money if he wants any help at all.
  How is someone in that kind of situation supposed to get out of it? Its almost designed to make you dependent.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 04:41:43 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 01:57:33 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 09, 2016, 08:50:05 PM1) Immigration
Supply and demand is very simple. When the supply for something goes up, the demand goes down. And when you have one product not only flooding the market, but flooding it at a much lower price, Brand X is not long for this world. Illegal Immigration is the practice of US businesses importing sub-minimum wage slave labor from outside the country, completely flouting existing immigration law and undercutting the working class job market in the process.

I sort of get this except for one thing, if they're so worried about losing their jobs, why vote for the anti-safety-net people?

1) Because they believe the safety net is being abused. They never vote for insane NO SAFETY NET AT ALL libertarian types. Its always framed as stopping people from taking advantage of the safety net, or being trapped in it. In particular look at Trumps "anti-welfare" comments. Theyre very mild, especially compared to insane 08 teabagger shit, and focuses mostly on the idea that people get economically trapped in the net.

2) Because they value not needing the safety net more than protecting it. Why would you vote for someone who is gong to destroy your job market just because they offer to give you foodstamps? Youd obviously vote for the guy whos going to let you keep your ability to feed yourself without foodstamps. Would you rather vote for the guy whos going to shoot you and then patch you up or the guy who isnt going to shoot you in the first place?

Theres something to be said about being trapped in the net. I know a schizophrenic guy, in and out of mental asylums most of his adult life. He recently got out after trying to hang himself with a belt. He was stuck in a halfway home, but was promised once he got out he would have housing assistance. Before all of this he was working full time minimum wage, and he managed to keep his job through the whole debacle. Well guess what, theres a limit on how much you can work while getting the housings assistance. So because, while he was in the halfway home and not the apartment mind you, he was working full time as soon as he moved into his new apartment he was kicked out. Now hes living with his mom and has to willingly make much less money if he wants any help at all.
  How is someone in that kind of situation supposed to get out of it? Its almost designed to make you dependent.

We need to go in the other direction. Above the limit it should continue at a reduced amount. In fact there should be no hard limit at all, just an amount of assistance that asymptotically approaches zero as income goes to infinity (but in practice reaches a point where it drops under half a penny and thus rounds to zero somewhere in the general neighborhood of middleclass income)

EDIT:
Or, if you don't want to muck about with asymptotic equations, they could reduce assistance by one cent for every two cents over the limit (or in general any setup of "reduce assistance by X cents for every Y cents over the limit" where Y>X) so that total income would always increase except in the case of raises totalling less than 2 cents (or whatever you sey Y to be)
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 04:41:10 PM
I thought it might be a good way for me to understand a few things by responding to the OP.  However, I'll be approaching it in a more abstract way. 

First off, while it's true a lot of people voted for Trump, and they have thoughts about why, I really can't buy that the majority of Trump voters used the links and logic the OP does.  I will acknowledge, though, that they have feelings that can be retconned by said logic.  Furthermore, the links provided have been... debated, if you will.  Debunked, possibly.  Either way, that path only leads to throwing links at each other, which doesn't resolve the main point: Despite whether it's true, a Trump voter may feel it's true.  And that, more than anything, can easily drive a person's choices.

Secondly, the OP uses a "typical" liberal's responses and/or arguments, and portrays them as simplistic, dismissive, and insulting; however, in doing so, the OP employs the same type of behavior and language decried in the post itself.  So, I will refrain from responding to them, as they are bait, as well as a strawman.

So, to business.  Let us assume that the Trump voter in question is at least of average intelligence.  Let us also assume that the Trump voter is not part of the KKK, or any openly racist organization. 

Point 1:  A trump voter feels that immigration has made it harder for them to find jobs, and they feel that illegal immigrants are using a welfare system they don't contribute to through taxes.

Put aside that the point conflates immigration with illegal immigration, since it seems obvious the point is about migrant illegal workers.  This feeling is expressed with the desire to end illegal migrant labor from coming into the country, and deporting any illegal migrant labor currently here.

There are many objections that can be raised to this plan of action: Some are economic (to raise the cost of labor to a living wage would come at significant cost to the farmer, and pass it on to the consumer, and to spend money in this country, even cash money, means some of that money is being collected by taxes); some logistical (the amount of resources and coordination to deport 11 million people or so would be in the hundreds of billions, and that doesn't address the increase of border patrols, not to mention the separate logistics of building a wall); some categorical (many illegal immigrants are not migrant laborers who take jobs away from workers, and therefore should not be part of the Point 1 objection... to include them is to make the assumption "all X are Y", which can often be defined as prejudiced); some moral (many of the ways proposed to identify illegal migrant workers involves profiling which, if not with an outright racist, quickly becomes racist when put into action).

Given our above assumptions, we can conclude the Trump voter has either heard these objections and rejected them, they have not heard them and/or have been given false information, or they accept the consequences that the objections raise.

Also given the assumptions, the second conclusion is self-correcting.  Our assumed Trump voter is not ignorant.  So, we are left with the first and third possible conclusions.  To reject the objections and accept the consequences of deporting illegal immigrants, they are accepting potentially destructive policies, as well as functionally racist methods to fulfill the policies. 

So, while the Trump voter is question "isn't" racist, they are making choices whose outcomes are.  Again, given our assumptions, the Trump voter is comfortable with this.

It should also be noted that farmers who own land and use migrant workers [/i]also[/i] voted for Trump, which raises its own questions about the scope and accuracy of Point 1.

Point 2: The Affordable Care Act is a disaster.

This is a bit harder to parse, both given our assumptions about the Trump Voter, and also because many liberals also oppose it, for many of the same reasons stated.  However, the point in the OP only touches the surface: If the goal of the ACA is to make sure people get better healthcare in the system as it exists (insurance companies), then either the ACA must work within the scope of the system (involve for-profit insurance companies), the ACA must break the system (single payer), or the goal should be abandoned (leave millions of Americans without health care).

The GOP and the insurance companies absolutely refused to get on board with single payer, and the DNC refused to abandon the goal.  So, how would a plan to build the ACA work inside the system?  Since the insurance company would be the one to pay the bulk of the bills (after co-pays), the only way to insure the sick affordably is to have people who aren't sick to be paying premiums as well.  This is how it normally works, and for small populations (i.e. the ones previously with healthcare insurance), there is a balance of sick and healthy people, leaving the companies with a profit.  The very healthy and the very sick were outside the system, as the very healthy didn't need it, and the very sick were rejected and/or couldn't afford the insurance.

But if the goal is for everyone to have health insurance, then everyone must have health insurance, whether they want to or not.  It must be a mandate.  The ACA didn't do it because they wanted it that way, they did it because it had to be that way.

Now, given our assumptions of the Trump voter, and going through the same analysis, they must accept that this is the way the ACA has to work within the for-profit insurance system.  To then object to the ACA means the Trump voter either wants single payer, or they want very sick people not to have access to healthcare.

Since the Trump voter obviously voted for Trump with full knowledge of his proposed health plan, we can look to that to see what the answer is.  Trump's plan allows insurance companies to deny coverage based upon the health of the applicant.  Therefore, the Trump voter wants very sick people not to have access to healthcare.

Now, as it turns out, black and hispanics had a very low rate of being insured prior to the ACA, and they also had higher rates of illness.  Given our assumptions of the Trump voter, this means that the Trump voter's choice will disproportionately affect minorities.  Which may not be racist in itself, but it really, really looks racist.

Point 3: Syrian refugees are coming to this country to exact revenge.

This one is surprisingly difficult to answer.  Not because I agree with the OP, but given the assumptions about the Trump voter, it's hard to come to the same conclusion.  The Trump voter as described will have read articles about who these refugees are, have a basic understanding of the conflict in Syria, understand the long and arduous vetting process already in place, and understand that the refugees we have already accepted under the program have a lower crime rate than American-born citizens.  They may even have an understanding of the concept of "acceptable risk". 

The only way I can get to the same conclusion as the point is trying to make is by assuming the Trump voter's tolerance of risk is so low as to be approaching zero; which if true, almost certainly is the only risk they have at such a low level (if you're more likely to die in a car crash than by a Syrian refugee terror attack, your risk tolerance for driving a car must be substantially higher).

A risk tolerance that singular, and that low, will naturally present itself as making a universal judgement about Syrians, refugees, and Muslims.  Again, even if that conclusion is not necessarily racist, it sure looks it.



