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A Chaos Marxism Primer

Started by Cramulus, February 15, 2011, 04:17:00 PM

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East Coast Hustle

No matter what is supposedly meant by terms like "magic" and "marxism" and "ego", they lost me when it was revealed as some rinky-dink anti-capitalist neo-revolutionary hogwash.

Anyway, I rather like Capitalism.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Captain Utopia

I don't see it that way, but I (perhaps mistakenly) interpreted the Marxism aspect as a reference to Classical Marxism rather than in the pejorative sense.  The basic concepts do seem to be a tight fit:


  • alienation - the alienation of people from aspects of their "human nature"
  • class consciousness - the awareness, both of itself and of the social world around it, that a social class possesses, and its capacity to act in its own rational interests based on this awareness
  • exploitation - the exploitation of an entire segment or class of society by another
  • ideology - According to Engels, "ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, it is true, but with a false consciousness. The real motive forces impelling him remain unknown to him; otherwise it simply would not be an ideological process. Hence he imagines false or seeming motive forces"

Aren't those some of the core issues we're discussing here?

Doloras LaPicho

#47
Captain U: you don't need to read my blog. Your post sums up everything that I've been trying to explain for the last five years in one post. You get it. I'm trying to unify the forces. Well done.

To some degree, the best thing about using contentious words like "magick" and "Marxism" is to watch people who are supposedly Enlightened Psychonauts Who Think For Themselves have precisely the mass-media-approved kneejerk slogan-regurgitation reaction to them. Perhaps said Enlightened Psychonauts can then recognize that they're having that kind of reaction, and question it. Many have suggested that I use more "neutral" words so as to reach a mass audience, but right now I think I kind of like how deep the dog is buried.

On another topic, certainly some of the Aphorisms are badly written and jargon-encrusted. This is because I wrote some of them up to 5 years ago when I was far less cool than I am now. Also, because I never edit anything on that blog, it's just as it is dictated to my mind by my Holy Guardian Angel or the Space Bankers or whoever. Cram's effort in bringing them into book form will always have that problem of taking a synchronous look at a diachronous reality (or is it the other way around?)

Chaos Marxism - class-struggle politics meets transpersonal psychology meets memetics meets a very odd sense of humour indeed

Cain

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 17, 2011, 01:53:23 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 15, 2011, 05:47:02 PM
I think Chaos Marxism is actually a pretty apt name for it.. Dolores combines marxism and discordia - from my point of view, it's a pretty fresh take on things.


Marxism doesn't work.  There's no point in throwing energy into something that is utterly non-functional.

Marxism =/= Communism (necessarily).

It's a big philosophical camp, with a lot of differing schools.  I'm not too hot on some aspects of Marxism myself (teleology, historicism).  At the same time, Marx himself was one of the few people who actually ever attempted a scientific study of politics and economics, and while his biggest prediction ultimately failed, he discovered some quite interesting things on the way, and others added to them or built on them over time.  Naturally, so did a lot of idiots, but they are easily ignored.

I personally believe Historical Sociology provides better models for periods of historical change (in particular, Charles Tilly and Theda Skocpol) and so probably a better model for predicting the future but it probably would have never developed as a discipline in the first place without the Marxist influence on World-Systems Theory.

LMNO

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on February 17, 2011, 08:42:09 AM
Captain U: you don't need to read my blog. Your post sums up everything that I've been trying to explain for the last five years in one post. You get it. I'm trying to unify the forces. Well done.

To some degree, the best thing about using contentious words like "magick" and "Marxism" is to watch people who are supposedly Enlightened Psychonauts Who Think For Themselves have precisely the mass-media-approved kneejerk slogan-regurgitation reaction to them. Perhaps said Enlightened Psychonauts can then recognize that they're having that kind of reaction, and question it. Many have suggested that I use more "neutral" words so as to reach a mass audience, but right now I think I kind of like how deep the dog is buried.

Gurdjieff is dead.  Time to exhume the dog.

QuoteOn another topic, certainly some of the Aphorisms are badly written and jargon-encrusted. This is because I wrote some of them up to 5 years ago when I was far less cool than I am now. Also, because I never edit anything on that blog, it's just as it is dictated to my mind by my Holy Guardian Angel or the Space Bankers or whoever. Cram's effort in bringing them into book form will always have that problem of taking a synchronous look at a diachronous reality (or is it the other way around?)
With that in mind, do you have any more recent writings that adhere closer to your current style/jargon?  Perhaps that might help.

Placid Dingo

Hey Dolores, since you're here there's a thread you might like called 'We don't do brands' by 000 which might help with the stumbling point of some of the language being accepted. http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=28319.0
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on February 17, 2011, 08:42:09 AM
Captain U: you don't need to read my blog. Your post sums up everything that I've been trying to explain for the last five years in one post. You get it. I'm trying to unify the forces. Well done.

