Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Vanadium Gryllz on February 23, 2016, 02:54:34 pm

Title: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on February 23, 2016, 02:54:34 pm
So the date for the EU referendum has been announced. Whereupon the decision as to whether Britain will stay a part of the EU or leave to chart its own course will be decided by the masses.

I really have no idea as to what the pros and cons are for each choice. I am leaning towards 'in' right now - I think that the federalisation (is that the right word?) of Europe is probably a good thing.

Then again, I wonder how the Germans feel about that.
Also Cameron wants us to stay in and being in agreement with the Cambot makes me nervous.

I also get the sense that we're fucked either way.


What do you guys think?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 03:04:50 pm
All leaving the EU accomplishes is meaning we have no say in how it is run while still having to abide by the vast majority of its rules.  Unless we want massive tariffs on all our trade in Europe.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 23, 2016, 03:44:52 pm
Doesn't it also put the UK on the Euro?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 04:22:29 pm
Doesn't it also put the UK on the Euro?

Nope, we have an opt-out clause for that.

Ultimately we will have to join the Euro or leave the EU at some point....but probably not for another 20+ years, at this rate.  We're still fuming about being signed up to the ECHR (despite it mostly being written by British solicitors, and being about the weakest bill of rights since the Soviet Union came into being), so that should give you an idea how we'd feel about giving up currency control and central banking privileges.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 05:06:36 pm
There's also the Scottish question...since Scotland are keen to stay in the EU, if we do leave (the polls suggest we wont...but Cameron is bollocksing up the campaign), Scotland may claim that the UK has no right to unilaterlly withdraw Scotland from an organization their population wants to be a part of.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on February 24, 2016, 01:01:35 am
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

Quote
Mr Bremmer argued that:

Brexit would bring the “further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence”
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit “very dramatically” by Brexit
given the uncertainty about the EU’s future, now is a “very bad time for a referendum”
for that reason, and given the way the state is changing, it cannot be assumed that the referendum will settle the European question
another referendum in the medium term is a possibility
in a “world with more currencies” it is entirely possible for Britain to thrive in the EU without adopting the Euro
Britain should be doing “so much more” and “everything possible” to improve its relationship with India rather than obsessing about China, for which Germany will always be the best European partner
the notion of an “incredibly overbearing” EU getting in Britain’s way does not match the weak reality: “I really would not be very worried that the EU is stopping Britain from accomplishing so much”
Japan, not Britain, is best placed to sell services to the Chinese
by backing out of Europe and thus making itself a “second tier power”, Britain is undermining its own attempts to attract Chinese attention and investment
it is dangerously short-termist for Brits to put “all of your eggs in the China basket”
London’s concentration on winning small concessions from Brussels illustrates its lack of ambition on the world stage: “The very debate that is being had over this referendum proves my point that Britain is not as relevant as it used to be”
Britain should be looking to set Europe’s course: “if you vote to stay in the EU the Brits can and should embrace a leadership role in what is a weaker Europe that needs Britain"
Brexit could put off Eurosceptics in other EU countries, because they will see how “painful” and “technically difficult to engineer” leaving the union is
Brexit would contribute to a much broader trend: the hollowing out of the transatlantic relationship and America’s associated turn towards the Pacific
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on February 24, 2016, 10:47:10 am

I think this is quite an interesting [and mercifully short and simple] Irish overview of so-called Brexit.

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/brexit-is-more-complicated-than-you-think-23024/?gclid=Cj0KEQiAuqC2BRDVxMSnpa-mhZoBEiQAFta8wS2smesoStqp4MTvkU97a851igrOLQVMahszM-3M3gMaAk6_8P8HAQ
Quote
What would happen if the UK left the European Union?
Former Irish Prime Minister John Bruton explains the different options.


In June, the people of the United Kingdom may vote to leave the European Union (EU). At the moment, a narrow majority favors remaining in the EU, but a large group is undecided. That group could swing toward a “leave” position for a variety of reasons, including what might be temporary EU problems with refugees. However temporary the reasons might be, a decision to leave would be politically irreversible.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 24, 2016, 11:11:18 am
All leaving the EU accomplishes is meaning we have no say in how it is run while still having to abide by the vast majority of its rules.  Unless we want massive tariffs on all our trade in Europe.

Pretty much that.

I'd say there's also further knock on fuck-ups to come such as when there's any negotiations with serious world powers. The rugged individualist bullshit is also kicking around with many trying to convince others (and likely themselves) that we would be back to the glory days of the empire in a few years. I'd suspect the reality is that the EU and others would do their best to gut London while the other superpowers fight over the carcass. China and Russia have a serious influence now in many UK sectors (Metals, manufacturing, Energy and more) and with the subsequently weaker position will take it as a good opportunity to increase that.

I would imagine that security in general would take a hit due to the general restructuring and communication fuckups.

On a personal level, I've taken on work in a few EU countries over the past couple of years and I doubt that will get easier to do on an exit. The tax calcs as it stands are a fucking headache.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on February 24, 2016, 11:28:54 am
ALSO "Brexit"?  BREXIT???
That is as grotesquely ridiculous as calling the Second World War Gerspansion!

ALSO I think it is significant that so many Europhobes are calling for us to return to our traditional trading relations, going back to our natural partners our Imperial colonies oops, the Commonwealth. My reading -  the movers and shakers who are the political force behind this shortsighted  strategy are interested in realigning thgeir business interests with developing nations where there is a quick buck to be made and the foot soldiers ie the millions of terrified punter who will go vote us out of Europe  are scared of being swamped by foreigners. Eorope, by definition, is full of foreigners. I would not be at all surprised to see a return of signs on rental accomodation like we used to have "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish".

ALSO I'm not hearing anyone on either side of the debate making a big deal out of the point that I see as being one of the most important issues. Quoting John Bruton again because I believe it bears repeating
Quote
In June, the people of the United Kingdom may vote to leave the European Union (EU). At the moment, a narrow majority favors remaining in the EU, but a large group is undecided. That group could swing toward a “leave” position for a variety of reasons, including what might be temporary EU problems with refugees. However temporary the reasons might be, a decision to leave would be politically irreversible..

Fuck it, I'm so old that I voted to stay in the European Economic Community back in the 70's. That means that I remember how difficult it was to actually get to join the European club back in the day. People are wittering on about a "once in a lifetime chance to make this decision". FFS I'm not even retired yet and by the end of June I'll have voted twice on this issue. But if the little Englanders and racists get their way that wil be the end of the line for Britain in European. We have been part of the European enterprise for nearly half a century but almost the whole time we have whinged and bitched about how we are the special snowflake of Europe, we need special terms and only want to be part of the bits that we like. And after all this time we still talk about Europe as though it was an us and them situation. If we just got the fuck over ourselves and accepted that we are Europeans and have been for longer than most of this board has been alive then maybe we would stop behaving like a spoiled brat who is throwing a tantrum because somebody stole our Empire! If we fuck it up this time there is no way back

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 03, 2016, 01:02:29 pm
Well, I've been calling this for a while:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181749/EU-referendum-France-issues-Calais-migrant-warning-over-British-EU-referendum-live.html

Quote
The Telegraph understands Boris Johnson and George Osborne are being lined up to debate the future of Britain in the European Union in front of a 12,000-strong audience just 48 hours before the in/out referendum on June 23.
The BBC debate at Wembley Arena - the broadcaster's biggest ever "campaign event" - will be the first time that the two most likely successors to David Cameron as Tory leader have faced eachother in front of a live audience.

That will be depressing to watch. The only question is will they fling more shit at each other or just on themselves?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on March 03, 2016, 03:49:09 pm
Well, I've been calling this for a while:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181749/EU-referendum-France-issues-Calais-migrant-warning-over-British-EU-referendum-live.html

Quote
The Telegraph understands Boris Johnson and George Osborne are being lined up to debate the future of Britain in the European Union in front of a 12,000-strong audience just 48 hours before the in/out referendum on June 23.
The BBC debate at Wembley Arena - the broadcaster's biggest ever "campaign event" - will be the first time that the two most likely successors to David Cameron as Tory leader have faced eachother in front of a live audience.

That will be depressing to watch. The only question is will they fling more shit at each other or just on themselves?

How will we know who wins? Judges with buzzers? Applaud-o-meter? Telephone vote?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 03, 2016, 04:09:00 pm
As I understand it, Tabloid headlines.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 03, 2016, 04:10:09 pm
Or when one successfully distends their jaw and devours the other.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 03, 2016, 05:22:18 pm
When the pig orgasms.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Pæs on March 04, 2016, 01:51:36 am
 :lol:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 04, 2016, 04:39:04 am
When the pig orgasms.

:mittens:

My god, man. The imagery is perfect.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 10:41:23 am
Hey Cain, What's your take on the IDS resignation? My inital reaction was that he had shares in Pepsi and/or it's actually a backhanded EU shot. Despite how it's being played as him "quitting over the disability cuts" a lot of his statements don't really make that explicit and I suspect it's just a useful excuse for him. Hell, given his level of incompetence, it may just be a "quit before anyone notices how fucked shit is" move.

In any event, I suspect fuckery is afoot. For reference for those not from round these parts, this is a chap that is not known for his sympathetic attitudes to disabled people or poverty.

Here's a nice run down of his record up to Jan '14. I doubt the past year-ish has seen him do much better.

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2014/01/the-cost-of-ids-100-ways-iain-duncan.html

While some is questionable to relate directly to him, it's nice that it's all cited.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on March 21, 2016, 11:01:11 am
Beware the I D S of March
MMIX
disabled, poor
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2016, 11:04:51 am
Lots of people think he's angling for HomeSec in a Boris Johnson government.  Which he likely is.

I actually think it's sorta legit, too.  IDS has always been one of those moralizing, neo-Victorian types, who actually does have something of a moral sense...his economic understanding of how to solve the issues of poverty are terrible and bound up in a whole bunch of moral nonsense, but he does actually have some basic human compassion and despite completely fucking it up, he does want to help people.  He's not alone, even on the right, in thinking these cuts are completely unjustifiable.

He may also be thinking long term.  Going this hard, against a group which, as he admitted, "don't vote Tory" will provoke a backlash.  Just imagine if, say, a PM Corbyn used the complete lack of empathy on display here to justify similar punitive measures against core Tory demographics.  Even in politics, there are unspoken rules and recognised red lines.  One can certainly punish and whip the other side's supporters to a degree...but without limits, the whole thing falls apart.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 11:53:50 am
Quote
Lots of people think he's angling for HomeSec in a Boris Johnson government.  Which he likely is.

Gods, that's a horrific concept. Quitting now for a potential future job does seem like a possible move though I hope it turns out to be a poor decision.

The shape of the tory party in general post EU referendum is probably going to be grim in either event. Whichever way it goes, extremists will get rewarded by a shiny new leader.


Gods, imagine it. Boris talking to Trump about anything. The shape of politics in 2017 is idiots wearing wigs screaming about the need for big walls.   
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2016, 12:14:57 pm
That's what is going to happen.  Especially if Brexit happens, but possibly even if it doesn't.

Cameron blatantly wants to appoint George Osbourne as his successor, but the party won't play ball, and Osbourne's acumen as the strategic visionary of the Tory Party is...somewhat questionable.  With so many of the Cabinet defecting from the PM's own position on Europe, he's looking especially weak and unpersuasive.  Gove, IDS, Grayling, Whittingdale, Patel...throw in an assortment of backbenches and you practically have the next Tory cabinet already formed.

And Boris of course intends to use Brexit to solidify his position as the backbencher's favourite.

So the future indeed seems to involve a lot of bad hair.  Ah well, at least there's Justin Trudeau:

(http://i.imgur.com/KaYSEqCg.jpg?1)

nevermind.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 01:00:36 pm
Quote
Gove, IDS, Grayling, Whittingdale, Patel...throw in an assortment of backbenches and you practically have the next Tory cabinet already formed.

Considering the possible shape of things in the next 18-ish months, I can't dismiss that as the horror story I would like to. Again, it's worse when you realise the probable alternative is the missing names of the current cabinet so it's a bleak outlook in either event.

I'm actually struggling to decide which would be worse. Incompetent evil or ideological evil?

I suspect Boris may be the slightly worse option as his ADD will put him in front of cameras and awkward social situations more frequently. This will lead to a media glut of "Look at boris being boris. Forget that he used to be a "Have I got news for you" punchline please". Osbourne seems more likely to just try and get the day over with as quickly as possible with as little fuss and attention as possible so he can get back to his pile of crack.

I should note that the last sentence may be inaccurate. It may be a "heap" or "bag" of crack, depends when his dealer was last visiting.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2016, 11:47:33 am
Somewhat relevant:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/05/iain-duncan-smith-wept-tv-interview-ian-hislop-workers-or-shirkers

Quote
In the programme, to be aired this Thursday, Duncan Smith’s voice quivers and his eyes fill with tears when he talks about meeting a 19-year-old single mother who had given up hope of work. Saying that she reminded him of his daughter, he says: “I’m sorry I’m quite emotional about these ... 19-years-old ... My aspiration for my daughter was boundless. And here I’m sitting with a 19-year-old girl who had written off her life and had no aspiration and no self-worth. She was a product of a system.

Asked whether he tried to comfort Duncan Smith, Hislop said: “No, I just watched him cry. We’re sitting in the Department for Work and Pensions talking about his desire to increase the lot of those without any privileges or start in life and he starts welling up.”

I can't dismiss acting, but either way it's always nice when a pillar of the system points out that it's actually the fucking system that is causing problems.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:04:19 pm
So, just over 3 weeks to the referendum and everything is looking like shit.

About the only person who seems intent on having an actual debate on the EU is Gary Younge...and he had to steelman several Leave arguments to do so.  The Remain camp are no better...yes, lots of people who want to vote to exit are racist, but pointing out they're racist isn't going to shame them into voting the way you want.

The polls suggest the Leave campaign has a slight lead.  That could change...but indications are worrying.  The EU is already preparing retaliatory measures for any stupid post-Brexit UK policies (see the Dutch comments today re: immigration.  Note Holland has traditionally been something of an ally of the UK in the EU) and the economic and political fallout could be immense.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:12:32 pm
And to add to the fun, Donald Trump has announced he will be visiting the UK on June 24th, when the results are declared  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 01, 2016, 06:22:50 pm
From what I can tell, leaving would totally fuck England's economy, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:33:37 pm
Well, depending on who you talk to, yes and no.  Some projections have the sky falling in, others say we will somehow be able to negotiate even better deals outside of the EU, despite having less leverage.

A lot will depend on exactly how stupid we want to be in negotiations with the EU, as they are our major trading partner.  I think it would be fair to say that, in the short term at the very least there will be some sharp shocks.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:39:22 pm
Oh, because an EU exit would result in a likely vote of no-confidence in the government, our next government could end up being led by Boris Johnson.

That's also a factor to consider.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 02, 2016, 12:41:09 am
My Scottish friends are all saying they will be there to voting out of spite for staying in the EU and should the UK leave they would demand the right to remain in the EU Even if England and wales left. Could something like this break up the Union? They are talking about borders in Northern Ireland again.

Years from now school children will be visiting David Cameron’s grave to read the inscription "Here lies the man who killed the last lingering remnants of the British Empire, he also fucked a pig"
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2016, 01:16:49 am
It definitely could, yes.

This was an insane, stupid gamble from the very start, which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the splits in the Tory Party and enshrining an English Parliament.  If Cameron wins...he shuts up the Eurosceptics for another 20 years. And if he loses and Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland all dispute that to the point of ending the Union...the Tory party then has a structural majority in English politics, based on voting patterns over the last century or so, and won't lose any elections in the near future.

Of course, this does mean completely ignoring the national interest in remaining in the EU.  No matter the outcome, pursuing such an insane gamble for such petty party political purposes will cause history to judge him harshly.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2016, 08:37:53 am
Pretty sure history will be much more interested in the pig thing
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 02, 2016, 10:08:30 am
I'm pretty sure it will judge them harshly for it.

Firstly, it's worth stating that the volume of pigfuckers will, like everything, be higher than anticipated and probably extend to all the MP's and such that you would suspect it to and a few more for good measure. Blair, for example, will have done something similar.

Secondly, it's just piss poor. Saudi Kings buy solid gold cars. Ancient Emperors went full Caligula. We get these weak kneed fucks who bugger livestock. For fucks sake, even the Wehrmacht had a better go at decadence than this lot.

Thirdly, when they do try and throw some spectacle for the peasantry, you get wonders such as the millennium dome, Olympics, parties for the monarchy which are always:
1-from public funds, so fuck you
2-Filled with shite you hate, fuck you
3-Universally acclaimed by the media outlets that benefit from them, fuck you this isn't for you. It's an expensive advert for the tourist trade.


Overall, I suspect the vote will mainly show how much of a racism problem the UK has at the moment. I'm moderately inclined to assume it will be rigged anyway as there is simply too much money at stake to bail out of it.

And also, possible Boris Government. I fucking warned you all for years and it was just funny. There's no way that twat could slip in. Well ha fucking ha, this is looking inevitable eventually now. It'll be like Blair with less words and more blithering.


Something of a sidenote, but I've seen full blown tent cities in 6 or so cities in the Northwest UK now. Homelessness seems to be a quickly increasing problem everywhere (anecdotal....) and I can't see this improving anytime soon. The Leave vote would almost certainly make it worse however.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 08, 2016, 10:34:32 am
Discussing the EU last night with a good associate and he asks if I think things will go badly either way. Short version:

You know the prisoner's dilemma? Where you both always need to co-operate to do well? And as soon as 1 side defects that results in both sides getting screwed over? Then you've got a long series of tit-for-tat while you try and work together again? Think of the EU as a Prison wing. You're now playing Co-operate/defect with 30 odd other people too. And the UK is considering snitching to the guards about the hooch. Now regardless of whether they do or not, they're still going to get a kicking and not be allowed any hooch. Got to keep the rest of the inmates in line, see? 

You know the other thing about prisons? The heating systems aren't great. And it'll be winter soon. So what do you think will happen with the prices in french owned power stations? Russia might want to sell us a blanket, but it passes through the block to get here and by that point it won't be so cheap. Or clean. Would you really be surprised if a vote in summer directly caused deaths in winter? I fucking wouldn't.



I'm not 100% on the countries as prisoners metaphor but there may be something there. Apparently no-one's really mentioned potential implications on fuel costs and I would assume this to be one of the first things that goes wild. The vast majority of UK power stations are owned by other countries. The inevitable seems fucking obvious.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2016, 11:41:57 am
German politicians have been considering this, but in the event of a Leave vote occuring.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant of it even if we stayed, but I think it would be pretty indistinguishable from how things already are for us in Europe: we have no influence, no political capital and no allies, except a bunch of weird clerical fascists in Poland, because we act like little bitches and cry and stamp our feet whenever we don't get our way, and refuse any kind of compromise.  Only now Juncker will actually probably tell Cameron to go fuck himself instead of pretending to give a shit.

Jesus fucking Christ.  I may have mentioned this point about, oh, half a billion times, but Blair for all his fauilts had Europe locked down.  He played the EU like a fiddle, by building issue-based coalitions and appearing to be open to compromise and discussion.  By the time Blair left office, the UK was considered the third major force in the EU after Germany and France. 

The deterioration of UK foreign policy under Cameron is something future historians are definitely going to make note of.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2016, 02:11:20 pm
The UK is connected regardless of what happens, they will have to sign up to the Single European Energy market, as they will have to import as they have been daily to avoid a blackout scenario.

Now the weird thing with the ISEM is it is based on collective bargaining to get the best prices. There were already provisions for the UK because of the sterling, but there would be a need for more for the collective bargaining which is going to look like a very strange. It would basically be the confederated states of Europe + UK, unless they wanted to bargain on their own, which would almost certainly result in shortages or buying expensive energy from Europe.

EDIT: I realise most of this reads as gibberish, long story short is because Europes going to be setting energy prices, is physically connected to the UK grid, and because europe performs collective bargaining with the EU, the UK's going to get dragged along regardless of membership of the EU, or get shafted on energy costs for importing and exporting
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2016, 09:01:25 pm
Once they realise the natural superiority of the English speaking people, Im sure they will cut us a deal.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2016, 09:20:06 pm
And if that doesnt work out there's always the old coal mines laying about, if you can shake the Thatcher ghosts out of them.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 11:14:50 am
Quote
I realise most of this reads as gibberish, long story short is because Europes going to be setting energy prices, is physically connected to the UK grid, and because europe performs collective bargaining with the EU, the UK's going to get dragged along regardless of membership of the EU, or get shafted on energy costs for importing and exporting

This.

There's also other imports/exports to consider. For example, the metals markets are what is technically known as "Fucked", mainly due to collusion between China and Turkey. Directly in the UK, huge job losses in the sector and I doubt it will ever really recover. Money is being thrown around in Cardiff to try and keep shit happening there but the North is FUBAR.

Likely outcomes?

1-Someone throws money at metal, and keeps going. Imports are still cheaper until a "Fuck you" tariff is imposed. This tariff will never be imposed as unlike the US, we are in no position to fuck with China. Did I mention China own a few things over here? Power stations, government buildings, nothing important.

1B-Someone throws money at it, finds there's no export market as they can all still get the cheap gear. That's being kind and assuming the EU doesn't slap on some kind of protective/punitive tariff on metal imported from the UK.

1C- Someone throws money at it and it's bread and honey all day long. Sounds legit.

2-No-one throws money at the problem, a bunch more people end up unemployed and you still import everything.   

3-Government Nationalises part or all of it. Costs a shitload and then gets sold to cronies at the slightest sign up an upturn in the market. Performance is irrelevant as the facilities will be mothballed and only a skeleton staff kept on for show. Causes many issues as the next troubled industry/business will expect the same thing. Worth noting, no-one gave a shit about SSI/Redcar and others so any move like that is also a huge fuck you to those who were shafted earlier and harder. Also worth noting that for any "job loss" figures you can reasonably add 33-66% based on the size of the site and ancillary support services. There's a shitload of small business that tie into the big mills and they are frequently their sole client. Goes without saying, these chaps are pretty much fucked.

The other thing that this did was open up the fuckery with Pensions. This is probably one of the biggest upcoming scandals that has really to break yet. We've had various hints that funds are fucked, empty and worthless but I would put massive bets on the entire fucking industry to be fucked, empty and worthless. The horse trading around employee's pensions in TATA and BHS recently does give a fairly clear idea that there is literally nothing in the fucking pot. When this starts to break properly, I'd assume the EU will be used as the scapegoat whichever way the vote falls.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2016, 12:29:21 pm
The pensions thing is a global(first world) problem. People are living longer, and the recession took a load of young working age people out of the pool.
So even without any dickery on behalf of the pension companies, we were already looking at big problems in the next 20 years for people retiring.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 12:42:52 pm
It would logically follow that the EU, being first world counties will have similar and widespread issues.

I strongly suspect that this isn't a problem in ~20 years, I'm seeing a serious fuckup within 5. The EU may be able to cope with it as an entity but I think it'll be too large for any single country to deal with on their own. Austerity #2 anyone?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2016, 05:47:44 pm
So much of what we do is entangled with European institutions and bodies which are either run directly through or with strong influence from the EU nowadays.  It would be shorter to discuss those things which are not, by far.

Once again, these are the kind of things that, if we were being serious about discussing EU membership we should be discussing.  But the Leave and Remain campaigns are fundamentally unserious in their whole approach to this thing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 07:06:14 pm
I'm sorry, did you say something about Immigration?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2016, 03:55:03 pm
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-kingdom/2016-06-08/conservative-case-against-brexit/
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on June 13, 2016, 05:40:25 pm
It's a bit amusing to see Norwegian anti-EU politicians tell UK media that the "Norway option" is great and that life in the EEA is such a bed of roses, while at home the same people are arguing for Norway to leave or renegotiate the EEA agreement. If the UK wants to "regain sovereignty" and "control the borders", that option is shit. Norway does control agricultural and fishery policies, but in most other sectors we just have to accept EU regulations and directives with no means of influencing the decision-making process except for a few lobbyists in Brussels that nobody listens to. We have a "right of reservation", but it's mostly on paper and we've used it once (and then the next government overturned that decision). It's a tolerable enough agreement for a small country like Norway, but an aspiring (expiring?) world power voluntarily turning itself into a protectorate under the EU sounds just weird and degrading.

I'm a bit worried, though, that a Brexit will unleash all the ugly nationalisms of Europe and that there'll soon be no EU to speak of.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2016, 08:04:57 pm
This has actually been discussed.

Like, just today.  Seriously, that's how bad the media and political discourse on the EU is here.  Everyone is like "tEh nOrWeGiAn oPtIoN1!2!" and it took people 4 months to go "well, actually, maybe we should ask some Norwegians what they think about their deal?"

I'm starting to feel quite nervous about the whole thing.  The polls are way too close to call.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2016, 12:18:50 pm
Hey Cain,

I'm becoming more suspicious about some of the public faces of the leave side. I'm fairly sure that some of these have actually made quite a bit of cash during this "austerity" bullshit and are likely to make more money with further cut-backs and restrictive measures. Am I on the right line of thinking here?


In other news, Geldof and Farage buggered about on boats. This is one of the few times when it's tragic not to hear the phrase "...there were no survivors"

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 16, 2016, 01:11:12 pm
Possibly, depends on the faces you have in mind.

And true.  Fuck me, it'd take Farage for me to like Geldof, the self-important, sanctimonious twat that he is.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2016, 03:20:15 pm
Boris and gove mainly, pretty sure every corporate figure to throw around a leave letter would also fit the bill. Jcb in particular there.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 17, 2016, 04:50:52 pm
Did anyone watch Gove being a cunt (on Question Time) for about 90 minutes straight the other day?

He had about 3 lines - "Immigrants", "faith in the British people" and "Make Britain great again" and just proceeded to completely ignore most of the points the audience brought up.

I am honestly getting more and more worried - I have heard a number of the people that I work with saying straight-faced they thing that leaving is the right thing to do because 'well, we'll be able to control our borders.'

Also am I the only one who has heard -nothing- from the remain side? Surely they could be doing more work picking apart the bullshit that Leave is spouting.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2016, 04:59:45 pm
I didn't see Gove, but the Remain campaign are honestly awful.  In theory it should be easy to rip apart the leave campaign, but instead they're relying on bullshit scare stories to counter Leave's bullshit scare stories.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 17, 2016, 05:24:19 pm
Problem with the politics of fear is that it's damnably effective so why bother using anything else?, From a casual spectator's perspective it gets right fucking boring, tho.  :argh!:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 17, 2016, 05:48:05 pm
Johnathan Pie pretty much nails it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0)  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 18, 2016, 05:28:12 pm
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

Quote
Brexit would bring the “further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence”
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit “very dramatically” by Brexit

I'm in favor of anything that will sink the TTIP
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 18, 2016, 06:07:57 pm
Yes, we know, you're a one-issue fanatic and it's terribly tiresome.

Never mind the hundreds of other issues that the British exit from the EU might have.  All the foreign workers in the UK, all the UK citizens overseas who will lose their residency rights.  Never mind pretty much all the predictions showing the economy will go into a sharp recession.  Never mind the shock to the already fragile looking global economy.  Never mind all of that...your pet issue will be addressed, and that is all that matters.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 19, 2016, 05:37:28 pm
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

Quote
Brexit would bring the “further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence”
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit “very dramatically” by Brexit

I'm in favor of anything that will sink the TTIP

This is what fanaticism is, same as ISIS, Trump voters, and Justin Beiber groupies.

well done, that man.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 20, 2016, 11:31:31 am
3 days to go.

