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Rev Roger, Welcome to the Monkeyhouse #6: Walking With the King

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, February 24, 2009, 12:06:23 AM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 03:04:23 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2009, 07:46:58 PM
Quote from: Felix on March 01, 2009, 06:43:58 PM
Quote from: yhnmzw on March 01, 2009, 09:06:34 AM
What part of Jefferson is actually lacking then, even after accounting for tradeoffs?

He was a misogynist, racist backstabber.  Lrn2book.

Yes, because it's always good to talk about people based on current cultural references.  Also, people who fail to go from complete barbarism to utter enlightenment in one (1) generation are by definition assholes of the first water.   Jefferson took the world forward one HUGE fucking step, but because he didn't end at today's standards, nothing he did was worth a shit.

For our next exercise, we'll discuss why nobody should listen to Isaac Newton.

For fuck's sake.

Lrn2book, my fucking diseased ass.  LRN TO HAVE A SENSE OF HISTORY AND PROPORTION.  UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Did you read the part where I posted

Quote from: Felix on March 01, 2009, 06:24:32 AM
The Founders weren't perfect, but compared to Jefferson we ain't shit.

?

Tl;dr, I know the things you are telling me.

Then I suppose we should end the conversation.

Let's recap:  All of history's heroes are blackguards and phonies, and should be reviled as utterly useless.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

I think we should, because I'm getting tired of having my posts picked apart for making petty errors.

Let's recap:  You're intentionally misinterpreting me and it's not that amusing.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 03:39:38 AM
I think we should, because I'm getting tired of having my posts picked apart for making petty errors.

Let's recap:  You're intentionally misinterpreting me and it's not that amusing.

Um...Not sure how I could be misinterpreting this:

Quote from: YouHe was a misogynist, racist backstabber.  Lrn2book.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 03:54:51 AM
Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 03:39:38 AM
I think we should, because I'm getting tired of having my posts picked apart for making petty errors.

Let's recap:  You're intentionally misinterpreting me and it's not that amusing.

Um...Not sure how I could be misinterpreting this:

Quote from: YouHe was a misogynist, racist backstabber.  Lrn2book.

Out of it's context, it's a completely ignorant and reactionary statement, but it was in response to yhnmzw asking:

Quote from: yhnmzw on March 01, 2009, 09:06:34 AMWhat part of Jefferson is actually lacking then, even after accounting for tradeoffs?

I was trying to illustrate that despite the imperfections of the past, great advances in civilization were made, and can be furthered because of their work.  Perhaps I wasn't clear on that.

So you can kind of see why that pissed me off.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 04:02:06 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 03:54:51 AM
Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 03:39:38 AM
I think we should, because I'm getting tired of having my posts picked apart for making petty errors.

Let's recap:  You're intentionally misinterpreting me and it's not that amusing.

Um...Not sure how I could be misinterpreting this:

Quote from: YouHe was a misogynist, racist backstabber.  Lrn2book.

Out of it's context, it's a completely ignorant and reactionary statement, but it was in response to yhnmzw asking:

Quote from: yhnmzw on March 01, 2009, 09:06:34 AMWhat part of Jefferson is actually lacking then, even after accounting for tradeoffs?

I was trying to illustrate that despite the imperfections of the past, great advances in civilization were made, and can be furthered because of their work.  Perhaps I wasn't clear on that.

So you can kind of see why that pissed me off.

Well, you haven't actually proved any of the above.

Misogynist, for example?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

Backstabber: Abigail Adams' letter regarding his underhanded use of libel by proxy, generating the famous line about the sword that cut asunder the Gordian knot of friendship.
http://www.familytales.org/dbDisplay.php?id=ltr_aba3453

Racist:  Notes on the State of Virginia Query 14: Jefferson advanced his suspicion that black people were inferior to white people "in the endowments both of body and mind." 

Misogyny is kind of hard to prove, he really kept a lid on his personal life.  But Kukla's book seems to make a case for it.
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/44001.html


Template

Godfuckingdamnit.

I meant "What GOOD part of Jefferson do we lack in the current era?" ie, HOW CAN WE DO JEFFERSONIAN-CLASS GOOD WITHOUT CLONING THE FUCKER OR STEALING HIM FROM HISTORY?

or

???

Template

I'm mad at myself, too.  Posting at the wrong hours or otherwise failing to get my point across.

Re-try:

Quote from: Felix on March 01, 2009, 06:24:32 AM
The Founders weren't perfect, but compared to Jefferson we ain't shit.

How might we become said positive shit?
What needs emulation, that we all dismiss or fail at?

Can we even identify specificities or generalities that we can improve in ourselves or a chosen proxy or avatar?

Jasper

I'm not sure I have a complete answer for you, and I'm a bit tired,

However:  If I wanted to continue in Jefferson's footsteps,

I'd stop hiding behind freedom,

and start standing in front of it,

to protect it for other people.

