Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 11:33:38 am

Title: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 11:33:38 am
For those who missed the latest mass spree killing in the USA, there's some FUCKED UP going on with it.

Beyond the usual things of possible mental illness and gun control, this one is pretty notable due to the levels of outright blatant and highly worrying misogyny.

Quote
Pretty sure P3nt's familiar with the Onion.

This is a bag of creepy shit, somewhat related. Turns out the shooter was part of a "PUAhate" forum, trolled bodybuilders and much, much more.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9jm67Lf42GUJ:puahate.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D139474+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Warning - Nothing specific, its all fucking awful.
The worst part of that for me is that "PUAHate" isn't a bunch of people who hate PUAs because of their slimy, creepy, rape-y, objectifying ways, they hate PUAs because they feel "ripped off" the PUA techniques couldn't get them the sex they DESERVED.

I can't wait until PUAs and MRAs are classified as "hate groups".


This whole PUAhate thing is actually quite incredible. You've got some Incel (Involuntarily celibate) folk who have clearly in some cases paid substantial sums to PUA's, failed and decided they've not got a chance because that guys has (insert long description in what appears to be pseudo medical terms to describe face/physique.)

I can't stress how fucked up I find all of this. At this point the only possible positive I can see is the start of a decent backlash against PUA and it's associated areas. I'm literally waiting for the first big PUA to come out and say that PUA is OK, it's PUAhate that's where all the problems are. One of them is going to be stupid enough, mainly because of the size of their egos not allowing them to not be dumb in this regard.

I've ended up in a couple of arguments about whether this chap was actually mentally ill or not. Given the youtube video I'm strongly leaning towards a yes, for something like a severe narcissistic disorder of some kind at the least. As best as I can tell there's 3 main issues at play here and I can't quite determine which is the biggest factor. I suspect there's a very strong link between the mental health, gun control and PUAhate issues that have ended up in a very fucked up negative feedback loop.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 12:02:43 pm
The way I see it, it's an unfortunate side effect of natural selection - the ones with the gaudy plumage won't get to pass their genome on.

The stereotypical basement dwelling sock fucker might be amusing to those with average looks, personalities and self image but they're actually a pretty wretched specimen, with an unrequited biological urge that's up there with eating and breathing in terms of urgency who, quite understandably in my opinion, develop a lot of serious neuroses, leading to increasingly desperate and irrational behavior.

The beautiful people, meanwhile, do what they always do - act all outraged and brand them monsters and wave pitchforks. The poor fucks need help and support but the only place that's coming from is Jack the lad conmen selling pussy flavoured snake oil.

It's our mess. Who's going to clean it up?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 12:11:54 pm
Well, common decency dictates if you make mess, you clean it up.

The rest of your assessment I'd broadly agree with. What a sensible solution to this would be, I have no fucking idea.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 12:29:52 pm
I'm literally waiting for the first big PUA to come out and say that PUA is OK, it's PUAhate that's where all the problems are. One of them is going to be stupid enough, mainly because of the size of their egos not allowing them to not be dumb in this regard.

Ahem. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/24/elliot_rodger_the_pick_up_artist_community_s_predictable_horrible_response.html)

Quote
PUAs who were not immediately connected to Rodger were quick to capitalize on the news, suggesting that if Rodger had been a more devoted PUA protégé, they could have gotten him laid and prevented violence against women. A PUA site called Strategic Dating Coach—which sells DVDs on how to “turn a conversation with a woman sexual in no time flat”—commented on one of Rodger's YouTube videos, where he despairs about his dating life as he films a couple kissing in Santa Barbara. “THIS is why we do what we do,” Strategic Dating Coach weighed in. “TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don't ‘suffer injustice.’ ”

Members of Pick-Up Artist RooshV’s forums piled on. “Game saves lives,” one member said. “I'm trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we're the solution to this sort of murder rampage,” Roosh himself weighed in. “He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.”
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Raz Tech on May 29, 2014, 12:37:50 pm
but exposing him to game may have saved lives.”
I can't believe that I just read that. I'm gonna go build a rocket ship and live the rest of my days out on the moon, and the note that I leave behind to explain where I have gone is just going to be that article printed out, with that particular quote highlighted.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Igor on May 29, 2014, 12:57:18 pm
Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 12:59:27 pm
but exposing him to game may have saved lives.”
I can't believe that I just read that. I'm gonna go build a rocket ship and live the rest of my days out on the moon, and the note that I leave behind to explain where I have gone is just going to be that article printed out, with that particular quote highlighted.

Dude, you'll need serious game if you're going to get laid on the moon!
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 01:06:04 pm
Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.

Struck me too. There's probably reams of studies that could be conducted on that term alone.

LMNO, well. Yes. Ugh. Using it as a marketing method though, that's a low I honestly didn't see coming. I really should have in hindsight.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 01:06:28 pm
This whole thing is making me

 :cpd:
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 01:10:17 pm
Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.
ASL?

18 CIS HET INCEL SEATTLE
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 01:23:15 pm
This whole thing is making me

 :cpd:

What's worse, is that given a few conversations I've had with people, particularly women regarding this is the inevitable kind of language use that comes out. It seems that most people who have any kind of opinion on this are in full on dig-in-heels-start-screeching mode. Most of the opinions are perfectly valid, but if there was every a way of showing the importance of shit like E-prime in a argument, this would be it.

Seriously, let me know if it's just me but it feels like "ALL/EVERY MAN/WOMAN does INTERCHANGEABLE THING which is Badwrong. WOMEN/MEN(reverse) never do these things. No gray areas, no exceptions. People are just too pissed off because of their own particular set of reasons and there appears to be fuck all real communication on the subject.

The PUA's, needless to say, don't fucking help. At all.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 01:33:05 pm
The #NotAllMen vs #YesAllWomen thing is fascinating, largely due to some of the conversations we've had here, regarding privilege. 

#NotAllMen is true, but it's also heel-digging, dismissive, and defensive.  It deflects and distracts from the main point being made, which is the experience of being a woman living in a culture where males tend to have more privilege.

#YesAllWomen seems to also be true (I'm not a woman, so I can't fully speak to it), and it attempts to override #NotAllMen by saying, "It doesn't matter if YOU don't do it, it's still happens to me every day."  It's also probably the most powerful version of this message that I've seen in quite some time.

In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 01:46:50 pm
The #NotAllMen vs #YesAllWomen thing is fascinating, largely due to some of the conversations we've had here, regarding privilege. 

#NotAllMen is true, but it's also heel-digging, dismissive, and defensive.  It deflects and distracts from the main point being made, which is the experience of being a woman living in a culture where males tend to have more privilege.

#YesAllWomen seems to also be true (I'm not a woman, so I can't fully speak to it), and it attempts to override #NotAllMen by saying, "It doesn't matter if YOU don't do it, it's still happens to me every day."  It's also probably the most powerful version of this message that I've seen in quite some time.

In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

Notallmen is dismissive and dumb.

But then boiling down complex issues to a hashtag phrase is just as bad, the only places I've seen these used are tumblr and twitter.

Tumblr I would find to be bankrupt in terms of credibility of discussion of any kind of important issue, and twitter is worse, I would dismiss the #notallmen crowd as quickly as I would any activism on those sites. Remember when everyone turned their avatars green for the Iranian Elections, sure made the world a better place.

And #FindKony, complete success that definitely made a difference.

Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 01:47:55 pm
#NotAllHashtags
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cain on May 29, 2014, 01:56:18 pm
Maybe, but I'm still inclined to agree with Faust.  Social networking is a toxic culture of posturing, contrarian middlebrow "thinking", popularity contests, anti-intellectual intellectuals, professional cultural warriors, "new media" darlings, false equivalency, personal insults, doxxing and perpetual line-crossing.  I'm thinking chiefly of Twitter and to a lesser extent tumblr here.