I'm actually working Wednesday night, so I suppose Thursday morning I'll go to a polling station, sleep the rest of the day off and see what the polls are saying while I'm on the night shift.

They reckon all the ballots will be counted by Friday, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  This is going to be very close.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 05:05:12 pm
Well, I discharged my democratic duties around 7am.

Normally this would call for a drink, but even though I had just finished work it was still only 7am, and given what the results may be tomorrow morning, I may need to drink then instead.

It's worth remembering this vote isn't, strictly speaking legally binding.  Of course, no government is going to go against it because that would be political suicide, but this does bring up the potential (if unlikely) scenario of there being a dead heat.  As the head of the Electoral Commission said, this is an "advisory referendum", so if it's a dead heat, she will declare that.  Then the politicians will have to decide.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 23, 2016, 05:37:28 pm
What's the time difference?  I hear first results will be coming in around midnight, London time.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 23, 2016, 06:28:55 pm
I voted without having to provide any i.d. Seems prone to voter fraud. Just "name, address?" *crosses out my name on a big list* "there you go."

LMNO - Individual constituencies will start announcing their votes at midnight but it won't all be fully accounted for until about 7am apparently. That might be.. 1 or 2am for you?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 23, 2016, 06:32:17 pm
Oh, and apparently half of London (and probably the rest of the country) is flooded so it's chaos.

Cain made a smart move voting earlier.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 06:40:04 pm
What's the time difference?  I hear first results will be coming in around midnight, London time.

Time as of posting this message is 18:37.

I've heard final results should be "around" breakfast time.

I voted without having to provide any i.d. Seems prone to voter fraud. Just "name, address?" *crosses out my name on a big list* "there you go."

That's usual.  The checks are done when you register.

Oh, and apparently half of London (and probably the rest of the country) is flooded so it's chaos.

Cain made a smart move voting earlier.

Not surprised.  It rained pretty hard last night.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 11:53:21 pm
Gibraltar has voted to Remain.  No real surprise there.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 12:14:49 am
Newcastle remains - but just barely.  Bit of a concern that, Newcastle was projected to be a solid victory.  Pound has started to lose value on that news coming out.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 12:28:53 am
Sunderland voted to leave.  Pound is getting wobbly...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 24, 2016, 02:40:59 am
The money to be made shorting the pound hadn't occurred to me... oh shit!
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 03:45:07 am
Leave has been ahead all night so far.  Current tally via the BBC is 8.1 million for leave and 7.6 for remain.  16.8 million is apparently the winning number, based on estimated number of votes.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:39:43 am
Sterling is shitting itself, as the Leave gain grows to 800,000 over Remain
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:44:11 am
BBC has just forecast a win for the Leave campaign
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:02:25 am
Leave currently has a million more voters than remain.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:08:22 am
Keith Vaz was on the verge of tears, poor man is shell-shocked. I know how he feels.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:09:06 am
Farage, by contrast, has been acting like a complete twat all night.

Moreso than usual, I mean.  Completely insufferable
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:13:21 am
Farage, by contrast, has been acting like a complete twat all night.

Moreso than usual, I mean.  Completely insufferable

Yeah, and I loved the bit when he declared that this revolution had been achieved without a shot being fired. My chin hit the floor. Can we say tasteless?
Also - the closeness of the result seems as if it is within the bounds of the postal votes - most of which were registered before Jo Cox was assassinated.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:29:12 am
Tasteless in the extreme.

Scotland has voted 62% to remain, as well.  So this is going to get messy.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:36:52 am
Yeah and
Sinn Fein calls for 'referendum on a united Ireland'
ITV News‎ - 23 mins ago

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:52:57 am
And so it begins...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 06:01:33 am
BBC has just confirmed it. I feel sick
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:14:07 am
Japan's already suffering economic strain from this.  Brexit completely fucks their plans for the Yen
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 06:19:06 am
Brexit is poisonous - and we are going to spread it worldwide like some sort of political ebola.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:20:51 am
And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:28:08 am
Brexit is poisonous - and we are going to spread it worldwide like some sort of political ebola.

This could be world-historical bad.  I've been accused of being paranoid, of being a worst-case scenario kind of person.  But I can see the dominoes dropping...a world economic crisis.  The collapse and dissolution of the EU.  Russia, behind the scenes, bankrolling far-right and Eurosceptic parties to drive a wedge between Europe and America.  A political crisis turns to a landgrab in the Baltic states...NATO cannot intervene, not without a year of preparation, and not while increasingly popular, pro-Russian parties denounce American imperialism.

And that's just the European fallout.  The American election...China?  The Middle East?  This is going to have knock-on effects from knock-on effects and when people look back, they'll say "well, you can't blame the British for everything, but they certainly helped get the ball rolling".

And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Pergamos on June 24, 2016, 06:48:42 am
I had heard a rumor that Scotland might have a separate referendum to remain in the EU but perhaps not in the UK, is that true?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:55:41 am
At least the British are still as humorous as ever. Better laugh until you cry.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-brext-episode?utm_term=.wt6OeQQLMV#.ju8MlYYRxk
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:57:21 am

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.

You think after seeing what it's done to his precious money, he won't change his mind? Man's been waffling as much as maple tappers.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 07:17:01 am
I had heard a rumor that Scotland might have a separate referendum to remain in the EU but perhaps not in the UK, is that true?

Everything is rumours right now.

The SNP, the Scottish Nationalists, have said before now though that if Scotland votes overwhelmingly to remain (and it did) but the UK votes to leave, then it will "have to examine all options".

We just opened a massive fucking can of worms, that may lead to the dissolution of the UK as a political entity. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 07:17:46 am

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.

You think after seeing what it's done to his precious money, he won't change his mind? Man's been waffling as much as maple tappers.

Depends what his pro-Russian campaign advisor tells him to think.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 24, 2016, 08:25:56 am
Cameron's stepping down (by October).

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 24, 2016, 08:51:50 am
Finally democracy delivers some chaos I can get behind!
:drama1:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 09:02:50 am
I'm really worried about northern Ireland, apart from border controls, both the unionists and the republicans are going to dig in and go back to the bad old nationalistic days, bombings from the IRA, child murder by the British Soldiers. 

The best they could hope for at the moment is declaring themselves an independent nation state, which would both be in the commonwealth and in Europe, which would leave exactly no one happy: The people who want a 32 county Republic would be pissed off, the ones who consider themselves British would be pissed off, and everyone in the UK would be pissed off because it would be a back door for migration into the UK.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 11:35:02 am
and Scotland says the second Scottish independence referendum is now on the table. So no surprise there then. But that nice wee Nicola Sturgeon has rpomised that they will still be our best friend . . .
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 11:45:44 am
Scotland was always going to be automatically triggered into another referendum based on the conditions of the 2014 vote, something like "Any significant change to the status of Scotland" was put in there in the event of something like this.

I was surprised this morning, a lot of the young Unionists in the north are saying they are really disappointed over the result and would be open to a referendum for northern Ireland, I would have thought now would be the time they would dig the heels in over this.

Spain is calling for Gibraltar to either be handed over, or be joint sovereignty. I know they are one of the more complex ones because of their location, wonder would this result in a friendly annexing of it?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 02:39:38 pm
And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.

Ahem

Quote
US presidential hopeful Donald Trump has said it is a "great thing" that the people of the UK have "taken back their country" in voting to leave the EU.

Quote
Comedian Simon Brodkin later disrupted Mr Trump's news conference by waving golf balls with a swastika on them.

Quote
"People are angry all over the world. They're angry over borders, they're angry over people coming into the country and taking over and nobody even knows who they are.
"They're angry about many, many things in the UK, the US and many other places. This will not be the last."

So it's looking like a full blown shitshow ahead. Morgan Stanley are apparently shifting 2000 staff out of London. Apparently China are still keen to trade with us. Obviously they would never capitalise of a bad situation and force out some quick one-sided trade deals to allow whoever to claim that everything's all right. 

In about 6 months when we've suffered Boris for a while and the plans for the NHS are openly on the table, I doubt many will be as keen. For fucks sake, in less than 6 months it'll be cold again and people across the UK will shit themselves at the heating bills.

I'm fairly tempted to shift back home for a while to be honest. I've seen a shocking (even for me) degree of racism over the past few months and this is essentially a license to continue. I'm pretty sure this will escalate over the next few weeks too.


Faust/Cain, I'm not fully up on the Irish situation, but does this have a bad feel to you? I can't see border crossing and a trump style wall getting shoved around Northern Ireland and surely some elements there would (strongly) object to such a thing? 

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 03:46:03 pm
Both Northern Ireland and the Republic are saying there will be no need for the boarders to reopen, which is good, but will piss off the Farage types, as it will be viewed as a back door into the UK.

It's convenient for everyone actually living in the Republic and Northern Ireland though as it means those who commute between the two wont have to go through the tedium of a border check every time.

In fact since the borders were removed however many years ago, new roads cross diagonally between the north and south so for instance if I wanted to drive to Donegal from Dublin, there's a small section in the north, so you'd need two boarder checks(In and out) for an hours drive.

I am really really scared about violence kicking off up there again though.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 04:00:54 pm
As much as I wish it wasn't the case, I'm even more sure now that various violent acts are inevitable. I know it's anecdotal but I've literally heard over a dozen people today express less than enlightened opinions.

For me, it's not "if", it's when and where.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:34:20 pm
I'm hoping the progress that has happened over the past decade in Northern Ireland will mean Sinn Fein and the Unionists are willing to discuss this through peaceful means.

But all it could take is one with idiot with a pipe bomb...you know how things go from there.

Junk, do you mean violence in England?  I'm worried if the economic turmoil continues, we could be looking at riots.  Also, with Boris et al suggesting things go slow (which is the right thing...as right as anything can be right now) I can see various idiot sorts looking for their instant "kick the foreigners out" gratification.

I'd just like to note, on a personal level, this completely screws my parents retirement plan.  They had hoped, if the pound remained strong, to return to Australia and make use of the value discrepnancy.  Failing that, their idea was to move to Malta, due to a similar climate and cost of living.  But now the pound is in freefall and Malta's no longer an option.  So thanks, Brexiters.  You haven't screwed my family over as badly as some others, but you've definitely fucked things up.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:42:22 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611512

Quote
As well as the banks, the housebuilding sector was also badly hit, with shares in Bovis Homes down more than 20% in afternoon trading.

"Financials and housebuilders are bearing the brunt of the pain, with Lloyds Bank being one of the biggest fallers," said Laith Khalaf, senior analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown, highlighting Lloyds' 21% slump.

"It's probably safe to say the public sale of the bank is now firmly in the long grass, and the return to full private ownership of both Lloyds and RBS has been knocked off course."

The Bank of England said it was "monitoring developments closely" and would take "all necessary steps" to support monetary stability.

In New York, the Dow Jones fell 2.6%, more than 400 points, in the opening minutes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36617918

Quote
Boris Johnson, a key figure in the Leave campaign was booed by an angry crowd as he left his north London home.

The volatile scenes came after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

Quote
The Spanish government has called for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar in the wake of the UK's vote to leave the EU.

The British overseas territory of 30,000 voted overwhelmingly for remain, with 95.9% opting to stay in the union.

"The Spanish flag on the Rock is much closer than before," Spain's acting Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said on Friday.

Gibraltar has been a British territory since 1713 but Spain continues to claim sovereignty over the enclave.

At the entrance to the Mediterranean, Gibraltar relies heavily on its shared EU border with Spain for trade.

In a radio interview, Mr Garcia-Margallo said: "It's a complete change of outlook that opens up new possibilities on Gibraltar not seen for a very long time.

"I hope the formula of co-sovereignty - to be clear, the Spanish flag on the Rock - is much closer than before."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777

Quote
Two Labour MPs have submitted a motion of no confidence in Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

Dame Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey confirmed the move in a letter to the Parliamentary Labour Party chairman.

The motion has no formal constitutional force but calls for a discussion at their next PLP meeting on Monday.

It will be up to the PLP chairman to decide whether it is debated. If accepted it would be followed by a secret ballot of Labour MPs on Tuesday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561095

Quote
Stock markets around the world sink following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, as the pound tanks.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 04:48:53 pm
 :aaa:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:49:04 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quote
he whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 04:52:57 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quote
he whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

That is a very American concept of how and when to educate yourself on a vote.  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 04:58:01 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quote
he whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

That is a very American concept of how and when to educate yourself on a vote.  :lulz:

This is the fucking shit I expected to see.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:02:17 pm
"Oh no, my vote actually counted?"

"Oh no, the EU does more than send DIRTY IMMIGRANTS to the UK every day?"

Fuck these people.  Fuck them with a sharp stick.  They had their chance, and they chose to abrogate their duty to be a good citizen and learn the basics of the country they live in and outsource the whole process to a gaggle of rightwing press barons.  They're getting everything they deserve.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Freeky on June 24, 2016, 05:16:03 pm
ITT, Cain speaks prophecy. :horrormirth:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 05:29:12 pm
"Oh no, my vote actually counted?"

"Oh no, the EU does more than send DIRTY IMMIGRANTS to the UK every day?"

Fuck these people.  Fuck them with a sharp stick.  They had their chance, and they chose to abrogate their duty to be a good citizen and learn the basics of the country they live in and outsource the whole process to a gaggle of rightwing press barons.  They're getting everything they deserve.

Yeah, that is exactly my feeling when people in Kentucky start to bitch that NOTHING WORKS.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 05:31:32 pm
The thing is, too many people view their vote as a means by which to piss off the other side.  And then they are shocked that real things happen.

This is pretty much exactly how Arizona operates.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:04:22 pm
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:13:06 pm
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.

That, and what happens to all the Brits currently living and working in various EU countries.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 06:16:08 pm
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:16:30 pm
And all the Europeans living and working in the UK.

My own shift co-worker is Spanish, and 90% of the maintenance team are Polish, Spanish or Brazilian.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:18:41 pm
And all the Europeans living and working in the UK.

My own shift co-worker is Spanish, and 90% of the maintenance team are Polish, Spanish or Brazilian.

Good point.

I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.

International shipping is gonna be FUN again.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:18:54 pm
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.

Likely, as we're being idiots.

Unfortunately for Gibraltar, there is a LOT of cross-border activity which will have to be shut down now.  If Spain holds out, for joint sovereignty or nothing...well, Gibraltans voted to Remain for a very good reason, that their economy will be up shit creek without free movement into Spain.  They'd have as strong an argument as Scotland or Northern Ireland for sorting out their own arrangements, and due to the unusual legal standing of Gibraltar as a UK territory, could even possibly make them stick.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 09:47:02 pm
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 09:53:31 pm
I do need to take this moment and give a shout out to Scotland for being, well, Scotland.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/donald-trump-was-the-victim-of-some-vicious-british-insults-which-are-incredible-and-my-new-favorite-thing/

Swastika golf balls.  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 11:14:45 pm
The thing is, too many people view their vote as a means by which to piss off the other side.  And then they are shocked that real things happen.

This is pretty much exactly how Arizona operates.

QG, could you have a play with this? Suspect it will be relevant forever.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 11:46:07 pm
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.

Well Wales is financially fucked now, without that EU investment.

Everything I'm seeing on the news is depressing me more and more right now.  I've said it often, but I really mean it now - this country is fucked.

I'm even considering going back to Australia.  That's how bad this is.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 25, 2016, 12:52:45 am
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.

Well Wales is financially fucked now, without that EU investment.

Everything I'm seeing on the news is depressing me more and more right now.  I've said it often, but I really mean it now - this country is fucked.

I'm even considering going back to Australia.  That's how bad this is.

Cornwall is fucking doomed.  They voted 56/43 to leave and THEN they want promises that the UK government will make up the missing investments.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 25, 2016, 04:08:33 am
London, meanwhile, is trying to organise its own secession movement.

I'm not 100% on how serious this is, but I've seen references to petitioning Sadiq Khan to declare London a breakaway state or of having London join Scotland.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Emo Howard on June 25, 2016, 04:16:11 am
Some yahoos in Texas are getting secession boners from all this, as well.

Well, I mean, they always have them, they're just pointing at them more vigorously now.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 25, 2016, 04:20:53 am
You got outplayed, Texans.  And by non-Americans, no less.

You talk about secession all the time.  We didn't even care about it until the election last year, and we were told it would fuck up the world economy, and we still did it.

Texas: all mouth, no pants.  Hence the vigorous secession boners in plain sight.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 25, 2016, 04:40:02 am
Some Canadian bitch just posted that the only people this matters to are the British, and that Canadians and Americans need to STFU.

So, I gave her links to the stock market.

Thread magically deleted.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 25, 2016, 04:59:58 am
You got outplayed, Texans.  And by non-Americans, no less.

You talk about secession all the time.  We didn't even care about it until the election last year, and we were told it would fuck up the world economy, and we still did it.

Texas: all mouth, no pants.  Hence the vigorous secession boners in plain sight.

Texans have never been anything but mouth.  They think they're "the west", but they're basically a bunch of trailer parks in Southern Illinois.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 25, 2016, 07:28:45 am
Some yahoos in Texas are getting secession boners from all this, as well.

Well, I mean, they always have them, they're just pointing at them more vigorously now.

Hmm, that would be the kind of turn of events that would force me to reconsider my current position in opposition to that southern border wall plan that keeps cropping up
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: SuuCal on June 25, 2016, 04:03:34 pm
I'm pretty fascinated about how this is going to affect Ireland. I'm not much of an Irish historian, because it's outside of my scope, but the border between NI and the Republic is porous pretty much only because of the EU. I just saw a post on FB that talks about how the OP remembered seeing the guns and guards doing checks, and how both countries fought to gain at least some porosity. All of that is going to go away.

I did read that NI rejected Sinn Fein's proposal, which is unsurprising. I think the damage done on the island is way too far gone to really even work together for unification at this point. But I can see NI definitely giving the UK the finger if it means being able to at least keep an open border between itself and the Republic.

This is fucking terrifying, and I only know a -tiny- bit of early modern/modern Irish history.d

Edit: Addendum. Ugh.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/northern-irish-peace-sacrificed-english-nationalism
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 07:54:47 am
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 26, 2016, 08:48:05 am
That is disgusting. What I saw from the proposed negotiations yesterday from Scotland looked like a nice big fuck you to the racist contingent:
The will remain in the UK if it is possible to also remain in Europe and follow all of the previously agreed upon regulations... IE freedom of movement.
I don't know how that would work: If they can issue a national insurance number then anyone who wants to from Europe could work there.

I imagine the Farage types wouldn't be happy if polish, Romanian etc. could come IN to the country to work (via Scotland), but English and Welsh people couldn't go out to Europe to work.

I know the above scenario couldn’t happen, Sturgeon is just laying the ground work justifications as to why a second referendum for Scottish independence is needed, and why being in the UK and EU at the same time would be far too complicated.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 09:41:48 am
That's one element of Scottish nationalism I'm OK with: it's "plucky underdog" nationalism that resents the English for the most part.

Whether it remains that inclusive once Scotland is independent is another question, but if I were a foreigner in Scotland, I'd take that bet over an independent UK right now.  At the very least, being in the EU would force Scotland to be under the ECHR purview and open up the possibility of retaliatory measures, should the SNP go that way.

Which is another thing.  We're now going to see just how ugly the British state can get, now it's free of having to operate within a European framework, with the possibility of tit-for-tat moves by European partners it was tightly bound with.  "Freedom" sometimes means "the freedom to be a complete shit", and I strongly suspect we will see a lot of the latter in the coming days, weeks and months.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 26, 2016, 01:44:10 pm
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now.

I found myself surprised at seeing how much hate the Polish still get. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 01:52:52 pm
I know, right?  They've been here the best part of 12 years now.  And as far as immigrants go...well, the Poles keep their heads down, get on and work and not much else.  You see the very occasional Polish shop.  No Polish political parties, action groups, Polish only Catholic churches, Polish only areas - compared to with, say, Pakistani Sunni Muslims in the UK, Poles really don't figure on the radar.

Unless you're a Daily Mail reader, one presumes.

And all of the above is ignoring the sizeable Polish community that has existed in the UK since the 1930s.

Well, there's a reason I started drinking early today.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2016, 05:32:57 am
That's fucking rancid. 

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 27, 2016, 08:28:33 am
That's why I'd finished a bottle of red wine by lunch time.  Then I started really drinking.

I feel like it was either that, or doing something really fucking stupid.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 pm
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 27, 2016, 03:38:31 pm
Smoke, it's what I've been doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Quote
Since the EU referendum results revealed the UK voted to leave, people have been compiling reports of racism on social media.

Quote
Former Conservative parliamentary candidate Shazia Awan worked for the Stronger In campaign in Wales. She says she noticed a number of incidents of anti-foreign sentiment.
"When the Leave campaign focussed on the issue of immigration a few weeks before the result, I could feel the difference in how people were acting," she said.
"While I was campaigning, I was speaking to a black woman. A white man walked past and called her the N word."
After the referendum result, Shazia experienced a backlash herself when she tweeted her reaction to the outcome of the vote.
"After I came from the count on Friday morning I posted a tweet about David Cameron being the least worst thing about the Conservative party.
"Then I got a reply saying I should pack my bags and go home - I was born in Caerphilly in Wales.
"I don't like what this means for all of us."

Still anecdotal, but this is very, very fucking mild compared to some of this shit I've heard/seen by now. Knives are being mentioned with an alarming frequency, both aggressively and as the default means to protect yourself.

I'm hoping for someone to say it's just the parts/people I'm dealing with and it's not the norm.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 27, 2016, 03:52:27 pm
Smoke, it's what I've been doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Quote
Since the EU referendum results revealed the UK voted to leave, people have been compiling reports of racism on social media.

Quote
Former Conservative parliamentary candidate Shazia Awan worked for the Stronger In campaign in Wales. She says she noticed a number of incidents of anti-foreign sentiment.
"When the Leave campaign focussed on the issue of immigration a few weeks before the result, I could feel the difference in how people were acting," she said.
"While I was campaigning, I was speaking to a black woman. A white man walked past and called her the N word."
After the referendum result, Shazia experienced a backlash herself when she tweeted her reaction to the outcome of the vote.
"After I came from the count on Friday morning I posted a tweet about David Cameron being the least worst thing about the Conservative party.
"Then I got a reply saying I should pack my bags and go home - I was born in Caerphilly in Wales.
"I don't like what this means for all of us."

Still anecdotal, but this is very, very fucking mild compared to some of this shit I've heard/seen by now. Knives are being mentioned with an alarming frequency, both aggressively and as the default means to protect yourself.

I'm hoping for someone to say it's just the parts/people I'm dealing with and it's not the norm.

There seem to be a large number on what was the 'Leave' side who are now downplaying the importance that people who actually voted placed on immigration. This is likely because none of the innuendoes that the Leave side let slip during their campaigning are going to be easy to achieve.

I don't know how long a situation with this much uncertainty can carry on without some crazy shit happening - from what I can tell we've just fucked ourselves and the main promises of the 'winning' camp are now turning out to be a bunch of wishful thinking and/or straight up lies. Surely people are now going to start asking "Where's this Greater Britain we were promised? What about all that EU money we aren't spending any more?"

I dunno maybe I overestimate the complacency of everyone. Certainly the Conservatives got into power on some similarly difficult to substantiate claims and nobody seemed too upset when they inevitably couldn't fulfil.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 27, 2016, 04:53:53 pm
Ahem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots#Suggested_contributory_factors

Let's just say that the next time the police kill someone, I won't be sleeping too well.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 pm
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 28, 2016, 12:27:18 am
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

The mainland more-so than Britain?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2016, 01:32:15 am
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Benzodiazapine and a casual disregard for your own safety in public.

It works for me.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:11:24 pm
Gove and Johnson were conspicuously absent from Cameron's speech yesterday in the Commons.

Cowards.  Complete and utter cowards, the pair of them.

In other news, the leader of the EU Parliament liberal bloc said today that the biggest waste of money in the EU, paying Nigel Farage's salary, is due to end soon.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:17:08 pm
Johnson has stated if he becomes leader of the Tory party he won't be calling for a general election.

Whichever senior Tory party member who said Gove and Johnson had "engineered a right-wing coup" on Friday, give yourself a cookie.  You called that shit with clarity.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:20:06 pm
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

 :lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2016, 05:43:02 pm
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

 :lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.

And this is still just the beginning.

Please tell me I'm being utterly retarded in worrying that Blair may yet re-appear. I've got a horrible feeling that Chilcot will declare that no-one did anything wrong at any point and he'll use it as an excuse to "unite" people and slip back in.

Farage at the EU was comical. The "man" continues to demonstrate all the charm and political skill of a dead sheep.


On a slightly different note, will you all please make sure you're pronouncing "Farage" correctly. No french affectations, its pronounced to rhyme with "Garage" or "Gay Marriage".

Additionally, for the uneducated:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Farage

Quote
To masturbate in an angry and confused way using unconventional stimuli.
Mark's Wife was furious when she caught him having a farage over a picture of Ann Widdecombe.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2016, 05:49:11 pm
Oho!  Is Farage the new Santorum?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2016, 05:53:07 pm
I've known about that for a few years, that actual definition came out at a Mark Thomas show in liverpool from one of the ushers. Santorum was the inspiration.

It's dangerously accurate, particularly when you look at the backtracking and quotes of the past few days.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on June 28, 2016, 06:59:00 pm
Johnson has stated if he becomes leader of the Tory party he won't be calling for a general election.

Whichever senior Tory party member who said Gove and Johnson had "engineered a right-wing coup" on Friday, give yourself a cookie.  You called that shit with clarity.

Tory Leader Johnson makes early bid for Prime Minister

Prime Minister Johnson "reluctantly accepts" title following unopposed election

Emergency Chancellor Johnson promises to step down after state of unrest

JOHNSON assures British populace there is no "official" curfew
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: rong on June 28, 2016, 07:39:27 pm
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 09:35:07 pm
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 29, 2016, 05:10:18 pm
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

 :lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.

And this is still just the beginning.

Please tell me I'm being utterly retarded in worrying that Blair may yet re-appear. I've got a horrible feeling that Chilcot will declare that no-one did anything wrong at any point and he'll use it as an excuse to "unite" people and slip back in.

Farage at the EU was comical. The "man" continues to demonstrate all the charm and political skill of a dead sheep.


On a slightly different note, will you all please make sure you're pronouncing "Farage" correctly. No french affectations, its pronounced to rhyme with "Garage" or "Gay Marriage".

Additionally, for the uneducated:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Farage

Quote
To masturbate in an angry and confused way using unconventional stimuli.
Mark's Wife was furious when she caught him having a farage over a picture of Ann Widdecombe.


Woah woah WOAH.

"Garage" rhymes with "barrage", not with "marriage".

Who taught you Brits how to speak English, fer chrissake?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 05:37:54 pm
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.

Ok, so - Scotland is a country, right?  England is a country, right?  So, what is the UK?  Also a country? Or, like, a mega-country?  I guess I don't see why EU and UK membership need be mutually exclusive
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2016, 08:24:35 pm
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.