Requia ☣

Stop giving pretty speeches, actually fucking *do* shit instead, occasionally write something that reshapes western culture..
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

The Good Reverend Roger

#85
Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 04:34:59 AM
Backstabber: Abigail Adams' letter regarding his underhanded use of libel by proxy, generating the famous line about the sword that cut asunder the Gordian knot of friendship.
http://www.familytales.org/dbDisplay.php?id=ltr_aba3453

Racist:  Notes on the State of Virginia Query 14: Jefferson advanced his suspicion that black people were inferior to white people "in the endowments both of body and mind." 

Misogyny is kind of hard to prove, he really kept a lid on his personal life.  But Kukla's book seems to make a case for it.
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/44001.html



1.  Oh, the wife of his enemy got pissed, because he pardoned a man (Callendar) who said mean things about her husband (and thus violated the Alien and Sedition Acts, which Jefferson quite correctly found to be an abomination, constitutionally).  My bad, that's a perfectly credible source.  The bastard should have rotted in prison for saying that Adams was a jackass.  That's what America is all about.  Backstabber, my ass.

2.  Yeah...he probably believed that...Along with EVERY OTHER WHITE PERSON OF HIS DAY AND AGE (see my above post concerning current cultural standards).  He wasn't perfect by today's standards, so he must be a complete shit.

3.  Uh huh.  He was a private man, so Kukla can just infer any old thing he likes.  Sounds reasonable.

So, we've agreed the man had feet of clay...So let's rip them off and beat his head in with them.  Because, you know, there's probably no reason people are pushing the idea that we should discredit people like Jefferson and Madison...I mean, it's not like if the American people devalue them, they'll devalue their ideas, right?  Right right right?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Requia on March 02, 2009, 09:11:40 AM
Stop giving pretty speeches, actually fucking *do* shit instead, occasionally write something that reshapes western culture..

:lulz:

All Jefferson really did was give pretty speeches and write rants (The DoI, for example, was just a huge bitch list).  Same with Thomas Paine.  It's not just the ideas and the abilities to write them (though they are critical), it's the times you live in.  You bitch and you holler and you throw shit against the wall, and hope something sticks.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Honey

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 12:16:41 PM
Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 04:34:59 AM
Backstabber: Abigail Adams' letter regarding his underhanded use of libel by proxy, generating the famous line about the sword that cut asunder the Gordian knot of friendship.
http://www.familytales.org/dbDisplay.php?id=ltr_aba3453

Racist:  Notes on the State of Virginia Query 14: Jefferson advanced his suspicion that black people were inferior to white people "in the endowments both of body and mind." 

Misogyny is kind of hard to prove, he really kept a lid on his personal life.  But Kukla's book seems to make a case for it.
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/44001.html



1.  Oh, the wife of his enemy got pissed, because he pardoned a man (Callendar) who said mean things about her husband (and thus violated the Alien and Sedition Acts, which Jefferson quite correctly found to be an abomination, constitutionally).  My bad, that's a perfectly credible source.  The bastard should have rotted in prison for saying that Adams was a jackass.  That's what America is all about.  Backstabber, my ass.

2.  Yeah...he probably believed that...Along with EVERY OTHER WHITE PERSON OF HIS DAY AND AGE (see my above post concerning current cultural standards).  He wasn't perfect by today's standards, so he must be a complete shit.

3.  Uh huh.  He was a private man, so Kukla can just infer any old thing he likes.  Sounds reasonable.

So, we've agreed the man had feet of clay...So let's rip them off and beat his head in with them.  Because, you know, there's probably no reason people are pushing the idea that we should discredit people like Jefferson and Madison...I mean, it's not like if the American people devalue them, they'll devalue their ideas, right?  Right right right?

Right! (I think) & How Whiggish?  It's not like this hasn't been done (a bunch of times) already?

QuotePresentism is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas and perspectives are anachronistically introduced into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter.

The Oxford English Dictionary gives the first citation for presentism in its historiographic sense from 1916, and the word may have been in use in this meaning as early as the 1870s. Historian David Hackett Fischer identifies presentism as a logical fallacy also known as the "fallacy of nunc pro tunc". He has written that the "classic example" of presentism was the so-called "Whig history", in which certain eighteenth- and nineteenth-century British historians wrote history in a way that used the past to validate their own political beliefs. This interpretation was presentist because it did not depict the past in objective historical context, but instead viewed history only through the lens of contemporary Whig beliefs. In this kind of approach, which emphasizes the relevance of history to the present, things which do not seem relevant receive little attention, resulting in a misleading portrayal of the past. "Whig history" or "whiggishness" are often used as synonyms for presentism, particularly when the historical depiction in question is teleological or triumphalist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)
Fuck the status quo!

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure & the intelligent are full of doubt.
-Bertrand Russell

Jasper

Despite my saying that Jefferson was great, and despite my trying to explain that I'm not just tearing him apart out of some sense of modern ethics, you still act like I'm saying he was a no good shit. 

Why are you misrepresenting my argument?  I can understand doing it to stupid bastards like DK, but I thought we were somewhat friendlier.

Aufenthatt

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Was Jefferson really that much of a step forward?

The fact that you can ask that without being arrested says "yes".

Elaborate

Considering that he just followed increasingly popular ideas in Europe