Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: Cain on April 22, 2008, 05:22:19 pm

Title: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 22, 2008, 05:22:19 pm
“We've just heard. Lord Winder is dead. Um. Lord Snapcase is Patrician.”
A cheer began among the nearby defenders, and was taken up below. Vimes felt the relief rise. But he wouldn't be Vimes if he just let things lie.
He called out: “So would you like to change ends?”
“Er…sorry?”
“I mean, would your chaps like to have a go at defending the barricade and we can try attacking it?”
Vimes heard laughter from the defenders.
There was a pause. Then the young man said: “Um…why?”
“Because, correct me if I am wrong, we are now the loyal supporters of the official government and you are the rebellious rump of a discredited administration. Am I right?”

- Terry Pratchett, Night Watch



Something rather odd happened about 30 years ago.  So odd, in fact, that it has taken about 25 years for most politically savvy people to catch up on what actually happened.  And the public, well...the public have failed to even realize at all, for the most part.

What event am I speaking of, you wonder?  I'm glad you asked.  I'm talking about the ideal of revolution moving from the left of politics to the right.  Utopian, revolutionary sentiment ceased to be a major factor in mainstream left-wing politics since the 70s, but has been a facet of right-wing politics in America, the UK and (to a much lesser extent) Europe since the 80s.

It was quite amusing, really, when you look at it.  Before, the right was mostly associated with social values, especially political ones.  Then, suddenly, all these capitalist raiders appeared, upsetting the system, declaring they wanted to break down the last vestiges of a stale, old society that did not serve the market.

And that is, in part, what I want to talk about.  This shift in sentiment, especially in relation to us here.

I think it would be fair to say most Discordians are either left-leaning anarchists or liberal/socialists who score highly on anti-authoritarianism.  In general, though there are a few exceptions.  In short, it would be no great distortion of reality to consider most Discordians as belonging to the left wing of political thought.

Now, I know some people here are of the opinion that the USA, the UK and the political systems of the recent, generally decent past, are ones that can be saved or resurrected.  I am, however, not of that opinion.  In fact, I am not sure that saving them is even desirable.  Going by the trends I see, I can fathom much more freedom and opportunity in the near future....but more of that later.  As I was saying, I think the rot is too deep for even the best surgeons to save the patient.  And the best surgeons were long run out of town by cowboys and faith healers.

In such a situation, I believe the best course of action is to precipitate a crisis within the current political climate, one towards which it is heading anyway, and seize the advantages provided by that to carve out one's own fortune and freedom's before anyone else realizes what is happening.  I am not talking of revolution, or even counter-revolution.  I am talking about using the chaos of a revolution to seize one's own future by the throat.  Using currently existing forces and helping them along to their eventual conclusion, where they negate themselves, and then using that void to further yourself in the world.

Of course, the minor problem is that any successful revolution is going to be caused by forces that are ascendant in the right...especially the Neolibertarian and Neoconservative schools of thought.

Some of you undoubtedly will disagree with my assessment, even if not on the grounds of the politics of the western nations being beyond saving.  For example, I can imagine a few people saying “hang on a minute, how can a political philosophy that has brought us unlimited war and an ever increasing government be revolutionary, except by ineptitude?”  Well, I'm glad you asked, since it brings me to one of my key ideas in this, which is capital.

Capital is the key component of the right-wing revolution.  By lifting the restrictions on the flow of capital, the market reaches every corner of the world, affects every interaction.  And as Marx predicts, in doing so, it breaks down ties.  Ties to the state, ties to the family, ties to religion and ties to ideology.

Furthermore, while governments under such political philosophies do grow larger, they also hollow themselves out.  The government eats more than ever, but is weaker too, outsourcing everything it can to private companies.  The government is nothing more than a huge, ravenous husk at this point, with the corporations acting as infesting lifeforms, feeding off their host's apparent and former strength.

The usual right-wing retards often talk about smashing the government, making it as small as possible...and I've decided to help things along somewhat, I think.  I'm no right-winger, not in any sense of the word, but I have no problem with playing one to suit my own, longer term goals.

The world is changing, reverting.  The effect of capital, that I have described above is accurate...but only up to a point. It dissolves loyalty to the state and ideology, but in return brings the promise of holy warriors, neo-mediaevalism, private armies, modern tribes and new pirates.  The concept of the state, with us legally since the Treaty of Westphalia, is being broken on the tide of international finance, and in its place is leaving us with a world that a 10th century European would recognize.  I don't believe such a process is reversible, though it may be cyclical and a new conception of the state will arise in a few hundred years.  But we have to live in the times we are in, not those we wish were now.  And that means seizing a chance among the upheaval that will accompany any transition.