Ok, so - Scotland is a country, right?  England is a country, right?  So, what is the UK?  Also a country? Or, like, a mega-country?  I guess I don't see why EU and UK membership need be mutually exclusive

Depends how you're defining a country.

Scotland does not control its own foreign policy or military.  England does not have its own Parliament - there are enough English MPs in the UK Parliament to outvote MPs from every other part of the UK put together.

The UK is the country, Scotland is more akin to a US state (like, say, Texas) than it is to France.  However, Scotland (like Texas) has also historically been an independent state and Scotland (unlike Texas) also has a very valid claim to being a nation - that is, a distinctive linguistic-cultural group.  Scotland and England joined together to create the UK in the 1700s when England and Scotland ended up having the same King.  Only in recent decades has power been ceded by the UK Parliament back to Scotland.

So, to build on the analogy: Imagine that tomorrow, America voted to withdraw from NATO.  However, Texas disagreed.  So Texas starts to look at how to leave America, in order to remain a member of NATO.  That's probably the strongest American-centric analogy I can come up with.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 09:56:58 pm
Ok - I guess my confusion came from thinking (erroneously) that Scotland, et all were countries when they actually aren't.  Thanks for clarification
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 11:06:00 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

4/5 Would read again  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on June 30, 2016, 11:36:25 am
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

Quote
After a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon’s Sottish National Party (SNP) that “Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay”.

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a “gofer” for the SNP and said he would be “better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people”.
“Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible.”

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 30, 2016, 03:10:07 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: PoFP on June 30, 2016, 03:58:20 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?

Personally, I think "The UK Government" rolls off the tongue better. But other than that, I think the way you've got it formatted there is fantastic.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 04:37:48 pm
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

Quote
After a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon’s Sottish National Party (SNP) that “Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay”.

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a “gofer” for the SNP and said he would be “better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people”.
“Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible.

...said the UKIP MEP

 :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 04:42:10 pm
Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.

That's pretty massive. 

If the backbenchers are feeling slighted or cannot unify around another candidate, this probably means Theresa May as Party leader.

I'm not entirley opposed to that outcome, in the sense that I thin Theresa May, along with Oliver Letwin and Stephen Crabb is one of the few actual adults in the Cabinet (Letwin's a tricky one...he's not obviously stupid, in fact he's quite a bright fellow in a few ways but sometimes you have to restate an idea in several different ways if it runs against his conventional wisdom, to stop him from automatically dismissing it).
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 04:49:53 pm
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?

Try "The Scottish government", though the "devolved parliaments" may be more accurate. Cain?


In other news, I'm having the giggles again. IF boris stays out, the likely winners are either Gove (Hilteresque) and May (Thatcher 2:Austerity boogaloo). Either way somewhere is getting the fuck bombed out of it within 6 months of the choice being made. I'm relatively certain that the US will have an urge shortly too with a new president. What better way to demonstrate your relevance to the world? Trump could go after anywhere, Clinton will probably look at the middle east, because fuck it, why not?

So the question for me is where is the next war happening? What will the UK soon give a fuck about to turn on the meat grinder again? ISIS would be an obvious pick, but there's still those 200 odd missing girls in Africa. That would be a quick way to play the "NOT RACIST" card. I can't see troops heading anywhere that would actually result in some stability so expect migration from fucked places to continue and possibly accelerate. Somewhere is getting bombed to fuck this time next year because of all this fuckery and posturing now, I can see it coming I just don't know where.

As always, taking bets now. Good odds on everywhere apart from anywhere Cain guesses.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 05:36:22 pm
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

Quote
After a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon’s Sottish National Party (SNP) that “Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay”.

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a “gofer” for the SNP and said he would be “better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people”.
“Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible.”

So, "National Democracy" is the new word.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:38:23 pm
So, "National Democracy" is the new word.

It worked out super well for the Poles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democracy).

Try "The Scottish government", though the "devolved parliaments" may be more accurate. Cain?


In other news, I'm having the giggles again. IF boris stays out, the likely winners are either Gove (Hilteresque) and May (Thatcher 2:Austerity boogaloo). Either way somewhere is getting the fuck bombed out of it within 6 months of the choice being made. I'm relatively certain that the US will have an urge shortly too with a new president. What better way to demonstrate your relevance to the world? Trump could go after anywhere, Clinton will probably look at the middle east, because fuck it, why not?

So the question for me is where is the next war happening? What will the UK soon give a fuck about to turn on the meat grinder again? ISIS would be an obvious pick, but there's still those 200 odd missing girls in Africa. That would be a quick way to play the "NOT RACIST" card. I can't see troops heading anywhere that would actually result in some stability so expect migration from fucked places to continue and possibly accelerate. Somewhere is getting bombed to fuck this time next year because of all this fuckery and posturing now, I can see it coming I just don't know where.

As always, taking bets now. Good odds on everywhere apart from anywhere Cain guesses.

"Regional governments" would be another possibility.

With regards to military action, I'm not even sure we can afford it.

As you may know, I gave some evidence to Parliament about Force 2020, the five year plan for the military?  Well that meant doing research on the existing state of the military and quite frankly, it's shocking.

Now, this isn't just the blame of the Tory government, though they do deserve a significant portion of it.

Essentially, we spent the best part of a decade shoving UK troops in whatever firefight we saw fit.  After downsizing at the end of the Cold War.  So, supplies have run down.  We've also seen the biggest boom in the private military and arms sector over the same period, meaning more soldiers are going in, doing their 5 years of service and getting out.

So, after a decade of that, we then cut all military spending.  Meaning we used up most of our stocks, but then didn't allocate the money to upkeep and replacement.  We've been running on fumes the last couple of years, just to convince people we still actually exist, but that's just exacerbated the problem.  Without significant military spending, the UK is not in a good place at all.  And that means taxes going up, more government spending...basically two things the Tories hate and will never do.

The military brass are almost as pissed off as the police right about now, and when you consider the officer corps' natural political inclinations, that is pretty impressive.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:44:00 pm
Incidentally, there was a YouGov poll the other day asking who you'd prefer to seize power in the event the UK underwent a "significant period of political instability and turbulence".

The Queen, Parliament and the military were all options. 

YouGov is owned by Stephan Shakespeare.  Look him up, for fun.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 08:00:57 pm
So, "National Democracy" is the new word.

It worked out super well for the Poles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democracy).

It just sounds too much like "National Socialism".
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 09:50:15 pm
That too.  But since Poland was the closest thing to Nazi Germany that wasn't Nazi Germany at that time, the extra layer of irony is nice (also because it's Polish, and apparently we hate the Polish now).

Quote
The main goal of the party was the construction of a Catholic Polish State, through combining the principles of Catholicism and Nationalism. The party advocated a hierarchical organisation of society and the transformation of the political system by increasing the role of the Polish National elite within the country. The SN organised numerous rallies and demonstrations against the policies of the Sanacja government.

Quote
Simultaneously the ND emphasized its anti-Semitic stance, intending to exclude Jews from Polish social and economic life and ultimately to push them to emigration out of Poland.[13] Antisemitic actions and incidents – boycotts, demonstrations, even attacks – organized or inspired by National Democrats occurred during the 1930s. The most notorious actions were taken by a splinter group of radical young former NDs who formed the fascist-inspired National Radical Camp (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny)

Quote
The organization proclaimed changes in the government based on the nationalist ideology.[2] It supported class solidarity, nationalization of foreign and Jewish-owned companies and introduction of anti-semitic laws.[2] At the same time it supported defense of private property and a centralized state. The party favored aggressive eliminationist[clarification needed] action against Poland's minorities.[5] The leading members of ONR-ABC included Henryk Rossman, Tadeusz Gluziński, Stanisław Piasecki, Jan Jodzewicz, Wojciech Zaleski, Tadeusz Todtleben and Jan Korolec. The leading members of ONR-Falanga included Bolesław Piasecki, Wojciech Wasiutyński, Wojciech Kwasieborski and Marian Reutt.

The ONR was popular mostly among the students and other groups of urban youth. ONR openly encouraged anti-Jewish pogroms, and became the main force in the organization of attacks against Jews.[7] Because of its involvement in boycott of Jewish-owned stores,[8] as well as numerous attacks on left-wing worker demonstrations,[9] the ONR was outlawed after three months of existence, in July 1934.[2] Several leaders were interned in the Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp, where the organization split into two separate factions: the ONR-Falanga (Ruch Narodowo-Radykalny) led by Bolesław Piasecki, and the ONR-ABC (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny) formed around the ABC journal and led by Henryk Rossman.[2] Both organizations were officially illegal.[2]
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 01, 2016, 08:45:09 am
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/angela-eagle-leadership-website-registered-days-resigned/
 :horrormirth:

In just a week we've seen just over half our electorate stab  a poniard deep into the vitals of our body politic, Jeremy Corbyn 'Caesared' by his own treacherous "supporters", and now Gove and Boris in their own tragic reenactment of Romeo and Juliet, lots of love, lots of love, lots of love; oh look they are both dead. We truly are the country of Shakespeare.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 09:42:46 am
Incidentally, there was a YouGov poll the other day asking who you'd prefer to seize power in the event the UK underwent a "significant period of political instability and turbulence".

The Queen, Parliament and the military were all options. 

YouGov is owned by Stephan Shakespeare.  Look him up, for fun.

Do you have a link to that poll or the result? The idea of Parliament "seizing power" is making me laugh quite a bit. It's only moderated by the fact that a significant chunk of people would prefer a military coup.

The Daily Heil is backing May.

On the military front, I honestly doubt that being able to afford it or not will even factor into the decision. The UK has had no qualms shipping people out with inappropriate or substandard equipment over the years. Doing exactly that again while trying to deal with this EU fuckup sounds like just the kind of thing that the next PM will do.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 10:06:06 am
Appears to have been scrubbed from the internet.

Unlike their previous poll, which found 44% of UKIP supporters said they would back a military coup.

And with the military, it may get to the point we wont even be able to ship people out.  Remember, no working aircraft carriers until 2020...meaning closer to 2025.  And they're planned to use F-35s...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 01, 2016, 10:08:46 am
Is there a reason the Lib Dems/Greens aren't making more noise at the moment? With the two 'main' parties in absolute chaos I would have thought they would be seizing the opportunity to get some awareness out there.

Maybe they are and i'm just not catching the news.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 10:11:26 am
The Lib Dems are crowing about the thousands of members they picked up in the aftermath of the referendum.  However it's on their own social media and email list, so...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 10:31:30 am
Is there a reason the Lib Dems/Greens aren't making more noise at the moment? With the two 'main' parties in absolute chaos I would have thought they would be seizing the opportunity to get some awareness out there.

Maybe they are and i'm just not catching the news.

I've seen and heard little. That said, the Lib-dems are still pretty much FUBAR and will be dead as a political entity for the forseeable future. They had the only chance they were ever likely to get and fucked it up quite badly. The Greens PR has never been great so even if they have anything to say your chances of hearing it are slim unless you're looking for it.

In short, they both preach to their own choirs and those are not particularly large now.

In other news, I'm enjoying the Corbyn shitshow more by the day. Hopefully he sticks around for a while yet. Just his presence is likely to give "people" on both sides strokes.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 01, 2016, 11:03:20 am
Maybe I spoke too soon:

hxxps://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/4qqivq/caroline_lucas_green_party_my_six_point_plan_to/

Quote
1) A General election this year so people can choose the Government they want to represent them in the negotiations to come. The current Government has no mandate for negotiations.

2) A Parliamentary vote on any ‘terms of exit’ BEFORE invoking Article 50. This stops a small cabal at the top of Government having total control over this country’s future place in the world.

3) The protection of free movement within the EU, strong environmental protections, workers rights and the Single Market. We're working with a range of environment NGOs and other experts to identify ways to best protect vital Green legislation

4) A second referendum on the terms of a final deal. Britain decided to leave the EU, but nobody knew what kind of Brexit was on the ballot paper. It’s only right that we’re all given a say.

5) An emergency law which guarantees the rights of non-British nationals already living here in Britain. No one who has come here to make a life for themselves should feel threatened by Brexit.

6) The protection of young people’s future. 75% of young people who voted chose to remain. It’s only right that the Government should now guarantee continued funding for Erasmus, student exchanges and EU funded schemes targeted at young people.

and:

hxxp://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-01/blame-brexit-liars-not-duped-voters-says-lib-dem-s-tim-farron

I think the article from Farron is pretty good, although he claims

Quote
It is now clear there is absolutely no Brexit plan, either from those who have schemed all of their political lives for this moment, or from George Osborne, who claims it is not his responsibility,

 which, while admittedly true, doesn't carry much weight when his plan seemingly amounts to 'try to stay in the Single Market'

Maybe a Lab-Lib-Green coalition could work... I can't see any single  party beating the Tories right now if a GE is called despite the chaos going on over there.


Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 01:09:11 pm
I would think the greens stand a better chance if they just campaigned that they would do everything they could to overturn/block/rerun the referendum. Point 4 should be #1 or 2, really. It's their strongest possible lead. After the Lib-dem fuckup with the conservative coalition, point 6 will be regarded with no small degree of scepticism. It may be better to indicate the total cost that funding this crap through government would cost and note that despite austerity it still exists due to the EU.


It may be worth noting that one of the main pressures in the UK is housing. Council stock has been systematically eroded to the point that there is little left. Rebuilding levels are comically low and councils have little funding or reason to do so. Developers can still opt for S106 that  removes their obligation to provide affordable homes as part of any development by bunging the council a few quid. The Councils are that fucked for cash that they just take it and throw it in the hole. This has been a failing of every government since Thatcher's right to buy crap kicked in.  Housing associations are looking to go the same way as council stock so the situation will deteriorate further. The results are the shitshow you see now with ridiculous rents for shitholes and flats the size of a large shed being with over £1 million in London.

If I was running the greens, that's got to be one of the biggest sticks to beat everyone with. "Your rent is high because these fuckers can't even make councils build 1 house each a year. Of course shit it is going to feel pressured when you do fuck all to release any"

For reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom

Just have a look at the dates the last ones were done. Then consider today's date. We're talking about a 45+ year old problem here that no-one is inclined to fix and yet it's one of the main reasons this shit is going on now. The horrible reality is that sooner or later someone is going to have to build Milton Keynes #2 #3, #4 and more. If you think you've seen anything corrupt yet, just wait until those contracts start floating around. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 03:45:56 pm
Unfortunately, that works out just peachy for the Saudis and Qataris, which is why they invest their oil money here.  I'm actually fairly sure it's part of a long-term strategy of pushing house prices up via demand, exacerbated by overseas landlords who use their properties 2 weeks a year, to show them that Britain is a safe investment, a place where you can make money, and so you should totally invest in even more property and help fuel the slow-burn property bubble.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 06:14:17 pm
I can't disagree, I'm just seeing a situation where it becomes untenable to sustain with only drastic solutions left as the options.

It will also be worth watching offshore fuckery too. Using phone so notes for when I can: Tobin tax, London status/exemptions, not likely to do well in general post exit.

What's the mood like in london? Still ugly up here though everyone now an expert on politics. Have watched man sign name with an X and then talk about chances of Johnson fucking goves run later. Plausible. Possibly amusing but guarantees may.

Labour vote of no confidence in Corbin 170-40 against. Suspect this means there are approx 20 Max actual left wing labour Mps.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 08:53:10 pm
To be honest, I try not to talk politics with people around here.  I mean, they kill people for their push-bikes, god only knows what they'll do about politics.

I haven't seen any incipient stirring of a riot, but this is Islington.  Admittedly, the poorest part of Islington, but racism's never been a big deal around this area.  Even the criminal gangs tend to have outgoing and progressive views re: skin colour, I think anything except blue is pretty acceptable.

Things are probably different in more Polish inhabited areas though.  The head of the London Polish community, the one whose Hammersmith community centre got vandalised, said it would be riots if something wasn't done. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 08:59:46 pm
BTW, the Austrian Presidency is going to have to be run again, due to voting irregularities.

This was a campaign, you may recall, that was dominated by the far-right and immigration issues.  Be interesting to see if Brexit has emboldened Austria's own eurosceptics, or had a chilling effect...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:28:17 pm
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now.

Can't access link in app. FB WEBSITE WON'T ALLOW IT.

 Alt?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:40:12 pm
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 02, 2016, 12:22:55 am
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Freeky on July 02, 2016, 01:11:04 am
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?

The real question is, how is it NOT?


(If joke is bomb, I'm sorry.)
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 02, 2016, 11:36:19 pm
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: PoFP on July 03, 2016, 12:02:52 am
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.

I wanna click the shiny red button because shiny red button gives information and I crave information and I wanna click the shiny red button to receive the information but when I click the shiny red button it jumps away but why shiny red button I wanna click you I want the information and I wanna show my friends why Brexit is good and to do that I need the information so I need to click the shiny red button but it hates me and I wanna click it and it jumps away from me and the shiny red button is full of secrets I want but secrets I can't have because the shiny red button runs away BUT I CLICKED IT I FUCKING CLICKED IT WITH THE HAND AND THE POINTER AND I CLICKED IT AGAIN I KNOW I CLICKED THE SHINY RED BUTTON but it never works but I can't stop because the shiny red button is shiny and red and I like buttons and I wanna click the shiny red button...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2016, 12:25:47 am
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.


 :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2016, 04:08:11 am
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?

I'd like to think of it as something one might develop a fetish for if you failed a Sanity Check in the Call of Cthulhu RPG, but essentially a very "progressive" style of bio-pride as a story concept. "It takes guts to wear that tentacle face" perhaps.

I have images and a partial vignette with a French, thin-moustached inspector character on a train whose name escapes me asking politely to see, opens magazine,

SQUAM! (Wide eyes over top of fashion mag)
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2016, 04:10:33 am
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.


 :lulz:

SO FUCKING ZEN!  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 03, 2016, 10:59:17 am
So, the Guardian has a stupid article about how Brexit may not be legal because of reasons.

It's a stupid article and I highly recommend ignoring it.  That said, the BBC actually has raised the possibility that Brexit would require contravening existing UK law, and thus require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36671629

This raises all kinds of issues and questions, as I'm sure you can all see.  Especially when you keep in mind that 2/3rds of all MPs backed staying in the EU.

Bonus fun: Gove justifies knifing Boris in the back (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36696908) because he's the only Leave candidate qualified to lead the country.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:12:45 am
To be fair, it is about time that someone actually thought through the legal side. The balance of MP's views has always been well known so it could cause all kinds of fun if they just decide to ignore it.

Today's comedy line:

Quote
In his article Ben Wallace MP said: "When I was a government whip and Michael was the chief whip, the office leaked like a sieve.
"Important policy and personnel details made their way to the papers. Michael seems to have an emotional need to gossip, particularly when drink is taken, as it all too often seemed to be."

Liam Fox is apparently in the running. That's surprising considering he's covered in more shit than a small farm.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:23:26 am
Also:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700350

Quote
A law firm is taking action to ensure the formal process for the UK leaving the EU is not started without an act of Parliament.
Mishcon de Reya, lawyers acting for a group of business people and academics, said it would be unlawful for a prime minister to trigger Article 50 without a full debate and vote in Parliament.

Given the speed and nature of UK courts, this could drag out for years. With any luck the matter will be passed to a series of ancient and senile judges who should have the sense to "contemplate the matter" for a while before dying and making it the next guy's problem. I doubt many MP's would have too much of a problem with letting this be a matter for the courts to decide about for a while. A long decision followed by a "you don't have the power to do this, the EU needs to grant it to you" would be great.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:33:18 am
And Farage is apparently going too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36702468

Quote
Nigel Farage says he is standing down as leader of the UK Independence Party.
Mr Farage said he had "done my bit" following the UK's referendum vote to leave the EU.
He said the party was in a "pretty good place" and said he would not change his mind about quitting as he did after the 2015 general election.

Silver linings and all that. If this puppet molester can shut up for a week or two the bigotry might just drop down a notch.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 04, 2016, 10:54:15 am
He drives the UK economy off a cliff, but in a shock twist, dives out before the car crashes into the rocks below. Now all he has to do is retire to Malta or somewhere, and reflect on how he took Britain back for the British people.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 11:11:17 am
Farage's wife is Lithuanian or something, isn't she?  It honestly wouldn't half surprise me if he did that.

On the other hand, Farage quit once before, and Lord Pearson turned UKIP into a counterjihadi horror show as leader, prompting The Nige's triumphant return.  And the last time he tried to resign, the party wouldn't let him.  I try to ignore Douglas Carswell as much as possible, but on a rating between 1 and Mecha-Hitler, just how much of a racist twat is he?  Because I'm thinking it's between him and Pearson as to who gets the crown, if Farage's resignation sticks.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 11:42:43 am
Carswell did note that the UKIP propaganda was a bit racist.

He was also later to remark that water is wet and was unsure if those cows were small or just very far away.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 12:00:08 pm
I can see him being the preferable choice between the two, though his history re: the expenses scandal could definitely work against him.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 12:06:38 pm
Either way, it's still just picking between STD's. You don't really want either of them and neither choice has any benefits.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: babyjesus on July 04, 2016, 06:04:15 pm
So, the Guardian has a stupid article about how Brexit may not be legal because of reasons.

It's a stupid article and I highly recommend ignoring it.  That said, the BBC actually has raised the possibility that Brexit would require contravening existing UK law, and thus require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36671629

This raises all kinds of issues and questions, as I'm sure you can all see.  Especially when you keep in mind that 2/3rds of all MPs backed staying in the EU.

Bonus fun: Gove justifies knifing Boris in the back (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36696908) because he's the only Leave candidate qualified to lead the country.

The Guardian is right, Parliament has full sovereignty and isn't bound to trigger art. 50. The Brelection was just an opinion poll and subsequent actions may sweep it out to sea.

Or not.

I don't really get the resistance. At all.

No matter how great it may be to be so lodged in the ass of the EU in some ways, the EU is already demonstrating itself to be a fascist kitty eater.

And revolution, liberty etc ain't easy, or free. There is gonna be some pain and some adjustment. Dig it!

But you get the chance to start over and be sovereign again. And ya'll are resilient.

WTF is there to be afraid of that even remotely compares to what you are gettin free from? You are doing Greece and Italy and Ireland and Spain huge favors in the short term and most of EUrope in the long term.

History will applaud you if you just follow through.

If you don't follow through then every dreamer in EUrope who imagines a life before fascism can just Greece their ass for a a good long fuck.

The future will be a prick stuffed down a human ass, forever.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 06:47:10 pm
Do you even live in the EU?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 06:53:31 pm
Quote
History will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: babyjesus on July 04, 2016, 07:46:54 pm
Quote
History will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?

I love the smell of fear in the morning.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 07:48:31 pm
Quote
History will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?

I love the smell of fear in the morning.

"I'll take "things Sociopaths say" for $200 Bob."
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 12:16:14 pm
Ignoring the child...

The Chancellor has lowered corporate income tax (already the 2nd lowest in the developed world) to try and encourage investment in the UK.  It's not working though....Standard Life Investments have suspended trading in the UK precisely because people are pulling their money out.  And on the projections of the UK going into recession in the new year, the Bank of England is now loosening its restrictions on lending to banks.  Carney's no fool...he's moving now to try and position for when the crisis does hit.  Food prices are going to go up, and if the pound goes much lower against the dollar we will be looking at increased fuel prices...which ultimately means increased prices on most things.  I also remember the economic projections immediately after Brexit predicting an increase in taxes and decrease in public spending, both to offset the loss of EU funding in certain sectors and to try and offset the current economic conditions.

So everyone is going to get poorer, and things are going to go up in cost.  And then people will lose jobs.

With both Boris and Farage gone, and no-one trusting Gove any more unless he keeps both hands on the table and directly in front of people at all times, it's looking increasingly likely that our next PM will be Theresa May.  She may not be the worst option...I mean, when you consider how many Home Office ministers we went through until she came along, I think that alone speaks to a certain political expertise.  And with Osbourne out of the picture, she's the natural candidate for Cameron loyalists to rally around.  But May did campaign to Remain...and it's not clear she has any more idea of how to proceed on Brexit than anyone else.

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of new Irish passports in Northern Ireland, and Scotland continues to plan for independence.  So well done team.  We're not there yet, but if we keep trying we can totally rip the UK apart.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 12:32:44 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550
Quote
Mr Juncker spoke of Leave camp "retro nationalists". "Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay," he told MEPs in Strasbourg.
He also said he did not understand why those in the Brexit camp in the UK would want to wait before beginning the formal withdrawal process.
"Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat," he said.

Current rumours include that George RR Martin is writing the plan. He promises it's nearly done and they'll have it soon.

 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 12:41:35 pm
Quote
Food prices are going to go up, and if the pound goes much lower against the dollar we will be looking at increased fuel prices...which ultimately means increased prices on most things.

I'm telling you, wait for the first winter fuel bill. People of all classes and colours are going to shit themselves when the choice is "Food, Warm or getting to work, Pick two of three".
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 05, 2016, 01:57:42 pm

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of new Irish passports in Northern Ireland, and Scotland continues to plan for independence.  So well done team.  We're not there yet, but if we keep trying we can totally rip the UK apart.

yeah, the unionists while insisting there will be no referrendum on the north, and that everything is FINE, ITS ALL ABSOLUTELY FINE OK!?
are quietly telling their members to all apply for the Irish passport as it is "sound fiscal policy to have access to work in the European market"

It does make sense, I mean if you were given the choice of being allowed to work in the EU without a Visa, or not based on a piece of paper its an easy decision.

There's a depressing one I saw the other day: The children's hospital had a heart surgery ward in NI, which has been moved to Dublin a few years back... The surgeries are free for European children but would costs tens of thousands for people coming in from abroad. Of all the things for the north that need to be bargained with and set down on paper, that's one that really needs to be kept open to the people of NI.
There's those that will argue that the children could be flown to the UK, that is really not a good idea, especially when they can be safely transported to Dublin as an alternative.

Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:10:40 pm
Quote
Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 05, 2016, 03:15:49 pm
Quote
Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

A generation's dreams.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 03:18:53 pm
Quote
Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

Polish schoolgirl committed suicide after bullying in wake of the results.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:37:17 pm
Ugh. Charming.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 05, 2016, 04:04:37 pm
Quote
Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

All it takes is breakdown or partial breakdown of Normal Services, and the very young and the very old start dying like flies.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 04:21:41 pm
Well, junior doctors are currently pissed at the government and there's no telling how Brexit may impact on medical prices.  So....
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 04:39:39 pm
....Invest in Funerary services?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 05, 2016, 04:41:54 pm
Well, junior doctors are currently pissed at the government and there's no telling how Brexit may impact on medical prices.  So....

There is a hiring shortage (in general, regardless of Brexit), it will result in a smaller pool of available staff, which results in longer hours for junior doctors, or closures (which is already happening because of lack of staff), and that's even with the ideal conditions of no strikes for the Junior doctors.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 05:27:37 pm
Futher to Cain's above post:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36715806

Quote
M&G Investments has followed two other major finance firms and suspended trading in the UK's biggest property fund following the Brexit vote.
M&G said withdrawals from its £4.4bn fund had risen markedly because of "high levels of uncertainty in the UK commercial property market" since the outcome of the referendum.
Earlier, the UK's biggest insurer, Aviva, halted its £1.8bn property fund.
Financial regulators have said they will reassess such property funds.
Three of the biggest providers of the funds - which offer investors returns from commercial property - have now frozen trading after Standard Life suspended its £2.9bn UK property fund on Monday.

