What is Chi?

[Kai]

This.


And anyway, if you read the last two links I posted, they claim to have measured near-infrared wavelengths as on of the energy components to Chi/Ki/Qi. I'm not _too_ sure how well controled their experiemtn was, but it was interesting to read about, none the less.

I'm digging up more research now.

Heat? I guess that would make sense. Temperature control is known from Buddhist monks, so it certainly would manipulatable to some extent.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Meh. I think the reason why the term 'Chi' and its corresponding model exists and persists is that it's a useful model for looking at something that otherwise is really hard to model. If it was easy to model in another way, it would be modeled in that way, and not as 'chi'. Why isn't there a good scientific explanation forthcoming that encompasses the whole of it? Probably because, from the point of view of someone who thinks in scientific terms (be they biological, chemical, cognitive-science-based, neurological, quantum physical, mathematical, or even astrological if you swing that way) the phenomenon it describes in its own model would describe in the modelset that the scientist is using a bunch of seemingly totally unrelated things across a bunch of seemingly unrelated subjects, which in the symbolset of whatever model they are using, are totally contradictory.

When you say "what IS chi", what you really mean is "translate the model of 'chi' into the modelset X" where X is whatever modelset you personally subscribe to at the moment, and it probably implies that you think that there's someone else who subscribes to that same model set, who can translate it. I don't know what your modelset is, and I wouldn't want to hazard to guess. Translation will be problematic (though probably not entirely impossible -- just pretty hard to understand) for the same reason that it's hard to describe "oedipal complex" in terms of quantum physics, or describe "formula 1 racing fans" in terms of pharmaceutical biochemsitry. How does one create a drug that cures someone of their love for formula 1 racing without touching anything else? Even extremely close and intimately related fields of study are often pretty hard to translate models between: within genetics, we have both genes and alliles, and alliles are typically spread between genes on unrelated chromosomes -- heredity is related to alliles, but they still can't find how to cure cancer or obesity genetically, despite knowing about several genes that are quite key to those alliles.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Meh. I think the reason why the term 'Chi' and its corresponding model exists and persists is that it's a useful model for looking at something that otherwise is really hard to model. If it was easy to model in another way, it would be modeled in that way, and not as 'chi'. Why isn't there a good scientific explanation forthcoming that encompasses the whole of it? Probably because, from the point of view of someone who thinks in scientific terms (be they biological, chemical, cognitive-science-based, neurological, quantum physical, mathematical, or even astrological if you swing that way) the phenomenon it describes in its own model would describe in the modelset that the scientist is using a bunch of seemingly totally unrelated things across a bunch of seemingly unrelated subjects, which in the symbolset of whatever model they are using, are totally contradictory.

When you say "what IS chi", what you really mean is "translate the model of 'chi' into the modelset X" where X is whatever modelset you personally subscribe to at the moment, and it probably implies that you think that there's someone else who subscribes to that same model set, who can translate it. I don't know what your modelset is, and I wouldn't want to hazard to guess. Translation will be problematic (though probably not entirely impossible -- just pretty hard to understand) for the same reason that it's hard to describe "oedipal complex" in terms of quantum physics, or describe "formula 1 racing fans" in terms of pharmaceutical biochemsitry. How does one create a drug that cures someone of their love for formula 1 racing without touching anything else? Even extremely close and intimately related fields of study are often pretty hard to translate models between: within genetics, we have both genes and alliles, and alliles are typically spread between genes on unrelated chromosomes -- heredity is related to alliles, but they still can't find how to cure cancer or obesity genetically, despite knowing about several genes that are quite key to those alliles.

I think I love you.


In related news, I enjoyed watching 'Timewarp' this week (Discovery Channel show that uses high speed cameras to look at cool stuff). They had a master from one of the eastern fighting styles, using a katana. This started out fine, slice through some straw mats, check out the cool video...

Then he faced off with a sparring partner. He took his sheathed sword, and brought it across his opponents chest. The opponent fell backwards as though he'd been shoved. The scientist on the show said "How did you do that?" The sword weilding dude said "Transference of Energy". The science dude smirked.

This led to the science dude being put on the mat. After a few experiments, they watched the video.

The science dude ended up very confused, because even in slow motion, there was no indication that an 'equal and opposite reaction' was taking place. Even at 3000 fps, it still looked like transfer of energy.

I LOL'd.

[Telarus]

That was Season 1 Ep 7 of time Warp (which I missed  , looking for it right now).

[mininova].org/tor/1986025

for anyone interested.

[Telarus]

Heat? I guess that would make sense. Temperature control is known from Buddhist monks, so it certainly would manipulatable to some extent.

Uuuumm. They claim to have bounced a signal around a 60 degree corner with a mirror, and have used optical-only filters to block Chi signals that aren't blocked by near-infrared and infrared only filters. The wildly fringe-scientific aspect of the experiential setup is that they are using other humans as detection devices (usually blindfolded). I mean, sure, the 5th commandment of the pentabarf crops up here, but it's an interesting read to consider.

[Kai]

The word is allele, and an allele is simply a gene which has at least one other different genotypic sequence or phenotypic response, they are homologous but not identical. Just wanted to point that out.

The video is awesome. This sort of thing is what you hear about.

Telarus: Yeah....humans aren't good measuring devices.

[Kai]

Just a thought: would physics allow for near 100% transfer of kinetic energy between two bodies? Obviously we aren't working in a frictionless environment, but if an object in motion struck an object at rest with the proper relative amount of kinetic energy and at the proper location could the kinetic energy, aside from heat loss be near completely transfered without any other loss of motion besides friction and heat?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

If you're looking for technical biological explanations of measurable psychosomatic phenomenon, I'd recommend the book "The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing" by Ernest Rossi.