It relies less on evidence than witty rejoinders and one-liners, and is amazingly vulnerable to epistemic closure via blocking and similar.  What most issues discussed on those sites devolve into is sticks to beat one's personal enemies with, regardless of the good intentions that may exist behind them.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cain on May 29, 2014, 01:59:58 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 02:01:26 pm
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 02:19:36 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

That's all well and good but could you boil his motivation down to 140 characters please, it makes it easier for the microblogging platform to discuss.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Sita on May 29, 2014, 02:20:35 pm
Ok, this explains all the notallmen stuff I've been seeing lately (mostly jokes)
Especially by those that initially read it as 'no tall men' instead of 'not all men'
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 02:21:12 pm
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?

You seem to imply there's a way for a woman to easily identify which man might be a danger to them, in a culture that sends bad signal about cross-gender power dynamics 24/7.

A woman feels anxious and unsafe in an environment that largely portrays women as second-class citizens and posessions, where any random man could pose a threat.

When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 02:31:46 pm
I think you've pushed his position a little further than intended.

I think what Pent was saying was more that you don't make progress by actively alienating people trying to help. In fact, you probably make the opposite outcome happen because you've not really convinced or communicated with anyone, you've just pissed them off.

Again, anecdotal for what it's worth, but I've been on the end of some particularly scathing attacks of late over behaviours I've exhibited(and I must add, endevoured to correct over the years) and it's not made me more sympathetic or empathetic with women, it's made me think that some women who I previously considered friends and respected are actually a bit fucking crazy. This is probably quite an unfair assessment but I'm unsure how many personal attacks you really should endure before saying enough.


Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 02:34:22 pm
When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

Depends entirely on how that is expressed.

The example pent posted was Literally the cliché MEN = SHIT

In a discourse that actually has an interest in conveying a message, of planting it in a persons conciousness and getting it to take root the key part is in establishing a dialogue.

The above example puts a swift end to anyone listening to anyone else.

It is why you have to question the motives of those who  profess social change on these sites, if they actually wanted to make a difference than their approach would be different.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 02:35:10 pm
I think you've pushed his position a little further than intended.

I think what Pent was saying was more that you don't make progress by actively alienating people trying to help. In fact, you probably make the opposite outcome happen because you've not really convinced or communicated with anyone, you've just pissed them off.

Again, anecdotal for what it's worth, but I've been on the end of some particularly scathing attacks of late over behaviours I've exhibited(and I must add, endevoured to correct over the years) and it's not made me more sympathetic or empathetic with women, it's made me think that some women who I previously considered friends and respected are actually a bit fucking crazy. This is probably quite an unfair assessment but I'm unsure how many personal attacks you really should endure before saying enough.
this.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Raz Tech on May 29, 2014, 02:38:44 pm
I feel that part of the issue is that both parties have people who so blatantly think that their particular point of view is correct. 

The male point of view is obscured by men who say well all this stuff is true because men are better than women and more important to society and all that crap.

On the other side, there's women who think the only way to fix the issue is by handicapping all men.  A lot of them also have conflicting views on what equality should entail.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 02:42:12 pm
When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

(snip)

It is why you have to question the motives of those who  profess social change on these sites, if they actually wanted to make a difference than their approach would be different.

Another thing I seem to be seeing is a big desire to talk about the problem yet anyone who tries to discuss possible solutions seems to be someone's enemy, for some reason. Talking about how serious the problem is has become more important than actively trying to solve the serious problem.

To me, this is the mental equivalent of being in a house that is on fire and insisting it's better to run around inside and panic than get the fuck out of the door. Then beating anyone who tries to leave because they "Just don't understand how serious the problem is"
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 02:48:39 pm
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?

You seem to imply there's a way for a woman to easily identify which man might be a danger to them, in a culture that sends bad signal about cross-gender power dynamics 24/7.

A woman feels anxious and unsafe in an environment that largely portrays women as second-class citizens and posessions, where any random man could pose a threat.

When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

Most women I know seem quite happy and relaxed about life, having mostly non traumatic encounters with men. Most guys are the same. Now and again I encounter some nutjob (not as much IRL as online) who thinks everyone is out to get them and they'll be attacked if they walk outside the door. The truth is, it rarely fucking happens. It makes the headlines because "Today 7 billion-odd people went about their day quite happily and didn't get raped or beaten up or killed" is the kind of news that nobody is interested in.

So yeah, there's a huge issue with women not getting quite as much money and other shit as guys but let's put it in perspective - the general trend is toward things gradually improving and long may it continue to both do so and become less gradual. Meanwhile the rape and murder thing is an outlier and I take personal offence to the "this male raped a female this one time so I don't trust you, personally" - bullshit.

Someone thinks that way then, yeah, fuck 'em. Most people don't. Stick the shoe on the other foot - this one time a gay guy raped a straight guy - how should I feel about all the gays?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 03:10:31 pm
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 03:31:45 pm
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?

There's not a whole hell of a lot I can do to help either but one is annoying and whiny and the other is generally fun to be around. Make your drama about men and women or gays and straights or blind v's deaf or whatever and you'll get a whole bunch of fucks on both sides of the argument, whining about how they're worse off. Who's got it tougher. Meanwhile there's a lot of folks on both sides who aren't even arguing about who has it worse, because they're too busy taking care of business.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 03:33:54 pm
But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 04:17:35 pm
In this thread, five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis and one of them concludes the correct response is go fuck yourself.

Every woman you know knows someone who was raped. I defy you to find a single woman so sheltered this is not the case. Every woman has had someone skeev on her at one point or another, or give her shit for not meeting some arbitrary standard of attractiveness for her right to consume oxygen in public. It's not all men, it's not most men, but it's everywhere in the culture and you don't see it because you don't have to. This guy killed people because he listened to a culture that says he as a cishetwhitemiddleclassmale is the protagonist and is entitled to come out on top and get a pretty girl as a trophy. Not everyone who is infected by that awful meme ends up a murderer, but FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK CAN WE STOP SPREADING THAT MEME AROUND ALREADY? IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cain on May 29, 2014, 04:35:10 pm
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 04:46:27 pm
I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 04:55:24 pm
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 05:05:24 pm
Q.G / Sita / Nigel / Anyone else with similar genitalia - I can't overstate how much your perspective is worth in this thread.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 05:12:39 pm
Same here. I don't want to speak for you, or assume I know what you've experienced.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 29, 2014, 05:18:50 pm
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?


You're equating traumatic response to attitude? I kind of think that operant conditioning runs a little deeper than looking in the mirror and saying, "jeepers, you're great and nothing's going to hold you down."

Some "fighter's" get their legs blown off by a land-mine, strap on their PMA and come back stronger...and by stronger, I mean, all smiles and affirmations until they're rolling down the road one day and see a mound of dirt that causes them to come a bit unglued. Is that a function of some erroneous conclusions that all mounds of dirt blow legs off, or something a bit more on the operant level?

Is it really possible to talk meaningfully about these sorts of subjects without putting that distinction out there front and center?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 05:29:42 pm
Quote
For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

Just wanted to add to this. The reporting, prosecution and conviction rates for rape have always been horrifically low. And yet rape is a serious criminal offence western nations and many others. There is a fundamental problem with the law not being enforced effectively in this area and I'd suggest that this is a major societal factor. Change the rates for reporting, prosecution and conviction upward and I bet you'll see a big positive change across society.