Quote
Housing firms Berkeley Group, Barratt Developments and Persimmon all fell more than 6% on Tuesday, while shares commercial property firm Land Securities dropped lost 3%.

Quote
The last time Standard Life stopped investors taking money out of its UK real estate fund was during the financial crisis in late 2008.

I'm struggling to write anything extra that isn't just fucking obvious.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 05:32:55 pm
Some HA HA?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36717447

Quote
Ex-Conservative chancellor Ken Clarke has called the Tory leadership contest a "fiasco" and made disparaging remarks about the candidates.
Footage of the veteran MP preparing for an interview was released by Sky News.
He said Andrea Leadsom had said some "extremely stupid things" and predicted Michael Gove would take the UK to war "with three countries at once".
He was talking to ex-foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind. Neither appeared to realise they were being recorded.

Quote
Mr Clarke, who has himself lost out when standing for Conservative leader three times, said he would probably end up supporting Home Secretary Theresa May.
He praised her but said she was a "bloody difficult woman", telling Sir Malcolm: "But you and I worked for Margaret Thatcher."
Turning to his assessment of Brexit campaigner and energy minister Mrs Leadsom, the Europhile Conservative MP said: "She's not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics, who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market.
"So long as she understands that she is not to deliver on some of the extremely stupid things that she's been saying."

Fucking classic. We can only hope for more commentary of a similar nature in the future.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Emo Howard on July 05, 2016, 08:14:57 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550
Quote
Mr Juncker spoke of Leave camp "retro nationalists". "Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay," he told MEPs in Strasbourg.
He also said he did not understand why those in the Brexit camp in the UK would want to wait before beginning the formal withdrawal process.
"Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat," he said.

Current rumours include that George RR Martin is writing the plan. He promises it's nearly done and they'll have it soon.

 

Come to think of it, It's been a while since England suffered a plague of dragons. I'd say they're probably due.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 06, 2016, 03:20:00 am
Sterling's hit a new overnight low in the Asian markets.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 06, 2016, 03:36:57 am
Sterling's hit a new overnight low in the Asian markets.

I just looked at it over the last 30 days.  It's awful. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: babyjesus on July 06, 2016, 05:52:01 am
relax.

Breathe.

Tptb definitely want to punish brexiteers and anybody in that path for obvious reasons. And they can.

But given half a chance and if of a certain size markets either self correct or it costs a buttload of money or something worse (like rigging LIBOR and gold prices in tandem with serial bankomplices) to eternally or even longtermally kill a currency.

The pound predates modern democracy and has survived threats as varied and sundry as anything in the wholly bible. It will survive the short selling sharks from the EU banks (on life support).

2000 years from now when only fruit flies, cock roaches and blue green algae populate the planet the Brit pound will still be a fully convertible currency with a stable history as a reserve currency within a larger basket of reserve currencies.

word!
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 06, 2016, 08:06:34 am
Hopefully it will recover 5p or so in the next couple of months, or It's going to be a very expensive winter.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 05:32:03 pm
Liam Fox got his dying (political career) wish.  Michael Gove comes third and is out.  Should've stuck with Boris, angled for a Home Minister position, then stabbed him in the back, Michael, not done it in plain sight for the world media to see.  Theresa May versus Andrea Leadsom, her of the somewhat inflated CV.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on July 07, 2016, 07:20:46 pm
OK, I have no frame of reference for these women.  Anyone care to give a brief and fair primer?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:24:43 pm
OK, I have no frame of reference for these women.  Anyone care to give a brief and fair primer?

Theresa May.  Secretary of State for the Home Office under David Cameron since the 2010 elections.  Campaigned to remain in the EU, but has taken a hard line on immigrants in the past.  Has the grudging respect of the Home Office civil service and police...they don't necessarily like her, but when they see the shower of shit that is happening in most other departments, they realise how much worse things could be.  Is the longest serving Home Office minister since RA Butler in 1962, so her political infighting skills should not be understated, especially when compared with the revolving door that was installed during Labour's last period in power.  Very "law and order" candidate, has significantly toughened up and re-organised several aspects of how the police work and given them broader powers to monitor social media.  Likes shoes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11450145/Theresa-Mays-greatest-footwear-hits.html) (also the Telgraph's readers are probably feet fetishists, which is the only reason that particular piece ever got published).

Andrea Leadsom.  Is the junior minister at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, working under Amber Rudd.  Supported the Leave campaign.  Previously worked as Economic Secretary to the Treasury, was apparently a disaster" ... "The worst minister we ever had" ... "She found it difficult to understand issues or take decisions. She was monomaniacal, seeing the EU as the source of every problem. She alienated officials by continually complaining about poor drafting".  Apparently asked tough questions during the Libor rigging scandal, however. Abstained from voting to legalise gay marriage in the UK.  Criticised the head of the Bank of England for suggesting Brexit may lead to a short term economic downturn.  Allegedly inflated her CV.  Pretty much a nobody until the referendum, and very much second-tier even in campaigning for that.  Is backed by Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on July 07, 2016, 08:46:03 pm

Andrea Leadsom... Is backed by Boris Johnson.


Sheeeeeet.  That's all you had to say, mate!

Honestly though, thanks for the recap. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:55:14 pm
Also worth noting about Leadsom:

"She told Tim Ross of The Daily Telegraph: "I am a very committed Christian. I think my values and everything I do is driven by that." She participates in "various Bible studies groups" with other parliamentarians and prays "all the time"."

Edit: its also probably worth mentioning the tax-dodging, too.  She hasn't read up to that bit in the Bible about rendering unto Caesar though.

Edit 2: also worth reading for a laugh https://twitter.com/misszing/status/751080106194501632
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 08, 2016, 01:23:11 am
Oh, and May is refusing to affirm the ongoing residency and employment rights of currently residing EU citizens.  In other words, she is saying deportment is potentially on the table.  This would, in turn, open up the possibility of retaliation from the EU and the deporting of British nationals overseas.

Remember, out of the two, May is considered the moderate and reasonable option.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 08, 2016, 04:35:06 am
Also worth noting about Leadsom:

"She told Tim Ross of The Daily Telegraph: "I am a very committed Christian. I think my values and everything I do is driven by that." She participates in "various Bible studies groups" with other parliamentarians and prays "all the time"."

Edit: its also probably worth mentioning the tax-dodging, too.  She hasn't read up to that bit in the Bible about rendering unto Caesar though.

Edit 2: also worth reading for a laugh https://twitter.com/misszing/status/751080106194501632

Tangentially related -
I was recently watching a clip of the BBC coverage of the return of Apollo 13 and I was quite shocked that the language they used was religiously neutral/agnostic.
Cliff Michelmore: "We're now coming to the moment, the last moments of Apollo 13, as it comes in, as it begins its re-entry. The best thing anyone can do now is just to HOPE."
James Burke: [snip]" there's very little anyone can do except wait and CROSS THEIR FINGERS . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A82Ol8J1g_I

It kind of slapped me in the face that I now live in a world where every mothers son/daughter in the broadcast news business would have prayed those poor benighted astronauts all the way to the moon and back.

I'm starting to feel very old and seriously alienated.

My memory may be screwed but my perception is that it all stems from the bitch Thatcher who stood on the doorstep of 10 Downing Street in 1979 and PRAYED at the nation. I mean, WTF, she PRAYED at us!

And now we seem to be drifting inexorably into 51st statehood where you can't get elected unless you confess that some invisible friend is your lord and saviour. [I wanted to make that lord/lady, but I don't think that would fly - yet]

/threadjack
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 08, 2016, 01:52:47 pm
Could be.  I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from, but I know I don't like it.

There have also been subtle efforts to try and bring the Tory party into some kind of religious mission.  Mostly fringe MPs, like Ms Leadsom get picked up, or else you have poseurs like Cameron because, and lets be honest here, most Tories don't care about much other than power of an earthly, material and secular kind (and I can respect them for that).

In other news, reported hate crimes are up 42% for the second half of June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746763

Quote
More than 3,000 hate crimes and incidents were reported to police in the second half of June this year, an increase of 42% on 2015, National Police Chiefs' Council figures show.

The reports were made between 16-30 June and half of this period falls after the UK voted to leave the European Union on 23 June.

At the peak in offending on 25 June, 289 offences occurred across the UK.

Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said the "sharp rise" was unacceptable.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 12:31:54 pm
Well it's always nice to have anecdotal evidence confirmed. Helps me think I'm not just seeing shit or being more aware of it after the fact.

In other news, Leadsom's quit, because 'tis the season. So it's May.

Ian Hislop was on Question time this week. Very little screen time but the stabs and asides at the other attendees was quite nice. Someone at QT must have owed him a favour to shove him on the same show as Galloway and Falconer. Very impressive "I want to keep my job, regardless" by Falconer with Praise for Blair and Corbyn. The Corbyn line is particularly amusing as he was one of the many who also quit their job recently.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 11, 2016, 01:47:41 pm
lol, wouldn't be surprised if May quit as well now. Eventually it will be a case that a random draw will need to be done, and the victim dragged out and publicly forced to be the Prime minister.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 01:56:57 pm
lol, wouldn't be surprised if May quit as well now. Eventually it will be a case that a random draw will need to be done, and the victim dragged out and publicly forced to be the Prime minister.

Its a nice idea, Faust, but I think the party is going to have to be pried from her cold, dead hands. I think the distant rumble I can hear is the biggest beasts of the right moving the furniture around to suit themselves. [so no change there then - no matter how it looks]


ETA I hope this is viewable stateside but this was the bit of Ian Hislop of Question Time that really shone for me
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/08/ian-hislop-hit-the-nail-on-the-head-on-brexit-5994922/ian-hislop-3/
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 02:39:44 pm
I don't know, it's a big game of "Touched it last" now. May was anti-exit and does know the level of shit an exit would unleash. If she goes for it, everything's fucked. If she doesn't, she's weak politically and then politically fucked because everyones convinced that the result is a must-do mandate.

Quitting because of lack of a proper contest would probably be one of the better moves.

It's even more hilarious because it's hardly like the UK government has given much consideration to public feeling over any issue and yet a non-binding mandate is forcing everyone to make idiotic decisions. Will be fun to see who's the first person to say "Fuck the result, our platform is about staying in"
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 03:34:30 pm
Well I don't suppose that's going to be Theresa May who is busy screeching "Brexit means Brexit" :(
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 04:30:13 pm
I suspect that the longer this goes on the closer we'll get to "Brexit means brexit if we can get X concession (that we have no chance of getting) and only then will we move forward to brexit."

If anyone actually does trigger article 50 then every single bit of subsequent shit is going to be laid at their feet. The political legacy will make anyone envy Blair.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 04:40:06 pm
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 pm
Suspect it is due to boats - votes. gathered at last round, did not show a strong enough lead to be a serious contender so do a deal for a decent job under her mMay. Deal should be obvious earlyish Wednesday when she takes over and an ouncesannounces  who has what job. Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level. If anything particularly noteworthy probably  additional promises of support at future leadership campaign when she isn't actually third tier unknown.

Better.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:25:51 pm
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?

Nothing overt but my money is on the 1922 committee - specifically, whoever it was who dictated her letter of withdrawal


ALSO - do you really find it unexpected? It felt like rain following the sunshine to me - despite the shrill excitement and cum faces of the BBC reporters I've been watching this afternoon.

and Yes I know listening to the Beeb news channel is like reading reply columns, but it is one of my guilty pleasures. If you can't enjoy the news at least you can watch the complex intrigues and manipulations, yanno?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 11, 2016, 05:30:59 pm
Suspect it is due to boats gathered at last round did not show a strong enough lead to be a serious contender so do a deal for a decent job under her may. Deal should be obvious earlyish Wednesday when she takes over and an ounces who has what job. Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level. If anything particularly noteworthy probably  additional promises of support at future leadership campaign when she isn't actually third tier unknown.

Education or Health then. Home Secretary for the most hilarity  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:33:44 pm

Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:39:21 pm

Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?

She'd struggle with "minister of finding own arse with Atlas"

Gove has issued statement of support for May. Shows that you can get it right when there is only one choice at least. Could be amusing if he gets Jilted from the entire cabinet because of his poor decision-making and foresight over the past few weeks.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:42:17 pm

Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?

She'd struggle with "minister of finding own arse with Atlas"

Gove has issued statement of support for May. Shows that you can get it right when there is only one choice at least. Could be amusing if he gets Jilted from the entire cabinet because of his poor decision-making and foresight over the past few weeks.

If poor decision making was relevant to high public office the Palace of Westminster would be empty of everybody but the cleaners and the rats . . .


ETA And within 5 mins of May's statement to camera accepting the poison chalice Justine Greeing MP announces to the Beeb that "Theresa has united the party"
Wow, that was quick wasn't it? And if they say it often enough and the BBC give them enough air time to repeat it ad nauseam the people will believe it, won't they.
£350m a week for the NHS anyone?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:46:36 pm
Problem is he has kept on making Poor Decisions in public which makes him look a bit of a tit. Would you be inclined to trust a guy who supported everyone else before you? Cabinet position still likely to be given their due to prominence in EU campaign so he can fuck something else up.

Please ignore strange typos shouting at phone to configure it and translation highly questionable at moment.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:54:22 pm
Problem is he has kept on making Poor Decisions in public which makes him look a bit of a tit. Would you be inclined to trust a guy who supported everyone else before you? Cabinet position still likely to be given their due to prominence in EU campaign so he can fuck something else up.

Please ignore strange typos shouting at phone to configure it and translation highly questionable at moment.

I particularly liked "and an ounces". Glad it is a gremlin thing and not an incipient stroke.  :wink:

Also Gove isn't the only one with decision making skills between zip and zilch. There's that Pig fucker Cameron who got us into this shitty mess in the first place through his catastrophically incompetent decision making and May has just gushed over his blessed memory thanking him for his leadership.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:57:56 pm
Cameron surely not stupid enough to pursue politics As Anything beyond backbencher at best. Will be inclined to put as much distance from himself and a pile of shit as he can so would expect him to follow footsteps of Blair to greater or lesser extent.

edit because fucking phone.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:59:15 pm
For reference this voice to text software is utter shite.

Open to recommendations because it seems like it should be better than this by now.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 06:29:20 pm
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?

Nothing overt but my money is on the 1922 committee - specifically, whoever it was who dictated her letter of withdrawal


ALSO - do you really find it unexpected? It felt like rain following the sunshine to me - despite the shrill excitement and cum faces of the BBC reporters I've been watching this afternoon.

and Yes I know listening to the Beeb news channel is like reading reply columns, but it is one of my guilty pleasures. If you can't enjoy the news at least you can watch the complex intrigues and manipulations, yanno?

Well, I was asleep until 16:25, so I've not seen any coverage up until I posted that.

However, I did think Leadsom was stupid enough to think she had a chance, and drag the whole thing out.  Looking at some of her supporters within the party, and the defensive way they speak about her, I could see someone of her personality type treating that as The Will Of The People.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 11, 2016, 06:49:40 pm
Well it's always nice to have anecdotal evidence confirmed. Helps me think I'm not just seeing shit or being more aware of it after the fact.

In other news, Leadsom's quit, because 'tis the season. So it's May.

Ian Hislop was on Question time this week. Very little screen time but the stabs and asides at the other attendees was quite nice. Someone at QT must have owed him a favour to shove him on the same show as Galloway and Falconer. Very impressive "I want to keep my job, regardless" by Falconer with Praise for Blair and Corbyn. The Corbyn line is particularly amusing as he was one of the many who also quit their job recently.

This all looks so horribly familiar.  Sort of like going from 25+ GOP candidates to Donald Trump inside of a month.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 07:01:28 pm
It's kind of like that, only with the added fun of them gaining leadership of the country with fuck all mandate and no idea what to do about anything, really.

Considering the opposition is a joke, if you were inclined to do so you could probably push some horrific shit through quickly on the QT. A few people noticed the change in the juniors doctors contract situation in the past few days so there's going to be plenty of planned headline days to bury bad news. 

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 08:29:13 pm
Well, in a sense at least it is May.  She's horrible, but she's predictably and routinely horrible in the way we've come to expect from Cameron and co.

Leadsom would've been an entirely different, potentially Trump-esque breed of horrible (especially given her comments on Scottish people).  We can survive May.  I'm not sure we could survive a sockpuppet run by 20 different crazy backbenchers.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 12, 2016, 10:05:54 am
This is true. That said, there are many different levels that you can call "Survival". I'm not saying that it's all going to turn into a mad-max shithole overnight, but I can see a few quick steps towards dystopia if she gets her shit together quickly enough and there's still no united opposition.

Also, all bets taken on the next person to quit.
Current favourites and given reasons:
The queen (Charlie's got to get a go sometime, right?)
May (no mandate/just for fun)
Smith(To give support to eagle against corbyn)
Eagle(As above, but in reverse)
Corbyn ("ill health....")


I was talking about this shitshow to a few people yesterday. It's actually been pretty fucking hilarious as our political system is currently on the level of somewhere that has a new dictator so frequently people struggle to remember who is apparently in charge. It'd be comical apart from the fact that the longer it goes on the more shitty it has to get to sort it all out. It's a fairly safe bet that who-ever ends up in charge (even if/after an election) will probably need to start some kind of austerity #2 bullshit in order to save up enough cash to cover the costs and immediate upfront expenses of an exit. It will also help set another new normal so when large chunks of funding vanish it's not felt quite as badly.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2016, 04:50:18 pm
You know who still hasn't quit?

Nick Clegg  :lulz:

I don't think May will be PM for long.  I could be wrong here, but I think the Maggie Thatcher comparisons will die off, to be replaced by the Gordon Brown ones (no mandate).

Also, she has said she will be putting Oliver Letwin MP in charge of the Brexit Unit.  Letwin...would not be my first choice.  My father, as a civil servant, has dealt a lot with Letwin, and has an interesting take on him, due to the many hours of interaction with him. As far as he's concerned, Letwin is clearly an extremely smart man, but he mostly uses his impressive intellect to convince himself that whatever he wants to believe is right, and it is very difficult for him to shift gears on an issue once he has made up his mind.  It makes him incredibly exasperating to deal with, as you can throw all the facts in the world at him and while he will concede the facts, he won't budge on the logical conclusion that follows from them unless he's already predisposed to do so.

He also has an impressive history of public gaffes and actually campaigned for Remain.  This could cause some serious tension within the unit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 12, 2016, 07:06:34 pm
Shit, I forgot about Clegg. I assumed he had just vanished into the political wilderness. Or up his own arse. Either way, this is the most he's been discussed in months. 

As for May's duration, I suspect the deals being done with the media will help determine that. The Murdoch media is largely for her, as is the Daily hate so that's a decent level of support to kick any platform off from. How closely she follows the respective proprietors whims will probably influence the next few weeks headlines to a significant degree.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 12, 2016, 09:47:05 pm
You know who still hasn't quit?

Nick Clegg  :lulz:

I don't think May will be PM for long.  I could be wrong here, but I think the Maggie Thatcher comparisons will die off, to be replaced by the Gordon Brown ones (no mandate).

Also, she has said she will be putting Oliver Letwin MP in charge of the Brexit Unit.  Letwin...would not be my first choice.  My father, as a civil servant, has dealt a lot with Letwin, and has an interesting take on him, due to the many hours of interaction with him. As far as he's concerned, Letwin is clearly an extremely smart man, but he mostly uses his impressive intellect to convince himself that whatever he wants to believe is right, and it is very difficult for him to shift gears on an issue once he has made up his mind.  It makes him incredibly exasperating to deal with, as you can throw all the facts in the world at him and while he will concede the facts, he won't budge on the logical conclusion that follows from them unless he's already predisposed to do so.

He also has an impressive history of public gaffes and actually campaigned for Remain.  This could cause some serious tension within the unit.

Oliver Wetwind is another one of those "Eton Messes" so that sounds about par for the course
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2016, 10:19:34 pm
Actually that was wrong about Clegg.  I forgot Tim Farron took over from him.

Which doesn't say much for Farron.  He was a reasonable party President, but as a leader he's pretty lacklustre.  Then again it's hard to do anything with 8 MPs
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 12:31:25 am
Actually that was wrong about Clegg.  I forgot Tim Farron took over from him.

Which doesn't say much for Farron.  He was a reasonable party President, but as a leader he's pretty lacklustre.  Then again it's hard to do anything with 8 MPs

I bet you Jeremy Thorpe and Paddy Pantsdown could find something spectacular and newsworthy to do with 8 MPs  :wink:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 04:00:24 pm
OK, we were all wrong:

Quote
Japanese Emperor Akihito 'wishes to abdicate'
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2016, 04:57:21 pm
What a quitter.

I do wonder at the timing though.  Shinzo Abe is putting Japan back on a path to full militarization...is this just an abdication, or a protest?  It is the first time this has happened since 1817.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 07:31:39 pm
Too early - Osbourne's gone too.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 07:48:38 pm
Boris apparently foreign secretary.

This is going to be an astonishing shitshow.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 08:15:01 pm
 :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:



 :eek:

[there are no words]
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2016, 08:19:08 pm
This means after Letwin, Boris will be de facto in charge of Brexit too.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 08:40:42 pm
Yeah that's going to be his poison chalice. And his length of rope.
Also He got us into this bind lets see how good he is at fixing the mess he made :popcorn:
Also, also I almost felt sorry for George Osbourne for a brief moment earlier but I'm over it now
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:31:51 pm
New cabinet was supposed to be announced yesterday am. Still no complete list. Suspect it's a struggle to find the required numbers of mps willing to commit to actually being an MP for 15+ days out if a month. We know many have 2/3+ outside appointments so this is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Naturally, the book is open on all new promotions.


Cain disqualified and refunded in part in light of insider info. Inquiry results to be published in 3 days.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:32:23 pm
I mean 3 months.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:32:44 pm
Sorry, 12 years.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:33:53 pm
Actually, 19th of July 2038.

Apologies to those defrauded in the interim.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 09:29:52 am
Reactions to the Cabinet, such as it is:

Chancellor Hammond: boring, safe, non-entity.  Will do as he's told.  Would have been called "wet" by Thatcher.

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson:  :horrormirth:

Home Secretary Amber Rudd: Her CV includes a job as an "aristocracy coordinator".  You don't need to now anything more than this.

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon: Hypocrite and moral imbecile, preaches Christian values while attending lavish dinners put on by the arms industry.

Secretary of State for Exiting the EU David Davis: standard Tory libertarian hypocrite.  Sees no conflict in advocating for the death penalty while decrying state overreach on civil liberties.

Secretary of State for International Trade Liam Fox: Has taken money from the Sri Lankan, Bahraini governments.  Adam Werrity.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 09:55:31 am
Fox is nearly as stunning as Boris.

Again, I suggest that these are the people able to promise to attend for 20 15 8 days of every month parliament's in session.

It really is shaping up to be a full on shitshow rather than just a horrible and unpleasant period. Between Davis, Fox and Boris alone you're going to be neck deep in corruption and poor decisions.

Any word what happened with Letwin and the exit post? Not my first choice but better than the current appointment(s).
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 09:59:35 am
Nothing so far.  It may be that Davis will be in charge of Brexit, but Letwin will head the "Brexit unit".

Or it may be that Letwin has been dropped after the Foreign Affairs Committee pointed out he was an idiot last week.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 10:08:53 am
I'd suggest the second is unlikely. Remember, Boris has a job now.

With the rate new posts are being created I'm half expecting Farage to get a job as "Minister of Fags and port".
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 10:11:15 am
But he is actually qualified for that role.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 10:27:02 am
Stopped clocks and all that.

Apparently Gove is right out, for what that's worth.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 14, 2016, 11:50:29 am
The political journos outside no 10 are having way too much fun. As witness one Daily Wail journo who just giggled that this is "Morning Gory", and the BBC boys keep sniggering in disbelief. Or guffawing every time someone has to say that Boris is Foreign Secretary
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 12:30:12 pm
To be fair, I still can't say that without at least a snort.

More appointments: Hunt remains(Why?), Morgan gone(Who?) Gove confirmed gone(Silver lining). Grayling still in(meh.).

Thinking on this further, it seems the last person actually trying to make a positive change to UK government was Guy Fawkes.

Predicting at least minor riots within 3 months. "Camerons legacy" type articles strangely lacking any mention of this.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 12:42:37 pm
Truss in.

Jesus, it's getting silly now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Truss#Criticism

Quote
Critics who have attempted to engage with her, according to George Monbiot in The Guardian,[72] have said that she is "indissolubly wedded to a set of theories about how the world should be, that are impervious to argument, facts or experience. She was among the first ministers to put her own department on the block in the latest spending review, volunteering massive cuts. She seems determined to dismantle the protections that secure our quality of life: the rules and agencies defending the places and wildlife we love."

This is rather kind. Her history in general is rather shitty and poor decision making is a constant feature.

Information released so far is starting to beg the question of "who wil fuck up first?"
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on July 14, 2016, 01:22:55 pm
The political betting markets must be really wild right now.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 02:15:45 pm
Crabb's quit(Work and pensions, get out before the bomb explodes). Seem's he's still a little upset over everyone not wanting to be crab people.

For those who may actually be curious about the current betting market:
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics

Some interesting odds given for a few things in there. Seems relatively on the money too. I've had a quick check on a few other bookies and they're largely in agreement.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 14, 2016, 02:22:52 pm
Next labour party leader after Corbyn - Tony Blair 200-1
:spittake:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 14, 2016, 04:15:35 pm
Truss in.

Jesus, it's getting silly now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Truss#Criticism

Quote
Critics who have attempted to engage with her, according to George Monbiot in The Guardian,[72] have said that she is "indissolubly wedded to a set of theories about how the world should be, that are impervious to argument, facts or experience. She was among the first ministers to put her own department on the block in the latest spending review, volunteering massive cuts. She seems determined to dismantle the protections that secure our quality of life: the rules and agencies defending the places and wildlife we love."

This is rather kind. Her history in general is rather shitty and poor decision making is a constant feature.

Information released so far is starting to beg the question of "who wil fuck up first?"

Well apparently that would be Theresa May  :roll:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:36:05 pm
I hate this fucking phone.

I meant "Fuck up enough to get the sack".

Leadsom gets environment. So, fox hunting's going to be back soon.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:37:22 pm
Climate change role abolished. That's just not something an island needs to concern its-self about.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 04:39:01 pm
Andrea Leadsom is now Environment minister.  One thing I will say in favour of Truss, she mostly left Rory Stewart to do what he wanted, and Stewart's not a complete fool.  From what I can see, he remains in place as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Environment and Rural Affairs, so hopefully that will continue.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:50:44 pm
Boris has stopped being funny now. I've just realised/remembered the relationship of MI6 and the foreign office.


Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 04:56:52 pm
Yup.

Boris has also directly insulted both of the leading candidates in the American presidential election, too
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 05:22:22 pm
It's probably quicker to make a list of people he hasn't insulted.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 05:32:07 pm
Mundell (the only Scottish Tory MP) is sec. For Scotland.

