Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Principia Discussion => Topic started by: barumunk on January 18, 2008, 08:25:27 am

Title: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: barumunk on January 18, 2008, 08:25:27 am
Quote
Philip K. Dick's "Black Iron Prison", the state of existence in which we all exist until we are able to undergo "anamnesis", the loss of forgetfulness and experience to the concept of gnosis, or completeness. This cosmology, which is based on early Christian gnostic thinking was outlined in his novel "Valis".

For Dick the opposite of the "Black Iron Prison" is the "Palm Tree Garden".

... is it the opposite, or the inverse  (meaning the same thing) ????
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: barumunk on January 18, 2008, 08:35:42 am
There’s this one scene in a Simpson’s episode [...]. It features Snake, the stereotypical criminal, in the exercise yard at a minimum security prison. Homer drives by in Snake’s old sports-car, which he bought at a police auction, and which he’s now abusing quite badly. Hearing this, Snake decides to escape and rescue his car. He walks to the gate, and opens it and walks out. It’s unlocked. All it has was a sign that says “NO ESCAPING PLEASE” on it. Snake exclaims: “Screw the honor system! My car needs me!” and runs off. Kearney, who is working out nearby in the exercise yard sees this and yells out: “Hey, you’re ruining it for the rest of us!”

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/05/29/the-minimum-security-black-iron-prison/
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 01:25:54 pm
in answer to your posts:

1.  We totally ripped the BIP phrase off of PKD.  However, we took it in a different direction.  If you are going to use Phil's metaphor, please refer to it as BIPPKD.

 :lol:

2.  Great scene. 
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: barumunk on January 18, 2008, 01:35:43 pm
yeah i realized the phase is from there (wasnt "pointng that out" ) :D , but i was wonderin if his "Palm tree garden" would be a similar concept to the Golden Sphere of Possibility idea?

but as you said, you took it in another direction... (not just elaborated/fleshed out???)

sorry maybe im just thinking aloud :D
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 02:01:14 pm
Well, I don't think PTG would be the GSP, because it's a metaphor for exactly the same thing as the BIP.

Now, if you want to posit that the PTG is just another way of looking at the BIPPKD, then you may have something there.  But you're gonna need more supporting evidence.  And no, blogs don't count.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: barumunk on January 18, 2008, 02:18:23 pm
hahahahahaha
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 04:07:08 pm
I think the main difference between the PKD philosophy and the current incarnation of the BiP here appears to me as one of optimism. PKD, you see, seems to think we can escape the BiP. Many of the comments and discussions around here seem to posit that breaking out of the Prison, just leads to a slightly different, maybe larger prison cell. "You can break out any time you want, but you can never leave" sort of thing. The GSP, from what I understand might be described as a more absurdist and silly interpretation of that same philosophical viewpoint.

Personally, I disagree with that theory (and I'm sure many others might disagree with how I perceive the philosophical concept, or disagree with the concept whole cloth). For me, the BiP and the Curse of Greyface are very similar... as the restriction of one's single view of reality, or maybe an inability to understand disorder as well as they understand order. While I agree that we are never fully free of the Curse or the Prison, I do think that once we begin manipulating our own perceptions and realize that our view of reality appears as AN interpretation rather than Truth anf Fact... we escape the Black Iron Prison and we throw off the Curse of Greyface. Not that I think we ever gain total freedom... but escaping the BiP seems like escaping Chapel Perilous... you can escape, but you often end up back inside at some point.

However, thats the way of models and maps and metaphors... they're all true in some sense, false in some sense and meaningless in some sense, no? ;-)
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 04:10:24 pm
Rat, what I find interesting is that the way you see the BIP is the same way I (and probably others) do as well.  Your perceptions will always be limited, but you can change that perception at will, if you so choose.

Though you don't explicitly say it, it sounds like you think we're heading towards "You're in prison.  Give up."  But that's really not where we're going, I think.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 04:44:10 pm
Rat, what I find interesting is that the way you see the BIP is the same way I (and probably others) do as well.  Your perceptions will always be limited, but you can change that perception at will, if you so choose.

Yeah, I don't think I'm alone in that view.
Quote
Though you don't explicitly say it, it sounds like you think we're heading towards "You're in prison.  Give up."  But that's really not where we're going, I think.