So, I've shown that the Trump voter can claim not to be racist, while simultaneously exhibiting racist behavior, given the assumptions about who this voter is.  What if we change those assumptions?

If the Trump voter is below average intelligence, then their arguments are subject to faulty reasoning, and can be show to be wrong.

If the Trump voter is a racist, then all arguments are an a priori fallacy.

Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 06:35:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 04:41:10 PM
I thought it might be a good way for me to understand a few things by responding to the OP.  However, I'll be approaching it in a more abstract way. 

First off, while it's true a lot of people voted for Trump, and they have thoughts about why, I really can't buy that the majority of Trump voters used the links and logic the OP does.  I will acknowledge, though, that they have feelings that can be retconned by said logic.  Furthermore, the links provided have been... debated, if you will.  Debunked, possibly.  Either way, that path only leads to throwing links at each other, which doesn't resolve the main point: Despite whether it's true, a Trump voter may feel it's true.  And that, more than anything, can easily drive a person's choices.

Secondly, the OP uses a "typical" liberal's responses and/or arguments, and portrays them as simplistic, dismissive, and insulting; however, in doing so, the OP employs the same type of behavior and language decried in the post itself.  So, I will refrain from responding to them, as they are bait, as well as a strawman.

If you think my typical liberal responses are strawmen I can link you to a shitload of people in the previous thread being simplistic, dismissive and insulting towards me. I also linked to actual articles making these points in most of them. Linking to what people have actually said isnt exactly a strawman.

Quote
So, to business.  Let us assume that the Trump voter in question is at least of average intelligence.  Let us also assume that the Trump voter is not part of the KKK, or any openly racist organization. 

Point 1:  A trump voter feels that immigration has made it harder for them to find jobs, and they feel that illegal immigrants are using a welfare system they don't contribute to through taxes.

Put aside that the point conflates immigration with illegal immigration, since it seems obvious the point is about migrant illegal workers.  This feeling is expressed with the desire to end illegal migrant labor from coming into the country, and deporting any illegal migrant labor currently here.

There are many objections that can be raised to this plan of action: Some are economic (to raise the cost of labor to a living wage would come at significant cost to the farmer, and pass it on to the consumer, and to spend money in this country, even cash money, means some of that money is being collected by taxes); some logistical (the amount of resources and coordination to deport 11 million people or so would be in the hundreds of billions, and that doesn't address the increase of border patrols, not to mention the separate logistics of building a wall); some categorical (many illegal immigrants are not migrant laborers who take jobs away from workers, and therefore should not be part of the Point 1 objection... to include them is to make the assumption "all X are Y", which can often be defined as prejudiced); some moral (many of the ways proposed to identify illegal migrant workers involves profiling which, if not with an outright racist, quickly becomes racist when put into action).

Given our above assumptions, we can conclude the Trump voter has either heard these objections and rejected them, they have not heard them and/or have been given false information, or they accept the consequences that the objections raise.

Also given the assumptions, the second conclusion is self-correcting.  Our assumed Trump voter is not ignorant.  So, we are left with the first and third possible conclusions.  To reject the objections and accept the consequences of deporting illegal immigrants, they are accepting potentially destructive policies, as well as functionally racist methods to fulfill the policies. 

So, while the Trump voter is question "isn't" racist, they are making choices whose outcomes are.  Again, given our assumptions, the Trump voter is comfortable with this.

It should also be noted that farmers who own land and use migrant workers [/i]also[/i] voted for Trump, which raises its own questions about the scope and accuracy of Point 1.

First, Im just going to say this was my bad to avoid a semantic argument that goes nowhere, when I said Immigration I meant illegal immigratiion. No one wants to kick out people who went through the system and became citizens the legal way.

"We know this illegal activity is hurting you economically but its so out of hand that we cant even do anything about it" probably isnt going to convince anyone who thinks Illegal Immigration us a problem that we shouldnt crack down on it. Rephrase this "Rape/Theft/Murder/Literally Anything is so widespread and pervasive we dont even have the resources to effectively fight it" isnt really an argument against taking drastic action, its an argument FOR it. Likewise "the only way we can stop this pressing problem you care deeply about is racist" isnt an argument against being racist.

Your post DOES come close to touching on a solution that I personally support, that would be almost universally supported except by Ayn Rand fucks and which Clinton even briefly dabbled with to try and win anti-illegal immigration votes from Trump far far too late in her campaign. Go after the people that hire them. Make the penalties so steep that no one will risk it. Make an example of a big company.

This will sadly, NEVER happen because we live in an Employer-ocracy. Whatever anti-immigration policies Trump pursues Im guessing will just be War on Drugs 2.0. One big giant federal spending boondoggle that will create and monopolize a new blackmarket in one fell swoop.


Quote
Point 2: The Affordable Care Act is a disaster.

This is a bit harder to parse, both given our assumptions about the Trump Voter, and also because many liberals also oppose it, for many of the same reasons stated.  However, the point in the OP only touches the surface: If the goal of the ACA is to make sure people get better healthcare in the system as it exists (insurance companies), then either the ACA must work within the scope of the system (involve for-profit insurance companies), the ACA must break the system (single payer), or the goal should be abandoned (leave millions of Americans without health care).

The GOP and the insurance companies absolutely refused to get on board with single payer, and the DNC refused to abandon the goal.  So, how would a plan to build the ACA work inside the system?  Since the insurance company would be the one to pay the bulk of the bills (after co-pays), the only way to insure the sick affordably is to have people who aren't sick to be paying premiums as well.  This is how it normally works, and for small populations (i.e. the ones previously with healthcare insurance), there is a balance of sick and healthy people, leaving the companies with a profit.  The very healthy and the very sick were outside the system, as the very healthy didn't need it, and the very sick were rejected and/or couldn't afford the insurance.

But if the goal is for everyone to have health insurance, then everyone must have health insurance, whether they want to or not.  It must be a mandate.  The ACA didn't do it because they wanted it that way, they did it because it had to be that way.

Now, given our assumptions of the Trump voter, and going through the same analysis, they must accept that this is the way the ACA has to work within the for-profit insurance system.  To then object to the ACA means the Trump voter either wants single payer, or they want very sick people not to have access to healthcare.

Since the Trump voter obviously voted for Trump with full knowledge of his proposed health plan, we can look to that to see what the answer is.  Trump's plan allows insurance companies to deny coverage based upon the health of the applicant.  Therefore, the Trump voter wants very sick people not to have access to healthcare.

Now, as it turns out, black and hispanics had a very low rate of being insured prior to the ACA, and they also had higher rates of illness.  Given our assumptions of the Trump voter, this means that the Trump voter's choice will disproportionately affect minorities.  Which may not be racist in itself, but it really, really looks racist.

"The GOP and Insurance Companies" Do you remember when we had a Democratic President AND a Democratic majority in congress? The GOP and Insurance Companies should have gotten blown out of the god damn water. Also you have successfully outlined why the ACA to work had to have mandatory health care, but you fail to explain why this is a good thing. Of course more blacks and hispanics are now insured under the ACA, so are whites. Thats what happens when you make it illegal to not be insured. Theyre also all paying premiums that have been going up since it was implemented and continue to skyrocket.

Again, do you honestly believe the 51% of Americans who want Obamacare repealed simply cant stand to see black people get medicine?

Quote
Point 3: Syrian refugees are coming to this country to exact revenge.

This one is surprisingly difficult to answer.  Not because I agree with the OP, but given the assumptions about the Trump voter, it's hard to come to the same conclusion.  The Trump voter as described will have read articles about who these refugees are, have a basic understanding of the conflict in Syria, understand the long and arduous vetting process already in place, and understand that the refugees we have already accepted under the program have a lower crime rate than American-born citizens.  They may even have an understanding of the concept of "acceptable risk". 

The only way I can get to the same conclusion as the point is trying to make is by assuming the Trump voter's tolerance of risk is so low as to be approaching zero; which if true, almost certainly is the only risk they have at such a low level (if you're more likely to die in a car crash than by a Syrian refugee terror attack, your risk tolerance for driving a car must be substantially higher).

A risk tolerance that singular, and that low, will naturally present itself as making a universal judgement about Syrians, refugees, and Muslims.  Again, even if that conclusion is not necessarily racist, it sure looks it.