What a shock.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 09:45:27 am
So far today:

Boris went to Nice, gave a speech, was not received warmly. Then a truck kills 80+ people. Not the best of starts. I'm not saying these two things are connected, but for plenty of french people it'll now be quite hard to separate the two.

Leadsom is apparently to tell farmers various subsidies are going.

May's heading to Scotland to give the SNP a helping hand with their next campaign. Possibly the most pointless trip of the week as there's fuck all middle ground to find and the SNP have made that pretty clear over the past few years. Second independence referendum calls ongoing and will likely only get stronger in direct relation to how likely exit looks.





Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 02:26:28 pm
In between the latest terrorist updates, rail minister has quit today.

Strong start for this government all round.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 15, 2016, 04:34:50 pm
David Davis has said Brexit will be triggered by, or before the start of 2017.

Needless to say, I'm not placing any heavy bets on that actually happening.  Especially with the legal challenge about requiring a Parliamentary vote.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 15, 2016, 10:59:17 pm
I'm just waiting for both the Turkish Army and President Erdoğan to announce that they are in talks with Angela Merkel to to expedite Turkish membership of the EU. Well I could do with a good laugh
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 11:02:29 pm
Wait for the 9am shoddy statement from Boris for that.

Memo to self to quotemine leave/remain remarks RE turkey. Some seem to have prior knowledge
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 19, 2016, 07:38:56 pm
Eagle quits labour leader run.
No bets on who she may back.

Hey Cain, care to take stab at possible outcomes here? I'm not even sure where to start
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 25, 2016, 01:58:57 pm
UK apparently trying to do some kind of trade deal with china. Considering how much internal propaganda is kicking around in china regarding "unequal treaties" extending back to the opium wars, I can only assume that this is China's big chance to get nice and even. Calling it now that any such deal will be massively weighted in one sides favour and this side will not be the UK. I'm pretty confident in this as China recently totally fucked the UK steel market and that's not really a talking point any more. Small bet on building sector to take the next hit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 25, 2016, 09:32:55 pm
And that's not even counting the flight of the doves happening with the financials right now.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 25, 2016, 09:38:16 pm
I'm sorry, I thought we were pretending that wasn't happening?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on July 25, 2016, 09:52:11 pm
"Flight of the doves"?  That sounds dramatic.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on July 26, 2016, 02:04:50 am
When a country becomes unfavourable to big industry or the rich, and they withdraw their wealth en masse. For instance a country trying to close the wage gap by increasing taxes on the rich can end up with a net loss when the rich remove their money from the country.

I'm not sure where the name comes from.

In this case most every financial institution that deals with day to day transactions within the EU would suddenly have all kinds of red tape on their transactions, potentially reduced client base,  and added complexity on its own assets. As such all of them are either threatening to relocate, or have already started the process.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 26, 2016, 02:27:54 am
Capital investor and industry flight, basically.  Because being located in the UK will no longer mean guaranteed access to the EU market, banks are looking at shifting to Dublin or Frankfurt, for example.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 27, 2016, 04:04:49 am
I'm not sure where the name comes from.

Indeed. Why doves? If I had to choose an organism, intestinal flora would be more apt. Absolutely disgusting, yet their absence will cause problems.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 10:03:06 am
Quote
In this case most every financial institution that deals with day to day transactions within the EU would suddenly have all kinds of red tape on their transactions, potentially reduced client base,  and added complexity on its own assets. As such all of them are either threatening to relocate, or have already started the process.

I've taken on work within the EU, from the UK. There were certain things that were an utter ballache but nothing that I couldn't actually deal with. The biggest headaches were tax and transport. I wasn't doing transactions daily, but multiple ones weekly once the projects were rolling.

All 3 clients out there now literally cannot work with me now unless I move out there, setup and undertake the work as a french/dutch/german firm as we both just don't know what the situation is likely to be with multiple things. Clients are pretty pissed off as it's a diktat from on high and they'd prefer to use me. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to tell what a fair deal is likely to be for when the work commences and that fucks me out of the entire bidding/tender process.

So fucking thanks the 52% of you that have just cost me I don't even know how the fuck much. Your bullshit reasoning and paying attention to nonsense lies have fucked up a very good thing because you can't deal with hearing the odd fucking accent in an ASDA.

I am not a happy man today.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on July 27, 2016, 11:20:57 am
But . . . the Sovereignty . . . think of the Sovereignty. We've taken back Control. Surely that's worth a few quid?

Well the sovereignty and banana shaped bananas, yanno?




also:- really sorry to hear about the hit you're taking, Junkenstein.  They keep saying 'We have to respect the views of our fellow citizens' but damned if I can see why atm. Cos apparently 52% of them are too stupid to vote, too self-interested to respect [yes I'm looking at you Boris] and a goodly number of them make my flesh crawl and seem to be the sort of racists/fascists we used to be so proud of ourselves for beating back in the day
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 12:52:12 pm
It's a little frustrating as 2 of the projects are essentially "Part B, just do the same again". The clients are acutely aware that they're going to have headaches and bullshit just dealing with all the standard crap I went through with them and we were quite happy last year that the next ones were going to be much easier. That's not the case anymore. One has a fair idea who will probably get the contract award without my involvement. His opinion was something like "Gang of cunts, argue over the price of every screw". I paraphrase, but you get the feeling. 

Quote
They keep saying 'We have to respect the views of our fellow citizens' but damned if I can see why atm.

No. Lies and horseshit. Respect is earned, not just given away because you can spout any old toss and claim it to be sacrosanct because you've got a fucking opinion. This kind of thinking is going to get pretty fucking poisonous over the next few months as the current political establishments push the "will of the people" shite.

I'm seriously considering looking into registering a firm or two offshore, because fuck this. I'm actually quite sick of paying anything into supporting this ongoing shitshow. If you can think of a reason against this, you're a better human than I.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on July 27, 2016, 02:47:51 pm
Man, I bet Pratchett could have written one hell of a Discworld book about all this.

 :sad:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 03:27:34 pm
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 03:41:02 pm
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."


Sounds like a Carrot story.  "A King Divided".
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 27, 2016, 03:49:38 pm
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."

You should post that to the Original Story Ideas thread in the Literate Chaotic board
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 04:31:28 pm
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."


Sounds like a Carrot story.  "A King Divided".

I forgot about carrot,,  would be a good end to his arc.

Also switch quirm to dwarves and that pretty much writes itself.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2016, 05:11:48 am
OK Junkenstein, you get a point

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/26/who-funded-brexit/

Quote
As Payne’s rather uncharitable report suggests, Banks defines himself as an outsider, and reportedly defected from the Conservative party to UKIP after a social slight by the foreign secretary at the time, William Hague. He lives in Bristol with his Russian wife Katya, formerly named Ekaterina Paderina. In 2001 she married Eric Butler, a British seaman twice her own age, but the union ran aground after three months. The Home Office questioned the authenticity of the marriage, and might have deported her were it not for the intervention of her local MP, the Liberal Democrat Mike Hancock. In a curious footnote, MI5 (the Security Service, responsible for counter-espionage) later accused Hancock’s assistant and girlfriend Katya Zatuliveter of being a Russian agent, although she was cleared in a national security court in 2011.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 30, 2016, 09:58:13 pm
 :lulz:

"The Payne report"
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 02:35:06 pm
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 31, 2016, 06:31:33 pm
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Here, the problem has been magnified by Citizens United, which Clinton has promised to overturn. Doing so may require a Constitutional amendment, but she's a hell of a smart one legally speaking, so I suspect she has a strategy in mind.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Pergamos on July 31, 2016, 09:46:57 pm
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Here, the problem has been magnified by Citizens United, which Clinton has promised to overturn. Doing so may require a Constitutional amendment, but she's a hell of a smart one legally speaking, so I suspect she has a strategy in mind.

I think all it will take is a few supreme court appointments.  The challenge will be getting them through congress.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2016, 07:31:28 am
News from the world of Brexit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37114418

Quote
Black and ethnic minority people in Britain still face "entrenched" race inequality in many areas, including education and health, a watchdog warns.

A review by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which also looked at employment, housing, pay, and criminal justice, found an "alarming picture".

Black graduates earn on average 23.1% less than white ones, and more ethnic minorities are unemployed, it found.

The government said it was committed to "delivering real social reform".
'Different world'

David Isaac, the commission's chairman, said the report reveals a "very worrying combination of a post-Brexit rise in hate crime and long-term systemic unfairness and race inequality".

"We must redouble our efforts to tackle race inequality urgently or risk the divisions in our society growing and racial tensions increasing," he warned.

"If you are black or an ethnic minority in modern Britain, it can often still feel like you're living in a different world, never mind being part of a one nation society."

Quote
The commission, which carried out an analysis of existing evidence, said:

    Black people in England are more than three times more likely to be a victim of homicide than those who are white
    Unemployment rates were "significantly higher" for ethnic minorities
    Black workers with degrees earn 23.1% less on average than white employees with the qualifications
    Ethnic minority people were more likely to live in poverty than white people
    Ethnic minorities are still "hugely under-represented" in positions of power - such as judges and police chiefs

And, although not just British:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37098643

Quote
Almost 7,000 "Islamophobic" tweets were sent, in English, every day in July worldwide, data seen by the BBC suggests.

This compared to 2,500 in April, with peaks recorded following the Nice lorry attack and the attempted military coup in Turkey.

Forty-nine words and hashtags were used as indicators of anti-Islamic tweets, by the think tank Demos.

Twitter said it is "continuing to invest heavily" in tools to prevent abuse.

Demos analysed tweets recorded between March and July, and judged there to be 215,247 tweets - sent in English - that were "highly likely" to be anti-Islamic, derogatory or hateful.

The vast majority of tweets that could be located to Europe came from the United Kingdom, with other concentrations in the Netherlands, France and Germany.

The highest number of "Islamophobic" tweets to be sent in one day, 21,190, came on 15 July - the day after a man ploughed a lorry into crowds on the seafront in Nice, killing 85 people. Jihadist group Islamic State (IS) claimed one of its followers carried out the attack.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 19, 2016, 03:33:34 am
Well, that's chilling.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2016, 08:49:59 am
I tell you, this sort of stuff feels like it is reaching a breaking point.  Open Islamophobic sentiment hasn't been this popular in western discourse since the times we were proposing Crusades to deal with the problem.  Throw in whatever happens in November into the mix and...well, I don't have positive feelings about the immediate political future.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 19, 2016, 05:42:37 pm
I tell you, this sort of stuff feels like it is reaching a breaking point.  Open Islamophobic sentiment hasn't been this popular in western discourse since the times we were proposing Crusades to deal with the problem.  Throw in whatever happens in November into the mix and...well, I don't have positive feelings about the immediate political future.

Yeah. It's downright frightening. I can't help wondering how it will affect academia, what with the high percentage of people of Arabic descent.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 27, 2016, 12:13:09 pm
That's probably the most retarded thing I'll read today.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on August 27, 2016, 02:17:50 pm
Just a reminder, this is an American, supposedly supporting state sovereignty, telling British people ITT how they should have voted

 :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 02:41:37 pm
Get over yourselves commie jew faggots. The rank-and-file natives of the West never invited these people in, and we aren't going to be vilified when they fail to live up to your commie jew faggot ideological fantasies. What you are doing is textbook commie jew subversion: push a narrative that somehow we (the people of the West exclusively) are obligated to allow the whole world into our lands, and if we resist, or if they fail to achieve exact equality immediately, then we are the bad guys. GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! We want nations for our people just like any others, and we reject your subversive narrative root and branch. YOUR KIND have brought conflict, crime, rape, race war and social destruction to our lands with your delusional ideology, not ours. MY KIND just want to live in peace among our own kind like all normal people the world over do. The problem is entirely the creation of this COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE that has its fangs in the Western opinion-making apparatus and pushes  this COMMIE FAG JEW bullshit ideology relentlessly in its COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. We will oppose the subversion and reality distortion that your kind spread like a cancer wherever you go by force, because it is the only thing that you pencill-necked faggots understand. I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

 :umad:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Salty on August 27, 2016, 05:52:47 pm
GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! YOUR KIND. MY KIND. COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE COMMIE FAG JEW COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. GO FUCK YOURSELVES!

[EDIT]: clarity.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 05:55:38 pm
Somebody's been working on their "screaming at the sun" game.  :lol:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2016, 06:34:55 pm
Get over yourselves commie jew faggots.

Edgy.  :kingmeh:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Freeky on August 27, 2016, 07:05:21 pm
GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! YOUR KIND. MY KIND. COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE COMMIE FAG JEW COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. GO FUCK YOURSELVES!

[EDIT]: clarity.

 :lulz: It's less parodical than his original post, which is the funny thing.  I know it isn't, it just reads like it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 05, 2016, 10:34:51 pm
Yet another pre-Brexit promise is broken:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420

Quote
Theresa May has rejected a points-based system for controlling EU migration, one of the key promises of Leave campaigners during the referendum.

Speaking in China, the PM denied she had "gone soft" on migration and said people backed Brexit because they wanted "an element of control".

A points-based model would not let the government control arrivals, she said.

Ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage said many people had voted Leave for the policy, backed by Boris Johnson among others.

May was kind enough to reaffirm that she would also be breaking other pre-Brexit promises as well

Quote
During a series of interviews, Mrs May also declined to guarantee the UK would use money saved by leaving the EU to spend another £100m a week on the NHS or cut VAT on energy bills.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 01:58:08 am
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2016, 02:32:59 am
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 10:35:39 pm
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.

I didn't say I'd digest it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 06, 2016, 11:28:52 pm
The fun continues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37291830

Quote
There is no reliable data to identify EU nationals in the UK or the length of their stay in the country, immigration minister Robert Goodwill has said.

He told MPs this lack of detail would not affect Brexit negotiations as he could not foresee a situation in which all EU nationals were told to leave.

Ministers say they cannot guarantee EU nationals living in the UK the right to stay without reciprocal assurances.

But Labour's Chuka Umunna said this stance was now just a "pretence".

Prime Minister Theresa May has said she would expect to guarantee all EU citizens currently living in the UK the right to remain after the UK leaves the EU but this will depend on other EU countries offering similar assurances to British citizens living there.

I'm also fairly sure the EU will demand collective bargaining on this issue, ie; that all EU nationals regardless of individual country of origin must be treated the same.

This is something that the EU does have, and will crop up again and again in negotiations.  For example, all other EU member states must agree to the terms the UK leaves under.  If not, then the UK will have to re-negotiate the exit.  The UK's bargaining power versus the EU is extremely weak due to this, but no-one really likes to talk about it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2016, 12:58:46 am
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.

I didn't say I'd digest it.

I particularly like the "See you on the battlefield", by which he means "the local Starbucks."

Probably optimistic.  The chances of him leaving his mother's basement are right between "Jack" and "shit".
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 16, 2016, 04:55:43 pm
UKIP has picked it's new leader.  Diane James was the former home affairs spokesperson for UKIP, admirer of Putin (of course) and graduate of Thames Valley University, which is disconcerting.  Thames Valley may have improved now, I don't know for sure, but when I was applying for places, it was well known the main requirement of Thames Valley was "has a pulse, can move under own power".  It was Regent University for people too poor to sit around and smoke pot all day.  And it had been that way for decades.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 16, 2016, 09:10:58 pm
Oh gods.

Taking bet on time until first stupid racist statement. No bets over 4 days please, you know it won't take that long.

In fact, good money should be on it having already happened.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 17, 2016, 01:11:22 am
Diane James on Romanians:

Quote
    “On 1 January 2014 the floodgates will open for Bulgarian and Romanian citizens [to come to Britain].

    “We are not just talking about pressure on services from immigration but also, and I have to say it, the crime associated with Romanians.”
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 17, 2016, 03:35:17 am
OK, first new statement then.

Various reports that the announcement had speakers dropped and changed. Must not have had the usual brown envelope to pay the Hamilton in.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2016, 09:11:53 pm
Jeremy Corbyn remains Labour leader, actually gaining vote share on his previous victory.

Look, I'm not exactly thrilled with him as leader myself (it's not so much his policies, but his inaction and apparent inability to lead), but when the dude wins twice, as convincingly as he did and with a media as hostile as he did, it rather suggests continuing Labour's ongoing orgy of fraticide is going to go very badly.

Hopefully the party make accommodation with this and move on, though I wouldn't place any large bets on Labour doing something sensible.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 01:29:49 pm
Further fun

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37465452

Quote
Former PM David Cameron felt "badly let down" by Theresa May during the EU referendum campaign, his former director of communications has said.

Sir Craig Oliver, a former key aide to Mr Cameron, said the then home secretary failed to back the Remain campaign 13 times and was regarded by some as "an enemy agent".

He also said Boris Johnson believed the Leave campaign would be "crushed".

Neither Downing Street nor the foreign secretary has responded to the claims.

The claims are made in a book - Unleashing Demons: The Inside Story Of Brexit - serialised in the Mail on Sunday.

In it, Sir Craig says Mr Cameron briefly considered staying on as prime minister, despite losing the referendum.

However, he says he decided against it, saying he feared remaining in Downing Street would have left him "being prepared for the slaughterhouse".

Quote
Sir Craig says Mrs May only came "off the fence" in favour of Remain after Mr Cameron became "visibly wound up" and gave her a dressing down over the telephone.

"Amid the murder and betrayal of the campaign, one figure stayed very still at the centre of it all - Theresa May. Now she is the last one standing," wrote Sir Craig, who was Mr Cameron's director of communications for five years.

Quote
Sir Craig also claims Mr Johnson, now foreign secretary, was "genuinely in turmoil" about supporting the Leave campaign and had been "flip-flopping within a matter of hours" of declaring his intention.

The former Mayor of London became a prominent leader of the pro-Brexit campaign.

Sir Craig writes that, the day before throwing his weight behind the Leave campaign, Mr Johnson sent a text to Mr Cameron warning him that he would be campaigning for Brexit.

However, he says Mr Johnson later sent a second message suggesting he could back Remain.

Meanwhile, government appears to have woken up to the fact that if they don't trigger Article 50 at some point, we're going to be voting yet again in European elections, which is almost as farcical as the rest of this process.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 01:46:54 pm
That sounds like it will be a shit or get off the pot moment, the European elections are paid for by each constituent country, I imagine the Farage types will balk at the prospect of paying for something that wont matter in a year or two.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 02:04:39 pm
Yeah, but that would mean this country understands how we finance things, or how the EU works.  I don't think we can rely on either being the case.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 02:57:22 pm
So it could just end up sitting in this limbo position until someone starts calling for another referendum or something?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 03:07:25 pm
At this rate, I think no-one, including government, has much of a clue as to what they're doing.  And no-one except the government is even being invited to take part in the initial planning, it seems.  No cross-party committee, no House of Lords input. Certainly no Scottish, Welsh or NI input thus far.  Things that, if I were PM, I would be looking at setting up very quickly.

May's just coasting along, seemingly more concerned with grammar schools than the direction of the country.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 03:41:37 pm
Not including Scotland and NI could easily lead to a break up of the Union, maybe that's what they want, NI is expensive to run, not sure about Scotland.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 03:47:21 pm
The UK would lose out on the North Sea oilfields, at the very least, and have to relocate military bases.  I can understand, to an extent, wanting to wash our hands of NI, but losing Scotland on purpose would be crazy.

Then again, Boris Johnson...

Also no word on if London is going to get any representation.  Sadiq Khan has argued for it, no doubt to bolster his eventual bid for Labour leadership, but also on the basis that so many London residents and businesses will be affected that again, it would be crazy not to.

I mean, I'm assuming something is going on, behind closed doors, but they're pretty closed right now, and there's no telling when they may even invite other stakeholders.  If they do at all.  If they don't...then yeah, this will be a fully blown constitutional crisis.  Probably more than one.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2016, 02:28:49 pm
May has announced Article 50 will be triggered by the end of March 2017.

The European Communities Act 1972 will be repealed, while existing EU laws will be enshrined into a "Great Repeal Bill" to be individually repealed or not later, as Parliament sees fit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 02, 2016, 04:46:33 pm
May has announced Article 50 will be triggered by the end of March 2017.

The European Communities Act 1972 will be repealed, while existing EU laws will be enshrined into a "Great Repeal Bill" to be individually repealed or not later, as Parliament sees fit.

Yeah... I just never thought this was going to happen, but there you go. I looked at the pound vs dollar charts for a bit when you posted elsewhere. You can see the day of the vote clearly on a form of chart that measures a sort of "magnitude" of trade volume overall up or down. There's a ridiculous spike marking the drop. Looks almost like a tectonic shift, but in trillions of units of currency.

Guess this is the new state of things.  :|
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 am
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 03:28:47 pm
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 03, 2016, 03:52:30 pm
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 03, 2016, 06:09:42 pm
Cain for President of England.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 06:35:54 pm
Cain for President of England.

Seconded. Motion to appoint Cain as President of England, and only England, will now hear testimony from the floor before the Oligarchy makes an arbitrary decision.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 03, 2016, 07:21:11 pm
pfff, In for a penny in for a pound: Cain for Lord Protector
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 03, 2016, 08:49:30 pm
Patrician
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:05:53 pm
Patrician

Worth noting that before vetinari there was a certain snapcase who made things so bad that he was the reasonable option.

For the national interest I volunteer to lead the most corrupt and depraved government you've ever seen.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:09:03 pm
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.

The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.

It's a trick sale anyway as 90%+ of UK public buildings are held offshore. The UK has owned nothing for years and this is unlikely to change.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 11:57:22 pm
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.

The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.

It's a trick sale anyway as 90%+ of UK public buildings are held offshore. The UK has owned nothing for years and this is unlikely to change.

If you can get me the rocks, I'll find a way to get you da teef!
We going by weight or piece count?

Somehow I'm entirely unsurprised about the ownership thing. I wonder exactly how much is in Irish accounts... just be an interesting historical curio to me is all.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 04, 2016, 02:34:23 am


The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.



It's too bad Chef Diesel is dead.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2016, 05:01:09 am
I don't want to run the UK.  Running the UK right now is being being elected as the guy to clean up after the party is over.

Fuck that.  This country peed on the rug, and now it's going to get its nose rubbed into it.  Again, and again, and again.  Then maybe it will learn its lesson.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 04, 2016, 05:19:04 am
I don't want to run the UK.  Running the UK right now is being being elected as the guy to clean up after the party is over.

Fuck that.  This country peed on the rug, and now it's going to get its nose rubbed into it.  Again, and again, and again.  Then maybe it will learn its lesson.

All I see here is a noble reluctance to power absolute and an iron understanding of the NECESSARY. Maybe you could just try it for a few days and, you know... get all Duterte or something. Maybe get them to all settle down and stop shouting in Parliament so much with a ready kennel of bio-engineered ex-soviet attack dogs?

But I understand, it's a shit deal nobody should be forced into.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 04, 2016, 01:21:52 pm


The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.



It's too bad Chef Diesel is dead.

His eyes were just too Fucked up for this world.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2016, 02:24:45 pm
Theresa May is declaring that the Tories will seize the centre-ground of politics once again.

Apparently, the centre-ground consists of expelling foreign-born doctors (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/jeremy-hunt-accused-devaluing-contribution-foreign-doctors-to-uk) and making companies disclose how many non-British workers they employ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035).

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage is once again the leader of UKIP.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2016, 02:36:09 pm

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage is once again the leader of UKIP.


:spittake: you're shitting me!
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 05, 2016, 02:51:27 pm
No, it's stupid enough to be UK politics news.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2016, 02:58:10 pm
Quote
Asked about speculation that Welsh UKIP leader Neil Hamilton could be installed as interim leader by the party's national executive committee, Mr Farage said: "Really? Well we'll have to see about that won't we.
"I do not see any prospect of that horror story coming to pass," he said, adding that Mr Hamilton "doesn't do our public image a whole host of good".

Okay, I'm back into politics again, this is comedy gold :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 05, 2016, 04:47:10 pm
"When asked for a comment, Hamilton coughed and put his hand out."
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2016, 11:33:04 am
I'm wondering if there's a human being on earth who could make UKIP's public image look any worse. Suggestions on a postcard. All I got is the exhumed, rotting corpse of Jimmy Saville
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 11:38:41 am
I'm wondering if there's a human being on earth who could make UKIP's public image look any worse. Suggestions on a postcard. All I got is the exhumed, rotting corpse of Jimmy Saville

Amber "name and shame corporations who hire foreigners" Rudd?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2016, 12:16:43 pm
Was bad enough when "New Labour"  made Labour and the Tories exactly the same thing. Now we're blurring the lines between the labtories and the f'kin national front. At which point does the same fucking difference qualify as totalitarian?  :argh!:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 12:39:56 pm
Humanitarian agencies did criticise Russia for having a sham political system "that did not offer or give sufficient air time to differing views."  Sounds familiar...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 06, 2016, 03:33:34 pm
I would argue that Jimmy Savilles rotting corpse would come out with less comments that could cause diplomatic incidents, and would be taken more seriously in debates then Farage.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 06, 2016, 05:15:40 pm
Savile's rotting corpse is probably a good metaphor for half of parliament in one way or another. Or at least the setup for a poor joke.

"What's the difference between UK governments and Savile's rotting corpse?"

"One's foul, filled with corruption and did terrible things to the defenceless for decades, the other is a rotting corpse".

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 06:38:19 pm
Lets not forget, the public get the government they ask for

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/public-backs-plans-make-companies-say-how-many-for/

Quote
By more than two to one the public support government proposals to make businesses publish how many foreign workers they employ

At the Conservative party conference this week, Home Secretary Amber Rudd announced plans to make firms publish what proportion of their workforce is non-British in a bid to encourage them to hire more British nationals. Although derided by many media commentators, new YouGov research finds that the policy is very popular across most of society.

Overall, 59% of people say they either strongly or somewhat support the proposals – more than double the 26% who somewhat or strongly oppose them.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 07, 2016, 02:01:42 am
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

Quote
UKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

Quote
Farage: UKIP Steven Woolfe row "not very grown-up"
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 07, 2016, 05:10:38 am
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

Quote
UKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

Quote
Farage: UKIP Steven Woolfe row "not very grown-up"

This seems kinda familiar.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 11:37:41 am
Quote
"In the UK at the moment you've got a one-party state. When you put it all together, there's something seriously wrong.
"I don't know if there's a role for me... There's a limit to what I want to say about my own position at this moment. All I can say is that this is where politics is at. Do I feel strongly about it? Yes, I do. Am I very motivated by that? Yes.
"Where do I go from here? What exactly do I do? That's an open question."
He added: "There's been a huge reaction against the politics I represent. But I think it's too soon to say the centre has been defeated. Ultimately I don't think it will. I think it will succeed again.

Just in case anyone was confused about how shit things are, Blair's threatening a comeback.

I'm amazed he can even show his face after Chilcot but apparently working for dictators removes any vestiges of shame.

Seriously, if this fucker turns up again then we may just have to concede that Guy Fawkes had the right idea, he was just off with the timing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 07, 2016, 11:45:18 am
Presumably said with a straight face and no hint of irony. Considering he's the man responsible for turning us into a one party state, you have to hand it to him.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 01:00:07 pm
Sad thing is, if there was an election tomorrow, Blair would probably do better than the current government or Labour.  Both in terms of getting votes and actually being in power.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 07, 2016, 04:14:50 pm
Quote
"In the UK at the moment you've got a one-party state. When you put it all together, there's something seriously wrong.
"I don't know if there's a role for me... There's a limit to what I want to say about my own position at this moment. All I can say is that this is where politics is at. Do I feel strongly about it? Yes, I do. Am I very motivated by that? Yes.
"Where do I go from here? What exactly do I do? That's an open question."
He added: "There's been a huge reaction against the politics I represent. But I think it's too soon to say the centre has been defeated. Ultimately I don't think it will. I think it will succeed again.