And the right, of course, has its own mirror images of people like us.  That is, to say, people who want to be able to ingest any damn chemical they want, to not have to live by religious dogma and to not have a tyrannical government breathing down their necks every five minutes.  It just so happens these are a small number, who are vastly outnumbered by religious and nationalistic tards, who are hardly original or sophisticated thinkers.  The latter have signed up to the program of the former (which includes this capitalist revolutionary program) mostly without understanding it, and being used merely for their value in creating noise and creating electoral support, but there is always a fear among the revolutionaries that the religious nutters in particular will turn on them, and drown them in a sea of decidedly anti-capitalist and tedious dogma.

And that, I believe, is where we come in. As a group, we are certainly small, but we hit above our own weight.  We already have certain Beltway Libertarian magazines fawning over our irreligion and our knowledge of social interactions, memes, the internet and viral marketing would undoubtedly be useful.  Plus, we are not religious fanatics, or at least not in the Christian sense.  In short, we are people this small, hopelessly outnumbered faction of the right can do business with.

And probably would.  I very much doubt they would give a shit if we wanted to drink, smoke pot and shoot guns all day long, as long as we delivered.  We have the discipline only a shared ethos can provide, but with none of the downsides of normal religious nuttery.  Not only can we do business with them, we would be considered natural allies, able to help keep the religious right at arms length, all the while manipulating them into doing our bidding.  The right may not have many original thinkers, but it has plenty of mindless followers who are far less factional than the left's mindless followers.

In other words, we could have our cake and eat it.  Help bring down the system by forcing it along its current self-destructive course at an ever faster pace.  Mingle with the rich and influential, and possibly even get paid for our devotion towards destroying government.  Be in a position to exercise a level of control over the religious right, while maintaining our antipathy to them, and best of all, securing the necessary resources that will come in useful once the system starts to collapse under its own inconsistencies.  Plus, there is always the fun of playing the role of revolutionary, even if you're doing so with the financial backing of a PAC.

I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Adios on April 22, 2008, 05:26:59 pm
Hmmmm. An alliance. Interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: hunter s.durden on April 22, 2008, 05:42:03 pm
I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.

Agreed.

Penn Gillette comes to mind when you talk about this (both a Subgenius and Libertarian). A large portion of the right-wingers you talk about actually have values on par, just a different vision (charitable organization in lieu of government ones).

I'd also like to see what Mike Gravel is up to nowadays. He jumped ship from the Democrats for the Libertarians. I'm interested in seeing how they receive him.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 22, 2008, 05:43:06 pm
Count me the fuck in! :evil:

Oh and give this venture a snappy title while you're at it.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 22, 2008, 06:04:37 pm
Sounds like a reasonable proposition Cain, I'm intrigued. Also, which Beltway magazines are fawning? I want Copies!!!
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: hunter s.durden on April 22, 2008, 06:07:28 pm
Srsly. 

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28779.html

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125934.html

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29229.html

There are probably more, as well.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: LMNO on April 22, 2008, 08:00:43 pm
This is an interesting idea, Cain.

Get the house of cards to topple that mcuh faster, if I understand you right.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Golden Applesauce on April 22, 2008, 09:17:33 pm
So, supposing chaos happens... then what?

All in all, the status quo isn't that bad for me.  I have a steady supply of food, shelter, and health care.  I'm getting a cool education and the internet pipes connect me to anywhere in the world where someone can speak English.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: hunter s.durden on April 22, 2008, 09:21:01 pm
So, supposing chaos happens... then what?

I have a steady supply of food, shelter, and health care.  I'm getting a cool education and the internet pipes connect me to anywhere in the world where someone can speak English.

We pick up those that don't.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Golden Applesauce on April 22, 2008, 09:54:57 pm
So I should break the current world order just so I can share?  :?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: hunter s.durden on April 22, 2008, 09:56:50 pm
So I should break the current world order just so I can share?  :?

No. We will. You do whatever you want.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 22, 2008, 10:11:27 pm
Hunter, you're like a fkin one man win-orgy tonite :mittens:







with a fail-convention of an avatar  :argh!:
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: hunter s.durden on April 22, 2008, 10:16:30 pm
Shut it, or Brokeback goes right back up.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 22, 2008, 10:19:36 pm
That's a mighty fine avatar you got yoself there pardner
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Daruko on April 22, 2008, 10:25:07 pm
Sounds cool, but I want more.  Give me more.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 22, 2008, 11:46:08 pm
:mittens:
A pleasure to read, as always.
I'm also intrigued by this idea, and it seems to make sense, but I wonder how this translates to "next action" pragmatism: how do we go about starting to forge this unholy alliance?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: BootyBay on April 23, 2008, 12:05:58 am
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Golden Applesauce on April 23, 2008, 01:57:02 am
That reminds me of another privilege I enjoy:

People who sell me food face serious consequences if it has mad cow or other nasty things in it.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on April 23, 2008, 02:38:28 am
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

This is a "revolution" with the blessing of Eris. What things are "supposed to be about" no longer applies.

Make strife. Take advantage. Reap the lulz.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 23, 2008, 07:32:19 am
I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.

Agreed.

Penn Gillette comes to mind when you talk about this (both a Subgenius and Libertarian). A large portion of the right-wingers you talk about actually have values on par, just a different vision (charitable organization in lieu of government ones).