Have YOU read articles about who these refugees are? Can you honestly look at the Migrant crisis and in Germany and say you want that here? Even Merkel regrets it. And Yes, I am making a near universal judgement about Syrians. They probably hate the people who are murdering their families en mass to get some stupid pipeline built. In most cases Id assume this would not need proving, but if you want proof, look at whats happening in Europe. Even SWEDEN, is trying to backtrack on this now. If you really feel bad for them how about you push to stop the wars that are creating the refugees in the first place. It is absolutely insane to vote for someone who by their own admission was "going to kill a lot of Syrians" and then lecture people for voting for someone because he doesnt want to import them here.

Quote
So, I've shown that the Trump voter can claim not to be racist, while simultaneously exhibiting racist behavior, given the assumptions about who this voter is.  What if we change those assumptions?

If the Trump voter is below average intelligence, then their arguments are subject to faulty reasoning, and can be show to be wrong.

If the Trump voter is a racist, then all arguments are an a priori fallacy.

But youre still not getting it. Youre arguing over if these people are racists or not, or if the policies they support are racist or not, none of that is ever going to convince them away from these policies. If you want to actually WIN the next time around you need to address these things. The rising premiums, the flood of illegals, migrant violence. You cant just handwave these problems away as racist and then expect people to stop being worried about them. You have to provide an attractive alternative.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 07:04:07 PM
1.  There is no viable alternative offered.  You even admit your proposed solution would not be implemented.

2.  You treat all Democrats as being progressives.  This is not true.  You also are asking why sick people being able to afford health care is a good thing.  That question is... morally dubious.

3.  Germany is not equivalent to the US.  The analogy does not hold.  You also are admitting to racism ("Yes, I am making a near universal judgement about Syrians").


In short, 2/3 of your responses are admitted, not perceived stances that many progressives and Democrats would, and do, abhor.  And you are asking why they would call you racist and amoral?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 07:04:07 PM
1.  There is no viable alternative offered.  You even admit your proposed solution would not be implemented.

Yeah but it could be part of a 2020 platform. And bear in mind Trumps solution is better than the current democrat position of "there is no solution."

Quote
2.  You treat all Democrats as being progressives.  This is not true.  You also are asking why sick people being able to afford health care is a good thing.  That question is... morally dubious.

And youre acting like its ACA or nothing. Trump is proposing a system of forcibly negotiating lower drug prices(which are price gouged to hell), making premiums tax deductible, greater price transparency and increasing the supply of generics. All things which will actually make healthcare affordable, rather than putting a gun to peoples heads and forcing them to buy increasingly more expensive care. Which has decreased the number of uninsured Americans but also driven into poverty because of it. Again, when you cannot afford something forcing you to buy it, is not a solution. And "well we WANTED a single payer system but our own party turned against us and forced us to force this mess on you" does not make me want to put a Democrat near healthcare for the next hundred years.

Quote
3.  Germany is not equivalent to the US.  The analogy does not hold.  You also are admitting to racism ("Yes, I am making a near universal judgement about Syrians").

Ok, you are correct. Germany is in fact, an entirely different country on an entirely different landmass and ocean away than the US. They are in fact different countries. I concede this point. I dont see what makes it so different that a policy that is catastrophically failing in both it and every European nation its been implemented in would somehow magically turn out alright in America though. And yes, if making the assumption that people who you are currently fighting a war that openly targets civilians hate you is racist, I am guilty as charged.

Quote
In short, 2/3 of your responses are admitted, not perceived stances that many progressives and Democrats would, and do, abhor.  And you are asking why they would call you racist and amoral?

I dont ask why. Im not offended at "reverse-racism" or whatever. Im asking you, why should people you openly abhor vote for you? Do you just concede that these people run everything now and go home? Are you going to overthrow the government? How do you plan on actually changing peoples minds?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:06:05 PM
Oh, is that what the OP was?  It read as if you were explaining why calling a Trump voter "racist" was an incorrect description.

Anyway, the post was more me thinking things through than trying to engage you. 
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 08:47:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:06:05 PM
Oh, is that what the OP was?  It read as if you were explaining why calling a Trump voter "racist" was an incorrect description.

More like a useless strategy that directly aided his rise to power.
Quote
Anyway, the post was more me thinking things through than trying to engage you.

Oh so you were just pretending to be retarded.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:48:33 PM
Keep fucking that chicken, pal.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 08:51:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:48:33 PM
Keep fucking that chicken, pal.

Keep being too SMARTtm to just admit you wrote a gazillion words based on a misreading. "Yeah I just prematurely ejaculated but this was more me masturbating that actually trying to have sex with you anyways."
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:56:25 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 08:51:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:48:33 PM
Keep fucking that chicken, pal.

Keep being too SMARTtm to just admit you wrote a gazillion words based on a misreading. "Yeah I just prematurely ejaculated but this was more me masturbating that actually trying to have sex with you anyways."

Keep fucking that chicken, pal.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 10, 2016, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 07:04:07 PM
1.  There is no viable alternative offered.  You even admit your proposed solution would not be implemented.

2.  You treat all Democrats as being progressives.  This is not true.  You also are asking why sick people being able to afford health care is a good thing.  That question is... morally dubious.

3.  Germany is not equivalent to the US.  The analogy does not hold.  You also are admitting to racism ("Yes, I am making a near universal judgement about Syrians").


In short, 2/3 of your responses are admitted, not perceived stances that many progressives and Democrats would, and do, abhor.  And you are asking why they would call you racist and amoral?

He's not here to reason. Remember not to play checkers with pidgeons. Win or lose they simply strut around and shit on the board. This one also happens to be QUITE the little pecker as well.

Put simply he's a more polite version of Brother Nihil, in that he doesn't outright use slurs, but polite shit is still shit. He's probably nowhere near so evasive with his REAL friends getting their "Kuk"fix over on 4chan.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 10, 2016, 09:17:43 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 10, 2016, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 07:04:07 PM
1.  There is no viable alternative offered.  You even admit your proposed solution would not be implemented.

2.  You treat all Democrats as being progressives.  This is not true.  You also are asking why sick people being able to afford health care is a good thing.  That question is... morally dubious.

3.  Germany is not equivalent to the US.  The analogy does not hold.  You also are admitting to racism ("Yes, I am making a near universal judgement about Syrians").


In short, 2/3 of your responses are admitted, not perceived stances that many progressives and Democrats would, and do, abhor.  And you are asking why they would call you racist and amoral?

He's not here to reason. Remember not to play checkers with pidgeons. Win or lose they simply strut around and shit on the board. This one also happens to be QUITE the little pecker as well.

But you see I didnt lose, I just won. Youre the ones who lost. I dont think you understand how the election works.

Quote
Put simply he's a more polite version of Brother Nihil, in that he doesn't outright use slurs, but polite shit is still shit. He's probably nowhere near so evasive with his REAL friends getting their "Kuk"fix over on 4chan.

My views with my Alt-Right friends are roughly the same as they are here but with more memes. I dont know what you think Im being evasive about since Ive outright said I was a fascist. If you want me to clarify something about my beliefs Im more than willing.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Faust on November 10, 2016, 09:40:09 PM
The Germany example isn't a very good one. I can't stand Merkel but to the Germans credit, despite saying they should have regulated the flow of refugees into Europe,  Germany increased the amount of people it was taking in. Even in the wake of several terrorist attacks, they accept that people are dying trying to escape their country and need help, it is the worst humanitarian disaster facing the world at the moment.

This year 4000 people have drowned trying to cross the Med sea. 10k have drowned since 2012. Of the millions of displaced people, only a handful have been involved in any attacks.

I can understand why America wouldn't want to take them in, what with bombing civilians from said country, (And accidentally bombing the Kurds based on false information from the Turks), a strict filtering process on people from Syria would be necessary, that still leaves 2B Muslims from Malaysia, India Sri Lanka who should have freedom of movement like any other nation or race. So fine, let America neglect a humanitarian crises, the best we can really ask right now is to stop the bombings and making things worse.
But that doesn't mean no country should be aiding Syrian people trying to escape murder from ISIS or their own government. Neglect them, marginalise them, make them feel like the world has abandoned them and we WILL create terrorists.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 11:30:06 PM
Also the immigration taking jobs thing is only relevant in the short term anyway because in a few years they're all gonna be replaced with robots anyway
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 09:07:36 AM
I think RP's point could be rephrased as:

Whether you think Trump's policies are racist or not, and whether you think his supporters are, by association, all massive racists... Trump's still won the election and is gonna be President.