I don't think that's quite what I meant, I don't think anyone here is advocating giving up. Just a difference in what some of us may see on the other side of the bars, more bars or freedom? I think it also depends on what we consider the BiP to represent. Is it the human condition of ''reality tunnels" which we're all stuck with, or is it only the basic human condition which doesn't realize that 'reality tunnels'... Once you start playing with perceptions, I think you escape... but maybe I'm too damned optimistic ;-)
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 04:52:21 pm
Well, I guess it depends on what you call "freedom" in this sense.

When taking the Chaos = order+disorder metaphor into account, I'm not sure that [freedom as total lack of constraint] from the BIP is really that beneficial, or even useful.

As yet another tortured metaphor, if we applied [freedom as total lack of constraint] to writing, then frwpeiqw;ceiw02ir30cnasdacow3!

Moving through this universe demands imposing limitations and making judgements about things.  That's your prison.  But that doesn't mean you always have to make the same limitations and judgements; that's your jailbreak.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 05:00:56 pm
Well, I guess it depends on what you call "freedom" in this sense.

When taking the Chaos = order+disorder metaphor into account, I'm not sure that [freedom as total lack of constraint] from the BIP is really that beneficial, or even useful.

As yet another tortured metaphor, if we applied [freedom as total lack of constraint] to writing, then frwpeiqw;ceiw02ir30cnasdacow3!

Moving through this universe demands imposing limitations and making judgements about things.  That's your prison.  But that doesn't mean you always have to make the same limitations and judgements; that's your jailbreak.

I guess thats the point we disagree on... I perceive that the Prison is the trap of thinking that your view of reality is THE view of reality. Once you're free of the Curse of Greyface, once you've begun using neuro-plasticity to manipulate your perceptions, I think you've escaped to something else. Even if my new reality tunnel (or tunnels) have some limitations, I can play with each of them "ordering and disordering". That I think is being free of the BiP.

Sure we still have to make decisions and impose limits to the data we take in at any given point in time., but if the limits are self-imposed, if we accept that the judgments are tentative perhaps even arbitrary... are we really imprisoned?

Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 05:14:32 pm
secdn3o8k3 ca389, 2nmsd;r as;elmvc wemc0eime3 cwe vgapq,r s[aelfc 8 an 3onac wecz08n asciawe i3 0ca78amac ia0adkw33 jaskna3w-acm@
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 05:38:36 pm
secdn3o8k3 ca389, 2nmsd;r as;elmvc wemc0eime3 cwe vgapq,r s[aelfc 8 an 3onac wecz08n asciawe i3 0ca78amac ia0adkw33 jaskna3w-acm@

What jail exists where I can bend the bars,
break them,
fake them,
Or make them anew?

What jail exists where I can choose my view,
my doors,
my bunk
and my cell mates too?

If the Black Iron Prison is putty in my hands,
what sort of prison could it have been?
What sort of inmates get to tear it apart
and then get to build it again?

Am I imprisoned if I choose to sleep
in a cell for a night or so?
Or if no guard stops me from leaving my pen
when I should decide to go?

Where is the prison that takes volunteers
to play in a cell block awhile?
Where is the prison where nobody fears
to say goodbye and walk away with a smile?

IS prison the word to describe self-control,
self-imposed rules or orderly games?
Through Discordian eyes,
both foolish and wise
aren't Order and Disorder the same?

;-)


Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 06:44:11 pm
Sorry, I'm not much of a poet.


Rat, I suppose it comes down to the question of what keeps you in check; what keeps you humble.

If I read you right, you use RAW’s “Cosmic Schmuck”: that even the most aware person can fall into the perspective trap.  Some around here use the “Monkey Mind” approach, that, when all is said and done, the domesticated primate will often act like... well... a domesticated primate.  In I3!, George Dorn called it the Robot, Hagbard called it the Governor, etc.

I suppose, in this manner, the fact that I say that you can never escape the BIP is my way of keeping tabs on myself, and why “jailbreak” is an ongoing process, and not a one-time thing.  Every time I break out and change my filters [reconstruction; aftermath] – every time I see the bars in my cell, and move beyond them – every time I think for myself, and not my preconceptions – it can be taken as a given that I will once again find myself in a cell of my own devising.