I'd also like to see what Mike Gravel is up to nowadays. He jumped ship from the Democrats for the Libertarians. I'm interested in seeing how they receive him.

True.  I was thinking the more insane variant however.  The Beltway NeoCons and Libertarians have a tacit alliance, and neither is that friendly to the idea of Theocracy, despite the lip-service they pay to it.  Their actions help break down the system faster, they tend to be looked upon favourably by Wall Street than, say, the antiwar.com style libertarians, who I would generally consider good guys.

Infiltrating the rich bad guys and pushing their system to its logical limits, and watching the crash, is more amusing and worthwhile, I feel.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 23, 2008, 07:33:36 am
This is an interesting idea, Cain.

Get the house of cards to topple that mcuh faster, if I understand you right.

Basically, yes.  The base of the house is too secure to affect it from this level, so smashing down from the top is more appealing.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on April 23, 2008, 07:35:10 am
We will, of course, have to be prepared to deal with leftist opposition.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 23, 2008, 07:37:56 am
So, supposing chaos happens... then what?

All in all, the status quo isn't that bad for me.  I have a steady supply of food, shelter, and health care.  I'm getting a cool education and the internet pipes connect me to anywhere in the world where someone can speak English.

Yeah, but its boring.

Besides, a collapse wont be total.  It'll just change how the world works a lot.  For example, the Peace of Westphalia established freedom of religion within Europe, and autonomy of state boundaries.  But in the confusing meantime, lots of people wont know what is happening.  I intend to, and to make use of that brief period to establish myself.

After that...who knows?  It'll depend where everyone else stands in relation to me.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 23, 2008, 07:54:29 am
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

They already do.  The difference is becoming far more important to their goals and thus an integral part of their system, then removing ourselves and our services at an opportune moment.  Its the advanced version of throwing sand in the gears.

Because the ruling class, as you call them, are reliant on the state for protection.  Legal protection, bailing them out when their businesses fail (socialism for the rich) and notions of sovereignty and nationalism that buttress support and isolate opposition.  They also rely to a large degree on support based on ethnic and religious ideals linked to the state.  If capital breaks down the links between those bonds between religion, nationality and state (as it seems to), then the leadership lose their support.

Because idealists are rarely trustworthy when it comes to action.  Many have problems distinguishing between the world as it is, and as it could be.  Also, look at all the idealistic revolutions of the past (Communism, Nazism to a degree, the US invasion of Iraq etc) and when they get into power, the result is usually a river of blood, and a new tyranny.  Besides, this isn't about revolution per se, its about duping right-wing revolutionaries and using them to further our own ends.  I want to see what happens when the dust settles, because its more interesting than the current nonsense, which is predictable and narrow in its outcomes.  Its like pressing a button to see what happens, writ large.  I want to press the button that says "destroy the international system" and see how it turns out, with modern technology and loyalties.

Protections are indeed there for a reason.  Look at Argentina, or Russia under Yeltsin, or Bolivia.  And they didn't go half as far as the true free market fanatics want.  Now imagine that sort of havoc, visited on the centre of international capital, the one place that if it goes down hard, the rest of the world will shortly follow.

Besides, once we're in place, we can play around with tactics more.  For example, play off the religious nutters against the neolibertarians/neocons.  I tend to think the neolibs will win, because they have international finance on their side, mostly.  But if say, for some reason, the Christian Right gained the upper hand...well, even religious fanatics need people who can think outside the box and do things that if they did it, would make them look very bad indeed.  It's all a matter of reading the current situation and playing it for all its worth.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: wade on April 23, 2008, 05:22:21 pm
I want to be on the side with the resources...
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Jenne on April 23, 2008, 05:26:03 pm
I dunno.  Cozying up to Xtians would creep me out too much--have too many of them still in my family (my parents for starters).  I would have to sit this one out and watch and learn from the sidelines.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: BootyBay on April 24, 2008, 02:30:46 am
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

They already do.  The difference is becoming far more important to their goals and thus an integral part of their system, then removing ourselves and our services at an opportune moment.  Its the advanced version of throwing sand in the gears.

Because the ruling class, as you call them, are reliant on the state for protection.  Legal protection, bailing them out when their businesses fail (socialism for the rich) and notions of sovereignty and nationalism that buttress support and isolate opposition.  They also rely to a large degree on support based on ethnic and religious ideals linked to the state.  If capital breaks down the links between those bonds between religion, nationality and state (as it seems to), then the leadership lose their support.

Because idealists are rarely trustworthy when it comes to action.  Many have problems distinguishing between the world as it is, and as it could be.  Also, look at all the idealistic revolutions of the past (Communism, Nazism to a degree, the US invasion of Iraq etc) and when they get into power, the result is usually a river of blood, and a new tyranny.  Besides, this isn't about revolution per se, its about duping right-wing revolutionaries and using them to further our own ends.  I want to see what happens when the dust settles, because its more interesting than the current nonsense, which is predictable and narrow in its outcomes.  Its like pressing a button to see what happens, writ large.  I want to press the button that says "destroy the international system" and see how it turns out, with modern technology and loyalties.

