Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: omnihil on March 31, 2014, 03:41:47 am

Title: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: omnihil on March 31, 2014, 03:41:47 am
I have a feeling many of you will enjoy this:

http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2014/03/the-experiment.html?m=1
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 05:12:23 am
I have a feeling many of you will enjoy this:

http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2014/03/the-experiment.html?m=1

Well, this one didn't last long.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on March 31, 2014, 05:19:12 am
Now replace the cold shower with a dangerous predator and realise that you're an advocate for being rejected by natural selection.

GTFO my gene pool.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on March 31, 2014, 12:46:10 pm
I haven't read all that many scientific studies which try to imagine what monkeys might say in the situations scientists place them in...
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 31, 2014, 01:12:22 pm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction

Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on March 31, 2014, 01:16:16 pm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction

Aaaaand there it is.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 02:26:33 pm
I don't think it matters (the 100 bonobos thing was a hoax, as well).  What matters is that by post 2, the OP was telling us all what horrible hive-mind monkeys we are.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on March 31, 2014, 03:29:07 pm
I don't think it matters (the 100 bonobos thing was a hoax, as well).  What matters is that by post 2, the OP was telling us all what horrible hive-mind monkeys we are.

That's not what I took from that.

I took from it that society robotically repeats certain behaviors without any understanding (or attempt to understand) of why such actions take place, because: SHEEPLE.  But, I could be jumping the gun there.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 03:41:31 pm
I don't think it matters (the 100 bonobos thing was a hoax, as well).  What matters is that by post 2, the OP was telling us all what horrible hive-mind monkeys we are.

That's not what I took from that.

I took from it that society robotically repeats certain behaviors without any understanding (or attempt to understand) of why such actions take place, because: SHEEPLE.  But, I could be jumping the gun there.

So could I, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on March 31, 2014, 03:47:47 pm
I don't think it matters (the 100 bonobos thing was a hoax, as well).  What matters is that by post 2, the OP was telling us all what horrible hive-mind monkeys we are.

That's not what I took from that.

I took from it that society robotically repeats certain behaviors without any understanding (or attempt to understand) of why such actions take place, because: SHEEPLE.  But, I could be jumping the gun there.

So could I, but I doubt it.

Your track record speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 09:26:22 pm
I don't think it matters (the 100 bonobos thing was a hoax, as well).  What matters is that by post 2, the OP was telling us all what horrible hive-mind monkeys we are.

That's not what I took from that.

I took from it that society robotically repeats certain behaviors without any understanding (or attempt to understand) of why such actions take place, because: SHEEPLE.  But, I could be jumping the gun there.

So could I, but I doubt it.

Your track record speaks for itself.

I am sometimes mistaken.  I hope that's the case here, but I kinda doubt it.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 11:38:24 pm
Granted, I am a horrible paranoid bastard.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: omnihil on March 31, 2014, 11:38:46 pm
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

So, it's fake, but we should treat it as real?

Sort of like the free market, then.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on March 31, 2014, 11:45:25 pm
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

The phenomenon which the article Nigel posted, (which presumably you read, judging by your response?) refers to in saying "regardless of its cause, this [sex difference] raises serious questions about the robustness of the phenomenon" and "the real experiment didn't even make the point that MM wanted to make"?

You can't continue to use it as evidence for your position after it's been discredited so.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 11:49:36 pm
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

The phenomenon which the article Nigel posted, (which presumably you read, judging by your response?) refers to in saying "regardless of its cause, this [sex difference] raises serious questions about the robustness of the phenomenon" and "the real experiment didn't even make the point that MM wanted to make"?

You can't continue to use it as evidence for your position after it's been discredited so.

Depends on why he's (she's?) trying to advance this position.

Because every time a monkey from TDS comes over, I get hit with a fucking fire hose.  They come to teach me things, I am told, but the fire hose makes me fucking hate them, and I don't pay any attention at all to their timeless wisdom.

Needless to say, I hate them like they were Martin Bormann's personal fart catchers.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on March 31, 2014, 11:51:43 pm
This reminds me of a study I read where the scientists trained monkeys to believe that the ladder/banana experiment had taken place and that certain lessons (relating to learned behaviour and tradition) could be drawn from it. The scientists then severed the connection between the teachings or new beliefs and the experiment by dismissing the notion that the experiment had occurred at all and found that the monkeys, given updated information about their 'evidence', continued to operate as if the demonstrably false information were true.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on March 31, 2014, 11:52:15 pm
Trust me, I read a study about this stuff.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 31, 2014, 11:56:42 pm
Trust me, I read a study about this stuff.