This leads to the problem of how many police forces act like old boys clubs and makes me consider the police as probably a key part of the problem too. Given some of the tales I've heard when people have tried to report rape ("What were you wearing / you asked for it go away) I'm  on uncertain ground again. Social media may force action on a subject but there's that whole fucking "innocent until proven guility" thing. How can awareness against an event/person be raised without causing potential mistrial / trial by media problems? Again, no idea but I'd think perhaps rape / sexual offences units to shift to a largely women orientated / operated / controlled situation may see some progress. With appropriate funding, naturally. I doubt it would fix much but it's a starting point.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 05:43:02 pm
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?


You're equating traumatic response to attitude? I kind of think that operant conditioning runs a little deeper than looking in the mirror and saying, "jeepers, you're great and nothing's going to hold you down."

Some "fighter's" get their legs blown off by a land-mine, strap on their PMA and come back stronger...and by stronger, I mean, all smiles and affirmations until they're rolling down the road one day and see a mound of dirt that causes them to come a bit unglued. Is that a function of some erroneous conclusions that all mounds of dirt blow legs off, or something a bit more on the operant level?

Is it really possible to talk meaningfully about these sorts of subjects without putting that distinction out there front and center?

What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 29, 2014, 05:52:55 pm
If I'm reading this right, p3nt, you're butthurt that an experience you had that, by your own admission, has nothing to do with this issue, wasn't accepted as equivalent when trying to discuss it? And your conclusion isn't that gender violence should stop, it's that people need to learn how to deal with it and be better for it?

Is that what you're saying? Because that sounds nauseating.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 05:56:38 pm
Quote
The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 06:08:11 pm
P3nt, the fuck are you on?

THE GOAL IS FOR PEOPLE TO STOP PERPETUATING A CULTURE THAT TREATS [X] LIKE SHIT.

That is exactly the goal. If you're not up for it that is seriously deranged. It's not an easy fight, and it's not a fast one, and it's not one that ever is completely accomplished because there's always some asshole who really can't wrap their head around not being an asshole, but that doesn't make it an unworthy goal. You can say it's not your fight, because reasons, but all those reasons boil down to "I don't have to care because it's not happening to me." And yes, "I don't want to get involved because I was not invited in a way I like" is a permutation of that. You have the privilege of ignoring this shit if you want to. Not because you're free to do as thou wilt, but because it doesn't affect you. If I choose not to give a fuck about feminism, I still have to deal with shitheels who were never taught what no means. Even if they're not rapists. I cannot stress that enough. Go actually read some of the long form YesAllWomen essays and tell me this is all blown out of proportion or a matter of bad attitude. Shit is fucked up and bullshit, and we have to talk about it or it will never get better.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 07:44:48 pm
In other news, Excene Cervenka (Co-Singer of X, legendary LA punk band) has aparently gone crazy, and believe the shooting (as well as Sandy Hook and, of course, 9/11) was a hoax.

http://radio.com/2014/05/28/80s-punk-star-exene-cervenka-claims-santa-barbara-shooting-was-a-hoax/


Sigh.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Salty on May 29, 2014, 07:55:33 pm
BREAKING NEWS:

ENTROPY VANQUISHED BY VANISHING VICTIMS!

NOTHING SET TO CHANGE FOR THE NEXT FEW MILLENIA!

LOCAL EXPERTS SUGGEST: BATTEN DOWN THE HATCHES AND GRAB YOUR BOOTS BY THE STRAPS.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 07:59:02 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 08:00:21 pm
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

How dare these bitches alienate the men who would otherwise be on their side by relating their experiences?? If they would just SHUT UP, the Good Guys would handle it.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 08:02:40 pm
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

Yeah, this.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 08:11:21 pm
In this thread, five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis and one of them concludes the correct response is go fuck yourself.

Every woman you know knows someone who was raped. I defy you to find a single woman so sheltered this is not the case. Every woman has had someone skeev on her at one point or another, or give her shit for not meeting some arbitrary standard of attractiveness for her right to consume oxygen in public. It's not all men, it's not most men, but it's everywhere in the culture and you don't see it because you don't have to. This guy killed people because he listened to a culture that says he as a cishetwhitemiddleclassmale is the protagonist and is entitled to come out on top and get a pretty girl as a trophy. Not everyone who is infected by that awful meme ends up a murderer, but FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK CAN WE STOP SPREADING THAT MEME AROUND ALREADY? IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

And this.

I've been molested (two different unrelated adult men, at the ages of five and six) raped (age 15) raped again repeatedly in my early 20's by my first husband, sexually assaulted by a stranger within the last three years, and those are just the most egregious of my experiences; yes, every woman you know has been sexually harassed hundreds of times. When Twid was saying "now I know how women feel" because some guy asked him for a cock shot I restrained myself from LOLOLOLOL because I know that his level of affront was simply because it's so unusual for him to be asked such things, as opposed to being female and existing, which makes it a totally routine part of life to turn down people asking for inappropriate things.

I am also a fairly happy person who is mostly content with her lot in life, inconceivable as that may sound. Most of us are. The insanely pervasive sexism that permeates our lives and culture is bad and should stop, but you know, mostly things are OK.

Should I be sorry that telling men what real life is like for women makes some of them uncomfortable? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they should be uncomfortable, and instead of turning away from the thing that makes them uncomfortable, they should look at it a little harder.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 08:14:09 pm
Should I be sorry that telling men what real life is like for women makes some of them uncomfortable? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they should be uncomfortable, and instead of turning away from the thing that makes them uncomfortable, they should look at it a little harder.

:potd:
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 29, 2014, 08:15:34 pm
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

I read through that, and there were about two posts (by the same person) that I thought were bullshit.

Other than that, no, it wasn't tumblr.

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 08:22:10 pm
What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 08:22:36 pm
Hold on, let me just shrug into my rape-proof jacket.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 29, 2014, 08:24:41 pm
I'm just gonna say one more thing, then I'm heading for the bunker.

If you say you don't give a fuck about someone's opinion, or anyone's opinion, then don't get pissed off when your words bring any number of odious opinions concerning yourself, back in your direction.

Know what I mean?

Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 08:38:56 pm
What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.

I hesitate to comment somewhat, but I think Pent is making a point somewhere there, it's just being communicated badly.

E-prime what he said, and consider it in general good things/bad things terms, and I kind of get the mindset he's trying to portray. The right approach? I honestly don't know but focusing on how to fix things doesn't seem like the worst route to take? I'll shut up now and let him speak for himself because I've had various angles on this shit in my head all day and I'm probably working with some very bad ideas in places.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Pæs on May 29, 2014, 08:49:54 pm
The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I am actually curious how this intersects with your recent economics kick. Did I misinterpret trickle-up to require those with the majority of the wealth to aid in correcting a social power imbalance by surrendering some of their social power (cash to the poor in this case)?

What's different about your gender-related social power that makes this not your problem?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 08:51:00 pm
Quote
The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.

Defo! Thing that strikes me is this thread is about "PUAHate shooting incident" and I'm picturing this poor kid who aint a woman. So by definition he, what? Can't understand what it's like to be her, right? And he's ugly and fat and stupid and awkward, or he certainly feels that way. He's left out of the shit that normal people take for granted. I can see how this messes up his head. He feels marginalised. He's a young man. That feeling is just as likely to channel in the direction of anger. Of rage. Normal people do not do what this kid done. Takes a broken mind to do it. But it all started with a victim mentality. Stuck on the sidelines. Nobody knows what it's like to be poor little him.