Protections are indeed there for a reason.  Look at Argentina, or Russia under Yeltsin, or Bolivia.  And they didn't go half as far as the true free market fanatics want.  Now imagine that sort of havoc, visited on the centre of international capital, the one place that if it goes down hard, the rest of the world will shortly follow.

Besides, once we're in place, we can play around with tactics more.  For example, play off the religious nutters against the neolibertarians/neocons.  I tend to think the neolibs will win, because they have international finance on their side, mostly.  But if say, for some reason, the Christian Right gained the upper hand...well, even religious fanatics need people who can think outside the box and do things that if they did it, would make them look very bad indeed.  It's all a matter of reading the current situation and playing it for all its worth.

Ohhhhhhh.... now I get it!  Loll I was being a moron.  Forgive my lack of understanding.  You're proposing doing something like investing $500 mil in a company, waiting til it makes a dangerous venture and then selling out every share of that stock.  I like that idea! >:)
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Golden Applesauce on April 24, 2008, 04:03:38 am
Two things:

1.) How?  OK, the gov't is a stack of cards.  Where the fuck do I blow on it?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Adios on April 24, 2008, 12:53:31 pm
I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.

Agreed.

Penn Gillette comes to mind when you talk about this (both a Subgenius and Libertarian). A large portion of the right-wingers you talk about actually have values on par, just a different vision (charitable organization in lieu of government ones).

I'd also like to see what Mike Gravel is up to nowadays. He jumped ship from the Democrats for the Libertarians. I'm interested in seeing how they receive him.

True.  I was thinking the more insane variant however.  The Beltway NeoCons and Libertarians have a tacit alliance, and neither is that friendly to the idea of Theocracy, despite the lip-service they pay to it.  Their actions help break down the system faster, they tend to be looked upon favourably by Wall Street than, say, the antiwar.com style libertarians, who I would generally consider good guys.

Infiltrating the rich bad guys and pushing their system to its logical limits, and watching the crash, is more amusing and worthwhile, I feel.

Feed the Beast™ it's own bile until it explodes............
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Sepia on April 24, 2008, 01:14:23 pm
I really like your thoughts.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: East Coast Hustle on April 29, 2008, 01:46:09 am
Count me the fuck in! :evil:

Oh and give this venture a snappy title while you're at it.

I've got one.

I call it "Life".
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 29, 2008, 03:01:37 am

Besides, once we're in place, we can play around with tactics more.  For example, play off the religious nutters against the neolibertarians/neocons.  I tend to think the neolibs will win, because they have international finance on their side, mostly.  But if say, for some reason, the Christian Right gained the upper hand...well, even religious fanatics need people who can think outside the box and do things that if they did it, would make them look very bad indeed.  It's all a matter of reading the current situation and playing it for all its worth.

Unless you turn into them.

That happens.  Trust me.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on April 29, 2008, 11:26:40 am
To some people, certainly.

However, I deal with such people in and out every day.  I understand them, and their motivations, very well.  I've had to put up with listening to them for about 4 years now, week after week.  And yet, I am unconcerned about doing anything except duping them and playing them.  These people think power resides in hierachies, and so have an instinctual fear of disrupting the status quo, even with their revolutionary rhetoric.  I, on the other hand, believe power resides in networks, and so disruption, upheaval and confusion are of little consequence.

Its all a matter of positioning the other players on the board so everything revolves around yourself.  From there on in, its a matter of seizing those black swan moments to disrupt the systems.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: NWC on May 06, 2008, 10:24:33 pm
:mittens:
A pleasure to read, as always.
I'm also intrigued by this idea, and it seems to make sense, but I wonder how this translates to "next action" pragmatism: how do we go about starting to forge this unholy alliance?

Echo'd.

I like the way you're thinking, Cain.