It's over my head, and often extremely technical which makes me think you'd get more out of it Kai. I'm less interested in how precisely this may work on a biological level than in the techniques and practical theory. I'd mail you my copy if you'd help break it down for us.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Just a thought: would physics allow for near 100% transfer of kinetic energy between two bodies? Obviously we aren't working in a frictionless environment, but if an object in motion struck an object at rest with the proper relative amount of kinetic energy and at the proper location could the kinetic energy, aside from heat loss be near completely transfered without any other loss of motion besides friction and heat?

Maybe, but I think it would violate netwon's third law.
"the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."

There is no indication that any force went in the opposite direction, and certianly not an 'equal' force.

However, my current favorite theory... is that it works the same way that Faith Healing 'drops' seem to work... that is, they don't use much energy (thus there isn't much energy in the equal and opposite), they simply hit the right spot to place you off balance and allow gravity to do the rest. To the individual being dropped... the shift of gravitational pull might be interpreted by the brain as 'That dude just dropped me'. To everyone watching, it would look like energy transference.

[Telarus]

Just a thought: would physics allow for near 100% transfer of kinetic energy between two bodies? Obviously we aren't working in a frictionless environment, but if an object in motion struck an object at rest with the proper relative amount of kinetic energy and at the proper location could the kinetic energy, aside from heat loss be near completely transfered without any other loss of motion besides friction and heat?

Ok, so here's the thing with linear Chi and circular/spherical Chi.

I throw a linear punch, you swing your arm in for an inside block. The two vectors com in line this -->|, with the arrow being your block and the vert pipe being the vector of my punch (seen from the top). This 'hard style' block would knock my attack at a diagonal vector away from it's target, but a lot of the blocker and some of the attackers energy is lost into the impact (shock absorbed by the flesh, muscular and skeletal sytems) and a little heat.

Compare to circular reaching trapping motions. At contact, the defender's motion is already traveling at a similar vector to the attack, and it just needs to blend, meet, and then exert a little control in order to throw:

[Kai]

Just a thought: would physics allow for near 100% transfer of kinetic energy between two bodies? Obviously we aren't working in a frictionless environment, but if an object in motion struck an object at rest with the proper relative amount of kinetic energy and at the proper location could the kinetic energy, aside from heat loss be near completely transfered without any other loss of motion besides friction and heat?

Maybe, but I think it would violate netwon's third law.
"the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."

There is no indication that any force went in the opposite direction, and certianly not an 'equal' force.

However, my current favorite theory... is that it works the same way that Faith Healing 'drops' seem to work... that is, they don't use much energy (thus there isn't much energy in the equal and opposite), they simply hit the right spot to place you off balance and allow gravity to do the rest. To the individual being dropped... the shift of gravitational pull might be interpreted by the brain as 'That dude just dropped me'. To everyone watching, it would look like energy transference.

Thats my opinion too, that it IS kinetic energy applied in a precise manner.

Its the same way that people can put out candles with flap of their hand or their fist.

[Kai]

Just a thought: would physics allow for near 100% transfer of kinetic energy between two bodies? Obviously we aren't working in a frictionless environment, but if an object in motion struck an object at rest with the proper relative amount of kinetic energy and at the proper location could the kinetic energy, aside from heat loss be near completely transfered without any other loss of motion besides friction and heat?

Ok, so here's the thing with linear Chi and circular/spherical Chi.

I throw a linear punch, you swing your arm in for an inside block. The two vectors com in line this -->|, with the arrow being your block and the vert pipe being the vector of my punch (seen from the top). This 'hard style' block would knock my attack at a diagonal vector away from it's target, but a lot of the blocker and some of the attackers energy is lost into the impact (shock absorbed by the flesh, muscular and skeletal sytems) and a little heat.

Compare to circular reaching trapping motions. At contact, the defender's motion is already traveling at a similar vector to the attack, and it just needs to blend, meet, and then exert a little control in order to throw:

Exactly. In the yielding to the energy of the blow you are able to redirect the the blow. You become the equal and opposite force.

More and more I think Chi is mind-body connection and awareness.

[fomenter]

Thats my opinion too, that it IS kinetic energy applied in a precise manner.

Its the same way that people can put out candles with flap of their hand or their fist.

read that as fap    

[Kai]

If you're looking for technical biological explanations of measurable psychosomatic phenomenon, I'd recommend the book "The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing" by Ernest Rossi.

It's over my head, and often extremely technical which makes me think you'd get more out of it Kai. I'm less interested in how precisely this may work on a biological level than in the techniques and practical theory. I'd mail you my copy if you'd help break it down for us.

Net, You could just lend it to me when I'm in Portland in a month.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

If you're looking for technical biological explanations of measurable psychosomatic phenomenon, I'd recommend the book "The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing" by Ernest Rossi.

It's over my head, and often extremely technical which makes me think you'd get more out of it Kai. I'm less interested in how precisely this may work on a biological level than in the techniques and practical theory. I'd mail you my copy if you'd help break it down for us.

Net, You could just lend it to me when I'm in Portland in a month.

I didn't know you were coming! I'm stoked.

I hope it's not in between the 31st and the 5th of January though, because I'll be in Oakland.

If that's the case I'm sure Nigel could hand it off to you.

You, Telarus, and I could get together for a discussion.

I have a voice recorder too, so we could post or transcribe it for the forums should it be relevant or lulzy.