So from here you can either dig in and hold onto your position of 'racists and terrible people did this' or you can at least try and understand why.

I think that recently ( and I mean further back than this election... maybe around 2010) 'racist' has been increasingly used to shut down discussion. What we are seeing here is that people who have been on the receiving end of being called racist - are no longer dissuaded from thinking whatever thoughts have been branded as such by the other side (in this case, democrats/liberals/whatever).

So are all of these people racist for supporting a man who says racist things and will implement policies that are likely to negatively affect people of non-white pigmentation? Maybe some are. But I think it's uncharitable and definitely unproductive to brand them all as racist.

These people are people who have seen the system of the past 8 years fail to improve their lives in appreciable ways. And humans are short-sighted creatures at the end of the day. When there's not enough keeping you satisfied in your own life then your levels of compassion for 'others' is going to drop right? So maybe these people are disenfranchised and yes, perhaps not basing their actions on what is best for 'humanity', the nebulous ideal that that holds. But instead they are basing their decisions on what will be immediately best for them and theirs.

While you may disagree with their decision I think it's futile and somewhat shameful to carry on dismissing what's going on.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 01:36:20 PM
So, it's a bad thing to call racists racist?

I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.
   \
(http://www.jeffbots.com/hal.jpg)
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't call out racist behaviour... intolerance left unchecked is only likely to get worse.

However
eight years of liberal progressiveness has apparently alienated a large portion of the population and there's only so much banging your head against the wall one can do before your brain starts leaking out of your ears.

I can't believe that every person who voted Trump is a racist of the cross-burning, hood-wearing variety and I think that lumping them all together under that umbrella is damaging to 'the cause' of social progress.

Alright a lot of them might be like that and maybe they voted along those lines. But all of them? Come on. The reasons surely differ from person to person.

By exploring those reasons maybe we can discover some handles with which to steer the runaway train that is global society.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 02:12:00 PM
You don't have to burn a cross to be racist.  You just have to believe some people don't have as many rights as others.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 03:00:49 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 02:12:00 PM
You don't have to burn a cross to be racist.  You just have to believe some people don't have as many rights as others.

OK I agree with the jist of what you're saying here (although one could infer from the above that if you think women shouldn't have as many rights that makes you racist).

I guess my point is that thinking of people as inherently either 'racist' or 'not racist' isn't a very productive categorisation. As with all things, there's a sliding scale of racism and there are, like it or not, cultural and socioeconomic reasons why someone who is otherwise in full control of their faculties might harbour some ideas that could be construed as racist when taken to their logical conclusions.

Shouting at them "That makes you a racist and you should feel bad about that." Probably doesn't help because, to them, they might not have even considered the racial element before forming their ideas.

Now, one could argue that not considering the impact that your actions are going to have on those of other races is racist in and of itself but from the standpoint of this discussion i'd frame it more as ignorance/myopic self interest.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
I don't know man - there probably isn't a polite way of saying it, no. Telling someone that you think they are wrong is going to raise heckles however it's said.

And i'll admit, I don't have a lot of historical knowledge about how bigotry has been combatted in the past so maybe (probably) you're right and pointing it out is an effective way of challenging it. I mean - whichever way you cut it, civil liberties in the US have gradually been improving, which, I guess is an indicator that the status quo is working.

However we've still got President Trump.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

You dont get it. In your bubble calling someone a bigot means something. To these people it means nothing. All youre doing is throwing insults that dont have any power over them to begin with. Its like if you walked up to an ISIS fighter and said "You hate democracy" Is it supposed to accomplish something? You have to actually offer an alternative to Bigotry that is attractive to them.

Quote
And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

Yeah. But they also had other things to do than lecture people. Look at gay rights. There are a lot of people who used to be against homosexuality who are now for gay marriage. This did not happen by acting smarter than them and insulting them. In fact there have been studies done on this very question. The two things that convinced people the most in this order were:

1) The Coming Out movment. When gays are some shady weirdos in San Francisco theyre easy to hate. When it turn out gays are the guy in your office, your best friend, your brother, its harder. People actually got to know gay people and see that they werent so bad.

2) Research on the biological roots of homosexuality. Its hard to hate people for something they cant control and were basically born with.

Remember the Civil Rights movement? Do you really think they got ANYWHERE by screeching racist at everyone at a time when Racist was the status quo? Do you honestly think that was the core of their strategy? Do you think that no minds were actually changed at all?

Youve given up on persuasion because you are incapable of it. The fact that you think persuasion is just calling them racists more politely proves this. Your entire movement has trapped itself in a bubble of enforcing goodrightthink at all costs and have completely lost touch with how people actually think. You are never going to get anywhere with the outgroup with your ingroup memes. Stop trying to figure this out on PD, find the outgroup and expose the shit out of yourself to them. Stop filtering them out and actually deal with them. It probably wont be pleasant. You will in fact be offended. But until you do you will have no ability to communicate with them and your only options will be to give up or just kill them.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
And by the way, the average Trump voter, I have dealt with them on a regular basis both online and offline since his campaign started, is WAY more unpleasant than me. If you cant deal with my shitposting then the Australians are going to bring you to tears.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 04:50:48 PM
Keep fucking that chicken, pal.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 05:47:13 PM
I know i've posted this guy a couple of times recently but he makes a number of good points, one of which is:

QuoteNot everyone that voted for Trump is a sexist or a racist... how many times does the vote not have to go our way before we realise the argument isn't won by hurling labels and insults... if you are unwilling to discuss you are creating the conditions that allow Trump... to thrive.

President Trump: How and Why... by Jonathan Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs


Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 06:19:44 PM
What discussion? "I'm voting for someone who wants to create a national registry for any and all muslims in the country."

...

Uh, that's racist?

"Fuck you!"
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 06:42:35 PM
Quote from: Xaz on November 11, 2016, 05:47:13 PM
I know i've posted this guy a couple of times recently but he makes a number of good points, one of which is:

QuoteNot everyone that voted for Trump is a sexist or a racist... how many times does the vote not have to go our way before we realise the argument isn't won by hurling labels and insults... if you are unwilling to discuss you are creating the conditions that allow Trump... to thrive.

President Trump: How and Why... by Jonathan Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

The fallacy here is that they are using "sexist" and "racist" as nouns. They aren't nouns, they are adjectives. Sexism and racism aren't things you ARE, they are ideas and attitudes you HAVE that influence how you think of and treat other people. The most common form of sexism and racism is simple disregard.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 06:46:22 PM
This is why, when you point out to someone that they have done or said something racist, if they respond with "I AM NOT A RACIST" there is no conversation you can have. They have decided that "A Racist" is a type of monster, a bad guy, and since they aren't a bad guy they can't be "a racist". This pattern of thinking completely shuts down dialogue about racism by redefining it from something ordinary people do all the time without thinking about it, to something done consciously and with intent by terrible people.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 07:20:27 PM
Would "you're acting racist" work better?   Not a troll, an honest question.  I know semantics is largely bullshit, but if it's more accurate, and easier to accept, than maybe?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:23:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 06:19:44 PM
What discussion? "I'm voting for someone who wants to create a national registry for any and all muslims in the country."

...

[Alternative less horrifying plan to deal with the same problem]

^This. This is what you do.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Salty on November 11, 2016, 07:25:48 PM
I think our education system omits too many skill-sets that allow these kinds of conversations to be productive with people like that. I think the education aspect is probably the most critical.

If high schoolers were shown the exact, highly detailed specifics of the kinds of things that happen under a certain kinds of rule, they would think twice. If Americans were properly educated as to how WW2 and the Holocaust actually happened, and what happened as a result, we would not be in this situation.

The white middle class is too comfortable and stupid to learn the error of their current ways. This will probably go all the way to Muslim internment camps, and only afterwards will the country acknowledge it's mistake. Maybe.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
Quote from: Xaz on November 11, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't call out racist behaviour... intolerance left unchecked is only likely to get worse.

However
eight years of liberal progressiveness has apparently alienated a large portion of the population and there's only so much banging your head against the wall one can do before your brain starts leaking out of your ears.

I can't believe that every person who voted Trump is a racist of the cross-burning, hood-wearing variety and I think that lumping them all together under that umbrella is damaging to 'the cause' of social progress.

Alright a lot of them might be like that and maybe they voted along those lines. But all of them? Come on. The reasons surely differ from person to person.

By exploring those reasons maybe we can discover some handles with which to steer the runaway train that is global society.