Me, too.

But citations are not forthcoming.  You People can just look it up yourself.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 01, 2014, 04:15:43 am
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 01, 2014, 04:16:24 am
This reminds me of a study I read where the scientists trained monkeys to believe that the ladder/banana experiment had taken place and that certain lessons (relating to learned behaviour and tradition) could be drawn from it. The scientists then severed the connection between the teachings or new beliefs and the experiment by dismissing the notion that the experiment had occurred at all and found that the monkeys, given updated information about their 'evidence', continued to operate as if the demonstrably false information were true.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 01, 2014, 04:17:40 am
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

So, it's fake, but we should treat it as real?

Sort of like the free market, then.

 :spittake:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: omnihil on April 01, 2014, 07:54:47 am
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.

Not exactly what I meant, but I agree with you on what you said.  I'm not saying that even though the whole thing was fiction, we should treat it like it's real.  I'm saying the fiction paints a picture of a behavior that does actually exist in people.  Much like many fictional movies will make people think about behaviors in themselves they may not have been previously aware of, because they were able to relate to the characters in the movie, and the situations that they found themselves in, how they reacted, etc.  The movie plot should not be treated as fact, but the message in the plot is relevant and helps build perspective.  However, the fact that the "experiment" was posted to trick people does disqualify it as a legitimate fictional art, but that's a different argument. 

So what I meant was, oh well too bad it's fake, but at least it gets the point across about behavior that people actually partake in.  There are truly people out there who simply say "Praise Jesus" because they were taught to do so, even if they have a warped understanding of his teachings.  They may not even believe in him, but just adopted the personality and lifestyle.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: LMNO on April 01, 2014, 01:53:03 pm
Ok, you seem to be saying that your example is false, but the behavior shown is true.

In that case, you should really be looking for an example that is, in fact, true.  That would bolster your case, adding evidence to your argument.

What you have now is best known as "truthiness", in that since it feels true, it must actually be true.  This can be demonstrably shown as false, since it also "feels" like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, for example.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 02:20:31 pm
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.

Not exactly what I meant, but I agree with you on what you said.  I'm not saying that even though the whole thing was fiction, we should treat it like it's real.  I'm saying the fiction paints a picture of a behavior that does actually exist in people.  Much like many fictional movies will make people think about behaviors in themselves they may not have been previously aware of, because they were able to relate to the characters in the movie, and the situations that they found themselves in, how they reacted, etc.  The movie plot should not be treated as fact, but the message in the plot is relevant and helps build perspective.  However, the fact that the "experiment" was posted to trick people does disqualify it as a legitimate fictional art, but that's a different argument. 

So what I meant was, oh well too bad it's fake, but at least it gets the point across about behavior that people actually partake in.  There are truly people out there who simply say "Praise Jesus" because they were taught to do so, even if they have a warped understanding of his teachings.  They may not even believe in him, but just adopted the personality and lifestyle.

So far, it's just bad signal.  An Andrew Wakefield running around the internet, posing as science.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: omnihil on April 01, 2014, 07:29:07 pm
I understand your points, and just feel like miscommunication is what's taking place here.

I have already listed a real world example.  Christianity, well known for it's zealots worldwide, is in fact an example of humans acting as the monkeys did, blindly following the rituals and mantras because they were taught them by their predecessors.  Based on my observations of many people in society, not everyone who claims Jesus to be their savior received this information from a "life-changing" revelation as brought to them by an angel in a dream, or while meditating on a sunrise, felt the voice of Jesus Christ guiding them to salvation.  Instead, they simply enjoy the company and acceptance of the other people at Church when they do so.

I know, I know, who gives a shit.  This was meant to be a simple point, a mere statement, that I'm having to draw out to try to communicate effectively, so all in all this argument isn't that meaningful.  "Who gives a shit?"  This sentence in itself is a colloquialism, and those are often adopted by people without thinking about the origin of the statement.  It is common for people who are learning new languages, to not understand the local dialects and colloquialisms, because they are used to communicate meanings that are not literal translations of the phrase.  Colloquialisms are other examples of how people accept behaviors as others, and repeat those behaviors without knowing the origin of the behavior. 