Anyone who tries to help this kid, at the start, they could be saving two lives really, if you look at it that way, but he's a monster. He's a PUA scumbag. Doesn't deserve saved, does he? Deserves to be called "creepy rape guy" for his misguided, botched attempts to get his fair share of playtime  in the mating game that most "normal" people take for granted but his pain is nothing. It's invalid because nothing matches the level of suffering that group-b goes through. He needs to be shouted at and vilified and marginalised more, cos that's the solution, right? That totally helps the fuck out of everything?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 09:15:54 pm
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041


Yes, everything you have said there is true. It's researched backed up and shows exactly the percentage problem, maybe not even enough of it because of how much goes unreported.

It's very important, it's something everyone should know. But it's not what was said.

The example  was the men = shit

What you said in the quoted post makes me listen, what the latter does is make me stop listening.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 09:20:57 pm
So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 09:21:43 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

Agree 1000% with this.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 29, 2014, 09:23:50 pm
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041

Okay, it's hopeless.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 09:27:58 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 09:41:03 pm
So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiancée or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiancée and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 09:46:01 pm

I feel it important to note once again, communication and language used here really is half the fucking battle to my eyes.
Quote
The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 09:48:59 pm

The example  was the men = shit


I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 09:49:07 pm
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041

Okay, it's hopeless.

Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

We're socially conditioned (male and female) to look away, or to excuse bad behavior by people we know. I can think back at how many times I've been cornered by a handsy drunk at a party, but more uncomfortably I can think back to how many times I've seen someone cornered by a handsy drunk at a party and thought "she can handle it" or "I don't want to intrude, she might be into him", and refrained from interrupting. I have had my perspective changed by seeing things like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/education/edlife/stepping-up-to-stop-sexual-assault.html?_r=0 Now, if I see behavior that makes me wonder whether everything's OK, I intervene, in however small a way. If the chick is into the guy, she can recover from the interruption... and if she wants to get away, I provide her with a non-confrontational out.

Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 09:53:12 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.

And in our culture, we for some reason don't like looking at the roots of these problems, but instead seek to punish the results of them, to make an example of the ones who did what they were set up to do, to deter the others that are being set up to do the same thing. It's madness.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 09:54:57 pm

The example  was the men = shit


I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.

Yeah, and I am for messages that shock people into thinking about things differently, it can be a very effective tactic, this one I didn't get what you did, the knee jerk was that it was just bad signal and to ignore it.

Now that's my subjective experience of it. If it works and shocks even a small amount of people into thinking about the issue then good.

And I suppose it has also gotten me to engage here, if only to voice my disapproval of it, so it did start the communication going.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 09:58:13 pm
What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.

I hesitate to comment somewhat, but I think Pent is making a point somewhere there, it's just being communicated badly.

E-prime what he said, and consider it in general good things/bad things terms, and I kind of get the mindset he's trying to portray. The right approach? I honestly don't know but focusing on how to fix things doesn't seem like the worst route to take? I'll shut up now and let him speak for himself because I've had various angles on this shit in my head all day and I'm probably working with some very bad ideas in places.

It's REALLY, REALLY hard to get people to change their behavior if they won't recognize that there's a problem with it. In other words, if we focus on the solution, it will be meaningless unless the people with the power to stop the problem actually look at the problem. It's like women taking action to prevent rape; the only rape women can stop is the rape women commit.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 09:59:37 pm
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.

And in our culture, we for some reason don't like looking at the roots of these problems, but instead seek to punish the results of them, to make an example of the ones who did what they were set up to do, to deter the others that are being set up to do the same thing. It's madness.

There's no money to be made by solving the problem, it's easier to lock people into roles. The crime, the punishment, the getting away with it, the not getting away with it, all of it is just part of a pattern that MUST remain predictable, because changing it would be to invite the unexpected and that's SCARY.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 10:12:07 pm
When someone is complaining about the problem, and saying "I want people to LOOK AT THIS and recognize that there is a problem!" what is the impulse in people that causes them to respond with "You're focusing too much on the problem instead of solutions", instead of saying "I see you have a problem. What can I do to help?"

Usually, if someone is complaining, it's because they don't feel like they have much power beyond the ability to complain. I am going to be honest here; if women are complaining about being harassed or assaulted, it's because women feel powerless to stop it. The power we have, within the framework of the culture, is basically to say "HEY! HEY THIS AWFUL SHIT KEEPS HAPPENING!" I mean, we could arm ourselves en masse and go vigilante, but I'm talking about the real world here.

So let's make a metaphor. Say we're on the ground and you guys are in helicopters, and about 1 in 25 of you keeps dropping bombs on us. And the ones who drop bombs don't just do it once, they do it over and over again. So down on the ground, we're going "HEY! HEY, YOU'RE DROPPING BOMBS ON US! STOP!" and 10 out of 25 of  the people in helicopters go "What? I'm not the one dropping bombs, why are you running for cover every time I fly over?" and another 10 of the 25 go "Why don't you quit complaining and DO SOMETHING about the bombs?" and 3 of the 25 say "You deserve to have bombs dropped on you" and only 1 guy of the 25 says "Is there anything I can do to help?"

Shit starts to look pretty bleak. But if half of the guys in helicopters go "What assholes! I'm going to tell them it's not OK to drop bombs on you, and if I see anyone who looks like they might be heading over to drop bombs I'll fly interference so they don't have an easy time doing it", the people on the ground might be a whole lot safer.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 10:21:14 pm
What can I do to help?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2014, 10:22:50 pm
What can I do to help?

That.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 29, 2014, 10:27:00 pm
I would like to throw out a phrase here to describe the problem with this shooter: Terminal Case of Privilege.

He has been told all his life that by virtue of his birth, he is not required to empathize with others, that he is not required to have any kind of special talent or skills to succeed, that he is entitled to female attention, and he is the Main Character of all stories. When any little piece of this is not delivered on (because even though he does have it easier than other people, that's no guarantee of success), he goes crazy-go-nuts and lashes out indiscriminately at others, trying to find an appropriate target for his bad feels because bad feels must be someone's fault. Because feeling bad isn't part of the protagonist's story, so something must have fucked up. These shooters are all too young and self-absorbed to recognize that the thing ruining their lives is the poisonous story of the Main Character, and so they latch onto something else as The Problem and yell about it. And everyone finally has to pay attention to them and they win.

This guy is offering us a very important opportunity to discuss that poisonous narrative, and how it contributes to (I believe) all random mass shootings. Talking about the specific aspect of that narrative that affects the relationships between men and women is vital, because he's one of the first people to even somewhat coherently yell about something close to the real problem, even though he blames the victims of the narrative instead of the narrative itself.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 10:30:09 pm
Back to the shooter; that guy had all kinds of things going wrong with him, and there were probably a lot of stages where intervention could potentially have helped. He wasn't a monster, but he did something monstrous. His parents were trying to get help for him, and it didn't work. Was it rape culture that was a root cause? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably not. I don't think it was the dehumanizing of women, per se, that led him to go on a shooting spree. I don't think, from what I've read, that he had a lot of empathy or ability to connect with any humans, male or female. I think that there was probably a neurobiological basis for his weirdness, and that the weirdness combined with inability to connect with or empathize with other people led to him being deprived of social validation. I think that based on what little I know that it's likely that a combination of loneliness and entitlement led to his rage and violence, and that he would have expressed that rage and violence even had the objects of his sexual desire had been hot, popular young blond men instead of hot, popular young blond women.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 10:36:53 pm
What can I do to help?

That.