Just in case anyone was confused about how shit things are, Blair's threatening a comeback.

I'm amazed he can even show his face after Chilcot but apparently working for dictators removes any vestiges of shame.

Seriously, if this fucker turns up again then we may just have to concede that Guy Fawkes had the right idea, he was just off with the timing.

November is coming...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:28:36 pm
Sad thing is, if there was an election tomorrow, Blair would probably do better than the current government or Labour.  Both in terms of getting votes and actually being in power.

That's not sad, it's fucking tragic.

Seriously, if this place turns into Blair #2 - You-didn't-learn-your-lesson-the-first-three-fucking-times-boogaloo then I'm moving to the first country that will have me. I'm not going to stick around for the 4th time as I'm probably going to jail in the first year of it.


In next week's news, Thatcher's rotting corpse rises from the grave to discuss Brexit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 04:31:20 pm
Meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/lse-brexit-non-uk-experts-foreign-academics

Quote
Leading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals.

“It is utterly baffling that the government is turning down expert, independent advice on Brexit simply because someone is from another country,” said Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrats’ EU spokesman.

“This is yet more evidence of the Conservatives’ alarming embrace of petty chauvinism over rational policymaking.”

Sara Hagemann, an assistant professor at the London School of Economics who specialises in EU policymaking processes, EU treaty matters, the role of national parliaments and the consequences of EU enlargements, said she had been told her services would not be required.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 07, 2016, 04:33:43 pm
Is this the governmental version of sticking your fingers in your ears and going:
LALALALA

?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:43:11 pm
As we saw during the campaign, Experts are evil idiots who can't be trusted as they're all full of that sweet EU money which causes compulsive lies.

It's quite horrible to see the echo chamber being constructed though. The lies and nonsense that they'll come out with over the next months by dismissing anyone moderate (or moderately sane) will no doubt make this an even more horrible place to live.


This may be part of the overall immigration strategy. Give the UK a new reputation as racist xenophobes who are as likely to stab you as queue patiently may deter a few people.   

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:52:02 pm
Is this the governmental version of sticking your fingers in your ears and going:
LALALALA

?

It's closer to "Pissing on an electric fence".

The reports have already been made, as has any analysis. Other people (by which we mean foreign untrustworthy people, because they're not from round here, ergo potential members of ISIS) may contradict said reports or disagree with any analysis. Which is unacceptable, obviously.

I highly doubt that May is in this for the long haul, I'm expecting that she puts just enough wheels in motion to keep her own party and UKIP idiots happy and then retires at the next election on a PM's pension. This is a shitshow waiting to start with no-one able to give any idea of an end, or even what the "end" may actually look like.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 06:47:44 pm
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

Quote
UKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

BREAKING NEWS UPDATE:

Quote
The UKIP MEP involved in an altercation with Steven Woolfe has said he "categorically did not" throw a punch at his colleague.
Mike Hookem acknowledged he and his colleague had a "scuffle" in the European Parliament but insisted that he did not hit him.

....There have been varying descriptions of what happened during what UKIP called an "altercation" and Mr Hookem told BBC Radio Humberside only he and Mr Woolfe knew precisely what went on.

...He said Mr Woolfe had objected to remarks which he made. "He then stood up in front of everybody and said 'if it's that, let's take it outside of the room', I think his words were 'mano a mano'."
"When I walked in he approached me to attack me. He came at me, I defended myself. There were no punches thrown, there was no face slapping, there were no digs, there was nothing," he said.
"It's (what) people in Hull would term 'handbags at dawn'. A bit of a scuffle."

..."I didn't push him. He fell back into that room onto an MEP that was stood just inside that room.

...UKIP donor Arron Banks, an influential figure in the party and ally of Nigel Farage - who is interim leader after Ms James' exit - has expressed his continued support for Mr Woolfe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37587814

So the book is formally open on what's actually occured. Current favourites are "Tweaked Nipple","boot to the bollocks" and "Pretended to faint/fit for attention and sympathy". The second has my money because:
A- It's UKIP's style
B-Something caused the guy to drop
C-Neither side want the police involved so it's going to be hilarious. 

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 06:56:15 pm
In economy news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37587085

Quote
The pound was pummelled in the currency markets in Friday Asian trading, with traders blaming concerns over Brexit and a flash crash that hit the market.
The pound fell 6% to $1.1841, the biggest move since the Brexit vote.
Sterling later recovered some of those losses but remained volatile.
Analysts think a news report could have triggered automated trading systems to sell the pound heavily in a short space of time.

...."The big issue for the pound right now is that it has become detached from the economic fundamentals and politics have become king. This is where things will get dangerous for the currency going forward," said Kathleen Brooks, research director at City Index.
"Theresa May's hard-line on Brexit negotiations and her insistence that negotiations will take place in private have only increased uncertainty for the market, with traders left combing news websites for the latest headlines to try and gauge for themselves the state of play between the UK and the EU," she added.

...Analysts at HSBC are forecasting that the pound could fall to $1.10 and could be worth just one euro by the end of next year.

"The argument which is still presented to us - that the UK and EU will resolve their difference and come to an amicable deal - appears a little surreal," said David Bloom, head of foreign exchange research at HSBC.
"It is becoming clear that many European countries will come to the negotiation table looking for political damage limitation rather than economic damage limitation. A lose-lose situation is the inevitable outcome

What, did you expect positive news?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 07:10:49 pm
The guy who hit Woolfe is called HOOKEM.  Does there even need to be an investigation?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 07, 2016, 08:53:37 pm
In economy news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37587085

Quote
The pound was pummelled in the currency markets in Friday Asian trading, with traders blaming concerns over Brexit and a flash crash that hit the market.
The pound fell 6% to $1.1841, the biggest move since the Brexit vote.
Sterling later recovered some of those losses but remained volatile.
Analysts think a news report could have triggered automated trading systems to sell the pound heavily in a short space of time.

...."The big issue for the pound right now is that it has become detached from the economic fundamentals and politics have become king. This is where things will get dangerous for the currency going forward," said Kathleen Brooks, research director at City Index.
"Theresa May's hard-line on Brexit negotiations and her insistence that negotiations will take place in private have only increased uncertainty for the market, with traders left combing news websites for the latest headlines to try and gauge for themselves the state of play between the UK and the EU," she added.

...Analysts at HSBC are forecasting that the pound could fall to $1.10 and could be worth just one euro by the end of next year.

"The argument which is still presented to us - that the UK and EU will resolve their difference and come to an amicable deal - appears a little surreal," said David Bloom, head of foreign exchange research at HSBC.
"It is becoming clear that many European countries will come to the negotiation table looking for political damage limitation rather than economic damage limitation. A lose-lose situation is the inevitable outcome

What, did you expect positive news?

The worse that they behave the more money that all of the existing and new short positions and cats selling currency option contracts make. The actors themselves may not fully understand how it all works, but the checks keep rolling in and their blindly trusted experts assure them they're on the "winning" team. And who could really say otherwise? Buckets of bloody cash speak for themselves.

You are watching a Punch & Judy show while the cr0wn quietly allows the economy to get messily gutted backstage. Good thing economies can't scream and the experts most able to see it would largely just prefer to cash in on the matter.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 09:55:42 pm
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow. 

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 07, 2016, 10:06:17 pm
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow.

Robots AND Pirates for Halloween! :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 11:37:47 pm
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow.

Yup, because that's all they have to go on.  Government's not telling anyone anything, and the EU's not revealing it's hand until Article 50 is triggered either.

Right now everyone's predicting the negotiations will be a lose-lose situation between the two parties, and they're probably right.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2016, 02:46:22 am
Incidentally, both the post-Brexit drop and "pound flash crash" are severe enough to be considered currency crashes, if they persist until next June, as seems likely (loss of over 15% of currency value in a year).

Here's your primer on what happens next: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_crisis

(I actually think, despite being Goldman Sachs, Carney is a fairly adept leader for the Bank of England, cautious but willing to take pre-emptive action when required.  This may not be enough, but it could offset the worst of it).
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 08, 2016, 03:34:15 am
If he's still around at that stage it will be interesting to see what he tries. The way things are at the moment it's fairly possible he may quit/resign/other before the day of article 50. Will also be worth seeing if end of March date holds as that will indicate a lot and cause a shitstorm politically and financially either way.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2016, 03:09:41 am
May's stupid enough to do it.

A vote on the terms of our EU exit is, apparently, not on the cards. Not a referendum, and not even a Parliamentary vote. So an undemocratically elected government is going to push forward an undemocratic terms of exit based on a 4% referendum mandate and votes cast in 2015. 

Given an Act of Parliament may be required to leave the EU, this could very well trigger (another) constitutional crisis.  May is centralising control for ll of Brexit in the Cabinet - this probably means no say for Scotland, NI, Wales or London either.  There's no stomach for "hard Brexit" in Parliament, and indeed it's contentious even within the Tory Party (and runs directly counter to their 2015 manifesto).

Parliament is getting agitated by May's lack of due respect.

And by the way: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/hard-brexit-treasury-66bn-eu-single-market

Quote
Treasury coffers may take a £66bn annual hit if Britain goes for a hard Brexit, cabinet ministers have been warned.

Leaked government papers suggest that leaving the single market and switching to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules would cause GDP to fall by up to 9.5% compared with staying in the EU.

The draft cabinet committee paper seen by the Times is based on forecasts from the controversial study into the predicted impact of quitting the EU published by George Osborne in April during the referendum campaign. Although the then chancellor faced widespread criticism over the report, the Treasury stands by its calculations, according to the Times.

The documents says: “The Treasury estimates that UK GDP would be between 5.4% and 9.5% of GDP lower after 15 years if we left the EU with no successor arrangement, with a central estimate of 7.5%.

“The net impact on public sector receipts – assuming no contributions to the EU and current receipts from the EU are replicated in full – would be a loss of between £38bn and £66bn per year after 15 years, driven by the smaller size of the economy.”
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 11, 2016, 08:54:01 am
The north issue is getting really ugly, no one here wants a border, north or south. There's talk of repealing the convention on human rights, which results in a nullification of the good Friday agreement, that and May's ugly comments about soldiers no longer being harassed (when they were performing vengeance killings on innocent people in the North).

The north not having suffered enough, it now looks like Fianna Fáil are looking to establish a party in the north. This is the corrupt auction politics party that bravely led us into the crash, the illegal property deals, the zero pay for corporations.

Sinn Féin is the already established republican party up there, but widely associated with the IRA and the troubles, however since the Good Friday agreement, the power sharing, an uncomfortable peace has been hard won on both sides, with concessions on each side; SF take seats in government but don't take up the ones they are entitled to in Parliament over the water.
FF are not as classy a bunch, don't expect violence from them, but they will take up their seats in parliament.
If they do that, England will be begging for a breakup of the Union.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 10:11:56 am
Unfortunately, Tories know fuck all about Northern Ireland.  No-one votes for them there, therefore they don't care.  Just like Scotland.  Anywhere outside of the Home Countries is foreign territory, suspicious and awful.  On the plus side, I'm hoping this means NI can come to its own arrangements with RoI, but legally that may not stick.

In other news, remember that £450 million a week that will go into the NHS?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37627308

Quote
Whitehall officials believe the UK may need to make big payments to the EU to secure preferential trading terms after Brexit, BBC Newsnight has learned.

During the EU referendum, Vote Leave claimed leaving the EU could save the UK £350m a week in contributions.

But an unnamed cabinet minister has told Newsnight that the UK may end up "paying quite a lot" of that money to secure access to the single market.

The government said it would not give a "running commentary" on negotiations.

The UK's contributions to the EU became one of the most contentious issues in the EU referendum campaign after Vote Leave pledged to repatriate £350m a week - its estimate of the UK's gross weekly contributions to the EU.

This is reduced by subsidies paid to the UK and by the UK budget rebate.

But a leading light in the Brexit campaign said they now expected the UK could still end up paying as much as £5bn a year into EU funds, in return for access to the single market.

This is roughly half of what the UK would have expected to contribute to the EU - estimated by the Office for Budget Responsibility to average around £9.6bn a year from 2015.

Ed Mililibands's coalition of plucky rebels is still picking away at Brexit negotiations (Miliband is the driving force behind the cross-Parliamentary calls for a vote on the terms of Brexit, he's no fool.  Can't eat a bacon sandwich, but no fool).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928

Quote
Labour has renewed pressure on ministers to set out their Brexit strategy to MPs before formal negotiations begin.

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry said Labour would stage a Commons vote on Wednesday on a motion calling for "proper scrutiny".

Ahead of the debate, it asked Brexit Minister David Davis 170 questions, including on trade and migration.

The Conservatives said there would be "no running commentary" on their plans.

The government has faced calls to set out more detail on what it wants Brexit to look like, with little known so far about its plans for migration and trade with the EU.

That's one question for every day until the end of March, btw.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 12, 2016, 01:18:00 pm
I assume we will have around 0 answers by the end of march, if that date even holds.

How long can this go on before you have to admit you have no real plan? I'm guessing around a year before "health reasons" or "family commitments" cause the key people involved to run like fuck and leave the next set holding the bag.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 02:18:07 pm
I don't know...I know Miliband wasn't always the best leader of the party, but he seems to be building up quite a bit of momentum on the Tory backbenches with this, even among Brexit supporters.  Eventually someone will have to give Parliament an answer.  I can only assume they're going easy on May because the new government thing.

Come the new year, I think we'll see serious pushback.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 12, 2016, 04:12:29 pm
By the new year, they'll be pushing themselves back. It's the same with any project when the deadline is 6+ months out. The first month is a party. So's the second. After that you're either having 4 more and turning in something shitty or rushing to get a decent job done in 2/3rds of the time that you should have. The "no ongoing commentary" line backs up the first. Who would tell people they're just tossing it off on an ongoing basis? And surely there's little doubt that whatever they decide to show, be that in march or before (possibly later. Tories....) is undoubtedly going to be quite shitty for any and all concerned.

It also gives them until that date to let others keep making the case against it. "Do a shitty job" might be the plan to try and get out of the whole mess. If the people wanting it can't preform, how and who else do you get to do it?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 04:40:13 pm
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/10/facts-of-life-and-death.html

Quote
The UK is not self-sufficient in food. The UK imports roughly 40% of the total food consumed, and the proportion is rising. Nor is it obvious that we can produce more food: to get close to self-sufficiency from 1939-45 required a world war, mobilization, and the conversion of all private gardens into kitchen gardens, along with rationing, and the UK population has grown by roughly 25% since then. While modern technology-intensive agricultural techniques can improve productivity, this is capital intensive, and the one thing a Post-hard Brexit Britain with a crashed currency and a financial sector fleeing to the continent is going to be short of is capital. Also, it takes years to roll out that sort of infrastructure upgrade, even if the will is there.

Food bank use is at record levels and hunger is a desperate concern for low-income (including low-earning employed) families. And the currency we buy our food imports with just crashed 10% this week, and 25% over the past four months.

If a Hard Brexit happens, then Sterling will almost certainly dip below Dollar parity for the first time in history. Imported foods will cost 40% more in real terms than they did in 2015. And there will be additional 20% tarrifs levelled on top.

I'm calling Hard Brexit a road to mass starvation and famine-grade deaths on a scale not seen in the UK since the Hungry Forties (that's the 1840s, not the 1940s).
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 12, 2016, 04:48:52 pm
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/10/facts-of-life-and-death.html

Quote
The UK is not self-sufficient in food. The UK imports roughly 40% of the total food consumed, and the proportion is rising. Nor is it obvious that we can produce more food: to get close to self-sufficiency from 1939-45 required a world war, mobilization, and the conversion of all private gardens into kitchen gardens, along with rationing, and the UK population has grown by roughly 25% since then. While modern technology-intensive agricultural techniques can improve productivity, this is capital intensive, and the one thing a Post-hard Brexit Britain with a crashed currency and a financial sector fleeing to the continent is going to be short of is capital. Also, it takes years to roll out that sort of infrastructure upgrade, even if the will is there.

Food bank use is at record levels and hunger is a desperate concern for low-income (including low-earning employed) families. And the currency we buy our food imports with just crashed 10% this week, and 25% over the past four months.

If a Hard Brexit happens, then Sterling will almost certainly dip below Dollar parity for the first time in history. Imported foods will cost 40% more in real terms than they did in 2015. And there will be additional 20% tarrifs levelled on top.

I'm calling Hard Brexit a road to mass starvation and famine-grade deaths on a scale not seen in the UK since the Hungry Forties (that's the 1840s, not the 1940s).

 :kingmeh: Watch them proceed anyway. There's money to be made in such "ultimate austerity". What's a few deaths by starvation compared to a vast private profit on the economic woe of millions?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2016, 02:27:35 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

Quote
A consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.

She told the party's Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week.

It marks the first step to holding a second vote.

The first referendum, which took place on 18 September, 2014, resulted in 55% of voters saying "no" to Scottish independence.

Quote
Ms Sturgeon told delegates that Scotland had the right to seek something better if there were prospects of an unstable future as part of the UK.

She said: "I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU - if that is necessary to protect our country's interests.

"So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week."

On 24 June, the day after the UK voted to leave the EU, Ms Sturgeon said a second independence referendum was "highly likely".

Those who voted in Scotland backed remaining in Europe by 62% to 38% while the UK as a whole backed leave, by a margin of 52% to 48%.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 03:07:18 pm
I was very much in favour of Scotland staying part of the Union but if I was Scots then I would be now be looking to get the hell out asap. The Scots were lied to, they were told that staying in the Union was the best and possibly only way for Scotland to stay in the EU. The Union has rapidly shown itself to be toxic to Scotland's European aspirations and I don't see why we should all suffer they should try and stay in Europe if it is possible. I just wish there was as simple a solution for Ireland, whose unique position was obviously not taken seriously by the flag waving, racist,  mouth breathers who "wanted their country back". As for Wales, well what can you say? I look around me filled with horror and disgust that we voted so stupidly against our own best interests. I live in rural West Wales where the economy is currently strongly underpinned by European structural funding http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/
I try not to go out much because it is corrosive to the soul to look at your fellow citizens with murderous disgust knowing that over half of the people you meet are too stupid to vote and are wasting your precious oxygen.
[/i mini-rant!]
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 13, 2016, 05:23:05 pm
I was very much in favour of Scotland staying part of the Union but if I was Scots then I would be now be looking to get the hell out asap.

I can't argue with that.  I'd be looking for the door myself.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2016, 06:08:44 pm
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 06:18:13 pm
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 14, 2016, 12:36:02 am
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Apart from the cultural aspect it gives him access to work in any EU country and stay in them indefinitely. Not trying to be nationalistic about Ireland, but if the option is available I would strongly recommend it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 14, 2016, 12:49:34 am
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Apart from the cultural aspect it gives him access to work in any EU country and stay in them indefinitely. Not trying to be nationalistic about Ireland, but if the option is available I would strongly recommend it.

Plus it would mean I could stop having to be defined as English; something I find increasingly distasteful as I get older
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2016, 01:03:38 am
I'd say go for it.  If I had an EU citizenship option, I'd take it in a heartbeat.  Maybe I'll have to just suck it up and find a nice French/German/Dutch/Swedish/Spanish/Portuguese etc girl to marry...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 14, 2016, 09:56:59 am
(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

Quote
A consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.

She told the party's Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week.

It marks the first step to holding a second vote.

The first referendum, which took place on 18 September, 2014, resulted in 55% of voters saying "no" to Scottish independence.

Quote
Ms Sturgeon told delegates that Scotland had the right to seek something better if there were prospects of an unstable future as part of the UK.

She said: "I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU - if that is necessary to protect our country's interests.

"So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week."

On 24 June, the day after the UK voted to leave the EU, Ms Sturgeon said a second independence referendum was "highly likely".

Those who voted in Scotland backed remaining in Europe by 62% to 38% while the UK as a whole backed leave, by a margin of 52% to 48%.

Won't happen. There's no limit to the retardedness of my countrymen. The english could probably pull the same bullshit they did last time - more powers and a secure place in europe and we'd still vote to stay. Right now I'm prepared to get behind anybody advocating genocide of the scots.  :argh!:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 18, 2016, 12:48:19 pm
Bless UKIP. They're not as big as other parties (1 MP, kinda) or as sane (look at them) but they do make an exceptional effort at getting their own share of headlines. The current is the guy who was "struck by a blow to the head" (he was headbutted it seems) has quit and announced the party to be in a death spiral of their own devising.

Various people being accused of trying to mitigate/prevent brexit and occasional coverage of the court case disputing may's ability to even do it without parliamentary consent. The overall result is that a complicated thing is getting even more so and any chance for a positive result for anyone looks increasingly unlikely.

As for alternative citizenship, grab the chance if it's around. Having the option can only be beneficial.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 21, 2016, 06:17:09 pm
The current state of affairs in the UK: Gary Lineker is coming under fire for saying some of the treatment of child refugees (whom one MP demanded be age verified by dental checks) was "hideously racist". 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: LMNO on October 21, 2016, 06:44:52 pm
To be clear: he's coming under fire, and not the hideously racist treatment?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 21, 2016, 08:51:57 pm
Yes. He isn't racist enough for the sun. Typical Murdoch hatchet job, "sources say" the usual crap.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 21, 2016, 09:07:11 pm
To be clear: he's coming under fire, and not the hideously racist treatment?

We're really got to stop being surprised by this sort of shit.  It isn't new and it isn't isolated.

This is not, you will notice, the same as saying "put up with it". 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 03:39:37 am
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/80062/ex-coronation-street-actress-tracy-brabin-heckled

Quote
Far-right supporters heckled former soap star Tracy Brabin as she won the Westminster seat vacated by the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox.

Quote
As a mark of respect to Ms Cox - who was killed outside a library in the constituency as she prepared to carry out an advice surgery - no mainstream parties stood candidates in the by-election.

Ms Brabin was repeatedly shouted down by supporters of her opponents after the result was announced in the early hours of the morning.

She received 17,506, well ahead of Therese Hirst of the English Democrats, who polled just 969 votes. David Furness of the BNP came third with 548, while independent candidate Garry Kitchin was fourth with 517.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 03:50:02 am
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk

Quote
Britain’s biggest banks are preparing to relocate out of the UK in the first few months of 2017 amid growing fears over the impending Brexit negotiations, while smaller banks are making plans to get out before Christmas.

The dramatic claim is made in the Observer by the chief executive of the British Bankers’ Association, Anthony Browne, who warns “the public and political debate at the moment is taking us in the wrong direction”.

A source close to Brexit secretary David Davis said he and the chancellor Philip Hammond had last week sought to offer reassurance that they were determined to secure the status of the City of London.

However, the government’s stated intention to take control of the freedom of movement into the UK is widely recognised among officials to be a hammer blow to any chance of retaining the present terms of trade for banks, particularly given the bellicose rhetoric of major politicians on the continent.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/oct/21/polish-woman-booed-on-question-time-after-describing-discrimination-video

Quote
A Polish woman is booed by audience members on BBC1’s Question Time when she says she feels no longer welcomed by 52% of British voters who backed Brexit. Speaking on Thursday’s programme, filmed in Hartlepool, the woman says she’s lived in the England for 23 years and was never discriminated against before the Brexit vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/21/no-10-rejects-alain-juppes-threats-to-push-uk-border-from-calais-to-kent

Quote
Downing Street has rejected the suggestion from the French presidential hopeful Alain Juppé that he would tear up a treaty with the UK to push back the border for migrants from Calais to Kent.

A source made clear that the prime minister, Theresa May, who has spent two days meeting world leaders at the European council meeting in Brussels, would expect any French leader to maintain the agreement.

Juppé, the current favourite to win the presidency, said he wanted a complete renegotiation of Le Touquet treaty, the deal that keeps border checks and thousands of refugees and migrants on the French side of the Channel.

“We can’t tolerate what is going on in Calais, the image is disastrous for our country and there are also extremely serious economic and security consequences for the people of Calais,” he said in Paris.

“So the first thing is to denounce the Le Touquet accords. We cannot accept making the selection on French territory of people that Britain does or doesn’t want. It’s up to Britain to do that job.”
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 23, 2016, 05:27:22 pm
 :eek:

I've heard of a run on the banks, but NEVER heard of prime banks ditching nations before, much less the fucking UK. That third currency drop might just be on the way, and worse than the first two, as these banks ditch Pounds for euros and the Swiss franc with no intention of coming back.

Ready for the UK to be the new "rogue state" on the block? That sounds like what's happening here. Never would have thought I'd see the day.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 05:39:07 pm
This was obvious and forseeable.  The UK was a great place to have a bank due to the City of London secrecy laws, EU common market access and historical Commonwealth links.  Not to mention fortuitous positioning between the American east coast and the Mid East (time zones for business) and historical banking links in China and the Middle East.

Not to mention these banks like to employ the best and brightest, no matter where the fuck they are from. 

The EU vote will have convinced them off the necessity to move, but the post-Brexit racism is likely confirming that as a good decision.  This is the same reason you don't see tech companies setting up in Idaho or Montana, other than the lack of infrastructure.  No-one wants to put their employees in a place where they're going to be shat upon simply for being foreign/different colour skin/not hetrosexual.  Market uncertainty plus intolerance is a deadly cocktail.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 23, 2016, 06:18:04 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk

Quote
Britain’s biggest banks are preparing to relocate out of the UK in the first few months of 2017 amid growing fears over the impending Brexit negotiations, while smaller banks are making plans to get out before Christmas.

The dramatic claim is made in the Observer by the chief executive of the British Bankers’ Association, Anthony Browne, who warns “the public and political debate at the moment is taking us in the wrong direction”.

A source close to Brexit secretary David Davis said he and the chancellor Philip Hammond had last week sought to offer reassurance that they were determined to secure the status of the City of London.

However, the government’s stated intention to take control of the freedom of movement into the UK is widely recognised among officials to be a hammer blow to any chance of retaining the present terms of trade for banks, particularly given the bellicose rhetoric of major politicians on the continent.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/oct/21/polish-woman-booed-on-question-time-after-describing-discrimination-video

Quote
A Polish woman is booed by audience members on BBC1’s Question Time when she says she feels no longer welcomed by 52% of British voters who backed Brexit. Speaking on Thursday’s programme, filmed in Hartlepool, the woman says she’s lived in the England for 23 years and was never discriminated against before the Brexit vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/21/no-10-rejects-alain-juppes-threats-to-push-uk-border-from-calais-to-kent

Quote
Downing Street has rejected the suggestion from the French presidential hopeful Alain Juppé that he would tear up a treaty with the UK to push back the border for migrants from Calais to Kent.

A source made clear that the prime minister, Theresa May, who has spent two days meeting world leaders at the European council meeting in Brussels, would expect any French leader to maintain the agreement.

Juppé, the current favourite to win the presidency, said he wanted a complete renegotiation of Le Touquet treaty, the deal that keeps border checks and thousands of refugees and migrants on the French side of the Channel.