So forget the monkey experiment entirely for a moment.  The message I was trying to communicate is:  "Sometimes people just copy others peoples behavior, without considering other options or understanding the origin of their behavior."  If you don't agree with this, then perhaps you haven't studied psychology or observed human behavior on that level.  Now then, it just so happens, that this is the message that the "monkey experiment meme" was trying to communicate, with a fictional illustration of the behavior as performed by monkeys in a fictional cage with a ladder.  Just because a turtle never raced a hare, doesn't mean that sometimes taking your time is a better way to accomplish a goal than racing through the motions as fast as you can.  If upon discovering that a turtle never raced a hare, a person decided that there's no wisdom in patience and focus because the story wasn't true, they would be limiting themselves.

But honestly, who gives a shit.  Just trying to clearly communicate what I was saying, not trying to say this is very important to understand.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 01, 2014, 07:30:21 pm
This was meant to be a simple point, a mere statement, that I'm having to draw out to try to communicate effectively, so all in all this argument isn't that meaningful. 

Welcome to PD.com
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: LMNO on April 01, 2014, 07:34:03 pm
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on April 01, 2014, 08:42:42 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 08:51:17 pm
I understand your points, and just feel like miscommunication is what's taking place here.

I have already listed a real world example.  Christianity, well known for it's zealots worldwide, is in fact an example of humans acting as the monkeys did, blindly following the rituals and mantras because they were taught them by their predecessors. 

Wow.  Incorrect AND offensive, all wrapped up in one neat package.

Let's try this one:

Basic mechanical knowledge is passed on from journeyman to apprentice.  The apprentice is not taught the underlying theory of, for example, fluid dynamics, because it isn't necessary.  That is learned, if ever, far later in one's career.  What the apprentice needs to know is how to space the impeller so that a pump will operate properly.

Therefore, maintenance is bad.

Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 08:52:08 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

And we all know that "Christianity" is one monolithic bloc that never, ever debates within itself.  It's just 2000 years of rote behavior.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 08:53:42 pm
This was meant to be a simple point, a mere statement, that I'm having to draw out to try to communicate effectively, so all in all this argument isn't that meaningful. 

Oh, I know.  You were explaining our hivemind to us in terms that we would be able to understand.

It must be rough, living in a world where everyone's doin' it wrong.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: N E T on April 01, 2014, 09:24:21 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

Here's an interesting theory that xenophobic collectivist societies may have developed as a protection against infection:

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 01, 2014, 09:40:51 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

Here's an interesting theory that xenophobic collectivist societies may have developed as a protection against infection:

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/

That's a fascinating article, thanks Net.

An interesting paragraph that popped out to me:

Quote
collectivist cultures tend to be both more xenophobic and more ethnocentric than individualist cultures.

It occurred to me that the USA tends to consider itself individualistic, and yet tends to display a considerable amount of xenophobia.  But, this is drifting off topic.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 09:42:45 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

Here's an interesting theory that xenophobic collectivist societies may have developed as a protection against infection:

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/

That's a fascinating article, thanks Net.

An interesting paragraph that popped out to me:

Quote
collectivist cultures tend to be both more xenophobic and more ethnocentric than individualist cultures.

It occurred to me that the USA tends to consider itself individualistic, and yet tends to display a considerable amount of xenophobia.  But, this is drifting off topic.

America likes to believe it's individualist, but it is of course no such thing.  We demand a level of conformity on important matters that is unheard of in Europe (excepting Britian) and Canada.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 01, 2014, 09:46:19 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

Here's an interesting theory that xenophobic collectivist societies may have developed as a protection against infection:

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/

That's a fascinating article, thanks Net.

An interesting paragraph that popped out to me:

Quote
collectivist cultures tend to be both more xenophobic and more ethnocentric than individualist cultures.

It occurred to me that the USA tends to consider itself individualistic, and yet tends to display a considerable amount of xenophobia.  But, this is drifting off topic.

America likes to believe it's individualist, but it is of course no such thing.  We demand a level of conformity on important matters that is unheard of in Europe (excepting Britian) and Canada.

Need we look any further than enforced lawn maintenance ordinances?
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 09:48:20 pm
Need we look any further than enforced lawn maintenance ordinances?

Not really, but let's do it anyway.   :lulz:

"You're either for us or against us."
- George W Bush

"It is treasonous to disagree with the president in wartime."
- Right wing nuts in 2003/2005, left wing nuts from 2009-present.