We didn't alienate them. They were already just as racist and sexist, and when women and people of color felt more free to demand less oppression,  they felt threatened. They would feel threatened by any effort at reducing inequity, because they think it's a zero-sum game. So our options become to either accept inequities in order to avoid making them feel threatened, or to try to redress inequities, causing them to feel threatened.

In other words, the only way to keep them from feeling threatened is for us to "know our place", and stay in it.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:37:44 PM
So, basically, it's still down to waiting for them to age out and die, while continuing to make a fuss about racism and misogyny so that the young people have a head start on getting this shit sorted. The younger generation is much, much better. They don't have as much of a kneejerk reaction to the idea that being considerate to other people is some kind of erosion of their rights.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:42:35 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:37:44 PM
So, basically, it's still down to waiting for them to age out and die, while continuing to make a fuss about racism and misogyny so that the young people have a head start on getting this shit sorted. The younger generation is much, much better. They don't have as much of a kneejerk reaction to the idea that being considerate to other people is some kind of erosion of their rights.

Trump won 40% of the millennial vote and 48% of the white millennial vote.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:44:43 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
We didn't alienate them. They were already just as racist and sexist, and when women and people of color felt more free to demand less oppression,  they felt threatened. They would feel threatened by any effort at reducing inequity, because they think it's a zero-sum game. So our options become to either accept inequities in order to avoid making them feel threatened, or to try to redress inequities, causing them to feel threatened.

In other words, the only way to keep them from feeling threatened is for us to "know our place", and stay in it.

This is amazing. Person who has zero contact with white working class America reasserts their magical knowledge of them and their own rightness in the face of being completely wrong about everything about the election.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:45:32 PM
Does Nigel have me blocked? If she does I would like a split preferably to the existing election thread. I dont want people who block me posting off topic in my threads.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:54:50 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 07:20:27 PM
Would "you're acting racist" work better?   Not a troll, an honest question.  I know semantics is largely bullshit, but if it's more accurate, and easier to accept, than maybe?

I have tried a million different ways of pointing out racism, and some people are willing to understand but some people go to "racism is a bad thing that bad people do and I'm not a bad person, so what I'm doing must not be racist... HEY THAT PERSON IS CALLING ME A BAD PERSON!"

Essentially, it seems like some people just can't or won't break out of that loop.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
Thing is, we ARE seeing a backlash, but I think a lot of people are mistaken about why. We are seeing a backlash because we reached a stage where underrepresented groups finally felt like it was safe to ask to be treated like full human beings. The backlash is happening in response to that, not because people are "alienated from our cause". They were never with our cause in the first place, and they just want us to shut up about it because we make them feel uncomfortable and threaten their complacency.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 08:10:57 PM
I learn things when I listen to you.  Thanks for sticking around this dump.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 08:11:15 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
Thing is, we ARE seeing a backlash, but I think a lot of people are mistaken about why. We are seeing a backlash because we reached a stage where underrepresented groups finally felt like it was safe to ask to be treated like full human beings. The backlash is happening in response to that, not because people are "alienated from our cause". They were never with our cause in the first place, and they just want us to shut up about it because we make them feel uncomfortable and threaten their complacency.

"The reason were losing is because were right"

2018 cant come soon enough.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 08:10:57 PM
I learn things when I listen to you.  Thanks for sticking around this dump.

You learned nothing. She told you were already right and you have nothing to learn.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 08:14:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 08:10:57 PM
I learn things when I listen to you.  Thanks for sticking around this dump.

Thanks, man! I really appreciate that.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 11, 2016, 11:23:40 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
Quote from: Xaz on November 11, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't call out racist behaviour... intolerance left unchecked is only likely to get worse.

However
eight years of liberal progressiveness has apparently alienated a large portion of the population and there's only so much banging your head against the wall one can do before your brain starts leaking out of your ears.

I can't believe that every person who voted Trump is a racist of the cross-burning, hood-wearing variety and I think that lumping them all together under that umbrella is damaging to 'the cause' of social progress.

Alright a lot of them might be like that and maybe they voted along those lines. But all of them? Come on. The reasons surely differ from person to person.

By exploring those reasons maybe we can discover some handles with which to steer the runaway train that is global society.

We didn't alienate them. They were already just as racist and sexist, and when women and people of color felt more free to demand less oppression,  they felt threatened. They would feel threatened by any effort at reducing inequity, because they think it's a zero-sum game. So our options become to either accept inequities in order to avoid making them feel threatened, or to try to redress inequities, causing them to feel threatened.

In other words, the only way to keep them from feeling threatened is for us to "know our place", and stay in it.

The problem is that a lot of people are as concerned about trivialities as inequalities. And some people are worried about what basically amounts to politeness as if it were vital; being miserable and treating other people like dirt is my right as an america. And a lot of people harp on equalities that no longer exist; I've encountered people who talk about slavery as if it were something that happened within living memory (as in, happened here in America in living memory, not in the third world or in nazi germany or something like that); I've done the math; if someone was born at the end of the civil war and lived 120 years they would've died before I was even born with time to spare
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 11, 2016, 11:34:58 PM
Personally I'm glad about SJWs being taken down a peg, the problem with me is that a Republican win means that their even more toxic equivalemts on the Right (the religious nutbags and the moralizing family values people) will be moved up a peg, and that is unacceptable
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Pergamos on November 12, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

"you are acting bigoted" is better than "you are a bigot" in my opinion, it may not actually be more polite but it is more accurate in that it labels the action and not the person.  Everyone does bigoted things sometimes, we need to realize when we do and work to do less of them but labelling someone who does a bigoted thing as a bigot makes redemption much more difficult.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 13, 2016, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on November 12, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

"you are acting bigoted" is better than "you are a bigot" in my opinion, it may not actually be more polite but it is more accurate in that it labels the action and not the person.  Everyone does bigoted things sometimes, we need to realize when we do and work to do less of them but labelling someone who does a bigoted thing as a bigot makes redemption much more difficult.

Here's the thing, at what point does it become more accurate to then describe said person as a bigot? When someone repeatedly makes shitty comments, it's pointless to keep pointing out the idiocy as they haven't learnt to pack it in previously. In the obvious case of trump, no-one can reasonably claim they've not heard multiple slurs against X and he still got about 50% of the vote. By any metric, trump is an irredeemable racist at the least and this has been well documented for decades. After that long, it's fair to say you're looking at a bigot and not someone who accidentally keeps saying really shitty things and needs a gentle reminder.

Redemption is largely irrelevant as I doubt any are seeking it and no-one is in a position to grant it anyway. Black jesus doesn't appear and Hi-five you for not being a shitbag.


On a slightly different note, Nigel/LMNO/Anyone who cares - I'm seeing numbers like 42% of women went for trump. While elections don't really get more that 60/40 anyway, I expected this to be higher. Worth a look? I would have thought 12 accusations and the various comments should have done more damage.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 12:38:29 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 13, 2016, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on November 12, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

"you are acting bigoted" is better than "you are a bigot" in my opinion, it may not actually be more polite but it is more accurate in that it labels the action and not the person.  Everyone does bigoted things sometimes, we need to realize when we do and work to do less of them but labelling someone who does a bigoted thing as a bigot makes redemption much more difficult.

Here's the thing, at what point does it become more accurate to then describe said person as a bigot? When someone repeatedly makes shitty comments, it's pointless to keep pointing out the idiocy as they haven't learnt to pack it in previously. In the obvious case of trump, no-one can reasonably claim they've not heard multiple slurs against X and he still got about 50% of the vote. By any metric, trump is an irredeemable racist at the least and this has been well documented for decades. After that long, it's fair to say you're looking at a bigot and not someone who accidentally keeps saying really shitty things and needs a gentle reminder.

Redemption is largely irrelevant as I doubt any are seeking it and no-one is in a position to grant it anyway. Black jesus doesn't appear and Hi-five you for not being a shitbag.


On a slightly different note, Nigel/LMNO/Anyone who cares - I'm seeing numbers like 42% of women went for trump. While elections don't really get more that 60/40 anyway, I expected this to be higher. Worth a look? I would have thought 12 accusations and the various comments should have done more damage.

53% if I recall, if you just look at white women. It drops significantly when you include black and hispanic women.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 14, 2016, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:45:32 PM
Does Nigel have me blocked? If she does I would like a split preferably to the existing election thread. I dont want people who block me posting off topic in my threads.