To some degree, the best thing about using contentious words like "magick" and "Marxism" is to watch people who are supposedly Enlightened Psychonauts Who Think For Themselves have precisely the mass-media-approved kneejerk slogan-regurgitation reaction to them. Perhaps said Enlightened Psychonauts can then recognize that they're having that kind of reaction, and question it. Many have suggested that I use more "neutral" words so as to reach a mass audience, but right now I think I kind of like how deep the dog is buried.

On another topic, certainly some of the Aphorisms are badly written and jargon-encrusted. This is because I wrote some of them up to 5 years ago when I was far less cool than I am now. Also, because I never edit anything on that blog, it's just as it is dictated to my mind by my Holy Guardian Angel or the Space Bankers or whoever. Cram's effort in bringing them into book form will always have that problem of taking a synchronous look at a diachronous reality (or is it the other way around?)



OK... So rereading the material leaves me with some other thoughts now.

I get the general idea (I think) that you're proposing. I'm not sure that I agree with that idea, but we'll leave that bit alone for a minute.

My initial problem lies in a bit of ConFusion as it were... on the one hand, your writing reminds me a lot of Bob's view that 'the only thing I believe is that the Universe is far more complex than I will ever understand'.  Several of your Aphorisms seem to support the view and its a view I agree with so that's easy enough. However, on the other hand, the meat of your writing tends to feel more like "I Know Whats Up and So Should You".

If we are "liv[ing] according to "consensus realities" - the totems of [our] particular tribe", is Chaos Marxism not simply an expression of your tribal totems? I mean bully for not being in the Consumerism Cult, but what makes the Discordian Tribe Totems not equally flawed? I say this because some of the things you say, appear stated as fact, when I'm relatively certain that, at least some of it might be conjecture at best. For example:


  • Creativity does not come from the ego, but from some other part of the psyche outside consensus reality.
  • Psychic disturbance comes from the ego squishing down the other parts of the psyche in response to its own survival objectives
  • Mental illness we can say comes from another, worse world existing concurrently with that of consensus reality.

These are very interesting statements, but I can't help but see them as tribal beliefs, rather than scientific fact ("There is only one physical reality, and only one real scientific understanding of why the world of human beings is the way it is"). This seems somewhat inconsistent to me.

Also, I feel a tendency toward an "Us vs. Them" kind of situation. Us being the enlightened Chaos Marxists who Know The Right Way To Fix This, vs Them the Capitalist Pig Dogs that want to destroy the world. Not only does that seem to be a clear tribal argument, it also seems to give us a Damned Thing which now has a Label.

QuoteEvery ideology is a mental murder, a reduction of dynamic living processes to static classifications, and every classification is a Damnation, just as every inclusion is an exclusion. In a busy, buzzing universe where no two snow flakes are identical, and no two trees are identical, and no two people are identical- and, indeed, the smallest sub-atomic particle, we are assured, is not even identical with itself from one microsecond to the next- every card-index system is a delusion.
-H. C.

How is "He is a Capitalist and therefore trying to destroy the world" any different than "He is a Jew and secretly controls all the money", "He is a Muslim and is a terrorist", "He is a Man and therefore a Pig"?

I'm not even sure its Capitalism that should be getting the poke here as much as its Consumerism... but maybe that's just a word game.

QuoteIt is for this reason that even the more rigorously scientific, materialist analysis of human culture will be incomplete, because it cannot understand art, creativity, religion, madness etc. by its very nature.

Those who really want to bring goodness into this world have to fuse science and spirituality, as Aleister Crowley said. "Science" in the sense of we have to understand on a physical, rational basis how humanity really works; "spirituality" because we have to accept that humans are not and can never be 100% rational, and indeed so much of what is truly glorious about our species-being works by non-rational rules.

"New Atheism" is particularly pernicious because it seeks to demolish belief in "God" (i.e. a supra-human consciousness), but by default leaves all the totems of the currently dominant tribe (Consume Mass Quantities, Have A Good Time All Of The Time, We Are The Superior Culture And Deserve To Own The Planet And Tell Everyone Else What To Do) alone, because they're not "God" in the way that they understand it.

I think this is an excellent way to assess the gap between hippy dippy spiritualism and hard core materialism... I like it a lot.

On the topic of individuality, I like some of what you're saying... but I'm not sure how I feel about the conclusion. On the one hand, it can be extremely beneficial to put the ego in the back seat while you play with a larger group of people to reach a specific goal. Anonymous, as you point out on your blog is a good example of that. However, knowing some of the people in 'Anonymous', while somebunal of their attacks/work/hacks/etc get attributed to the Hive, the hive is not without its own individual egos... nor do they eschew their own ego in their other work/hacks/games. Yet, from what I've read of Chaos Marxism thus far, it would require far more than the partial ego-lessness that we see with Anonymous. Honestly, most of the Anon folks I know (most black hats I know) see themselves as Individuals... they see themselves as individually choosing a different path, a road less traveled. To use anon as a basis to conclude that "we don't need to be individuals" seems kinda reaching.