"People had better watch what they believe."
- Tucker Carlson, with his bare face hanging out, on Crossfire, 2005.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 01, 2014, 09:50:19 pm
Need we look any further than enforced lawn maintenance ordinances?

Not really, but let's do it anyway.   :lulz:

"You're either for us or against us."
- George W Bush

"It is treasonous to disagree with the president in wartime."
- Right wing nuts in 2003/2005, left wing nuts from 2009-present.

"People had better watch what they believe."
- Tucker Carlson, with his bare face hanging out, on Crossfire, 2005.

Yep, and look how more than half the country treated that woman from the Dixie Chicks when she simply said she was embarrassed to come from the same state as the President...

I should point out that we have lots of those types north of the border too.  I'm related to a whack of them.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2014, 09:51:03 pm
Need we look any further than enforced lawn maintenance ordinances?

Not really, but let's do it anyway.   :lulz:

"You're either for us or against us."
- George W Bush

"It is treasonous to disagree with the president in wartime."
- Right wing nuts in 2003/2005, left wing nuts from 2009-present.

"People had better watch what they believe."
- Tucker Carlson, with his bare face hanging out, on Crossfire, 2005.

Yep, and look how more than half the country treated that woman from the Dixie Chicks when she simply said she was embarrassed to come from the same state as the President...

She and her pals cried all the way to the bank from their sold-out European tour that lasted 5 years.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 01, 2014, 09:54:54 pm
Need we look any further than enforced lawn maintenance ordinances?

Not really, but let's do it anyway.   :lulz:

"You're either for us or against us."
- George W Bush

"It is treasonous to disagree with the president in wartime."
- Right wing nuts in 2003/2005, left wing nuts from 2009-present.

"People had better watch what they believe."
- Tucker Carlson, with his bare face hanging out, on Crossfire, 2005.

Yep, and look how more than half the country treated that woman from the Dixie Chicks when she simply said she was embarrassed to come from the same state as the President...

She and her pals cried all the way to the bank from their sold-out European tour that lasted 5 years.

 :lulz:

Maybe that was a bad example.   :lol:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 02, 2014, 12:10:35 am
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Pæs on April 02, 2014, 12:14:27 am
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:

Way to seek herd approval by agreeing with the anti-monkey-story agenda, Nigel. You don't even know why we don't like the monkey story, you're just dismissing it because that's the way it's always been done.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 02, 2014, 12:18:34 am
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:

Way to seek herd approval by agreeing with the anti-monkey-story agenda, Nigel. You don't even know why we don't like the monkey story, you're just dismissing it because that's the way it's always been done.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Luna on April 02, 2014, 12:52:02 am
So...  "This made-up story confirms my beliefs, so we should treat it like it's true."

Because that's the way it's always been done, I guess...
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 02, 2014, 05:34:26 am
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

And we all know that "Christianity" is one monolithic bloc that never, ever debates within itself.  It's just 2000 years of rote behavior.

2000 years of rote behavior. 200000 different kinds of Christianity. Makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 02, 2014, 05:38:29 am
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:

It would be interesting to know just how much psychology omnihil has actually studied, since, well, s/he brought it up. Let's all pull out our credentials.

I have taken one college behavioral science class. Sociology. My professor was the shit. I have +1 behavioral science.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 02, 2014, 05:41:44 am
Also, I once read the Communist Manifesto, and started to wonder just how much wife-swapping was actually going on in 19th Century Europe, since that was a "no, you!" retort that Marx gave to the bourgeoisie.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: LMNO on April 02, 2014, 12:49:50 pm
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:

Hacks, the lot of 'em.

I bet you none of them ever created a memeimage that was loosely based on a misunderstanding of a metaphor.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 02, 2014, 11:10:31 pm
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

But LMNO, it isn't like any of us have ever studied psychology, or had conversations about social conformity or conformity experiments before.

Real conformity experiments that actually happened, that is.

Not a one of us is familiar with Asch, Milgram, or Zimbardo either for that matter. :lol:

It would be interesting to know just how much psychology omnihil has actually studied, since, well, s/he brought it up. Let's all pull out our credentials.

I have taken one college behavioral science class. Sociology. My professor was the shit. I have +1 behavioral science.