This is a great example of neophilius versus neophobus thought patterns.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Shadowdaemon on May 07, 2008, 05:34:42 am
I have to say Cain I've had similar thought processes before and love this idea. However I also I find myself wondering if this sort of revolution would be noticeable enough or not.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 02, 2009, 05:27:42 am
I kinda think this is the best thing Cain has written here.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: rubickspoop on July 02, 2009, 06:50:53 am
Thanks for bringing this back to the top, TGRR. Too bad there aren't more specifics for teaming up with the radical right in here. Everyone seems to like the idea, but I don't see any concrete ideas (at least on this thread) for how to work/ work with the neo-conservatives/neo-libertarians. I've got some personal experience with these people. Before the 2008 election, I did some canvasing for Ron Paul, who is one crazy congressman from Texas, but seems to be the type of player Cain proposes siding with. He has a very strong base of idealistic, insane followers. Perhaps we should join the Ron Paul revolution/Campaign for Liberty? Not really something the Brits could get in on, and this group is pretty alienated from the mainstream of American politics, and they are pretty strapped for money already, but... its a concrete idea. They are really into grassroots organization and spreading the word with canvasing and street-corner preaching type shit. They run a lot of their local campaigns through meet-up. I don't know much, but I think we could get in bed with them pretty easily.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Faust on July 04, 2009, 12:49:05 am
This was awesome.
Cain, when you inevitably get a really good job in the illuminati can you take me on as your secretary?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Template on July 05, 2009, 05:09:20 pm
Thanks for bringing this back to the top, TGRR. Too bad there aren't more specifics for teaming up with the radical right in here. Everyone seems to like the idea, but I don't see any concrete ideas (at least on this thread) for how to work/ work with the neo-conservatives/neo-libertarians. I've got some personal experience with these people. Before the 2008 election, I did some canvasing for Ron Paul, who is one crazy congressman from Texas, but seems to be the type of player Cain proposes siding with. He has a very strong base of idealistic, insane followers. Perhaps we should join the Ron Paul revolution/Campaign for Liberty? Not really something the Brits could get in on, and this group is pretty alienated from the mainstream of American politics, and they are pretty strapped for money already, but... its a concrete idea. They are really into grassroots organization and spreading the word with canvasing and street-corner preaching type shit. They run a lot of their local campaigns through meet-up. I don't know much, but I think we could get in bed with them pretty easily.

I have the impression that Ron Paul was a bit of a cult of personality.  Or a treat for the fanboy mentality.  In any case, as you pointed out, it was grassroots.  Not so large a pool of assets to buy our "loyalty" or aid.  We might have found some people that were cool like us, but we'd probably end up marked for at least a few years as "Paulites".

If I understand Cain correctly, we want people that want things similar to what we want, but have a bit more elite resources and influence on their side.  People that know they can afford to live in "interesting times," and would prefer that to whatever nonsense the administration/legislature/judiciary cooks up next.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: rubickspoop on July 06, 2009, 07:35:50 am
I have the impression that Ron Paul was a bit of a cult of personality.  Or a treat for the fanboy mentality.  In any case, as you pointed out, it was grassroots.  Not so large a pool of assets to buy our "loyalty" or aid.  We might have found some people that were cool like us, but we'd probably end up marked for at least a few years as "Paulites".

If I understand Cain correctly, we want people that want things similar to what we want, but have a bit more elite resources and influence on their side.  People that know they can afford to live in "interesting times," and would prefer that to whatever nonsense the administration/legislature/judiciary cooks up next.

Yeah, he is a bit of a cult of personality. But that's a good point about being marked as Paulites, as most people stay the fuck away from those types.
However, I don't know of any right wing "groups" that are well established except for the fox newsies and the Glenn Beckers. I think Ron Paul's movement is better than those fuckers. I don't know, I might be looking at this from the wrong angle, but I don't know any groups more suitable for what Cain suggested than the Paulies.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: The Johnny on August 20, 2010, 12:31:34 am

WHUT YOU MEAN THAT DIS WUSS A DISKURDIAN CONSPIRACY AND UR GONNA FEED ME TO THE CHIPPERS NOW??? YOU WURR MINE BESTUST FREND...
                 /
                 /
                 /
 :mullet:
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: MMIX on February 09, 2017, 02:43:39 pm
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

and Bump
History has always been a passion of mine. Historic documents have a special fascination.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: LMNO on February 09, 2017, 03:53:26 pm
Fucking prophets.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 12, 2017, 05:27:02 pm
Hi Cain,

Long time buddy. Glad to see you're still thinking big.

"The usual right-wing retards often talk about smashing the government, making it as small as possible...and I've decided to help things along somewhat, I think.  I'm no right-winger, not in any sense of the word, but I have no problem with playing one to suit my own, longer term goals."

Agreed! I have been saying "I don't want a government that is too big, nor do I want a government that is too small, I want one that is just the right size".  A goldilocks government. But you're right, since ours is too big right now, supporting smaller government does achieve my goal in most cases. Using this phrase (Goldi-locks government) I believe causes these people to think, they can clearly see the danger of "big government" yet they fail to see the danger of "small government", maybe by contrasting the two, I can get them to think a bit more.

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2017, 10:51:02 pm

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on October 14, 2017, 07:53:05 am
The thing about worrying about centralized currency is it always, without exceptions, boils down to "the Jews". Just watch.

Instead of worrying about who sets financial policy (which is much more complicated than a bunch of fat cats at the Fed), we should target the mechanisms of wealth disparity directly. Low wages, discriminatory loans, skyrocketing costs of education and health care, self-employment tax penalties, and state-enforced monopolies.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2017, 02:51:23 am
The thing about worrying about centralized currency is it always, without exceptions, boils down to "the Jews". Just watch.


Not even touching that bet.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 15, 2017, 05:49:36 pm

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.

Yea, I think I do know what you mean. The main issue right now is volatility, who wants to pay for something in bitcoin if the price is $4000/coin last month and $6000/coin this month (or vice versa).

