News:

It is our goal to harrass and harangue you ever further toward our own incoherent brand of horse-laugh radicalism.

Main Menu

Rev Roger, Welcome to the Monkeyhouse #6: Walking With the King

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, February 24, 2009, 12:06:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Template

Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 02, 2009, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Was Jefferson really that much of a step forward?

The fact that you can ask that without being arrested says "yes".

Elaborate

Considering that he just followed increasingly popular ideas in Europe

There is no crime here analogous to being against the revolution -- as existed in post-Revolution France, Russia, still in place somewhere, my current knowledge trails off...

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 05:22:18 PM
Despite my saying that Jefferson was great, and despite my trying to explain that I'm not just tearing him apart out of some sense of modern ethics, you still act like I'm saying he was a no good shit. 

Why are you misrepresenting my argument?  I can understand doing it to stupid bastards like DK, but I thought we were somewhat friendlier.

Sorry, my hate is totally out of control these days.  I apologize.

That being said, it just gets a little old seeing what Honey has posted the name to:  Presentism.

But again, I apologize for losing my mind over it.  I shall go vent some of this on republicansinglesonline.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 02, 2009, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Was Jefferson really that much of a step forward?

The fact that you can ask that without being arrested says "yes".

Elaborate

Considering that he just followed increasingly popular ideas in Europe

Well, of course.  You could just walk up to the King of France, Russia, or England and tell them to eat a dick, and you'd be fine.

How silly of me.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Honey on March 02, 2009, 01:06:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 12:16:41 PM
Quote from: Felix on March 02, 2009, 04:34:59 AM
Backstabber: Abigail Adams' letter regarding his underhanded use of libel by proxy, generating the famous line about the sword that cut asunder the Gordian knot of friendship.
http://www.familytales.org/dbDisplay.php?id=ltr_aba3453

Racist:  Notes on the State of Virginia Query 14: Jefferson advanced his suspicion that black people were inferior to white people "in the endowments both of body and mind." 

Misogyny is kind of hard to prove, he really kept a lid on his personal life.  But Kukla's book seems to make a case for it.
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/44001.html



1.  Oh, the wife of his enemy got pissed, because he pardoned a man (Callendar) who said mean things about her husband (and thus violated the Alien and Sedition Acts, which Jefferson quite correctly found to be an abomination, constitutionally).  My bad, that's a perfectly credible source.  The bastard should have rotted in prison for saying that Adams was a jackass.  That's what America is all about.  Backstabber, my ass.

2.  Yeah...he probably believed that...Along with EVERY OTHER WHITE PERSON OF HIS DAY AND AGE (see my above post concerning current cultural standards).  He wasn't perfect by today's standards, so he must be a complete shit.

3.  Uh huh.  He was a private man, so Kukla can just infer any old thing he likes.  Sounds reasonable.

So, we've agreed the man had feet of clay...So let's rip them off and beat his head in with them.  Because, you know, there's probably no reason people are pushing the idea that we should discredit people like Jefferson and Madison...I mean, it's not like if the American people devalue them, they'll devalue their ideas, right?  Right right right?

Right! (I think) & How Whiggish?  It's not like this hasn't been done (a bunch of times) already?

QuotePresentism is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas and perspectives are anachronistically introduced into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter.

The Oxford English Dictionary gives the first citation for presentism in its historiographic sense from 1916, and the word may have been in use in this meaning as early as the 1870s. Historian David Hackett Fischer identifies presentism as a logical fallacy also known as the "fallacy of nunc pro tunc". He has written that the "classic example" of presentism was the so-called "Whig history", in which certain eighteenth- and nineteenth-century British historians wrote history in a way that used the past to validate their own political beliefs. This interpretation was presentist because it did not depict the past in objective historical context, but instead viewed history only through the lens of contemporary Whig beliefs. In this kind of approach, which emphasizes the relevance of history to the present, things which do not seem relevant receive little attention, resulting in a misleading portrayal of the past. "Whig history" or "whiggishness" are often used as synonyms for presentism, particularly when the historical depiction in question is teleological or triumphalist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)


Thank you.  I was unaware there was a word for it.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

True enough about it being ignorant to characterize historical figures in a modern frame of thought.  I hate to think of how stupid all of this would look in 300 years of relative progress.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Felix on March 03, 2009, 01:48:13 AM
True enough about it being ignorant to characterize historical figures in a modern frame of thought.  I hate to think of how stupid all of this would look in 300 years of relative progress.