I think the most instrumental things you can do are to intervene when you see something that makes you wonder if everything's OK. Not aggressively; you can swoop in and say to the girl "hey I wanted to talk to you about something", or be the guy who interrupts when you see a guy has a drunk girl cornered in the kitchen, or be the guy who says "Hey dude, leave her alone, that's not OK" when you see the all-too-common scenario where a woman repeatedly tells a guy to stop touching her/pushes his hand away. You can be the guy who intervenes when a guy she just met offers your drunk friend a ride home, or when you see a guy follow a girl out of the bar. I think we're all afraid of looking like an asshole or interrupting where we're not wanted, but so much of the time, that's all it takes to prevent an assault. And the real magic is, if you do it, other guys will feel like it's OK for them to do it too.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 10:38:41 pm
Although they're designed for college aged men, I think the suggestions on these posters are pretty good: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/Strength-Media-Portfolio/preview-of-new-bystander-intervention-campaign.html
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 10:44:06 pm
Shit starts to look pretty bleak. But if half of the guys in helicopters go "What assholes! I'm going to tell them it's not OK to drop bombs on you, and if I see anyone who looks like they might be heading over to drop bombs I'll fly interference so they don't have an easy time doing it", the people on the ground might be a whole lot safer.

Some guys do, do that. Some of them are guy-guys who are respected by their peers. Some of them will rip the piss out of PUA/Mysogenistic assholes, others will step in with violence, where necessary, to stop some asshole hurting someone else (male or female) whether it's a beating or a raping or whatever and some guys cover all the other points in between. If I was an optimist, I'd say some of that attitude might rub off. That's all I got, I'm afraid. Fuck if I know how we make it half.

So yeah, what do you think I can do to help? For the record, looking at this shit doesn't make me uncomfortable. It makes me frustrated. And, often, it feels divisive, which frustrates me even more.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 10:44:16 pm
Back to the shooter; that guy had all kinds of things going wrong with him, and there were probably a lot of stages where intervention could potentially have helped. He wasn't a monster, but he did something monstrous. His parents were trying to get help for him, and it didn't work. Was it rape culture that was a root cause? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably not. I don't think it was the dehumanizing of women, per se, that led him to go on a shooting spree. I don't think, from what I've read, that he had a lot of empathy or ability to connect with any humans, male or female. I think that there was probably a neurobiological basis for his weirdness, and that the weirdness combined with inability to connect with or empathize with other people led to him being deprived of social validation. I think that based on what little I know that it's likely that a combination of loneliness and entitlement led to his rage and violence, and that he would have expressed that rage and violence even had the objects of his sexual desire had been hot, popular young blond men instead of hot, popular young blond women.

That's the impression I gathered as well from his videos, he utterly despised both the male and female gender roles of society, and comes across as both self hating with feelings of inadequacy and resentment of what he perceived of people having.

It's doubtful that that the sum total of why he went on the shooting spree and as you said I'd say given the opportunity he would have killed both the boy and girl in the couple he was watching.

In Ireland these feelings manifest as suicidal instead of explosive (were the highest suicide rate for men between 16 and 28 in the world as far as I know) but the feelings seem to stem from the same place and it seems to be resentment or hopelessness at the role that society has chosen for them.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2014, 10:52:19 pm
And for the record, if you don't step up to a guy who's harassing a woman because you're afraid he might turn on you and punch you, then how do you think she's feeling?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 10:55:06 pm
What can I do to help?

That.

I think the most instrumental things you can do are to intervene when you see something that makes you wonder if everything's OK. Not aggressively; you can swoop in and say to the girl "hey I wanted to talk to you about something", or be the guy who interrupts when you see a guy has a drunk girl cornered in the kitchen, or be the guy who says "Hey dude, leave her alone, that's not OK" when you see the all-too-common scenario where a woman repeatedly tells a guy to stop touching her/pushes his hand away. You can be the guy who intervenes when a guy she just met offers your drunk friend a ride home, or when you see a guy follow a girl out of the bar. I think we're all afraid of looking like an asshole or interrupting where we're not wanted, but so much of the time, that's all it takes to prevent an assault. And the real magic is, if you do it, other guys will feel like it's OK for them to do it too.

One or two of those I've had to do when I was in college, especially in a couple of house parties. As I get older I'm not in the social situations where that occurs as much.

To be honest the majority of what I can do is probably just support my fiancée when she encounters situations where she is treated differently for being a woman, and she is tougher than me so she's pretty good at taking care of herself.

Professionally I always make sure to speak up for women at work when the common perception in engineering is they are hard to work with or not as good.

I suppose I could make more a difference if I was involved more in the community, but girls being harassed is something I can watch out for in public at least.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 10:59:12 pm
"What can I do to help?" is a strong message. It's one men can embrace without, it appeals to self worth as opposed to triggering a defensive mechanism.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:01:46 pm
One thing people get weirdly hung up on with a lot of these misogynistic PUA people is the idea that being fat or ugly or skinny or having bad skin or being nerdy are somehow this big obstacle to love, sex, and companionship. They're not. They may be obstacles to hooking up with someone who is much more attractive or athletic or in a very different social circle, but even that isn't always true. The main obstacle to sex, love, and companionship is almost invariably poor social skills and low empathy. The inability to really connect with other people or to view others as multidimensional entities with complex emotional landscapes is even more of a dealbreaker than garden-variety shyness, which can also be an obstacle (and is often on a spectrum that shares space with lack of empathy).

I'm going to say something that could easily be taken the wrong way. I want to clarify in advance that I am not justifying bullying. However, sometimes I think that some behaviors that get labeled as bullying occur as a response to something being amiss with the victim; he may be ostracized because he's unable to connect with people normally, for example, or girls may reject him because he approaches them in ways that can reasonably be interpreted as creepy. A stunningly high proportion of psychopaths were bullied in school, after their conduct disordered tendencies were already well-established. We tend to view bullying as a cause of antisocial behavior, but I suspect that in many cases it's actually a co-product, and one that exacerbates the underlying cause.

Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Sita on May 29, 2014, 11:06:00 pm
Sorry but I really have no perspective to offer on this. Aside from an incident or two in high school I've not run into anything like what Nigel or QG have talked about.
This is probably in most part because I do not go out and socialize. And any time that I am out I'm usually with my husband.
If anyone does notice me in such a way it's never been brought to my attention.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:07:17 pm
Back to the shooter; that guy had all kinds of things going wrong with him, and there were probably a lot of stages where intervention could potentially have helped. He wasn't a monster, but he did something monstrous. His parents were trying to get help for him, and it didn't work. Was it rape culture that was a root cause? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably not. I don't think it was the dehumanizing of women, per se, that led him to go on a shooting spree. I don't think, from what I've read, that he had a lot of empathy or ability to connect with any humans, male or female. I think that there was probably a neurobiological basis for his weirdness, and that the weirdness combined with inability to connect with or empathize with other people led to him being deprived of social validation. I think that based on what little I know that it's likely that a combination of loneliness and entitlement led to his rage and violence, and that he would have expressed that rage and violence even had the objects of his sexual desire had been hot, popular young blond men instead of hot, popular young blond women.

That's the impression I gathered as well from his videos, he utterly despised both the male and female gender roles of society, and comes across as both self hating with feelings of inadequacy and resentment of what he perceived of people having.

It's doubtful that that the sum total of why he went on the shooting spree and as you said I'd say given the opportunity he would have killed both the boy and girl in the couple he was watching.

In Ireland these feelings manifest as suicidal instead of explosive (were the highest suicide rate for men between 16 and 28 in the world as far as I know) but the feelings seem to stem from the same place and it seems to be resentment or hopelessness at the role that society has chosen for them.