But there are other options that are trying to solve this.

Aside from this, I do like the ideas of not being able to trace, and no central authority.

What do you think the issues are?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 15, 2017, 05:51:54 pm
The thing about worrying about centralized currency is it always, without exceptions, boils down to "the Jews". Just watch.

Instead of worrying about who sets financial policy (which is much more complicated than a bunch of fat cats at the Fed), we should target the mechanisms of wealth disparity directly. Low wages, discriminatory loans, skyrocketing costs of education and health care, self-employment tax penalties, and state-enforced monopolies.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Haha, I doubt "the Jews" will be an issue here, but who knows.

Some folks feel that the cryptocurrency ecosystem has much better ways to distribute wealth. For example, Steemit pays its users for their content, where as Facebook/Twitter/Google do not. "Maybe" that works and adds up over time, giving the people more power.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2017, 07:52:16 pm

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.

Yea, I think I do know what you mean. The main issue right now is volatility, who wants to pay for something in bitcoin if the price is $4000/coin last month and $6000/coin this month (or vice versa).

But there are other options that are trying to solve this.

Aside from this, I do like the ideas of not being able to trace, and no central authority.

What do you think the issues are?

I think the main issue is that currency is a social fiction and operates because people believe in it.  People being pack-based primates, the vast majority of them will only believe in a currency backed by a government of some kind.

It's a non-starter.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on October 16, 2017, 03:11:39 am

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.

Yea, I think I do know what you mean. The main issue right now is volatility, who wants to pay for something in bitcoin if the price is $4000/coin last month and $6000/coin this month (or vice versa).

But there are other options that are trying to solve this.

Aside from this, I do like the ideas of not being able to trace, and no central authority.

What do you think the issues are?

I think the main issue is that currency is a social fiction and operates because people believe in it.  People being pack-based primates, the vast majority of them will only believe in a currency backed by a government of some kind.

It's a non-starter.

Besides the question of perceived legitimacy, cryptocurrencies require infrastructure that will go away without state-level investment and maintenance. Without the internet, there is no such thing as cryptocurrency, and without international regulation and governance, there is no internet. Also, the idea that Bitcoin transactions are "untraceable" is a myth. Every transaction is stored in the blockchain -- which means every bitcoin you deposit or withdraw from your wallet can be tracked directly to you if you are discovered to own the wallet in question. You can do various things to obfuscate ownership (multiple wallets, etc) but bitcoin is laundered just like cash is, for the same reasons.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 16, 2017, 07:10:40 pm

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.

Yea, I think I do know what you mean. The main issue right now is volatility, who wants to pay for something in bitcoin if the price is $4000/coin last month and $6000/coin this month (or vice versa).

But there are other options that are trying to solve this.

Aside from this, I do like the ideas of not being able to trace, and no central authority.

What do you think the issues are?

I think the main issue is that currency is a social fiction and operates because people believe in it.  People being pack-based primates, the vast majority of them will only believe in a currency backed by a government of some kind.

It's a non-starter.

I hear ya. I do think there is an opportunity to make some money though at the very least.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 16, 2017, 07:17:07 pm

Sidenote: What do you think of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum)? This market space has exploded this year, and of course one of its big dreams is replacing the fiat system, which seems related to what you are saying here. By having decentralized currency, would that help achieve your goals?

This is probably going to be more fun than you really wanted, Scorch.

Cryptocurrency doesn't solve any of the problems of money.  Nor does it create any interesting new problems.  It is the fiscal equivalent of grasping at straws.  That are tied to anvils.

Yea, I think I do know what you mean. The main issue right now is volatility, who wants to pay for something in bitcoin if the price is $4000/coin last month and $6000/coin this month (or vice versa).

But there are other options that are trying to solve this.

Aside from this, I do like the ideas of not being able to trace, and no central authority.

What do you think the issues are?

I think the main issue is that currency is a social fiction and operates because people believe in it.  People being pack-based primates, the vast majority of them will only believe in a currency backed by a government of some kind.

It's a non-starter.

Besides the question of perceived legitimacy, cryptocurrencies require infrastructure that will go away without state-level investment and maintenance. Without the internet, there is no such thing as cryptocurrency, and without international regulation and governance, there is no internet. Also, the idea that Bitcoin transactions are "untraceable" is a myth. Every transaction is stored in the blockchain -- which means every bitcoin you deposit or withdraw from your wallet can be tracked directly to you if you are discovered to own the wallet in question. You can do various things to obfuscate ownership (multiple wallets, etc) but bitcoin is laundered just like cash is, for the same reasons.

That's a good point, without the internet this all fails. But boy if that happened, I think the people would actually rise up, but who knows.

I am aware of the how to trace BTC, other forms like say Zcash do better here, and Ethereum is working to implement some of their tech (z-snarks) and Zcash is looking to upgrade (z-starks).

I do think that crypto-currency will never replace fiat, in the same way that movies didn't replace books. We will have both, and they will all have their use cases.