Two years so far... uh, eight classes I think? No, nine.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 02, 2014, 11:11:19 pm
And then there's Johnny, who's working on his psychology grad degree I think.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: LMNO on April 02, 2014, 11:12:46 pm
A small stack of books.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Reginald Ret on April 03, 2014, 11:29:15 am
1 class of behavioural biology.
Raised by a pychologist and a voracious reader. I have no idea how much i actually read about the subject but it was constantly around.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 03, 2014, 03:57:19 pm
I've done a 40-odd year residential course in batshit crazy. Unfortunately I have little or no experience in non-pathological psychology, beyond anecdotal evidence that such a thing exists, so it's a kinda myopic picture :oops:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 03, 2014, 04:05:11 pm
All my learning on such topics has been of the autodidact variety.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 03, 2014, 06:45:38 pm
Somehow, I have a feeling he's not coming back to argue the point.  :lol:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 03, 2014, 06:48:22 pm
Somehow, I have a feeling he's not coming back to argue the point.  :lol:

Who?
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Cramulus on April 03, 2014, 08:06:15 pm





Here's MY version:






The Monkey Experiment
   There’s a famous experiment where they keep a bunch of monkeys in a room for an indefinite amount of time. There’s a big white staircase leading up out of the room. Every time a monkey climbs to the top of the staircase, he gets blasted back down the stairs with a hose. When this happens, every monkey in the room also gets blasted with water. This makes them very angry.

    Soon, the monkeys have figured it out: beat the shit out of any monkey that starts to climb the stairs. That’s the new rule.

    At some point, they remove a monkey and send in a new one. He learns the rule quickly: don’t climb the stairs. And if we’re beating somebody up, join in. One by one, they replace each monkey with a new one who has to learn the rule.

    At some point they can turn off the hose. The monkeys will reliably prevent escape. Policing the stairs has become a cultural norm. Eventually, they have this population of monkeys who are trained to beat up any monkey that tries to escape, but don’t even understand why.

    The experiment is run by interns who are paid in course credit. Occasionally, an intern finishes the semester and leaves. New interns join the team and everybody explains how to feed the monkeys and how to record the data. But at this point, none of the interns are from the original group, none of them have met the scientists leading this project. Most of the interns don’t fully understand the point of the experiment.

    The scientist who began the experiment left long ago. Other researchers were assigned to the project by an administrator in order to keep this valuable experiment running. None of the remaining scientists are actually authors of the paper, or even understand what it’s about. 

    The administrator supervising the project isn’t terribly involved with it. He just prolongs the experiment because it’s his department’s main source of funding. But he didn’t begin this project, he just inherited it from his predecessor, who is on a leave of absence and hasn’t been seen in some time.

    The company funding the experiment has a sum of money they spend annually on scientific research, mainly for tax reasons. But the person who reads and approves grants left last year. The last time anybody saw the man, he handed a huge folder to some new kid and said “make sure these stay funded.” Then he disappeared up a long staircase leading into the sky.

___________________________________________________________

Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: LMNO on April 03, 2014, 08:21:14 pm
Ok, that pushed into pure parable, and improved on it. Cool story, bro.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 03, 2014, 09:14:27 pm
I got an actual sense of WHOA from reading that. 10/10, much better than the original. Permission to repost next time I see the monkey meme on Facebook?
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Hoopla on April 03, 2014, 09:20:35 pm
That is SO much better than the original.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 03, 2014, 09:41:54 pm





Here's MY version:






The Monkey Experiment
   There’s a famous experiment where they keep a bunch of monkeys in a room for an indefinite amount of time. There’s a big white staircase leading up out of the room. Every time a monkey climbs to the top of the staircase, he gets blasted back down the stairs with a hose. When this happens, every monkey in the room also gets blasted with water. This makes them very angry.

    Soon, the monkeys have figured it out: beat the shit out of any monkey that starts to climb the stairs. That’s the new rule.

    At some point, they remove a monkey and send in a new one. He learns the rule quickly: don’t climb the stairs. And if we’re beating somebody up, join in. One by one, they replace each monkey with a new one who has to learn the rule.

    At some point they can turn off the hose. The monkeys will reliably prevent escape. Policing the stairs has become a cultural norm. Eventually, they have this population of monkeys who are trained to beat up any monkey that tries to escape, but don’t even understand why.

    The experiment is run by interns who are paid in course credit. Occasionally, an intern finishes the semester and leaves. New interns join the team and everybody explains how to feed the monkeys and how to record the data. But at this point, none of the interns are from the original group, none of them have met the scientists leading this project. Most of the interns don’t fully understand the point of the experiment.