Cain Faust? Rodger is refusing.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 15, 2016, 11:37:07 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
Thing is, we ARE seeing a backlash, but I think a lot of people are mistaken about why. We are seeing a backlash because we reached a stage where underrepresented groups finally felt like it was safe to ask to be treated like full human beings. The backlash is happening in response to that, not because people are "alienated from our cause". They were never with our cause in the first place, and they just want us to shut up about it because we make them feel uncomfortable and threaten their complacency.

The problem is that you're (or at least the subset of you who have latched onto concepts like microaggressions and such) just the liberal version of the right's moralizing decency-and-family-values assclowns. A bunch of busybodies who have nothing better to do than get offended by innocuous behavior, seeing "oppression" everywhere the way the decency wingnuts imagine degeneracy and satan everywhere
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 12:22:25 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 14, 2016, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 07:45:32 PM
Does Nigel have me blocked? If she does I would like a split preferably to the existing election thread. I dont want people who block me posting off topic in my threads.

Cain Faust? Rodger is refusing.
:hitlerbanjo:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 16, 2016, 01:56:46 AM
Or at least that's the impression that people have, regardless of however many non-insane people are also there, because those people are effectively invisible (and given that this is about changing public opinion and societal norms, also effectively not there)
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 16, 2016, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:19:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.

2018 cant come fast enough.
:hitlerbanjo:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2016, 05:47:01 AM
I thought this essay was really insightful, and accurately explains why I don't feel any need to let these people into my living room.

http://forsetti.tumblr.com/post/153181757500/on-rural-america-understanding-isnt-the-problem

QuoteIn deep red, white America, the white Christian God is king, figuratively and literally.  Religious fundamentalism is what has shaped most of their belief systems.  Systems built on a fundamentalist framework are not conducive for introspection, questioning, learning, change.  When you have a belief system that is built on fundamentalism, it isn't open to outside criticism, especially by anyone not a member of your tribe and in a position of power.  The problem isn't "coastal elites don't understand rural Americans."  The problem is rural America doesn't understand itself and will NEVER listen to anyone outside their bubble.  It doesn't matter how "understanding" you are, how well you listen, what language you use...if you are viewed as an outsider, your views are automatically discounted.  I've had hundreds of discussions with rural white Americans and whenever I present them any information that contradicts their entrenched beliefs, no matter how sound, how unquestionable, how obvious, they WILL NOT even entertain the possibility it might be true.  Their refusal is a result of the nature of their fundamentalist belief system and the fact I'm the enemy because I'm an educated liberal.  At some point during the discussion, "That's your education talking," will be said, derogatorily, as a general dismissal of everything I said.  They truly believe this is a legitimate response because to them education is not to be trusted.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 05:54:29 AM
 
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:19:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.

2018 cant come fast enough.
:hitlerbanjo:

:butthurt2:
:drama1:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:25:32 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2016, 05:47:01 AM
I thought this essay was really insightful, and accurately explains why I don't feel any need to let these people into my living room.

http://forsetti.tumblr.com/post/153181757500/on-rural-america-understanding-isnt-the-problem

QuoteIn deep red, white America, the white Christian God is king, figuratively and literally.  Religious fundamentalism is what has shaped most of their belief systems.  Systems built on a fundamentalist framework are not conducive for introspection, questioning, learning, change.  When you have a belief system that is built on fundamentalism, it isn't open to outside criticism, especially by anyone not a member of your tribe and in a position of power.  The problem isn't "coastal elites don't understand rural Americans."  The problem is rural America doesn't understand itself and will NEVER listen to anyone outside their bubble.  It doesn't matter how "understanding" you are, how well you listen, what language you use...if you are viewed as an outsider, your views are automatically discounted.  I've had hundreds of discussions with rural white Americans and whenever I present them any information that contradicts their entrenched beliefs, no matter how sound, how unquestionable, how obvious, they WILL NOT even entertain the possibility it might be true.  Their refusal is a result of the nature of their fundamentalist belief system and the fact I'm the enemy because I'm an educated liberal.  At some point during the discussion, "That's your education talking," will be said, derogatorily, as a general dismissal of everything I said.  They truly believe this is a legitimate response because to them education is not to be trusted.

You were doing a really good actually blocking me instead of just loudly declaring you werent listening to me in every thread. Then you mess it up by passive aggressively off topic posting in my threads. YOU REALLY DONT CARE WHAT I THINK ALRIGHT.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:29:27 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 05:54:29 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:19:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.

2018 cant come fast enough.
:hitlerbanjo:

:butthurt2:
:drama1:

>butthurt
>winning

Also this should just be pointed out:
Quote
They truly believe this is a legitimate response because to them education is not to be trusted.

The education system is currently selling an entire generation into debt slavery and you think it SHOULD be trusted? Do you honestly think people who make you take out massive loans to pay for a piece of paper that might or might get an actual education with it, in the vain hopes that this piece of paper will let you get a good enough job to eventually pay it off, actually care about informing you about how the world works? Like, do you think career debt slavers taught you all privilege and social justice crap, because theyre good people who want to see you cast off the shackles of your oppression?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?

Go right ahead.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?

Go right ahead.

Fascism - in any form - is a lot of pomp and bullshit, but when you strip all the glitter off of it, it's shabby.  Boring.

Right now, we can make choices based on our ability to financially support those choices.  Hardly ideal.  But under fascism, you get choices based on whether you can ingratiate yourself to the sole ruling party, provided you can grease the right officials and kiss the right asses.

It's pretty much the only system available that is worse than what we have, short of outright autocracy (DPRK, etc).

So you are going door-to-door, trying to sell a lump of shit with an Amway-esue "eco-fascist" logo on it.

I had expected better of you.  You seem like a smart guy...And while I know that intelligence alone is no protection from religious thinking, I sort of assumed that the Discordian bit of you would short-circuit the influence of other, more malign cult behavior.

That last bit is *my* fault, because in the last little while, there is ample evidence to the contrary from a lot of people around here.  But still, your product is frankly crap, no matter how jubilant and/or butthurt you are about it.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?

Go right ahead.

Fascism - in any form - is a lot of pomp and bullshit, but when you strip all the glitter off of it, it's shabby.  Boring.

Right now, we can make choices based on our ability to financially support those choices.  Hardly ideal.  But under fascism, you get choices based on whether you can ingratiate yourself to the sole ruling party, provided you can grease the right officials and kiss the right asses.

It's pretty much the only system available that is worse than what we have, short of outright autocracy (DPRK, etc).

So you are going door-to-door, trying to sell a lump of shit with an Amway-esue "eco-fascist" logo on it.

I had expected better of you.  You seem like a smart guy...And while I know that intelligence alone is no protection from religious thinking, I sort of assumed that the Discordian bit of you would short-circuit the influence of other, more malign cult behavior.

That last bit is *my* fault, because in the last little while, there is ample evidence to the contrary from a lot of people around here.  But still, your product is frankly crap, no matter how jubilant and/or butthurt you are about it.

But you see thats the thing. Fascism is whats going to happen. Its unavoidable. Dont tell me you havent noticed the headlines about how Trump proves that "democracy has failed" or "democracy isnt working." Trump, not for you but for the other half of America, is a big boost in legitimacy for the current system. Maybe he can keep things going for awhile, maybe not. If he doesnt, if EVERYONE is suddenly completely disillusioned with Democracy then fascism is not far away.
   It wont call itself fascism, you will likely not even recognize it as fascism, but it will be. You will cheer for it when it comes, all of you, and you ill never call it what it is. Im just ahead of the curve, and Ill recognize what it is when it happens. I want fascism to happen right. If we have to go through a few decades, or even centuries with fascism the least it can do is leave a more habitable earth behind for the future. Thats another advantage of seeing it coming, I plan on getting in on the ground floor.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?

Go right ahead.

Fascism - in any form - is a lot of pomp and bullshit, but when you strip all the glitter off of it, it's shabby.  Boring.

Right now, we can make choices based on our ability to financially support those choices.  Hardly ideal.  But under fascism, you get choices based on whether you can ingratiate yourself to the sole ruling party, provided you can grease the right officials and kiss the right asses.

It's pretty much the only system available that is worse than what we have, short of outright autocracy (DPRK, etc).

So you are going door-to-door, trying to sell a lump of shit with an Amway-esue "eco-fascist" logo on it.

I had expected better of you.  You seem like a smart guy...And while I know that intelligence alone is no protection from religious thinking, I sort of assumed that the Discordian bit of you would short-circuit the influence of other, more malign cult behavior.