For developing countries, crypto could really be a boon. Or even a place like Venezuela (hyper-inflation) or India (they took back all those paper bills).

Either way, this market is big and growing. Its over 160 Billion now. Last year it was less than a billion. I imagine it will hit a trillion in 2-5 years or so, which means, invest if you can and believe in it.

But I really wasn't trying to take over Cain's thread, so we can stop or create a new one.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2017, 12:48:56 am
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 17, 2017, 04:53:40 pm
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?

Many have a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Counterfeiting is pretty much impossible, or very cost prohibitive at the least
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2017, 05:15:12 pm
The value is derived from it's scarcity, however it is still a fiat currency as there is a limited use to it's spending power, it only becomes useful when translated to currencies that can be used to buy all goods. I will admit bitcoins exchange value has stabilised a lot since the wild swings of several hundred dollars a day,
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 18, 2017, 05:35:31 am
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?

Many have a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Counterfeiting is pretty much impossible, or very cost prohibitive at the least

My ass has a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Yet I cannot use my poop as money.  It seems unfair.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 18, 2017, 02:07:13 pm
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?

Many have a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Counterfeiting is pretty much impossible, or very cost prohibitive at the least

My ass has a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Yet I cannot use my poop as money.  It seems unfair.

haha it does seem unfair :P

Really the only thing that gives anything value is that people agree it is valuable. This is true of Fiat, Gold, Diamonds, Bitcoin, etc.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 18, 2017, 02:10:08 pm
Back on topic, I jut realized Cain created this in 2008 lol

It was pinned so I thought it was at the top, being a newer post, woops.

I came back here looking for folks like Bella, Acoge and TGGR.

I forgot about Faust and Cain, and it is nice to see at least Faust still around.

My site died long ago, and I mainly use Facebook now if I want to talk politics. I like that on Facebook the people I talk to are people I know, using real names/pictures, as I feel they are usually more genuine. But lately, I have been missing some of the old forums like these, so I have been looking around to see what is still out there.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 18, 2017, 11:33:53 pm
Back on topic, I jut realized Cain created this in 2008 lol

It was pinned so I thought it was at the top, being a newer post, woops.

I came back here looking for folks like Bella, Acoge and TGGR.

I forgot about Faust and Cain, and it is nice to see at least Faust still around.

My site died long ago, and I mainly use Facebook now if I want to talk politics. I like that on Facebook the people I talk to are people I know, using real names/pictures, as I feel they are usually more genuine. But lately, I have been missing some of the old forums like these, so I have been looking around to see what is still out there.

Bella discovered pot, IIRC, nbbody's seen Acoge in 6 years or more, and TGRR died of arrogance and we pushed him into a rubbish tip.  He was a cunt, and nobody here misses him.  He still owed me like $50 when he died, so I'm stealing the asshole's headstone.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Junkenstein on October 19, 2017, 12:38:54 am
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?

Many have a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Counterfeiting is pretty much impossible, or very cost prohibitive at the least

My ass has a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Yet I cannot use my poop as money.  It seems unfair.

haha it does seem unfair :P

Really the only thing that gives anything value is that people agree it is valuable. This is true of Fiat, Gold, Diamonds, Bitcoin, etc.

Or, you know, actual value. For example potable water on an island is very valuable. You can choose not to agree, but only one of us will die of dehydration.

"Value" is very situational and can change very quickly with an event or two. Yet paradoxically, Bitcoin will always remain worthless.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 23, 2017, 09:12:34 pm
Back on topic, I jut realized Cain created this in 2008 lol

It was pinned so I thought it was at the top, being a newer post, woops.

I came back here looking for folks like Bella, Acoge and TGGR.

I forgot about Faust and Cain, and it is nice to see at least Faust still around.

My site died long ago, and I mainly use Facebook now if I want to talk politics. I like that on Facebook the people I talk to are people I know, using real names/pictures, as I feel they are usually more genuine. But lately, I have been missing some of the old forums like these, so I have been looking around to see what is still out there.

Bella discovered pot, IIRC, nbbody's seen Acoge in 6 years or more, and TGRR died of arrogance and we pushed him into a rubbish tip.  He was a cunt, and nobody here misses him.  He still owed me like $50 when he died, so I'm stealing the asshole's headstone.

Good for Bella.

Yea, I've tried emailing Acoge but never heard back (using the email he had at my site).

Not surprised with TGGR. He had some insight at times, but he was a serious misanthrope.

The only other guy I've tried to track down is "Grey archer" but was from another forum, and I have failed.

I did track down "Clara Listensprechen", and have her on my Facebook.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 23, 2017, 09:17:42 pm
How is cryptocurrency not fiat currency?

Many have a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Counterfeiting is pretty much impossible, or very cost prohibitive at the least

My ass has a limited supply, so they can't print more.

Yet I cannot use my poop as money.  It seems unfair.

haha it does seem unfair :P

Really the only thing that gives anything value is that people agree it is valuable. This is true of Fiat, Gold, Diamonds, Bitcoin, etc.