    The scientist who began the experiment left long ago. Other researchers were assigned to the project by an administrator in order to keep this valuable experiment running. None of the remaining scientists are actually authors of the paper, or even understand what it’s about. 

    The administrator supervising the project isn’t terribly involved with it. He just prolongs the experiment because it’s his department’s main source of funding. But he didn’t begin this project, he just inherited it from his predecessor, who is on a leave of absence and hasn’t been seen in some time.

    The company funding the experiment has a sum of money they spend annually on scientific research, mainly for tax reasons. But the person who reads and approves grants left last year. The last time anybody saw the man, he handed a huge folder to some new kid and said “make sure these stay funded.” Then he disappeared up a long staircase leading into the sky.

___________________________________________________________

I know it's only April but this has to be a strong contender for post of the decade!

:mittens:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Reginald Ret on April 03, 2014, 10:11:16 pm
Well played Cramulus.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: East Coast Hustle on April 04, 2014, 12:48:05 pm
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

Here's an interesting theory that xenophobic collectivist societies may have developed as a protection against infection:

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/

That's a fascinating article, thanks Net.

An interesting paragraph that popped out to me:

Quote
collectivist cultures tend to be both more xenophobic and more ethnocentric than individualist cultures.

It occurred to me that the USA tends to consider itself individualistic, and yet tends to display a considerable amount of xenophobia.  But, this is drifting off topic.

America likes to believe it's individualist, but it is of course no such thing.  We demand a level of conformity on important matters that is unheard of in Europe (excepting Britian) and Canada.

It's also been my experience that our xenophobia is weak when compared to the real thing as practiced in many other parts of the world. We're actually (sadly) a pretty tolerant bunch, comparatively.
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Cramulus on April 04, 2014, 01:39:57 pm
I got an actual sense of WHOA from reading that. 10/10, much better than the original. Permission to repost next time I see the monkey meme on Facebook?

be my guest!
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Telarus on April 04, 2014, 06:11:38 pm
Excellent re-frame Cram!

:mittens:
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: East Coast Hustle on April 06, 2014, 02:40:55 am
Yeah, that was pretty dope!
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 07, 2014, 07:40:40 am
That was awesome!
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: rong on March 07, 2018, 08:58:33 pm




Here's MY version:






The Monkey Experiment
   There’s a famous experiment where they keep a bunch of monkeys in a room for an indefinite amount of time. There’s a big white staircase leading up out of the room. Every time a monkey climbs to the top of the staircase, he gets blasted back down the stairs with a hose. When this happens, every monkey in the room also gets blasted with water. This makes them very angry.

    Soon, the monkeys have figured it out: beat the shit out of any monkey that starts to climb the stairs. That’s the new rule.

    At some point, they remove a monkey and send in a new one. He learns the rule quickly: don’t climb the stairs. And if we’re beating somebody up, join in. One by one, they replace each monkey with a new one who has to learn the rule.

    At some point they can turn off the hose. The monkeys will reliably prevent escape. Policing the stairs has become a cultural norm. Eventually, they have this population of monkeys who are trained to beat up any monkey that tries to escape, but don’t even understand why.

    The experiment is run by interns who are paid in course credit. Occasionally, an intern finishes the semester and leaves. New interns join the team and everybody explains how to feed the monkeys and how to record the data. But at this point, none of the interns are from the original group, none of them have met the scientists leading this project. Most of the interns don’t fully understand the point of the experiment.

    The scientist who began the experiment left long ago. Other researchers were assigned to the project by an administrator in order to keep this valuable experiment running. None of the remaining scientists are actually authors of the paper, or even understand what it’s about. 

    The administrator supervising the project isn’t terribly involved with it. He just prolongs the experiment because it’s his department’s main source of funding. But he didn’t begin this project, he just inherited it from his predecessor, who is on a leave of absence and hasn’t been seen in some time.

    The company funding the experiment has a sum of money they spend annually on scientific research, mainly for tax reasons. But the person who reads and approves grants left last year. The last time anybody saw the man, he handed a huge folder to some new kid and said “make sure these stay funded.” Then he disappeared up a long staircase leading into the sky.

___________________________________________________________
Still beautiful, man
Title: Re: Experiments with monkeys
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 08, 2018, 02:05:48 am
I like how underneath there's clickbait scaremongery links to articles about protecting yourself from manipulation.Like, t

he articles on the other side ought to just say "don't follow clickbait links dumbass"