"Stay away from the ruins of the Old Ones, kid.  They're haunted."
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 03, 2009, 01:49:16 AM
Quote from: Felix on March 03, 2009, 01:48:13 AM
True enough about it being ignorant to characterize historical figures in a modern frame of thought.  I hate to think of how stupid all of this would look in 300 years of relative progress.

"Stay away from the ruins of the Old Ones, kid.  They're haunted."


Considering I fully intend to get digital copies of myself, that can probably be arranged. :twisted:

Requia ☣

Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 02, 2009, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Was Jefferson really that much of a step forward?

The fact that you can ask that without being arrested says "yes".

Elaborate

Considering that he just followed increasingly popular ideas in Europe

Jefferson, and not just Jefferson, but that entire lot, did one big thing the fuckers in europe never did.  They followed through.  Maybe not 100%, but the American revolution is the only violent uprising I know of where the leaders actually allowed democracy to exist on the first go.  Usually these things end badly, or at best, require a second violent uprising to toss out the assholes who promised democracy or communism or whatever it is the people think they want.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Requia on March 03, 2009, 03:11:31 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 02, 2009, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 02, 2009, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Was Jefferson really that much of a step forward?

The fact that you can ask that without being arrested says "yes".

Elaborate

Considering that he just followed increasingly popular ideas in Europe

Jefferson, and not just Jefferson, but that entire lot, did one big thing the fuckers in europe never did.  They followed through.  Maybe not 100%, but the American revolution is the only violent uprising I know of where the leaders actually allowed democracy to exist on the first go.  Usually these things end badly, or at best, require a second violent uprising to toss out the assholes who promised democracy or communism or whatever it is the people think they want.

Voltaire:  Talker.

The Founders:  Punch you inna face and seize their rights.  What now, bitch, what now?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Honey

Quote from: Felix on March 03, 2009, 01:48:13 AM
True enough about it being ignorant to characterize historical figures in a modern frame of thought.  I hate to think of how stupid all of this would look in 300 years of relative progress.

I just wanted to note that I did not believe what you were doing itt could be characterized as being ignorant.  I believe critical thought about these things is important.  However, if you're going to think about these things, you have to consider the time (the past) as part of the frame.  My pet peeve about these types of things is that many times the people presenting these views are doing it in with a "bread & circuses" kind of political agenda.  It obfuscates some of the more important issues revealed in favor of providing "entertainment" value, like a "bait & switch" trick.  Meanwhile the more important issues are forgotten.

Quote... Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
Fuck the status quo!

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure & the intelligent are full of doubt.
-Bertrand Russell

Requia ☣

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 24, 2009, 04:12:36 AM
Quote from: KC on February 24, 2009, 04:11:10 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 24, 2009, 01:11:59 AM
If they were given a minute to catch their breath, they'd tar and feather everyone on Capitol Hill, and then go rampaging across the mall towards the White House, wearing Scalia's face for a hat.

If anybody skins Scalia's face from his still screaming body and wears it as a hat before me there will be hell to pay.

I thought of it first, fucker.   :argh!:

If this ever happens, I want Dick Durbin's tongue.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Requia ☣

Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Rumckle

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 24, 2009, 12:17:36 AM
FUCK HIM, TOO!   :argh!:

TGRR,
Slamming another cappuccino and watching the the sparkly things in front of my eyes.

:lulz:

now that Lumberjim deleted his posts, this is delightfully hilarious.
It's not trolling, it's just satire.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 03, 2009, 01:49:16 AM
Quote from: Felix on March 03, 2009, 01:48:13 AM
True enough about it being ignorant to characterize historical figures in a modern frame of thought.  I hate to think of how stupid all of this would look in 300 years of relative progress.

"Stay away from the ruins of the Old Ones, kid.  They're haunted."


This is exactly why I'm pissed that the demolished the cooling towers at Trojan. For fuck's sake, that would have been a really great spooky relic.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Jasper

That just gave me an idea.  Take some land, turn it into a national preserve, and build a bunch of spooky ruins in it.  You could hide treasure and charge admission.