Or, you know, actual value. For example potable water on an island is very valuable. You can choose not to agree, but only one of us will die of dehydration.

"Value" is very situational and can change very quickly with an event or two. Yet paradoxically, Bitcoin will always remain worthless.

I hear ya, but I don't think so. The bitcoin market (BTC) broke $100 billion last week, that is more than many large banks. Are banks valuable?

I agree "value" in the sense of "sustaining life" will always be valuable (at least to living creatures). But I do hope you will agree there is more than one kind of value.

I remember discussing "value" with this dude on a plane. He got on about precious metals and how there are limited amounts, and how they can be used to make things like circuit boards, and how other materials are really better (e.g. gold conducts better than copper), etc. But the thing is, even there, this is a big universe, we will find more of it and mine it. With bitcoin, 21 million is the limit, so theoretically, value can only go up over time (sort of like Berkshire Hathaway).

Here is an article I am working my way through now, this article is good to show someone who "doesn't get cryptocurrency":

https://nextshark.com/ben-yu-cryptocurrency-101/
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Junkenstein on October 23, 2017, 09:31:08 pm
Oh, please, do tell me more because I know nothing of cryptocurrencies. At all.

Perhaps you have an informative youtube link or zerohedge article for us?
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 24, 2017, 01:17:12 am

Not surprised with TGGR. He had some insight at times, but he was a serious misanthrope.


The only surprise about TGRR is that his mother didn't strangle him at birth.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 24, 2017, 05:39:58 pm
Oh, please, do tell me more because I know nothing of cryptocurrencies. At all.

Perhaps you have an informative youtube link or zerohedge article for us?

I didn't mean to imply you know nothing, forgive me. I wrote that comment in a hurry.

Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 24, 2017, 06:23:37 pm
Oh, please, do tell me more because I know nothing of cryptocurrencies. At all.

Perhaps you have an informative youtube link or zerohedge article for us?

I didn't mean to imply you know nothing, forgive me. I wrote that comment in a hurry.

Then you wrote that comment as an excuse.
:drama1:
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2017, 06:57:16 pm
Cryptocurrencies are nonsense and I'm quite frankly depressed that I even had to type that out.  It somehow manages to combine the worst aspects of fiat currency and commodity currency into one bag of suck.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 25, 2017, 05:30:18 am
Meh, there are sillier beliefs.

But not many that are more expensive on a personal level.

Thing is, there's no actual positive change.  You still wind up with money that is as reality-based as Wicca - like we have now - only with less regulation to deal with bad actors.

And if you think regulation of currency is a bad thing, I invite you to inspect the history of financial crashes in the United States from 1865-1938.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 25, 2017, 01:54:45 pm
Oh, please, do tell me more because I know nothing of cryptocurrencies. At all.

Perhaps you have an informative youtube link or zerohedge article for us?

I didn't mean to imply you know nothing, forgive me. I wrote that comment in a hurry.

Then you wrote that comment as an excuse.
:drama1:

Yes, I did :P
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 25, 2017, 02:08:00 pm
Cryptocurrencies are nonsense and I'm quite frankly depressed that I even had to type that out.  It somehow manages to combine the worst aspects of fiat currency and commodity currency into one bag of suck.

So Cain does live!

I guess I am the only one who likes crytpocurrency.

You guys are making me have second thoughts about putting any money into it. (I only put a bit, what I could afford to lose)

I do get the need for regulations, I have already seen some really shady stuff (e.g. bad ICOs, pump and dumps, etc). But I have also seen some great things (e.g. Smart contracts, Decentralization, etc).  So for me, on the regulations side, the best way to do that is through code (Smart contracts), as we know we can't really trust the government (even if they do good regulations, will the next administration keep them?).

I really thought Discordians would like this idea as it seems to give more power to the people. And once the kinks are worked out, and as it gains more widespread adoption, it seems to have a really high potential.

Like here's one ICO I have been looking at, but I am not invested:

https://gladius.io/

Their idea "could" stop DDOS attacks, and wouldn't that be valuable? Admittedly they still have work to do, but the idea is solid. And it gives the average person a way to make money with their spare computer power (another idea I like).

If anyone has anything for me to read, please let me know.

But I digress. I'll get off this and on to other things, I think I have beaten this horse a few times here.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Hoopla on October 25, 2017, 07:52:13 pm
You'll find that discordians tend to be a mixed bag.
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: scorch on October 27, 2017, 05:17:46 pm
You'll find that discordians tend to be a mixed bag.

Agreed. I first found this site and become a member in 2005. I still carry around my "Pope of Eris" card in my wallet  8)
Title: Re: Time to switch sides
Post by: Hoopla on October 27, 2017, 06:53:48 pm
You'll find that discordians tend to be a mixed bag.

Agreed. I first found this site and become a member in 2005. I still carry around my "Pope of Eris" card in my wallet  8)

I joined the same year.