So, I suppose it all depends on the metaphor you decide on using.  There’s no reason to argue aesthetics in a case like this, but there is a way to offer understanding.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: AFK on January 18, 2008, 06:45:09 pm
Okay, here's how I think of it.  You've got Reality.  You've got an individual human's perception of reality.  Because of our physiological and biological limitations (part of the bars of the BIP) we can't possibly comprehend or observe all of Reality.  

So let's just imagine that Reality is a circle for a minute.  To continue the prison metaphor, this is the ultimate outer reaches of the prison, if you will.  We can't get beyond Reality, even if we could perceive its edges.  

Within this circle is another amorphous shape.  It represents a combination of our actual and perceived limitations, as related to biology, physiology, attitudes, belief systems, etc.  

For some this shape maybe a well-defined, solid-lined square.  They don't even entertain the idea that there is more of Reality beyond their square.  For others, it may be a dotted line, others haven't found the boundaries and continue to explore their reality.  

So, the way I see it, a sort of freedom would be the willingness to accept that one is limited in what they can perceive and looks to expand the boundaries, or to work along the edges to see where those boundaries actually go.  A lack of freedom would be the man in the box, refusing to look beyond it.  But then again, that interpretation is based on the observer.  He would say he is free while the outside observer does not.  
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 06:48:04 pm
Hey, that's kind of nice, RWHN.  I like it.


Motion to include all of this in the wiki.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 07:21:47 pm
Sorry, I'm not much of a poet.


Rat, I suppose it comes down to the question of what keeps you in check; what keeps you humble.

If I read you right, you use RAW’s “Cosmic Schmuck”: that even the most aware person can fall into the perspective trap.  Some around here use the “Monkey Mind” approach, that, when all is said and done, the domesticated primate will often act like... well... a domesticated primate.  In I3!, George Dorn called it the Robot, Hagbard called it the Governor, etc.

I suppose, in this manner, the fact that I say that you can never escape the BIP is my way of keeping tabs on myself, and why “jailbreak” is an ongoing process, and not a one-time thing.  Every time I break out and change my filters [reconstruction; aftermath] – every time I see the bars in my cell, and move beyond them – every time I think for myself, and not my preconceptions – it can be taken as a given that I will once again find myself in a cell of my own devising.

So, I suppose it all depends on the metaphor you decide on using.  There’s no reason to argue aesthetics in a case like this, but there is a way to offer understanding.


I agree entirely.

I guess in the end, I see the BiP as the state of not realizing you are in prison, the state of confusing your reality tunnel with Reality, that state of mind which creates the "IS/IS NOT" of dogma. Once you realize that your reality is just a perception of, or a part of Reality... and you do something about it, I see that as the Jailbreak.  For me, the occasional (common?) moments of Cosmic Schmuckiness feel like a much different thing than my Jailbreak. The Jailbreak was life altering, smacking down the robot is just a daily task ;-)

I suppose that it may well depend on the personal experience of the individual. For me, there is a very strong and hard line between the me that existed for 23 years and the me that suddenly broke out of a Black Iron Prison. Since then, I've been a Cosmic Schmuck a thousand and twenty-three times, but none of those changed my life, they just kinda annoy the piss out of me when I catch them. Perhaps that's why I have a hard time tying the metaphor in the same manner... for me the experience was so strong that I feel it needs to be represented as some major shift/change. It doesn't mean I've got enough hubris to think I am free forever (no Once Saved Always Saved). The risk of being dragged back to prison seems very real to me... going back to a single, muted view of reality could happen. Because of that, I like to consider myself currently out of prison... that way I might be more prone to stay out ;-)

To mutilate RHWN's example:

If Reality is a circle, the BiP is any number of specific, predefined shapes within that circle (the republican shape and the Democrat shape and the Catholic shape and the Atheist shape etc). We could be represented as a much smaller circle, perhaps initially inside one of the other shapes (one of the Prisons). Once we break out of that shape (Our BiP), we can float around in the really big circle, ordering and disordering, experimenting with this shape or that shape, maybe even voluntarily going into other shapes.

We're still constrained by our own little circle (the physical limits of our perceptions), but we're no longer locked inside one of those little prisons.

Of course, I think we're all saying the same thing (just ordering it differently) ;-)
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: AFK on January 18, 2008, 07:31:52 pm
But see I don't think they are predefined.  I think perhaps, to use your political party example, there may be preferred pre-defined shapes that have been developed by those parties.  But that in no way forces the individuals to conform to them.  I think there are certain elements that, in a way, can be pre-defined.  Those linked to biology and physiology.  But then you have the elements of experience and environment that can be quite malleable.