“We can’t tolerate what is going on in Calais, the image is disastrous for our country and there are also extremely serious economic and security consequences for the people of Calais,” he said in Paris.

“So the first thing is to denounce the Le Touquet accords. We cannot accept making the selection on French territory of people that Britain does or doesn’t want. It’s up to Britain to do that job.”

 :lulz: This is amazing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 24, 2016, 10:31:33 am
 :drama1:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 24, 2016, 02:00:58 pm
Just moved the last of my savings from the UK back to Ireland. I was hoping that things would stabilise and Christmas shopping might push the pound up again, but I can't take the risk of any more bad news.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2016, 02:38:05 pm
I think Christmas shopping will be down quite a bit this year.  Between the weakening pound and continuing uncertainty, people won't be able to get previously good deals, and are saving for when shit goes down in March.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 24, 2016, 03:43:10 pm
I think Christmas shopping will be down quite a bit this year.  Between the weakening pound and continuing uncertainty, people won't be able to get previously good deals, and are saving for when shit goes down in March.

Yeah, selfishly, exploitatively loads of people I know are travelling up the north or flying into London and buying up the cheap gifts for Christmas, but the retailers are saying a price correction on all retail goods is coming in the next few weeks.
I thought we would get past Christmas before that happens, because I thought a lot of people would be very pissed off at a 10-15% price hike on everything right before Christmas, but the retailers are saying they have to, to be able to continue importing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2016, 11:36:40 am
Yeah, the whole Tesco-Unilever thing is an example of just how quickly this can happen.  Those stores probably don't want to raise their prices, but they can't absorb that big a hit in this financial quarter because they no doubt didn't budget for the loss of sterling purchasing power last financial year.

Yet another thing to thank the Brexiteers for.  Everyone forgot we're an island and so have to import goods.  We're not going to be eating fancy financial products for Christmas, nor burning apps to stay warm.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 25, 2016, 01:53:48 pm
It messes with me that there's a part of me that is shrieking about the potential profit in seeing the pattern in all this, even as I consciously recoil from its source.

There are fully supported currency markets that trade in tenths of a "pip", or about 1/1000 of 1% of a currency's value, and allow up to 200 FOLD leveraging. This allows for some truly ridiculous ROI if you can call the market, and currecies often have distinct seasons related to holidays, commodity yields, and taxation law. There's definitely a business as usual way to make money, even a legit fortune, trading money for someone willing to take serious but measured risks. I would not mind being such one day, as a means to fund public and private non-profit efforts, when I've grown more and gotten a "real" education.

But there's a part of me that just smells blood in the air and is tired of being hungry. I ignore it because I want to be a good person, but I know that the many like me that can see this happening don't really give a shit. The state of play changed in an exploitable way. Why deny the hard math?

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.

I don't know where I'm going with this rant. Guess I just feel conflicted and I'm tired.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 26, 2016, 01:26:59 pm

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.


"because it's wrong" isn't really an issue when shit is this fucked. Right and wrong are a pleasant fiction only if you can afford them. If I gotta turn cannibal, I'll eat the dumb people first. Not because they deserve it but because the rich are too well armed.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 26, 2016, 08:13:38 pm

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.


"because it's wrong" isn't really an issue when shit is this fucked. Right and wrong are a pleasant fiction only if you can afford them. If I gotta turn cannibal, I'll eat the dumb people first. Not because they deserve it but because the rich are too well armed.

That's not far from my personal justification. See the resources are going to move no matter what I do at this point, not that I'm in a position to capitalize right now. I'm kinda glad. Not a lot.

See my mentality would to eat the rich first BECAUSE they're "armed", and so gain their power, worst case scenario for failure being better than or equal to not trying.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on October 27, 2016, 06:59:25 pm
I feel sorry for that you all are getting screwed by these currency fluctuations, but at the same ti e I'm really really glad that they're happening to the people who voted for brexit. They've sown the wind and now they're going to reap the whirlwind.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on October 27, 2016, 08:40:08 pm
I feel sorry for that you all are getting screwed by these currency fluctuations, but at the same ti e I'm really really glad that they're happening to the people who voted for brexit. They've sown the wind and now they're going to reap the whirlwind.
Yeah if anything I was one of the filthy migrants who came over to avail of the sweet British pound, fortunately I got most out before I moved back to Ireland. It's weird seeing it in our business as well, cost of building our equipment went up because most of our electronics are from a German supplier.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 27, 2016, 10:25:49 pm

Quote
Nissan has confirmed it will build both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant thanks to government "support and assurances".
Colin Lawther, Nissan's senior vice president for manufacturing in Europe, told The World At One's Martha Kearney the government had not given the company a special deal.

Extremely relevant
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNrLI3OBwg
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 10:37:11 pm
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

ETA- Memo to self to watch links first.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 27, 2016, 10:57:35 pm
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

I just love that a bunch of global businessmen know what our industrial strategy is going to be when we leave the EU even though the Tories won't deign to tell the rest of Parliament wtf is going on. Shenanigans all round is my best guess. Also - if Nissan aren't getting a special deal then all the rest of the  automotive sector is going to get the same nod, nod, wink, wink sweetener. And bang goes the £350M per week that was never going to go to the NHS anyway.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 11:13:07 pm
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

I just love that a bunch of global businessmen know what our industrial strategy is going to be when we leave the EU even though the Tories won't deign to tell the rest of Parliament wtf is going on. Shenanigans all round is my best guess. Also - if Nissan aren't getting a special deal then all the rest of the  automotive sector is going to get the same nod, nod, wink, wink sweetener. And bang goes the £350M per week that was never going to go to the NHS anyway.

It would be funny if only it wasn't going to end up going to shit in more than a few ways. You can't even trust any backroom deals because who-ever you fucking make them with has a moderate chance of quitting in the immediate future. When you can't trust a good bribe, what can you do apart from take your money elsewhere?

There was a nice bit in private eye about may's dealings and financials:
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1429/news

Between that and the only journalist convicted in Elveden (A sun journalist, of course) having his conviction quashed, it's feeling more and more like an attempt to resurrect the early 80's in some strange grotesque way. Just watch for the next incarnation of the yuppie coming, I can feel it in my fucking bones.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on October 28, 2016, 01:26:09 am
Break out the red braces lads; we're going in !
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 28, 2016, 02:13:48 am
Break out the red braces lads; we're going in !

I would just like to say that the way folks do words across the pond is truly beyond my ken. And I ken my words pretty darn good if I wanna.

I don't know what that turn of phrase means, but it sounds horrible and I like it!

Can I make newsfeed recommendations yet? Cuz this is something folks should see coming in the door IMO.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 28, 2016, 12:51:25 pm
"Braces" I think in americanese is "suspenders" like elasticated straps that go over your shoulders and hold up your trousers pants? Back in the 80's bright red braces were the uniform of the affluent wanker ;)
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 01, 2016, 07:28:44 am
"Braces" I think in americanese is "suspenders" like elasticated straps that go over your shoulders and hold up your trousers pants? Back in the 80's bright red braces were the uniform of the affluent wanker ;)
:lol:
This is very far from what I even speculated, and weirder on a fundamental level than my US sensibilities can really process. And it's pants for most people I know here. Trousers is sure to be understood, but taken to mean a particularly fancy sort of pants. In some places it might be used to refer to under shorts, but it's probably due to looking for a more tactful word than underwear for one's unmentionables. We're talking like back country conservative folks who need synonyms and euphemisms for things you'd probably never believe would be taboo enough to qualify.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 03, 2016, 02:00:06 pm
For more cultural context google the episodes of "only fools and horses" where del boy demonstrates yuppies in detail.

In other news, Court dictates that mps get a say in brexit deal. So add a heap of shit and around 3 years to the shitshow. Responses to decision laughably predictable.

In ukip news, their donor hates their MP and is now declaring so publicly. Note that I did not use any plural terms there. Somewhat understandable as the most detailed quote I've seen from Carswell (the MP) was an emoticon.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on November 03, 2016, 02:12:31 pm
So what happens now, appeal at the supreme court, followed by (ironically) an appeal at the European court?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2016, 02:27:46 pm
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 03, 2016, 03:41:18 pm
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.

The farage crowd is having fits everywhere and the irony is quite delicious.

There's also interesting implications as a result of the court decision. Expect some odd statements from the law and order mob shortly.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on November 03, 2016, 05:08:37 pm
Oh dear, Sinn Fein, who have always historically abstained from taking their seats in parliament (because they would have to swear allegiance to the queen), have said they will be attending for that vote, to vote against the brexit.
The outrage will be delicious if former IRA like associates show up for the vote. They are right to do so, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK  and SF have a duty of care to their constituents and should have its vote in parliament.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Goddess Eris on November 04, 2016, 11:09:31 pm
Innit jokes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2016, 03:38:29 pm
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.

The farage crowd is having fits everywhere and the irony is quite delicious.

There's also interesting implications as a result of the court decision. Expect some odd statements from the law and order mob shortly.

The Bar Council is trying to pressure Lord Chancellor Liz Truss into condemning the press attacks on the judiciary, and Tory MPs (like the eminently sensible Dominic Grieve) have called upon May to also condemn the hysterical press reaction.

No reply from the government so far.  That could be because it's a Saturday, but I suspect it's got more to do with the government secretly being quite pleased at having the press fight their corner.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2016, 05:01:35 pm
Cabinet approved press hysteria confirmed. 

Quote
The Lord Chancellor has backed the independence of the UK's judiciary but stopped short of condemning attacks on senior judges over the Brexit ruling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37883576
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 05, 2016, 10:19:49 pm
Cabinet approved press hysteria confirmed. 

Quote
The Lord Chancellor has backed the independence of the UK's judiciary but stopped short of condemning attacks on senior judges over the Brexit ruling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37883576

It's going to get funnier. I'm waiting for a clever fucker to work out a way for this to end up in an eu court in some fashion. A human rights breach or something similar would be perfect.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 01:05:15 am
If the Supreme Court also rules against the government (and they will - to call this an open and shut legal case would miss out on the perfect opportunity to call it a slam dunk), the European Court is the only place they could lodge another appeal in.

And I will laugh.  Maybe not as hard as say, Juncker, but probably close.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2016, 11:25:55 am
The only way that garbled mess could end up being worse in its execution is if it DID go to the vote, pass in parliament, but the Queen refused to sign it into law. In which case again, they would have to apply to the European court and hope they find her refusal a violation of their human rights and whatever about parliament not being sovereign, in this case it would be sovereign != sovereign.

Now correct me if I am wrong, there was talk of repealing the European convention on human rights; if this occurs BEFORE the appeal, am I correct in understanding that they cannot appeal to the European courts?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 11:41:00 am
I believe, as a constitutional matter pertaining to EU law, this would be handled by the European Court of Justice, and so the ECHR wouldn't apply (though I believe the idea now is to repeal the ECHR via the Grand Repeal Bill).

However, if the EU Supreme Court finds in the UK's favour (lol), it could then be challenged in the ECHR anyway.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2016, 11:54:21 am
So either way, that adds what, 3-5 years to this whole mess?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 03:02:58 pm
Assuming they want to be stupid about it.  I'd be somewhat surprised if they pursued it after the Supreme Court ruling - it would be quicker and less painful to suck it up and negotiate with Parliament.

Of course, if the government had brought Parliament in in the first place, set up a cross-Parliamentary committee with access to the Brexit team, brought in the Scottish, Welsh and NI assemblies/parliament, then this wouldn't be an issue.  But no, May wanted to act like a tin-pot dictator.  Law and order politicians...always a certain level of contempt for the law as it actually is, there.

At least we can console ourselves with the thought of how much more of a fuckup this would be if Leadsom or Johnson was PM.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on November 06, 2016, 05:18:21 pm

At least we can console ourselves with the thought of how much more of a fuckup this would be if Leadsom or Johnson was PM.

I would be surprised if either of that unfunny comedy duo would have survived in office for 3 months.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 08:44:01 pm
True, but then Gove might still be in the running.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Goddess Eris on November 06, 2016, 08:52:41 pm
I left my shitbag ex-husband in London just before they voted to leave the EU, and fuck it if I'm worried for the friends of mine still over there... I'm just cackling like mad that all my exes live in Brexit

and are fuked lol
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 11:33:06 pm
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on November 11, 2016, 08:58:53 am
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Depends entirely upon what happens with Scottland, NI etc. anyone of them exits the union and that will be open the floodgates. Will end up as the Union of England and Wales.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 09:13:21 am
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Depends entirely upon what happens with Scottland, NI etc. anyone of them exits the union and that will be open the floodgates. Will end up as the Union of England and Wales.

We could be called Wingland to keep morale up.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2016, 04:49:45 am
Falklands will never go back to Argentina, or independent. 

Quote
On a turnout of 91.94%, an overwhelming 99.8% voted to remain a British territory, with only three votes against

Argentina's a complete basket-case economically, and the status of former British subjects on the island would be extremely uncertain, to put it mildly.  And the Falklands aren't going to go independent and pay for their military defense themselves.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 14, 2016, 12:03:50 am
That's far too reasonable. Current fear mongering should mention Argentina sneak attacking while Brazilians are cutting off heads. Or something.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 22, 2016, 01:56:33 pm
AH HA HA HA

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/22/brexit-deal-could-end-eus-top-court-warns-europes-senior-judge/

Quote
EU's top court could rule over the content of any Brexit deal, Europe's most senior judge has warned.

Koen Lenaerts indicated that the European Court of Justice, long considered by Eurosceptics as a bastion of European interference, could preside over Britain's exit terms.

OH HO HO HO

Quote
Steve Peers, a professor of EU law at Essex University, told the FT: "It's probably only a matter of time before some aspect of the Brexit issue gets decided by the EU courts and there's no small irony in that prospect."

It came as Brexit Secretary David Davis was warned that negotiations for leaving the European Union will be ""tough" and "intense" as MEPs stressed that the UK would not be able to remain in the single market without accepting free movement of people.

Quote
Speaking at a Westminster media briefing, the Number 10 spokesman declined to respond to repeated questions over whether the relationship the Government is seeking would require single market membership.

HE HE HE

The clowns are running the circus and have forgot that the ringmaster is actually pretty important. Unfortunately the ringmaster is insisting on being mute and letting shit devolve into a full blown cesspit explosion.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on January 17, 2017, 09:38:08 pm
Listening to Theresa May's speech right now. She is working hard at appearing not-stern and upbeat but she's doing well.

Complete wishlist at the moment but I suppose it's the beginnings of a plan. Full leave and renegotiation is going to be madness though.

EDIT: Oh but wait: Scotland say they want to retain single market access.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on January 17, 2017, 09:51:49 pm
Quote from: Theresa May
It is not the means that matters, but the ends.

Uhh
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 19, 2017, 02:43:21 am
Quote from: Theresa May
It is not the means that matters, but the ends.

Uhh

 :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on January 23, 2017, 02:37:31 pm
Brexit won't have a negative effect on the UK economy. Businesses leaving is empty fear posturing from the remain camp.
Oh what's this...

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/lloyds-london-leaving-london/

I was expecting some of the smaller banks to do this, but Lloyds going is a huge problem, that will trigger some of the associated banks to move as well.

The worst is, because of the size of lloyds, and because of peoples automatic reaction to this, which will be to close accounts and move to Banks remaining British, the impact on the sterling and the financial stability of the uk is going to be risky. I would find it hilarious if Teresa May has to give a statement asking people not to close their accounts with this european bank as it could be damaging to the UK.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:08:06 pm
Along with HSBC and Deutsche Bank, this is going to gut London's financial centre.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:43:15 pm
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 23, 2017, 04:45:32 pm
 :lulz: Wow.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:58:53 pm
There's a reason I'm staying inside with the windows closed (other than it being cold outside).

I like how in 8 years time, the level may be considered safe, by the standards set by the EU which we are about to leave.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Salty on January 23, 2017, 05:00:12 pm
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498

Perhaps we can set up a business selling canned air. Sweet, Mt Hood, Oregonian air. For $50 per 12 oz canister. I am ready to bottle, sir.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 23, 2017, 05:10:26 pm
Amazon keeps sending me all this air in plastic pods. Maybe we could sell those.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on January 23, 2017, 05:14:55 pm
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498
Yeah, when I had to cross it I would come home and have to sit in the shower with lots of steam till my asthema subsided.

I had kind of expected deutchbank, not so much hsbc, but I was really surprised with Llyods would have thought of them as British as they come.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 12:38:28 pm
Supreme Court ruled we are still a country of laws, not men, and that royal perogative does not give the Prime Minister power to unilaterally break international treaties.

Expect allegations of treason and death threats against the judges in short order.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on January 24, 2017, 12:56:11 pm
It's already started.

Farage accuses them of delaying the process, others complaining it is ignoring the will of the people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4150822/Judges-ruling-PM-executive-powers-trigger-Brexit.html

The worst is, a strong foundation of governance is required in or out of the EU, if anything it shows the process on the balance of power is there to stop rash decisions by the Prime Minister

Now its probably all hot air as parliament will likely vote to accept whatever is put in front of them, but it is important that vote happens.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 01:09:07 pm
Depends on how badly Parliament wants to assert its independence.  There are arguments that the process thus far has been secretive and without input from key sectors of government and civil society....refusing to vote pending further input could give Parliament greater control over preceedings.  But then we have to balance that against character and actual assassination threats...

And why do we still let that tosspot Farage speak on anything?  Didn't he run off to America to be FOX News' new coffee boy?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 01:52:40 pm
Labour and Tory rebels are pushing for a white paper on Brexit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on January 24, 2017, 02:08:39 pm
Well at least it means brexit wont be happening this year. How long do inquiries take?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 02:13:34 pm
Over something as complex as Brexit?  Could be years.  Of course, it's not a given yet, but if they did get it, it would be a big win for accountability.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 17, 2017, 09:13:17 am
Blair making anti brexit statements. Guess that's fucked it then. Support for this idiocy will be at a record high by Monday.

In next weeks news, Charlie Manson explaining why you should have voted for Clinton.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 21, 2017, 06:13:24 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876

Quote
European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has warned the UK it faces a "very hefty" bill for Brexit.
He promised two years of "tough negotiation", when discussions on leaving terms get under way between the government and the European Union.
Exit will not come "at a discount or at zero cost", he said in a speech to the Belgian Federal Parliament.
Reports suggest the UK could have to pay the EU up to 60 billion euros (£51bn) after Brexit talks start.

As with any figure quoted in news like this, it's almost certainly going to be higher. 80bn+ would be my guess by the time the current incompetent mob finish the deal, around 90bn by the time the public get to know about it.

Austerity on meth is coming, and yet still half the country are just screaming to get on with it because they're damn fools with no understanding of political realities. May's legacy at this rate will be fucking the country to the nth generation. When the bill lands, that legacy may well expand to include the breakaway of scotland from this idiocy too. I wonder what kind of bill they'll try to level to those north of the border? I'd guess at least a quarter which will be treated in a similar fashion to poll tax demands.

I'm starting to think that making a few Canadian connections might not be the worst move I could make around now.



Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 22, 2017, 07:28:32 am
I wouldn't bank on scotland leaving the UK. We are a nation comprised almost exclusively of dumb fucks who already voted to remain based on the fact that our position in europe might be compromised if we left. I'm guessing they could state the same case this time around and we'd still fucking vote to stay an occupied territory. We, as a nation, are that stupid  :eek:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 22, 2017, 05:36:47 pm
I'm not so sure. It depends on just how big a shitshow brexit becomes to a degree. With idiot nationalism on the rise everywhere we might just join in.

When the brexit bill lands it'll force the conversation again at the least. A few more nhs and social care fuckups may just tip it.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on February 27, 2017, 08:46:31 pm
Meanwhile...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574

Quote
A woman married to a British man for 27 years has been sent back to Singapore.

Irene Clennell told the BBC she has been removed without warning.

She had been living near Durham with her husband, and has two British sons, as well as a granddaughter, in the UK.

Periods spent abroad caring for her parents are thought to have invalidated her residential status.

Note that this is under pre-Brexit rules.  This country is going to be a complete clusterfuck by April 2018
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 07, 2017, 11:32:42 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39200658

Quote
The amendment, which was carried by a majority of 98, would require the final terms of the UK's withdrawal from the EU to be put to separate votes in the Commons and the Lords.

Some peers believe this would amount to a veto but ministers insist the UK would leave the EU anyway irrespective of whether it was approved or not.

That constitutional crisis is still a possibility.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 14, 2017, 05:04:39 pm
Second referendum coming for Scotland it seems.

There's no good outcome here. It's difficult to assess which is going to be worse.

A-union and following the Tories off the cliff.

B-separation and a solo jump from a slightly different cliff.

All I'm sure about is we'll pick the worst possible option. It's inevitable.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 08:47:01 pm
Not to revel but a lot of Irish people have been joking about setting up The union of Craic, where The republic, Northern Ireland and Scotland form a state.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 14, 2017, 09:37:47 pm
That would stand a chance at being viable, if only there was a chance at stopping arguing which sect of Christianity is the right one.

So no hope there then.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 10:53:53 pm
That would stand a chance at being viable, if only there was a chance at stopping arguing which sect of Christianity is the right one.

So no hope there then.
For the time being, we recently discovered a mass grave of 700 bodies in a nunnery, even before that less then 30% of people are religious, We'll see what happens in the next few years. That said Northern Ireland is a massive money pit, it would probably take the Republic and the Scotts just to cover its day to day expenses.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 10:57:08 pm
11 billion deficit, I believe?

Probably higher, once Unionist terrorism starts up again.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 11:04:05 pm
Yeah, the North is getting really worrying,Republicans are laying off violence, because they need a smily happy face on the prospect of reunification of a united Ireland, though aren't above it if things go sour.  I really feel bad for the unionists, they are digging their heels in, feel like they are under attack from the republicans and all the while letting slip comments like Arlene Forester cant get in contact with Teresa May or Westminster, they have been hung out to dry.

I don't see why England would do that though, what is there to gain by alienating the unionists, unless it really is nothing more then a money issue with them.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 11:06:56 pm
I really think they'd be happy to see the back of Northern Ireland and let it be the Republic's problem.  Westminster saves money, less seats in Parliament (meaning greater theoretical Tory majority), washing hands of the Irish issue...I could see it appealing to short term thinkers.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 11:11:40 pm
Makes sense, great that would result in problems here, unless it became it's own state, at least in the interim. What about Scotland then, I would have thought they would be more reluctant to see that go because of the military bases, Cameron certainly played the "Better together" song well to them a couple of years back, May doesn't seem as engaging, well, with anyone.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 11:20:05 pm
Yes, and the dispute over ownership of the North Sea oil deposits.

On the other hand, removing Scotland from the Union would mean 59 less seats in Parliament, only one of which is reliably Tory.  It lowers the bar for obtaining a majority considerably.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 15, 2017, 09:27:58 am
I love how finally, on the way out the door, the people of scotland would have some input into who governs the UK. We're dumb, tho. Never going to happen. Calling it now - they'll offer the same line in bullshit, More power to scottish parliament and a secure place in europe and we'll eat it up like cupcakes cos we're a nation of retards  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 15, 2017, 11:53:41 am
Yeah the waterford wispers news weren't all that that subtle about their upset over the original result:
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/03/13/scotland-given-second-chance-to-shit-themselves/
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2017, 05:13:31 pm
Martin McGuinness died, he was the former second in command of the IRA, who turned politician and was one of the biggest campaigners to the peace process in NI, it's a real shame because he would have been a good hand to represent stability up there through what will be a painful Brexit process.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2017, 07:39:36 pm
Meanwhile, the scum are rising to the surface...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/20/jim-dowson-back-scottish-independence-patriotic-news-agency-far-right?CMP=fb_gu

Quote
A far-right millionaire with Ulster loyalist connections plans to use his international social media network, which backed Donald Trump, to support Scottish independence. Jim Dowson, a former financial backer of the British National party and former member of Britain First, confirmed on Monday that he will be deploying his “Patriotic News Agency” and other networks with their bases in Hungary and Serbia to promote Scottish separatism.

Quote
Dowson was unapologetic about his 180-degree turn on the union between Scotland and the rest of the UK. “I have been a fanatical defender of the union, but I am a pragmatist, and England is finished. It is not just finished because of the Muslim problem and immigration, but also because as of now we are looking at permanent Tory rule. There is no effective opposition to the Tories, so what do you want then – permanent Conservative rule for the next 30 years?”

Quote
A one-time member of the far-right Britain First organisation, which he resigned from three years ago, Dowson said he would be directing the pro-independence online media campaign from his bases in Hungary and Serbia as well as in Britain, including from an office in Stirling.

Quote
An unapologetic advocate of Christian nationalist anti-immigrant groups across Europe, the 52-year-old former evangelical preacher is also a strong proponent of Vladimir Putin. Dowson has spoken at a conference of far-right leaders in Russia and wants Trump to enter an era of cooperation with Putin.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2017, 11:51:18 pm
He sounds like an oppertunist, he sees nationalism in Scottland and NI as a way to promote more of the xenophobic aspects nationalism has become associated with. Ironically and what should have been obvious is that Scottland and NI leaving the UK results in them keeping the free trade and movement of Europe so he may be hitching his trailer onto the wrong truck.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 22, 2017, 04:45:16 am
Oh it is opportunism, but never underestimate how a multi-millionaire with deeply held convictions can sway the parameters of debate.  Especially when Scottish nationalists can't even admit that there is a racism problem among them.

With regards to the EU, it's my understanding that Scotland would leave, then have to reapply.  Even though Scotland would be mostly compliant, on the legislative side that process could take years.  I imagine the idea is to sway people's opinions on the suitability of doing so in the interim.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 25, 2017, 03:18:59 pm
UKIP's only MP has quit UKIP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39393213

Quote
Mr Carswell chose to announce the decision on his blog, saying: "I switched to UKIP because I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving UKIP."


Quote
Earlier this month, Mr Carswell vowed to "absolutely" fight the next general election as a UKIP candidate.


Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on March 26, 2017, 12:14:44 pm
So just what is in the water in Clacton anyway?  I mean, voting for Carswell when he was a Tory was bad enough, but I can sort of understand it.   But now?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 06:11:11 pm
Less than 5 days since we triggered article 50 and we already have senior political figures suggesting war with Spain in the national press

 :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 02, 2017, 07:07:38 pm
What ho, what good is leaving the EU if you cant go to war with them?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 08:14:53 pm
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 02, 2017, 08:26:38 pm
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.

Well you can expect the US to sit it out until the invoice is paid in full so you don't have to worry about any meddling in your "intra-alliance conflict." War is such a dirty word after all.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 10:04:34 pm
Interestingly enough, the UK actually pays the 2% of its GDP as required by NATO.  Spain, by contrast, only spends 1.2%, so at least we will have the support of President Trump.

In other news, 8 people beat a Kurdish teenage refugee almost to death, while a much larger group of 20 just sat on their hands and watched.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39470487

Quote
A group of up to 20 people looked on as a gang punched and kicked a teenage asylum seeker at a bus stop in south London, neighbours have said.

Eight people are being questioned by police on suspicion of the attempted murder of the Kurdish Iranian victim following Friday's attack in Shrublands Avenue, Croydon.