That last bit is *my* fault, because in the last little while, there is ample evidence to the contrary from a lot of people around here.  But still, your product is frankly crap, no matter how jubilant and/or butthurt you are about it.

But you see thats the thing. Fascism is whats going to happen. Its unavoidable. Dont tell me you havent noticed the headlines about how Trump proves that "democracy has failed" or "democracy isnt working." Trump, not for you but for the other half of America, is a big boost in legitimacy for the current system. Maybe he can keep things going for awhile, maybe not. If he doesnt, if EVERYONE is suddenly completely disillusioned with Democracy then fascism is not far away.
   It wont call itself fascism, you will likely not even recognize it as fascism, but it will be. You will cheer for it when it comes, all of you, and you ill never call it what it is. Im just ahead of the curve, and Ill recognize what it is when it happens. I want fascism to happen right. If we have to go through a few decades, or even centuries with fascism the least it can do is leave a more habitable earth behind for the future. Thats another advantage of seeing it coming, I plan on getting in on the ground floor.

Never mind, keep preaching.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2016, 03:32:46 PM
You know what the problem is with your message, RP?  Seriously?  No bullshit?

Go right ahead.

Fascism - in any form - is a lot of pomp and bullshit, but when you strip all the glitter off of it, it's shabby.  Boring.

Right now, we can make choices based on our ability to financially support those choices.  Hardly ideal.  But under fascism, you get choices based on whether you can ingratiate yourself to the sole ruling party, provided you can grease the right officials and kiss the right asses.

It's pretty much the only system available that is worse than what we have, short of outright autocracy (DPRK, etc).

So you are going door-to-door, trying to sell a lump of shit with an Amway-esue "eco-fascist" logo on it.

I had expected better of you.  You seem like a smart guy...And while I know that intelligence alone is no protection from religious thinking, I sort of assumed that the Discordian bit of you would short-circuit the influence of other, more malign cult behavior.

That last bit is *my* fault, because in the last little while, there is ample evidence to the contrary from a lot of people around here.  But still, your product is frankly crap, no matter how jubilant and/or butthurt you are about it.

But you see thats the thing. Fascism is whats going to happen. Its unavoidable. Dont tell me you havent noticed the headlines about how Trump proves that "democracy has failed" or "democracy isnt working." Trump, not for you but for the other half of America, is a big boost in legitimacy for the current system. Maybe he can keep things going for awhile, maybe not. If he doesnt, if EVERYONE is suddenly completely disillusioned with Democracy then fascism is not far away.
   It wont call itself fascism, you will likely not even recognize it as fascism, but it will be. You will cheer for it when it comes, all of you, and you ill never call it what it is. Im just ahead of the curve, and Ill recognize what it is when it happens. I want fascism to happen right. If we have to go through a few decades, or even centuries with fascism the least it can do is leave a more habitable earth behind for the future. Thats another advantage of seeing it coming, I plan on getting in on the ground floor.

Never mind, keep preaching.

If you like it or not it is inevitable. It doesnt matter if its shabby, boring, inefficient, it will happen. I just want it to be environmentally friendly.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2016, 04:19:02 PM
I said this in the other thread: When eco becomes the policy thrust upon the government, which will happen regardless of which party is in office. It won't be fascism, and it wont be ordered, and there will be no one thankful for it when it manifests as it is dramatic population reduction and nothing more.

You can call it fascism if you want, but it wont uphold any of the tenants of fascism other then mass death at scale.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 16, 2016, 04:19:02 PM
You can call it fascism if you want, but it wont uphold any of the tenants of fascism other then mass death at scale.

That isnt really a tenant of fascism. And I wholly disagree that this will be thrust on the government. We are already seeing the negative effects of ecological devestation, no one is changing. We get petty changes, carbon taxes that just punt emissions off to poorer countries, banning BPA which just replaces it with even worse shit like Tritan.

Look at shit like this https://www.rt.com/news/172340-dubai-climate-controlled-city/ and tell me they ever plan on stopping. Someday they will eventually be forced to like you said, but it will be too late, it will be desperately trying to patch up the massive irreversible devastation once they finally realize that Climate Domes and Drones wont save them and that they cannot actually eat money.

And population has little to do with it. There is enough on this Earth for every person to live a good life. There isnt enough for everyone to live an industrial life. There isnt enough for everyone to have a pair of nikes and an xbox. But thats what we try to do. We are so insanely dedicated to our miserable poisonous way of life that we would rather see millions of people die than just stop. That we find that more conceivable than giving up cheap electronics and McDonalds.

What youre describing is very likely, it is also a nightmare. We need to work towards the alternative NOW, not later. And it has to be us not the literally satanic Savile and Co reptiles whove taken turning the entire world into a shopping mall as their holy mission in life.

Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 16, 2016, 04:53:28 PM
rt.com.

Jesus fucking wept.

Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:58:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 16, 2016, 04:53:28 PM
rt.com.

Jesus fucking wept.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dubais-domed-climate-controlled-city-is-a-dystopia-waiting-to-happen

http://io9.gizmodo.com/dubai-to-build-the-worlds-first-climate-controlled-city-1601731394

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/08/dubai_announces_huge_domed_city_climate_controlled_gigamall/

Ive noticed you people are obsessed with appealing to authority. Like when I linked to that vid of a Trump supporter being attacked all you had to say was INFOWARS. Does this story being on RT make it less true? Are you saying there ISNT a domed city being built in the UAE? Do you in fact have anything at all to add to this conversation?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2016, 05:15:16 PM
It hasn't started yet because the many single point failures we have created for ourself have not happened yet, we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop and no one will take it seriously until that happens.

I would agree it's a nightmare scenario, but I would also say we have passed the point of no return. I would also disagree that there is enough for everyone to live what I've seen as the modest life. It's simply a numbers game:

With 7 Billion people we as a collective community share the following single point failures
-Energy: Oil production peaked several years ago, we're now mopping up the dregs with hydrophracking which is both a short term solution and artificially deflates oil costs, Saudi claims that there is no downturn because they have maintained the levels of production. In reality we need increased production to sustain things at current levels.
When this falls it wont be Xbox's you need to worry about, it will be the heating, transport infrastructure for food. The transport argument generally deflates anyone who is ready to shout out nuclear when the energy issue is brought up never takes into account that does nothing to mitigate the infrastructural issues. Not to mention the use of agricultural machinery.
The time frame on this one is vague, we don't know when it will run out.
A solution to this is renewable for as much as possible of the infrastructure, batteries for vehicles, reduced air transport, and less reliance on long haul food transport via shipping. It also has a knock on effect on medicine but the other parts will hurt us before that.
Regardless of how much you get in renewable, there simply isn't a way to do it at that scale. It means when this shoe drops you get famine

Medicine: With antibiotics gradually failing and nothing to replace them people will start dying from common infections again. There are two simple solutions to this: reduce the use of antiboitics (used extensively in agriculture, that's two for a famine), or reduce the propagation factor: this is not an area I am hugely knowledgeable but the risk comes in when a virus/bacteria? copies itself, when it incubates in a new person who uses antibiotics it increases its chances of becoming resistant. The only solution to this is find a new antibiotic, or stop people using them in which case again you have megadeaths

The already polluted fish bowl: the icecaps are melting, we passed the critical point of no return on temperature increases, global warming is now a given. The mitigation of the scale of damage we have committed is the best we can hope for. At best you now have a closed system with more energy in it = more volatile storms, rising sea levels and changes to ecological habitat. Best case scenario a few land masses are uninhabitable and we have to shift crop growth around a bit. Worst case is crop failure or reduced yield.

All in all we are likely looking at a massive famine anywhere between 2-20 years away. This will result in automatically reducing the population in a dramatic and rather rapid fashion. Don't expect any kind of fascism to help that be averted, and don't expect a fascist society to be nice and ordered when the shit hits the fan. Starving people don't like to conform.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2016, 05:17:43 PM
Biodomes and closed systems like that work for very small limited groups of people. When they work.
They have a reliance on external maintenance and in a lot of cases food and pumping out of waste.
Again, don't expect starving people to protect you in your bubble, expect them to eat you right as soon as they are done cutting off your breathable air supply.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Junkenstein on November 16, 2016, 05:25:13 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:58:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 16, 2016, 04:53:28 PM
rt.com.