Further, I'd even argue that the biological and physiological are malleable, in as much that we humans still don't fully understand our own biology.  The fact that through brain research we still haven't concretely nailed down when the brain stops developing speaks to that malleability. 
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 08:02:54 pm
But see I don't think they are predefined.  I think perhaps, to use your political party example, there may be preferred pre-defined shapes that have been developed by those parties.  But that in no way forces the individuals to conform to them.  I think there are certain elements that, in a way, can be pre-defined.  Those linked to biology and physiology.  But then you have the elements of experience and environment that can be quite malleable.

I think we may have had a disconnect here. When I'm talking about these predefined shapes that people may be imprisoned in, its not as though the shape is identical for everyone. So for me (as an example):

My little circle (the physical bounds of my ability to perceive and process data) existed within the rigid, predefined shape of "Jehovah's Wittness" (lets say that its the shape of their Dogma and social rules)BiPjw. I perceived reality in a way unique from other JW's (my circle covered a slightly different area than theirs), but we all existed within the bounds of the belief system. That is, while my perspective within BiP-JWratatosk may have been unique,  I was still tied to a tiny piece of Reality. Breaking out of  BiPjw, then for me was step one, from it I was trapped in the BiPAtheist.

Eventually, I broke out of BiPAtheist (or BiP-Atheistratatosk)... and thanks to Bob and other people my brain suddenly began to grok the concept of reality-tunnels and perception etc. That, I think is THE Prison break. Some people change dogmas, trading liberal for conservative (or neo-con), but they're still trapped. Free of the BiP,  people kick dogma to the curb, they no longer see Reality, but instead the see reality?.

Quote
Further, I'd even argue that the biological and physiological are malleable, in as much that we humans still don't fully understand our own biology.  The fact that through brain research we still haven't concretely nailed down when the brain stops developing speaks to that malleability. 

Agreed, but I don't see biological and physiological constraints as BiP. From my perspective that line of reasoning seems close to the "Free will doesn't exist because we can't defy gravity" type of argument...

My goddess, here we are discussing cool and interesting philosophy without having to say fnord every two minutes... SHOCKING!!!!
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: AFK on January 18, 2008, 08:09:43 pm
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from now. 

The way I understood the BIP when it was first being tossed around, is that the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU.  Like in the opening piece of the pamphlet.  One bar is your music collection, another someting else.  It would seem to me that biological and physiological constraints are going to inform and define you as you.  It may be subconscious, and it certainly may be difficult to impossible to impact, but I would think, nonetheless, it does impact how one navigates the world.

Indeed, I think one also has some dominion over those constraints.  To the extent that one introduces substances and chemicals that can impact biology and physiology.  To the extent that one engages in behaviors that impact biology and physiology.  For example, participating in extreme sports. 

Oh, and fnord.   :fnord:
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: LMNO on January 18, 2008, 08:12:06 pm
Quote
My goddess, here we are discussing cool and interesting philosophy without having to say fnord every two minutes... SHOCKING!!!!


Indeed, did many things come to pass.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 08:36:12 pm
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from now. 

The way I understood the BIP when it was first being tossed around, is that the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU.  Like in the opening piece of the pamphlet.  One bar is your music collection, another someting else.  It would seem to me that biological and physiological constraints are going to inform and define you as you.  It may be subconscious, and it certainly may be difficult to impossible to impact, but I would think, nonetheless, it does impact how one navigates the world.

That might well be a useful way of looking at it.

I think mostly, for me, the prison metaphor indicates that you have no choice... no freedom... yet, most of us seem able to choose which bits of reality we keep and discard... the direction our tunnel might point in or even the scope of the tunnel.

But then, maybe that freedom is just how it feels to be a trustee in the BiP?


Indeed, I think one also has some dominion over those constraints.  To the extent that one introduces substances and chemicals that can impact biology and physiology.  To the extent that one engages in behaviors that impact biology and physiology.  For example, participating in extreme sports. 

Oh, and fnord.   :fnord:
[/quote]

Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 18, 2008, 09:20:58 pm
the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU

This line kept echoing in my head after the last post... damn difficult to have a conference call with RHWN echos crashing around inside one's skull!!