I would hazard a guess that the reason that hopelessness and resentment is more likely to turn inward there is that Ireland is not exactly a place that is flush with entitlement.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 11:10:25 pm
That wouldn't surprise me, children especially follow the tribal social structure and anything weird or out of place is deemed an acceptable target, not exclusively out of a place of cruelty but because confrontation with someone who cannot create that social overlap or follow social dynamics makes them uncomfortable and insecure.

Then you get the really horrible part, the banding together of the vaguely socially awkward, who form their own little hierarchy of geeks, after them all that remains if you are really unable to connect is isolation, while they might not be bullied MORE than the geeks, for the isolated I would imagine its a far harder burden to cope with.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:13:39 pm
And for the record, if you don't step up to a guy who's harassing a woman because you're afraid he might turn on you and punch you, then how do you think she's feeling?

This is a very good point, and is, along with fear of breaking the social code, one of the reasons women will often be FAR more polite than the situation warrants when cornered by a guy. One friend of mine described being raped by saying "It was less risky to just let him do it; I was afraid that if I kept saying no, he'd have a tantrum".

This is a totally viable strategy. The risk of getting a disease is there, yes, but between rape and recovering from a broken jaw, a lot of women will choose the rape, especially if they have a family to take care of. I certainly would.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2014, 11:16:22 pm
One thing people get weirdly hung up on with a lot of these misogynistic PUA people is the idea that being fat or ugly or skinny or having bad skin or being nerdy are somehow this big obstacle to love, sex, and companionship. They're not. They may be obstacles to hooking up with someone who is much more attractive or athletic or in a very different social circle, but even that isn't always true. The main obstacle to sex, love, and companionship is almost invariably poor social skills and low empathy. The inability to really connect with other people or to view others as multidimensional entities with complex emotional landscapes is even more of a dealbreaker than garden-variety shyness, which can also be an obstacle (and is often on a spectrum that shares space with lack of empathy).

Speaking as someone who used to be a neurotic little fuck with the self esteem of a mollusc, I'd say you were bang on the money. I'm thinking we need a "PUA" alternative. Maybe the "score with chicks" thing is a hook, maybe not but the course is building healthy self esteem and diffusing some of those potential powderkeg emotional/psychological quagmires? Once again we come back to education.

I'm going to say something that could easily be taken the wrong way. I want to clarify in advance that I am not justifying bullying. However, sometimes I think that some behaviors that get labeled as bullying occur as a response to something being amiss with the victim; he may be ostracized because he's unable to connect with people normally, for example, or girls may reject him because he approaches them in ways that can reasonably be interpreted as creepy. A stunningly high proportion of psychopaths were bullied in school, after their conduct disordered tendencies were already well-established. We tend to view bullying as a cause of antisocial behavior, but I suspect that in many cases it's actually a co-product, and one that exacerbates the underlying cause.

Kids can be cruel. Half formed personalities, sometimes working like pack animals, attacking the perceived weak links. Maybe this kind of bullying is a trigger or at least a contributing factor for psychopathology? A push over the edge kind of thing. It's not an area I know much about, to be honest, so maybe I'm way off base.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 29, 2014, 11:17:36 pm
Back to the shooter; that guy had all kinds of things going wrong with him, and there were probably a lot of stages where intervention could potentially have helped. He wasn't a monster, but he did something monstrous. His parents were trying to get help for him, and it didn't work. Was it rape culture that was a root cause? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably not. I don't think it was the dehumanizing of women, per se, that led him to go on a shooting spree. I don't think, from what I've read, that he had a lot of empathy or ability to connect with any humans, male or female. I think that there was probably a neurobiological basis for his weirdness, and that the weirdness combined with inability to connect with or empathize with other people led to him being deprived of social validation. I think that based on what little I know that it's likely that a combination of loneliness and entitlement led to his rage and violence, and that he would have expressed that rage and violence even had the objects of his sexual desire had been hot, popular young blond men instead of hot, popular young blond women.

That's the impression I gathered as well from his videos, he utterly despised both the male and female gender roles of society, and comes across as both self hating with feelings of inadequacy and resentment of what he perceived of people having.

It's doubtful that that the sum total of why he went on the shooting spree and as you said I'd say given the opportunity he would have killed both the boy and girl in the couple he was watching.

In Ireland these feelings manifest as suicidal instead of explosive (were the highest suicide rate for men between 16 and 28 in the world as far as I know) but the feelings seem to stem from the same place and it seems to be resentment or hopelessness at the role that society has chosen for them.

I would hazard a guess that the reason that hopelessness and resentment is more likely to turn inward there is that Ireland is not exactly a place that is flush with entitlement.

Not flush with entitlement but not as bad as other countries certainly, a history of staunch catholic self loathing and begrudgery are a huge part of Irish culture so people don't FEEL entitled, people can be successful but they are not respected for it and it isn't celebrated.

It's probably why so many celebrities have holiday homes here, people make a point of not looking at them in public or otherwise treating them as if they were different. It's a not a positive thing, unless you are a celebrity I guess.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Pergamos on May 29, 2014, 11:19:56 pm
Quote
The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.

Defo! Thing that strikes me is this thread is about "PUAHate shooting incident" and I'm picturing this poor kid who aint a woman. So by definition he, what? Can't understand what it's like to be her, right? And he's ugly and fat and stupid and awkward, or he certainly feels that way. He's left out of the shit that normal people take for granted. I can see how this messes up his head. He feels marginalised. He's a young man. That feeling is just as likely to channel in the direction of anger. Of rage. Normal people do not do what this kid done. Takes a broken mind to do it. But it all started with a victim mentality. Stuck on the sidelines. Nobody knows what it's like to be poor little him.

Anyone who tries to help this kid, at the start, they could be saving two lives really, if you look at it that way, but he's a monster. He's a PUA scumbag. Doesn't deserve saved, does he? Deserves to be called "creepy rape guy" for his misguided, botched attempts to get his fair share of playtime  in the mating game that most "normal" people take for granted but his pain is nothing. It's invalid because nothing matches the level of suffering that group-b goes through. He needs to be shouted at and vilified and marginalised more, cos that's the solution, right? That totally helps the fuck out of everything?

He wasn't ugly or fat, you look at the pictures of him and he was quite an attractive young man.  Awkward he my have been but I pretty strongly suspect the reason no women wanted to sleep with him was because his hatred of women was clear enough to drive any and all away.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:20:49 pm
That wouldn't surprise me, children especially follow the tribal social structure and anything weird or out of place is deemed an acceptable target, not exclusively out of a place of cruelty but because confrontation with someone who cannot create that social overlap or follow social dynamics makes them uncomfortable and insecure.

Then you get the really horrible part, the banding together of the vaguely socially awkward, who form their own little hierarchy of geeks, after them all that remains if you are really unable to connect is isolation, while they might not be bullied MORE than the geeks, for the isolated I would imagine its a far harder burden to cope with.

I dunno, I was a geek, and we banded together not because we were socially awkward leftovers, but because as few as there were of us, we were fluent in each other's social language. And there WAS a guy who wanted to belong because he thought we were a hodgepodge of outcasts, and his community of last resort... THAT guy was a scary, scary motherfucker. Goemagog. It still creeps me out to think of him.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 29, 2014, 11:21:53 pm
Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Quote
Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Pergamos on May 29, 2014, 11:23:52 pm
So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiancée or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiancée and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.

Men who do this tend not to do it when other men are around.  It makes those of us who don't do it that much more blind to it because not only do we not do it, and it doesn't happen to us, we don't see it either.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:24:18 pm
Quote
The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.