In fact, that single concept is probably the one I like the least about Chaos Marxism. I think that individuality is not only desirable, but absolutely necessary for the evolution of our species, socially, psychologically and indeed physically. As Hagbard said above, all of us are unique, maybe not unique wonderful awesome snowflakes... but unique nonetheless. Giving up individuality would mean giving up the ability to "Think For Yourself". How would science progress, if not for the individaul scientist considering old information in a new way, or correlating new ideas that have not been matched up before?

What I have read feels inconsistent to me, based on how I'm understanding it. Can you clairfy some of this for me?

Thanks,
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn

POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

The Good Reverend Roger

Who the fuck is a psychonaut?

Not me.

Use a word that has a distinct meaning, and you'll get distinct responses.  And there was no "knee jerk" required.  I've examined Marxism from asshole to breakfast, and it simply doesn't work.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 17, 2011, 05:38:09 PM
Who the fuck is a psychonaut?

Not me.

Use a word that has a distinct meaning, and you'll get distinct responses.  And there was no "knee jerk" required.  I've examined Marxism from asshole to breakfast, and it simply doesn't work.

Psychonaut has a distinct meaning. It generally refers to individuals that explore or experiment with their own psyche. That includes people that do 'self-mindfucks', 'magick' (ala the kind we generally agree exists), NLP, brainwave experiments, meditation etc etc and (depending on the purpose etc) various drug experiments (ala Aldous Huxley).

The term has been around since the 70's and Pete Carroll wrote a book with that title in the early 80's, it shows up in a lot of material from the 'RAW" collection of favorites.


- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Ratatosk on February 17, 2011, 05:43:57 PM

Psychonaut has a distinct meaning. It generally refers to individuals that explore or experiment with their own psyche.

Well, that leaves me out.  It's fucking filthy in there, and I wouldn't poke around in it without a fill environment suit, 6 condoms, and BIG RED STRAPS.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

It must be opposite day, because Rat's critique of Dolores is something I can get behind.  Beneath the poetic language, easily dismissed, there appear to be flaws in the presentation.

Cramulus

It might be useful for me to be a little bit more explicit about my goals

I am interested in looking at these ideas from a pragmatic lens.. There are a number of correspondences between Doloras' work and what I perceive to be the collective goals of PDCOM or discordians in general. Speaking as a mother, I sense that Dolores has the same energy that made me kick off PosterGASM and Intermittens, and the same energy that fueled some of you cats to want to create the PD06 (eventually the BIP). I'd like to capture the parts of this philosophy that resonate with people here and will be useful in crafting "What's Next" for our little Discordian Society.

I'm sure we could very quickly fill up a thread titled "Reasons to Dismiss Chaos Marxism" - or reasons to dismiss anything for that matter - but we're getting away from what I feel could be a productive and useful discussion for us.

LMNO

You're looking to scavenge the good bits?  I can get behind that.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Cramulus on February 17, 2011, 06:31:38 PM
It might be useful for me to be a little bit more explicit about my goals

I am interested in looking at these ideas from a pragmatic lens.. There are a number of correspondences between Doloras' work and what I perceive to be the collective goals of PDCOM or discordians in general. Speaking as a mother, I sense that Dolores has the same energy that made me kick off PosterGASM and Intermittens, and the same energy that fueled some of you cats to want to create the PD06 (eventually the BIP). I'd like to capture the parts of this philosophy that resonate with people here and will be useful in crafting "What's Next" for our little Discordian Society.

I'm sure we could very quickly fill up a thread titled "Reasons to Dismiss Chaos Marxism" - or reasons to dismiss anything for that matter - but we're getting away from what I feel could be a productive and useful discussion for us.

Well as I said above, I very much like the succinct commentary on the issue with fundamentalist materialism vs hippy dippy spiritualism. I thought it was well worded.  And she certianly has a lot of energy, lots of detailed essays and thoughts collected there.

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Ok, the first thing I feel the need to do is parse out the "you are not a unique snowflake" meme with the concept of "individual".

I've always taken the meme to be shorthand for, "You do not get special rules.  You are made up of the same stuff as everyone else.  Universe does not take you into account when making plans.  Nature is allowed to kill you.  You are a monkey, just the same as the rest of us."

However, I've taken that as a starting point.  "You are not special" does not preclude "You are an individual".  After realizing that you're just another monkey at the zoo, then it's up to you to create the differences.  Any differences between you and some spag on the street are not Cosmic Blessings, they're ENTIRELY YOUR OWN CREATION.

In short, don't wait around for Universe to give you what you need.  Go out and fucking take it.