Jesus fucking wept.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dubais-domed-climate-controlled-city-is-a-dystopia-waiting-to-happen

http://io9.gizmodo.com/dubai-to-build-the-worlds-first-climate-controlled-city-1601731394

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/08/dubai_announces_huge_domed_city_climate_controlled_gigamall/

Ive noticed you people are obsessed with appealing to authority. Like when I linked to that vid of a Trump supporter being attacked all you had to say was INFOWARS. Does this story being on RT make it less true? Are you saying there ISNT a domed city being built in the UAE? Do you in fact have anything at all to add to this conversation?

I'm saying that an RT.com articles has unusual levels of opinion disguised and presented as truth. That alone is enough to make me ignore it. When a news source is not credible, it's not a news source. Therefore largely irrelevant.

If I want to read propaganda, I'll read something funnier.


You seem a little upset. Is it because I'm not bothering to read your wall of bullshit and just pointing out obvious reasons to dismiss it?
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 03:29:27 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 05:54:29 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 16, 2016, 04:19:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2016, 12:19:47 AM
Any time you feel like shutting the fuck up, please feel free.

2018 cant come fast enough.
:hitlerbanjo:

:butthurt2:
:drama1:

>butthurt
>winning

Also this should just be pointed out:
Quote
They truly believe this is a legitimate response because to them education is not to be trusted.

The education system is currently selling an entire generation into debt slavery and you think it SHOULD be trusted? Do you honestly think people who make you take out massive loans to pay for a piece of paper that might or might get an actual education with it, in the vain hopes that this piece of paper will let you get a good enough job to eventually pay it off, actually care about informing you about how the world works? Like, do you think career debt slavers taught you all privilege and social justice crap, because theyre good people who want to see you cast off the shackles of your oppression?

:tldr2:
:drama1:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
But I read Faust loud and clear....  :eek: yup..  :vom:

A bit more irony for the RPspag: Selling out your soul and species for absolutely nothing that you hoped to gain. The usual game, new fish.

Well... at least now
I have room for more.
:drama1:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2016, 07:17:24 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
But I read Faust loud and clear....  :eek: yup..  :vom:

A bit more irony for the RPspag: Selling out your soul and species for absolutely nothing that you hoped to gain. The usual game, new fish.

Well... at least now
I have room for more.
:drama1:
Yeah bear in mind, this isn't what I want, its what I fear will happen, unless a miracle happens.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2016, 01:07:47 AM
Quote from: Faust on November 16, 2016, 07:17:24 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
But I read Faust loud and clear....  :eek: yup..  :vom:

A bit more irony for the RPspag: Selling out your soul and species for absolutely nothing that you hoped to gain. The usual game, new fish.

Well... at least now
I have room for more.
:drama1:
Yeah bear in mind, this isn't what I want, its what I fear will happen, unless a miracle happens.
Oh yeah. Faust in your case I've never had a doubt about sincerity. I also understand the very real dangers of systemic failure fairly well and think you're probably all too correct. Any chance of reversing or meaningfully mitigating the trend just went extinct, eventually all we know as life will follow. It's not going to be anything like RP's deluded intent. Just industrial waste and slow collapse until resource wwars go nuclear or worse.

Did you see the new "Fury Road" Road Warrior movie? The protagonist makes a good point about hope being deadly because it makes you do dumb shit like ride into certain doom to avoid a fight that's merely hopeless.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2016, 06:12:01 AM
There are (were) two choices: Take the slow soft population fall by taking measures to reduce consumption, emissions, and population growth, or take the fast hard population fall by hitting our limit and crashing. This is how it works for every other species population on earth, yet we insist on pretending that it can't possibly be true for us.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2016, 06:16:41 AM
I keep looking for a place to click to "like" Faust's posts. Damn Facebook.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 17, 2016, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2016, 05:47:01 AM
I thought this essay was really insightful, and accurately explains why I don't feel any need to let these people into my living room.

http://forsetti.tumblr.com/post/153181757500/on-rural-america-understanding-isnt-the-problem

QuoteIn deep red, white America, the white Christian God is king, figuratively and literally.  Religious fundamentalism is what has shaped most of their belief systems.  Systems built on a fundamentalist framework are not conducive for introspection, questioning, learning, change.  When you have a belief system that is built on fundamentalism, it isn't open to outside criticism, especially by anyone not a member of your tribe and in a position of power.  The problem isn't "coastal elites don't understand rural Americans."  The problem is rural America doesn't understand itself and will NEVER listen to anyone outside their bubble.  It doesn't matter how "understanding" you are, how well you listen, what language you use...if you are viewed as an outsider, your views are automatically discounted.  I've had hundreds of discussions with rural white Americans and whenever I present them any information that contradicts their entrenched beliefs, no matter how sound, how unquestionable, how obvious, they WILL NOT even entertain the possibility it might be true.

That's true of most people to varying extents, only the specific false idol changes - it's not always a religion, belief in anything will do - but the basic behavioral pattern remains the same.

Furthermore, I would ask you why it is ok to dismiss rural America like this, but apparently not the middle east, to which the same points regarding religious fundamentalism apply? If one is garbage then clearly they both must be.

EDIT:
Mark Twain on truth and belief

Quote from: Mark Twain in his essay "What is Man"
And when you know the man's religious complexion, you know what sort of religious books he reads when he wants some more light, and what sort of books he avoids, lest by accident he get more light than he wants. In America if you know which party-collar a voter wears, you know what his associations are, and how he came by his politics, and which breed of newspaper he reads to get light, and which breed he diligently avoids, and which breed of mass-meetings he attends in order to broaden his political knowledge, and which breed of mass-meetings he doesn't attend, except to refute its doctrines with brickbats. We are always hearing of people who are around seeking after truth. I have never seen a (permanent) specimen. I think he had never lived. But I have seen several entirely sincere people who thought they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment—until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. That was the end of the search. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth he sought no further; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors. There have been innumerable Temporary Seekers of Truth—have you ever heard of a permanent one? In the very nature of man such a person is impossible.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Genghis Khan on November 27, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
The wall is now a fence and the beaners arent going to be deported, he also already placed a chosen one to work for him, this election was made only to release the pressure of the burguers so they dont revolt, democracy is a meme.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2016, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: Genghis Khan on November 27, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
The wall is now a fence and the beaners arent going to be deported, he also already placed a chosen one to work for him, this election was made only to release the pressure of the burguers so they dont revolt, democracy is a meme.

I am going to leave this post exactly as it is, without comment.  As I feel commentary can only ruin the effect.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 28, 2016, 02:22:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2016, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: Genghis Khan on November 27, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
The wall is now a fence and the beaners arent going to be deported, he also already placed a chosen one to work for him, this election was made only to release the pressure of the burguers so they dont revolt, democracy is a meme.

I am going to leave this post exactly as it is, without comment.  As I feel commentary can only ruin the effect.

  :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 28, 2016, 04:42:11 PM
That's a perfect note for this thread to end on.
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard on November 29, 2016, 12:20:18 AM
 :flush:
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on December 11, 2016, 06:00:51 PM
At any rate, this thread is predicated on a false premise. Most americans voted against him, and many of the votes for him were the result of Russian interference
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 11, 2016, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on December 11, 2016, 06:00:51 PM
At any rate, this thread is predicated on a false premise. Most americans voted against him,

And in a hypothetical scenario where the presidential election is decided by the popular vote this would matter. This has not been the case for the past 230 years.

Quoteand many of the votes for him were the result of Russian interference

[citation needed]
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on December 12, 2016, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 11, 2016, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on December 11, 2016, 06:00:51 PM
At any rate, this thread is predicated on a false premise. Most americans voted against him,

And in a hypothetical scenario where the presidential election is decided by the pop :horrormirth:ular vote this would matter. This has not been the case for the past 230 years.

Oh, he won the election alright, but the false premise of the thread is that he won over the american people (which he did not) and to a lesser extent that he was democratically elected (he wasn't)

He only won because we have an inherently defective and inherently gerrymandered election system as a result of a couple of long dead assholes pushing some pork barrel legislation over two centuries ago at the constitutional convention.

It's bad enough that we have the senate and that the districts for the house of representatives are arbitrarily made to not cross to state boundries, but this takes the cake.

(if it were up to me we'd have a completely non-regional senate and congressional districts would not be by state, just by whatever shape is necessary for each to give them all as close as possible to exactly the same number of voters, even if it crosses state lines or bisects a city)
Title: Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 12, 2016, 07:45:48 PM
Well at least youre consistent.