Defo! Thing that strikes me is this thread is about "PUAHate shooting incident" and I'm picturing this poor kid who aint a woman. So by definition he, what? Can't understand what it's like to be her, right? And he's ugly and fat and stupid and awkward, or he certainly feels that way. He's left out of the shit that normal people take for granted. I can see how this messes up his head. He feels marginalised. He's a young man. That feeling is just as likely to channel in the direction of anger. Of rage. Normal people do not do what this kid done. Takes a broken mind to do it. But it all started with a victim mentality. Stuck on the sidelines. Nobody knows what it's like to be poor little him.

Anyone who tries to help this kid, at the start, they could be saving two lives really, if you look at it that way, but he's a monster. He's a PUA scumbag. Doesn't deserve saved, does he? Deserves to be called "creepy rape guy" for his misguided, botched attempts to get his fair share of playtime  in the mating game that most "normal" people take for granted but his pain is nothing. It's invalid because nothing matches the level of suffering that group-b goes through. He needs to be shouted at and vilified and marginalised more, cos that's the solution, right? That totally helps the fuck out of everything?

He wasn't ugly or fat, you look at the pictures of him and he was quite an attractive young man.  Awkward he my have been but I pretty strongly suspect the reason no women wanted to sleep with him was because his hatred of women was clear enough to drive any and all away.

Yeah, he was a good-looking kid. I suspect that his hatred of women came later, and that his inability to connect with people came first. I hope to someday have a chance to stick people like him in an fMRI to try to see what I can find out about their amygdala function.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:27:13 pm
So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiancée or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiancée and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.

Men who do this tend not to do it when other men are around.  It makes those of us who don't do it that much more blind to it because not only do we not do it, and it doesn't happen to us, we don't see it either.

Um, I've had guys do stuff like this to me in front of a ton of people, and still had people either not notice, or brush it off as "harmless". I had a guy grabbing my ass while I was right next to my boyfriend, and not only didn't stop when I pushed his hand away, but my boyfriend thought it was funny when I told him. I have had to literally get up and move to another seat to get away from guys who were groping me in public, because nobody would say a damn thing.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:28:46 pm
"What can I do to help?" is a strong message. It's one men can embrace without, it appeals to self worth as opposed to triggering a defensive mechanism.

I think it might be the single most effective thing people can say to counteract the effects of privilege. Any type of privilege.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:42:58 pm
One thing people get weirdly hung up on with a lot of these misogynistic PUA people is the idea that being fat or ugly or skinny or having bad skin or being nerdy are somehow this big obstacle to love, sex, and companionship. They're not. They may be obstacles to hooking up with someone who is much more attractive or athletic or in a very different social circle, but even that isn't always true. The main obstacle to sex, love, and companionship is almost invariably poor social skills and low empathy. The inability to really connect with other people or to view others as multidimensional entities with complex emotional landscapes is even more of a dealbreaker than garden-variety shyness, which can also be an obstacle (and is often on a spectrum that shares space with lack of empathy).

Speaking as someone who used to be a neurotic little fuck with the self esteem of a mollusc, I'd say you were bang on the money. I'm thinking we need a "PUA" alternative. Maybe the "score with chicks" thing is a hook, maybe not but the course is building healthy self esteem and diffusing some of those potential powderkeg emotional/psychological quagmires? Once again we come back to education.

I'm going to say something that could easily be taken the wrong way. I want to clarify in advance that I am not justifying bullying. However, sometimes I think that some behaviors that get labeled as bullying occur as a response to something being amiss with the victim; he may be ostracized because he's unable to connect with people normally, for example, or girls may reject him because he approaches them in ways that can reasonably be interpreted as creepy. A stunningly high proportion of psychopaths were bullied in school, after their conduct disordered tendencies were already well-established. We tend to view bullying as a cause of antisocial behavior, but I suspect that in many cases it's actually a co-product, and one that exacerbates the underlying cause.

Kids can be cruel. Half formed personalities, sometimes working like pack animals, attacking the perceived weak links. Maybe this kind of bullying is a trigger or at least a contributing factor for psychopathology? A push over the edge kind of thing. It's not an area I know much about, to be honest, so maybe I'm way off base.

Abuse and rejection are definitely linked to psychopathy, and I would have to speculate that bullying in school could increase the likelihood of expressing frustration via violence... but one thing that's important to know is that most psychopaths are already exhibiting conduct disorder by the time they start school ("Conduct Disorder" being the term they give to kids who exhibit psychopathic behaviors such as hurting animals or people, along with "Oppositional Defiant Disorder", because they don't want to label them with psychopathy). Another thing that's good to know is that not only do psychopaths lie with great fluency, they also refuse to take responsibility for their actions, blaming everything that happens on someone else's actions. This could mean that many of the reports of bullying are, in the case of psychopaths, re-engineered accounts of fights they themselves instigated, much like Elliot Rodger's account of being bullied by the guys at the frat party where he broke his ankle.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 29, 2014, 11:48:07 pm
Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Quote
Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Pergamos on May 29, 2014, 11:50:02 pm
The existence of the black panthers and the Nation of Islam allowed MLK and his followers to be viewed s  reasonable alternative, which made their demands more palateable to white society.  Without the more extreme movements I do not think chances of success would have been as good.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 29, 2014, 11:50:06 pm

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.
BRB to discuss, little crisis here
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Raz Tech on May 29, 2014, 11:52:35 pm
Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Quote
Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

It's put quite a few things in a different perspective for me, so thanks to all for that.  I think the issue would still be easier to handle if the tumblr-esque feminazis would knock things off though.

Some excellent points have been brought up here though
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 12:09:11 am

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.
BRB to discuss, little crisis here

Uh-oh, hope everything isn't on fire TOO badly.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Scott The Cuck on May 30, 2014, 02:51:52 am
I've made a rant on FB (copy/pasta) about how I feel about this (social standard). I'll make a thread about it for anyone who is in the same boat about info, but is afraid to post because of derailment (dumbass).
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 30, 2014, 04:23:05 am
I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 30, 2014, 06:48:13 am

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.
BRB to discuss, little crisis here

Uh-oh, hope everything isn't on fire TOO badly.

The vendor wanted to review negotiations.  I'm back from the pub, I think he's passed out in the dumpster.

I must now stay awake all night, because if I go to sleep now, there's no way I'll wake up in time for my flight.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 07:20:46 am
I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

I am so sorry that all that shit was done to you and your siblings, and even more sorry that so many people who are SUPPOSED to be mandatory reporters, and are SUPPOSED to stand up for you, didn't.

I do think things can get better, and I also think that there are a lot of signs that things will get better and are getting better. I know we both know a lot of men who are doing their damndest to make things better. That gives me hope for my own daughters.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 30, 2014, 07:33:00 am
I am so sorry that all that shit was done to you and your siblings, and even more sorry that so many people who are SUPPOSED to be mandatory reporters, and are SUPPOSED to stand up for you, didn't.

I do think things can get better, and I also think that there are a lot of signs that things will get better and are getting better. I know we both know a lot of men who are doing their damndest to make things better. That gives me hope for my own daughters.

Yup. There are a lot of good people out there, a lot of good men. And I hope we can keep working on making things better despite and because of events like this shooter and more persistent issues like the whole PUA line of thinking.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 30, 2014, 07:44:04 am
I have little to add that hasn't already been said.
I will try to keep the 'how can i help?'  attitude in mind.
I like the culture here at PD that allows so many open-hearted stories about this delicate subject.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 07:45:22 am
Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Quote
Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

It's put quite a few things in a different perspective for me, so thanks to all for that.  I think the issue would still be easier to handle if the tumblr-esque feminazis would knock things off though.