This may well be the KEY difference between our perceptions.

You may see the bars as what makes you, you. I seem to see the bars as what you thought made you , you... before the jailbreak.

;-)
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 19, 2008, 09:29:22 am
If I may say a drunken thing about the number 23 and what it means to me...

In retrospect, I became aware that the age 23 was, for me and many around me, the age at which I believed I had achieved complete enlightenment and awareness. I truly. most honesty, believed with all my brain that I had learned all, understood all, and was, for lack of a better word, "wise". I could tell anyone, The Way It Was; The Way The Universe Worked. I was the ultimate Idealist, and I was full of Ideas.

It was not terribly long after that when I realized that as much as I thought I knew, there was at least as much yet to be conceived.

So for me personally, 23 represents believing all, knowing nothing. At 36, I am even more skeptical of what I think I know, and am hopeful of learning more.

Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Jenne on January 20, 2008, 04:45:41 am
That sounds pretty damned healthy to me, Nigel.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Jasper on January 21, 2008, 10:22:57 pm
I may not know it All, but I at least have an answer for all of it.




Edit:  Upon posting, I decide to rescind the remark as that it sounded funnier in my head.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Bu☆ns on January 22, 2008, 07:51:17 am
since i've read the BIP pamphlet...hmm has it been a year now? i dunno i kind of took it in and let it seed a little.  and as i make certain connections this is how it has come so far. 

the bars of the BIP are sort of like mile markers throughout the progression of the individual's personality.  i have a difficult time seeing the prison as a fixed unit much like how the personality is constantly changing based on new input.  to me the bars sort of color the input as it passes through.   

i THINK it was christopher s. hyatt who once said something like, "it doesn't matter what you're transcending as long as you transcend."  the crucial point to me in the whole metaphor is the jailbreak.  or rather a jailbreaking.

it was important to me to see the BIP as a method rather than a circumstance.  otherwise 'what's in it for me?' i thought.  so i thought of gurdjeff's self-remembering (a term i perfer over the simililar idea of 'mindfulness' or 'self-awareness').

in this way i tend to correspond the bars of the prison (or the various kinds of input) as markers of self-remembering as a method of awareness. the process of jailbreaking is ongoing. to always be jailbreaking drops any lust of result and keeps one aware of the process rather than some perceived goal.

being aware of the process allows one to be aware of the major and subtle paradigm shifts that take place within and allow a sort of watching.  the black iron prison then becomes a black iron lexus. you're still within the confines but at least now you have a pretty sweet ride.

in other words i think the method of the BIP is to transcend from 'black iron prison' to 'golden sphere of possibility'.

at least right now thats how it makes the most sense to me. but the seed is still a sprout and i'm quite anxious to see how it will grow.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: barumunk on January 22, 2008, 08:25:50 am

If Reality is a circle, the BiP is any number of specific, predefined shapes within that circle (the republican shape and the Democrat shape and the Catholic shape and the Atheist shape etc). We could be represented as a much smaller circle, perhaps initially inside one of the other shapes (one of the Prisons). Once we break out of that shape (Our BiP), we can float around in the really big circle, ordering and disordering, experimenting with this shape or that shape, maybe even voluntarily going into other shapes.

We're still constrained by our own little circle (the physical limits of our perceptions), but we're no longer locked inside one of those little prisons.

Of course, I think we're all saying the same thing (just ordering it differently) ;-)

Yeah all through the thread i was seeing more sense in what rat was saying, and i feel that was the way i interpreted the BIP, but here near the end of the thread, i see that its all just in the destail, although

I think it was the eariler comment about the similarities between the BIP and the curse if the greyface, and i like the fact that there is that corrolation between the PD and BIP, which i think has been lackin till now.

I also quite like burnstoupee's idea that one transcends form the BIP to the GSP... as apposed to it just being  an "arbitrary parallell". like seeing the Prison for what it is, then realizing that you are not confined to that particular "circle"/sphere of interpretation of reality... makes it far for positive, hence the GSP.

 
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Cramulus on January 22, 2008, 08:16:57 pm
yeah, very well said, Burns!
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Placid Dingo on June 11, 2012, 03:02:26 am
BUMP because this is a great quality thread.

Also, Nigel's interpretation of 23 is pretty mint.
Title: Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
Post by: Don Coyote on June 11, 2012, 03:08:57 am
Interesting.