Some excellent points have been brought up here though

The loudest voice in a lot of causes is that of the asshole contingent. They tend to screech the loudest and drown the signal in noise. Something I've only really noticed recently. Ties in with "Moral Majority" bullshit. If you only go with what you hear, then logic dictates that feminazi's are feminism. That's not the case, tho. Tumblr-tards are the exception, masquerading as the rule.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Junkenstein on May 30, 2014, 08:10:48 am
Sorry but I really have no perspective to offer on this. Aside from an incident or two in high school I've not run into anything like what Nigel or QG have talked about.
This is probably in most part because I do not go out and socialize. And any time that I am out I'm usually with my husband.
If anyone does notice me in such a way it's never been brought to my attention.

There's something about this that troubles me and I can't quite place it. That said, your reaction to various ideas and suggestions is probably quite helpful as it's coming from a relatively neutral place.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on May 30, 2014, 11:14:52 am
Both my close female friends have been raped. And it has happened to several more who I know and look up to. What was perhaps most shocking to learn about were the reactions they got from their surroundings. For example: Friends who just continued their friendship with the rapist as if nothing had happened even after being told about it, and having promised to confront him.

It makes me angry. It makes me sad. It makes me feel guilty about how I thought about this a couple of years ago.

But also, the fact that they trust me enough to tell me about it makes me reconsider my value as a social being. Makes me think the neurotic, self-loathing part of me is wrong about most things. And that I'm worth more out there among people than inside my own head.

Anyway. The key is to make men listen.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 02:35:13 pm
Both my close female friends have been raped. And it has happened to several more who I know and look up to. What was perhaps most shocking to learn about were the reactions they got from their surroundings. For example: Friends who just continued their friendship with the rapist as if nothing had happened even after being told about it, and having promised to confront him.

It makes me angry. It makes me sad. It makes me feel guilty about how I thought about this a couple of years ago.

But also, the fact that they trust me enough to tell me about it makes me reconsider my value as a social being. Makes me think the neurotic, self-loathing part of me is wrong about most things. And that I'm worth more out there among people than inside my own head.

Anyway. The key is to make men listen.

Fact is, men like you have the most power to make other men listen, so yeah, kick the self-loathing part to the curb. You are being a good friend.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 30, 2014, 05:07:48 pm
CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 30, 2014, 05:20:18 pm
CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

Seconded. Not that less awful shit should be happening to anyone but, if we had the opportunity to prioritize, laying shit like that on little kids is as a good a place to start.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:49:21 pm
CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.

It's interesting how many abusive people function on denial, isn't it? They respond to being called on their abuse with "that never happened". It's amazing.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: N E T on May 31, 2014, 01:50:37 am
I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I don't find your post to be rambling or a downer—in fact, it's well written (as usual) and rationally optimistic.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 31, 2014, 03:25:55 am
CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.

It's interesting how many abusive people function on denial, isn't it? They respond to being called on their abuse with "that never happened". It's amazing.

It astounds me. Absolutely astounds me.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 31, 2014, 03:58:10 am
Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 31, 2014, 04:29:08 am
I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I don't find your post to be rambling or a downer—in fact, it's well written (as usual) and rationally optimistic.

Thankee, sir.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Faust on May 31, 2014, 07:53:39 am
Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 31, 2014, 01:54:53 pm
Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.

And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 31, 2014, 03:25:15 pm
Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.

And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.

Do you have a link? I haven't heard anything about this, nor can I find it on the news.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 31, 2014, 03:36:15 pm
Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.

And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.

Do you have a link? I haven't heard anything about this, nor can I find it on the news.

To The Onion article? Because my little blurb there was just me taking the piss.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cain on May 31, 2014, 04:26:00 pm
I cant find the news about 7 people being killed either.  I hit up Google news and got 3 in South Carolina...where did this shooting happen?
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 31, 2014, 05:41:05 pm
Okay, sorry, I was being unclear.

This:


And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.

I was riffing on the progression of mass shooting becoming so common that they're incidental. Neither of those things I mentioned happened.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cain on May 31, 2014, 05:41:59 pm
Ah, gotcha.

In my defense, I did work an overnight shift, and only woke up 2 hours ago. 
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: LMNO on May 31, 2014, 07:18:40 pm
CPD, I offer a non-threatening platonic hug of comfort and gratitude. You've gone through a bunch of shit that would break most people, and have turned out to be an above-average human.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 31, 2014, 09:35:10 pm
Okay, sorry, I was being unclear.

This:


And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.

I was riffing on the progression of mass shooting becoming so common that they're incidental. Neither of those things I mentioned happened.


Oh, gotcha... in that context, it's pretty funny.  :lol: And it's kind of sad that my assumption was that you were talking about actual news.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 31, 2014, 09:36:49 pm
CPD, I offer a non-threatening platonic hug of comfort and gratitude. You've gone through a bunch of shit that would break most people, and have turned out to be an above-average human.

I'm so fascinated by that particular phenomenon; some people go through a lot of bullshit and turn out a little worn around the edges but fundamentally decent solid people, and others can go through a similar experience and turn out abusive assholes who perpetuate the bullshit.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 01, 2014, 02:27:02 am
CPD, I offer a non-threatening platonic hug of comfort and gratitude. You've gone through a bunch of shit that would break most people, and have turned out to be an above-average human.

I appreciate that, LMNO. Thank you.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 01, 2014, 02:32:03 am
CPD, I offer a non-threatening platonic hug of comfort and gratitude. You've gone through a bunch of shit that would break most people, and have turned out to be an above-average human.

I'm so fascinated by that particular phenomenon; some people go through a lot of bullshit and turn out a little worn around the edges but fundamentally decent solid people, and others can go through a similar experience and turn out abusive assholes who perpetuate the bullshit.

Yeah. My three brothers are alcoholics and very abusive. To the point of beating up my mom on occasion. I think they're better than my parents were, for a given value of 'better', but they still live at home off and on so I don't know how that's working out. I cut off all contact except for three or four texts a year, about 12 years ago. Which none of them can understand.

The line that makes or breaks the average person seems like such an ephemeral filament when I try to pin it down.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 01, 2014, 03:33:45 am
CPD, I offer a non-threatening platonic hug of comfort and gratitude. You've gone through a bunch of shit that would break most people, and have turned out to be an above-average human.

I'm so fascinated by that particular phenomenon; some people go through a lot of bullshit and turn out a little worn around the edges but fundamentally decent solid people, and others can go through a similar experience and turn out abusive assholes who perpetuate the bullshit.

Yeah. My three brothers are alcoholics and very abusive. To the point of beating up my mom on occasion. I think they're better than my parents were, for a given value of 'better', but they still live at home off and on so I don't know how that's working out. I cut off all contact except for three or four texts a year, about 12 years ago. Which none of them can understand.

The line that makes or breaks the average person seems like such an ephemeral filament when I try to pin it down.

Yeah, I have a couple of pretty fucked-up family members too, and neither of them can understand why people just sort of back away after a while. Both very intelligent and charismatic, as well as very self-centered and drama-making. And everything is ALWAYS someone else's fault.
Title: Re: PUAHate shooting incident
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 01, 2014, 07:12:08 am
I think it's something that's probably not a conscious decision for most. Everyone responds to any negative stimulus by engaging coping mechanisms. While we can argue til he cows come home about good and bad strategies, the brain generally doesn't, it just grabs the nearest and, if it helps alleviate the effects of the stimulus, it gets the gig.

The sad fact of the matter is that both avenues (becoming a better person and becoming a dick) can lead to a perceived alleviation. It's a crapshoot. Good support would make all the difference but, in the absence of good support, luck, intelligence and a strong sense of self awareness are probably the main deciders.