Those involved in the attack have been labelled "scum" by the local MP.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan also condemned the attack.

Worth noting that there was also a big joint Britain First and English Defence League march in London on the same day.  Could be coincidence...could be.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 02, 2017, 10:18:36 pm
So the war comments came because Spain has been offered a Veto on descisions for Gibraltar, the republicans in NI are calling for the same.
I hope it doesn't happen:Knowing how the unionists will react is a fast track to a return to the bad old days of soldiers being kneecapped, retaliating soldiers shooting children, leading to retailatory kneecappings repeat as you will for 30+ years and throw the odd bombing in there.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 10:30:43 pm
There's a lot of stupid nationalism coming, no matter what.  Throw Scottish successionism into the mix and the UK political bandwidth will be stretched to breaking point.

And that's without something like a downturn in the global economy, or, say, an international crisis with Russia, coming into the mix.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 12:29:31 am
So I should be investing in flag producing businesses then?

That's not even a joke, there's going to be plenty waved and burnt of all nations at this rate and it's not likely to slow down.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 12:39:25 am
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 01:37:59 am
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....



Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 02:33:00 am
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:

I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Emphasis on being 100% environment friendly cotton and sell with a canister of "government issue heating alcohol" (190 proof) as a fire starter kit in homes. CLEARLY state how it's intended to be used and specifically disclaim a whole bunch of horrible things one might do with such most especially "imbibing the heating alcohol".

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 03, 2017, 04:19:31 am
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.

This is how you world war I.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 03, 2017, 07:21:50 am
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:

Half of scotland think they're time travellers fighting the battle of the boyne. Scotland is going to be epic fun for the next couple of years.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 10:25:27 am
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Well, if we split with Scotland it will be back to the cross of St George.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2017, 11:29:50 am
Flag burning is a national pastime of the unionists up in NI, specifically their racist holiday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_Night

The Republic has no ill will for the UK, although they will try their best to pilfer any financial businesses they can, our useless leader doesn't want to get involved at all, and definitely wont ask about the veto, meanwhile that mess is ticking over: They failed to form a government last week so the north should have gone back into direct rule; Westminster's response was quite funny, it was basically "Take all the time you need, don't mind the deadline, just form a fucking government please".

I think the bandwidth thing will be really serious, between wasting time on Gibraltar, Scotland and NI, that's time that should be focused on trade deals, and offhand comments about going to war is not going to sweeten any of those trade deals.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 11:47:42 am
There was a study on that, in fact: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/20/brexit-could-force-uk-parliament-to-be-ineffective-on-everything-else-report.html

Quote
The IfG suggests that up to 15 new bills, in addition to the Great Repeal (Brexit) Bill, could be required to secure the U.K.'s future beyond its exit from the European Union. These will be announced at the annual Queen's Speech in May, and could address topics such as agriculture and trade.

The Queen's Speech forms part of the ceremonial start to the parliamentary year and outlines proposed legislation. The IfG's report argues that as roughly 20 bills are outlined in the speech, the predicted high proportion of those to be related to Brexit leaves little room to address other, perhaps domestic, issues.

The IfG also suggests that the legislative upheaval that Brexit is likely to catalyze could lead to the government using different routes to make changes to U.K. law, which could mean that such legal amendments are not subject to parliamentary scrutiny.

"The legislation required for Brexit will leave little parliamentary time for anything else … it will be a challenge for both the government and parliament to do all this while still ensuring full scrutiny and leaving room for the government's domestic policy agenda," Hannah White, IfG director of research, said in a statement.

But Andrew Hood, a lawyer at Dechert specializing in EU law and former legal adviser to previous U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron, told CNBC via telephone that the potential 15 additional bills, "minimizes the cliff-edge fear that people have." Hood added that U.K. parliament only has a "certain bandwidth," meaning that domestic issues could be "put on the backburner," but the significance of Brexit meant that it ought to take priority.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2017, 12:27:46 pm
That could also result in opportunistic bills being introduced in a hope that they will get through without much scrutiny as well, the US just passed a bill effectively killing net neutrality, and that was high profile, imagine what can get passed when no one is looking closely.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 02:36:36 pm
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Well, if we split with Scotland it will be back to the cross of St George.

True, but this is already an established market with sports and twats. We need to be watching the new markets which at the moment seems to be pushing for everyone. The story either way on the refugee is a mark of something quite special happening over here. And it's far from good to say the least.

Quote
I think the bandwidth thing will be really serious, between wasting time on Gibraltar, Scotland and NI, that's time that should be focused on trade deals, and offhand comments about going to war is not going to sweeten any of those trade deals.

Moving away from investment plans with obvious merit, there's this point.

I think you may be quite amazed at how every remaining scrap of UK territory will get drawn into this in some way or other. Things like  the Falklands will become issues of GREAT IMPORTANCE in due course. Let's not even start looking at the tax havens will get dragged into that. The chances of any kind of meaningful "deal" within 2 years in laughable, let alone any kind of good deal. It's as likely as Israel becoming cool with Palestinians in the next two years.

Add to that extremist views not feeling like they're being considered into the mix and I can see a few bombs or nasty events being more than likely. Which then stunts progress further into a lovely spiral of shite.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 02:57:33 pm
That could also result in opportunistic bills being introduced in a hope that they will get through without much scrutiny as well, the US just passed a bill effectively killing net neutrality, and that was high profile, imagine what can get passed when no one is looking closely.

This is pretty much a certainty. Any change in the law over the next few years will not be to your benefit and you probably won't even know about half of them, at best. Where gets extra funding is going to be comical too. Public services are just waiting to be fucked everywhere and there will be plenty of cash for a showy defence project soon enough to show the UK still is a" powerful and serious county, honestly, Look at how much we're throwing at the military... "
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 03, 2017, 03:12:23 pm
And all we can do is strap in and wait to get fucked?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 05:50:37 pm
And invest in Flagco Ltd.

Buy now!
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 06:17:53 pm
And invest in Flagco Ltd.

Buy now!

Buy Swiss francs with your new dirty flag money and start shorting both the pound and the euro as both will likely hyperinflate to "pay" for all this and everyone else will be fleeing to the Swiss as a stable currency. Australian dollars could be a good base too. They crank out a significant amount of gold there IIRC.*

*the above statement is wild speculation only and does not constitute advice of any sort the reader of the above by reading it retains sole liability for their financial and all other decisions.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 06:32:14 pm
Look, I'm totally not the owner of flagco Ltd so stop any further accusations of a stock scam now.

Wait, what?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 07:19:08 pm
Look, I'm totally not the owner of flagco Ltd so stop any further accusations of a stock scam now.

Wait, what?

 :lulz:  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 10:47:21 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39498647

May's already trying to manage expectations.  We're off to a good start.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:22:14 am
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2017, 11:24:37 am
I thought the freedom of movement was the whole reason for this thing?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 05, 2017, 01:18:49 pm
I thought the freedom of movement was the whole reason for this thing?

Nope, dumb fucks reading the Daily Fail and listening to Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and then being allowed to vote as opposed to being marched into a gas chamber was the reason for this whole thing  :lulz:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 05, 2017, 04:14:28 pm
One dehydrated toad on May not making it to the end of this whole ordeal.
As Prime Minister I mean. She might manage to live through it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 08:45:41 pm
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Or indeed no deal at all.  The EU is refusing to discuss trade at all until the UK has left the EU.

Which means we will have to revert to WTO rules until we have a trade deal in place.  Remember all those people saying "WTO deals are OK"?  Those people are fucking insane.  We would have to put tariffs on EU trade until we could negotiate one and the EU doesn't need our trade as badly as we need theirs.  If the EU wanted to play hardball, all they'd need to do is stall negotiations until we got fed up with everything going up massively in price and came to them, hand in cap, for whatever deal they were willing to offer.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 05, 2017, 09:03:49 pm
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Or indeed no deal at all.  The EU is refusing to discuss trade at all until the UK has left the EU.

Which means we will have to revert to WTO rules until we have a trade deal in place.  Remember all those people saying "WTO deals are OK"?  Those people are fucking insane.  We would have to put tariffs on EU trade until we could negotiate one and the EU doesn't need our trade as badly as we need theirs.  If the EU wanted to play hardball, all they'd need to do is stall negotiations until we got fed up with everything going up massively in price and came to them, hand in cap, for whatever deal they were willing to offer.

 :eek: But of course that will be painted as the EU's fault right? Holy fucking shit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2017, 09:07:50 pm
That's insane, I was expecting a hard-line stance, but that's the worst-case scenarios.
Tax on all import/export, cheap holiday travel, booze, food, shit... Energy, the UK is entering the worst energy deficit its had, it's going to be buying energy daily until the new nuclear plant is up and running which they are saying five years, realistically could be another ten.

My company builds our equipment here for distribution in the UK, I'm hoping not but am pessimistic that this won’t mean we will have to pay standard tariff as if moving outside the Eurozone.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 09:09:18 pm
Probably.  Everything is the EU's fault.  The EU, health and safety laws, political correctness or Muslims. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 05, 2017, 10:10:19 pm
So... Obama. I wonder how popular the NotMyPresident meme is in the UK despite it being ridiculously obvious.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 10:31:19 pm
The thing is in the UK, there's quite a big divide between the average person on the street, and political/pundit culture.  Most people in the UK, even the slightly racist ones, thought Obama was pretty decent, more or less.  Better than Bush, certainly, as Obama didnt lie us into any wars. 

But the pundit class...well, if you want to make it big, you can always try your luck in America.  And for conservative writers who want to stand out from the pack, that means appealing to the crazy right.  Curiously enough, the UKIP fringes share a lot of crazy beliefs with the crazy American right...
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:27:49 pm
That's insane, I was expecting a hard-line stance, but that's the worst-case scenarios.
Tax on all import/export, cheap holiday travel, booze, food, shit... Energy, the UK is entering the worst energy deficit its had, it's going to be buying energy daily until the new nuclear plant is up and running which they are saying five years, realistically could be another ten.

My company builds our equipment here for distribution in the UK, I'm hoping not but am pessimistic that this won’t mean we will have to pay standard tariff as if moving outside the Eurozone.

May I suggest you're underestimating the energy issue? Coal plants nationwide are reaching end of life and going bang. Other options are proving costly and still won't close the gap much. And they're also the best part of a decade away from operational, assuming all permissions fly through with no questions or opposition.

There's been a few bangs over the last couple of years due to old gear and there will be more before its even considered a real problem. And that's not even starting to look at who may own future facilities and the subsequent problems there.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2017, 05:00:14 am
The thing is in the UK, there's quite a big divide between the average person on the street, and political/pundit culture.  Most people in the UK, even the slightly racist ones, thought Obama was pretty decent, more or less.  Better than Bush, certainly, as Obama didnt lie us into any wars. 

But the pundit class...well, if you want to make it big, you can always try your luck in America.  And for conservative writers who want to stand out from the pack, that means appealing to the crazy right.  Curiously enough, the UKIP fringes share a lot of crazy beliefs with the crazy American right...

I'm convinced that the "right" is globalizing faster and more coherently than the "globalists" on the left that they rail against as a common enemy precisely because of the phantom enemy that they're indoctrinated to fear. This is partly intentional, but not under direct control. I think I once heard the term "ladder conspiracy" from a book by RAW on the subject. It's like how a telephone prank can put a business out by prank calling. Nobody involved in the prank calls really knows the others or tries to coordinate, but the same basic operating info and intent causes a coalescing of action that SEEMS coordinated and is indeed only in need of a little encouragement here and there by a small number of folks dropping the info in the right ears to perpetuate.

But in this case add BILLIONS of simoleons to that and folks worried that if they don't get on board there will literally be a takeover by reptilian demons from planet X bent on global enslavement.

That this "conspiracy" is possibly being most encouraged by people who think that they serve reptilian demons from planet X bent on global enslavement is merely one more freakish irony in a world of freakish ironies.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 12:09:15 pm
...And that's another election on the way.

The UK was upset at not being allowed to make stupid decisions on an annual basis, apparently.

Result is a foregone conclusion, once again the UK leads the way in proving that your vote is less useless due FPTP.

The ultimate irony is May positioning herself as the brexit champion when around this time last year the silly bint was campaigning against exactly that.

I was joking about a move to Canada a while ago, that's not really a joke anymore. At this rate with this level of continual idiocy it's more about when.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: MMIX on April 18, 2017, 12:27:05 pm
I'm really disappointed. My partner just shouted to me that Theresa May is going to the Poles, and I was all excited. But it is just the damnable POLLS again  :sad:
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2017, 12:42:03 pm
...And that's another election on the way.

The UK was upset at not being allowed to make stupid decisions on an annual basis, apparently.

Result is a foregone conclusion, once again the UK leads the way in proving that your vote is less useless due FPTP.

The ultimate irony is May positioning herself as the brexit champion when around this time last year the silly bint was campaigning against exactly that.

With people like May and the fat orange yank twat it's becoming increasingly obvious that the people doing these jobs are more into the idea of being the most important and powerful celebrity in the world, rather than actually taking on the duties and responsibilities of being the boss of a formerly significant industrialised nation.

May is the classic - Johnny Rotten hawking whichever brand of margarine stumps up the most cash whereas Trump comes across as someone who never really thought through the fact that president would be a job that involved actually doing something beyond just being the powerfullest and importantest wanker in the world and grabbing all the pussy but the fact remains. Politicians aren't really governing any more, they're just grifting a fuck off big paycheck.

Mainly US and UK, right enough, I'm not talking about proper countries here.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 18, 2017, 01:22:57 pm
So she had what, 3, 4 years left in the term, why call an election if not that the Tories want to be out of power.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 01:33:15 pm
Quite the opposite, it pretty much guarantees them another 5 years only now they get to play the "we've got a mandate card".

Scottish/irish/welsh votes will be pretty much unchanged. Lib-dems have no hope after their coalition cock-up. Labour are still FUBAR. It's a pretty solid strategy to keep them in that way. Labour can't campaign against brexit and they haven't a hope in hell of winning any additional seats without doing so.

Let's put it another way, if there was an easy way to guarantee you'd keep your cushy job for another 5 years, would you do it? Because that's exactly what's happening here.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 18, 2017, 01:40:07 pm
Great, so she is buying the election when the opposition is in disarray. At the taxpayers expense.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 01:48:42 pm
Exactly. And you've put any opposition against you into a shitty position because they can't argue against it without losing all credibility. If you wait any longer the full brexit shitshow will be obvious and loss of power is assured at the next scheduled election.

Even if by some miracle she loses, brexit negotiations fall onto someone else, who will then inevitably fuck it up and you're back in power sharpish afterwards. 

From a game theory perspective, it's excellently played and exactly what I would do in that position. Waiting gives you no advantages and actually comes with multiple drawbacks.

Quote
Politicians aren't really governing any more, they're just grifting a fuck off big paycheck.

And we have a winner. You can take the cash prize or open the mystery box.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 02:35:00 pm
This has almost nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with passing her domestic agenda by shutting down her opponents in the Tory Party (because if you were hoping for the opposition parties to do that, well  :lulz: ).

If this sounds familiar, it's because it's exactly the same reasoning that David Cameron used to put us in this current predicament.

Now, I did argue for a General Election...but that was last year, after May became leader of the Tory party.  At that time, my thinking was that making the GE be about Brexit - and having the different parties put forward their strategies, to be voted on.  Stay in the common market or not, approach to immigration etc.  But now?  Now it's just a blatant power grab, especially because in an unsure political climate, people are likely to favour the status quo over making any hard changes.  Just imagine if, somehow, Corbyn did become PM in June.  It would mean radically changing the terms on which Brexit is going to be negotiated.  People aren't going to go for that.

Which is exactly what May is counting on.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 03:00:07 pm
Not just the terms of the negotiations, but practically everyone and everything that has already been done to date. How much has actually been done is questionable but there will be a huge reluctance to replace anyone involved while the clock is now officially ticking.

The chances of corbyn getting anywhere are around the same as Rolf Harris. Which in around 8 weeks leads to further in-fighting for a few months (at least) leadership challenges, etc. So any domestic changes will pass totally unchallenged for the best part of the year. And that's an optimistic view.

The funniest prospect that I can see is another potential coalition government. While unlikely, it would just add to the overall fuckups and inevitable complications.

Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 03:03:56 pm
In fact, fuck it, calling it now - Next government is a coalition of SNP and the Tories. Before you say how stupid that is, just consider what the lib-dems did for 30 pieces of silver. Now look me in the eye and tell me that they wouldn't do exactly the same thing in a heartbeat if given the slightest chance.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 03:47:14 pm
The SNP would fuck the entire country over on the promise on a referendum. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 08:01:57 pm
Hey now, that's not fair. By which I mean you're being far too kind.

The SNP would fuck the country over for a packet of sweets and feeling of momentary relevance.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 08:31:16 pm
Politico poll is projecting a slaughter for Labour atm.  70 lost seats, with the Tories picking up 69.  That would give the Tories a majority of 150 seats.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 08:42:10 pm
Oh ho ho!

Crown Prosecution Service has just confirmed it intends to charge 30 people over the Tory election expenses scandal.  This could get interesting
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 18, 2017, 09:23:29 pm
Oh ho ho!

Crown Prosecution Service has just confirmed it intends to charge 30 people over the Tory election expenses scandal.  This could get interesting

What are the implications of this?
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 10:05:53 pm
Scandal for the Tories.  Maybe a fine.  But mostly scandal.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 11:24:58 pm
On the plus side, we will get treated to the spectacle of Theresa May being utterly skewered in the debates.  Corbyn tends not to go for gotcha moments, but Farron and rather formidable Sturgeon will in his absence.  My email from the Lib Dems also suggests they are going scorched earth, to try and make this Brexitref 2.0 - a good tactic for them, but possibly not for the country.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 12:58:40 am
The debates may is apparently not bothering with you mean? Makes a lot more sense why now.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2017, 01:34:44 am
Hah, what a coward.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 19, 2017, 08:49:47 am
And I thought 2017 couldn't get any more fun  :sad:

If the debates go ahead and May isn't there that wouldn't be a good look either though right? I guess she's gotta weigh up how much of a savaging she's gonna get vs. not putting her point across at all.

Pretty sure the Tories don't give a damn about scandal any more.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 10:06:43 am
And I thought 2017 couldn't get any more fun  :sad:

If the debates go ahead and May isn't there that wouldn't be a good look either though right? I guess she's gotta weigh up how much of a savaging she's gonna get vs. not putting her point across at all.

Pretty sure the Tories don't give a damn about scandal any more.

Why should they? The electorate are conditioned to accept pretty much any shit their rulers want to throw them. Same as it was in the dark ages only now the peasants are much more docile and accepting of the situation. Revolution is less likely and any glimmer of activism can be deflected with a keypress. What's changed in the last couple of hundred years? Only one thing - propaganda is now 110% effective. Human beings are programmable drones. They always were but it took a while to figure out how to hack them. The exceptions to this rule? Outnumbered millions to one. You want to stand up and do something to change the situation? Good luck. Government inc. will flick a switch and the ten thousand people nearest you will start attacking you with clubs.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 10:24:50 am
Let's put it another way: they simply don't need to. Murdoch press and others are rabidly pro Tory so as at a bare minimum the sun, express, times and mail will either ignore or mock the debates with no torys present. The BBC will include their comments on any debate without hard questions due to the non biased stance.

Why bother turning up to something that you win easily by not attending? Much more cost effective to let your rivals beat each other up and let mass media make all your points for you.

The seriously concerning thing is this effectively turns the UK into a one party state for the next 5 years at a minimum. The only real opposition will be from the snp and that can be dismissed with ease.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 19, 2017, 10:31:43 am
I actually can't even tell if May has a point to make.

Seems like she wants bigger 'mandate' for Brexit process without all that pesky opposition. I wonder what kind of crazy shit she's planning that she has got to burn away the last vestiges of the left before she carries it out.

I wonder what crazy shit she's doing right now while we're all distracted.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 12:25:48 pm
If it's any consolation, probably less than you may think.

Why be sneaky when you can just wait 8 weeks and get applauded for the exact same shit?

Anyone making predictions for the coming of Austerity 3.0? I'm guessing the NHS sold wholesale to US firms to begin with. They're already talking about selling the RBS stake "at a loss". I assume that will get sold to the usual suspects. Crapita and G4S are probably in line for some very tasty contracts in the near future too, as usual.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 19, 2017, 12:44:16 pm
The RBS thing gives me a bit of schadenfreude, over the last few months there have been a contingent pushing that Ireland should rejoin the commonwealth and that as a Independent nation state we had a failed banking sector because we had to nationalise AIB by 96%, the states stake is going up for IPO in the next few months, expecting a profit of about 30% on it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 12:49:48 pm
If it's any consolation, probably less than you may think.

Why be sneaky when you can just wait 8 weeks and get applauded for the exact same shit?

Anyone making predictions for the coming of Austerity 3.0? I'm guessing the NHS sold wholesale to US firms to begin with. They're already talking about selling the RBS stake "at a loss". I assume that will get sold to the usual suspects. Crapita and G4S are probably in line for some very tasty contracts in the near future too, as usual.

I expect Austerity 3.0 will be fairly - final solution. The rest depends what they're planning on doing with this island. Could be a manufacturing base, could be a tax haven, maybe a weapons platform. Here's the thing, unless they plump for a longpig hunting reserve, none of the options require anything like 64million-odd well fed primates. They used to need the working class, now they're just a drain on resources. Pretty soon they'll be an eyesore and that's when the cleanup crews arrive.

Dumb fucks will be begging for it, even as they're being shovelled into gas chambers. I'll be too busy laughing at them to have any sympathy. Or, hey, maybe I'm wrong and the future isn't going to happen here, in which case it'll be even funnier to watch everything revert to the stone age while everybody starves to death.

Remember back when that stinking dead cunt thatcher had to deal with millions of unemployed back in the 80's? Police state? Ghettos? These new tories will soon have a lot more than a paltry couple of million on their plate. This does not end well for the masses. At this point, as far as I'm concerned, they deserve it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:07:05 pm
Oh it's much funnier than that.

Taking Unemployment as an example, how do you get this down to record lows? Well to start with, you close all the job centres you can. People still need to turn up in person to a job centre that is now 20+ miles away in order to claim benefits. Can't afford to travel there? Well that's a sanction (read - Penalty charge) for you and removal of any/all remaining benefits. You're not entitled to any support and you no longer factor into unemployed statistics as you've been kicked off it and are just a lazy parasite, not someone who's in a terminally fucked situation. Catch 22 had nothing on the kinds of statistical manipulation you'll be seeing over the next couple of years.

The end result here is going to be social unrest on a national scale. Food riots are a very strong possibility at the moment. The main question is where and when. I wouldn't rule out seeing a few affluent people killed and cannibalised at this rate. Hell, this should probably happen anyway just to send the appropriate message to the rest of the job creators.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:09:49 pm
The RBS thing gives me a bit of schadenfreude, over the last few months there have been a contingent pushing that Ireland should rejoin the commonwealth and that as a Independent nation state we had a failed banking sector because we had to nationalise AIB by 96%, the states stake is going up for IPO in the next few months, expecting a profit of about 30% on it.

That's worth watching. I'd expect that 30% to be slowly eroded down to fuck all as the IPO date approaches.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 01:28:56 pm
Oh it's much funnier than that.

Taking Unemployment as an example, how do you get this down to record lows? Well to start with, you close all the job centres you can. People still need to turn up in person to a job centre that is now 20+ miles away in order to claim benefits. Can't afford to travel there? Well that's a sanction (read - Penalty charge) for you and removal of any/all remaining benefits. You're not entitled to any support and you no longer factor into unemployed statistics as you've been kicked off it and are just a lazy parasite, not someone who's in a terminally fucked situation. Catch 22 had nothing on the kinds of statistical manipulation you'll be seeing over the next couple of years.

The end result here is going to be social unrest on a national scale. Food riots are a very strong possibility at the moment. The main question is where and when. I wouldn't rule out seeing a few affluent people killed and cannibalised at this rate. Hell, this should probably happen anyway just to send the appropriate message to the rest of the job creators.

Optimist. Hey, I'd like to see the underdogs bite back as much as the next guy but there are way to many false divisions being driven through the group. If there's food riots, it'll be those benefit scrounging unemployed fucks to blame. Expect public sympathy to back the good old boys in black and blue, defending public order against the subhuman scumbags and immigrants. People actually sympathised with the miners and they got away with billyclubbing them to a pulp. Everybody hates the unemployed already. The teevee is pumping out scrounging bastard propaganda 24/7. I expect in a few years time Ant and Dec will be holding phone-in competitions for a member of the public to press the dronestrike button.

When unemployment is up to 30% it'll still be that 30% that's to blame  for all societies woes and joe public will be screaming for deathcamps. That's how unemployment gets down to zero - we kill them. Eventually the population will level off at a couple of hundred rich wankers.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:38:27 pm
I'd like to argue with you and prove you wrong.

I'd like to do that, but I really can't.

I'm seriously looking at the emigration process to Canada now. I've got a wife and child to consider now and there's literally no (positive) future here. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 01:58:33 pm
Canada would be an appealing option if not for the fact that the US is right next door. Pretty sure Canada is going to cop more than a bit of fallout when that shit implodes. All my exit strategies involve remote places. Far enough away from population centers to hole up and avoid the flak but close enough to pay the odd scavenging visit.

Best case scenario - the dust settles and some progressive liberal fucks have pwnt the global economy and are handing out UBI to all comers.

Worst case - who fucking cares, it's all over at that point
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2017, 10:50:53 pm
I've heard...rumours...that May wants to pass a far more centralizing agenda for Parliament and the Prime Minister.  Exactly what this entails isn't clear, only that once Brexit is done with, there will still be 3 years on Parliament's shelf life, giving them a huge amount of say over the constitutional arrangements going forward.  Maybe...reducing the powers of Scottish Parliament, to offsee IndyRef 2.0?  Depends how stupid Tories drunk on power with no viable opposition intend to be, but overseas precedents are...unsettling.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 21, 2017, 11:23:13 am
If the other parties can by some fluke claw back enough seats to remove the Conservative majority (which is... 17 seats? Seems like a bit of a stretch) what would happen? Coalition?

Seems like this was a really bad time to call a GE - everyone is concentrating on campaigning instead of Brexit. If the Tories gain seats that's probably good for them but not for anyone else. If there is some sort of hung parliament then there will be even less consensus on how we should go about leaving the EU.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2017, 11:45:42 am
I don't think anyone even wants to form a coalition with the Tories.  The Lib Dems are making this entire campaign about Brexit - if they signed up with the Tories again, the party would collapse from the sheer hypocrisy.  The SNP...would demand IndyRef 2.0, and the Tories wont give it to them.  UKIP is done.  None of the Irish parties want hard Brexit.  The Greens? Hahahahaha.

In that very unlikely event, the Tories would have to rule as a minority government.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Faust on April 21, 2017, 11:56:10 am
Can we hope for The Grand Coalition of Fuck The Tories?
Sinn Fienn +ulster unionists + SNP + Libdems + labour + greens for government, Jeremy Corben for PM
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2017, 11:58:02 am
Corbyn ruled it out, like the dingbat he is.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 21, 2017, 08:59:35 pm
"(No) power at any cost" is apparently labours campaign slogan.
Title: Re: EU Referendum 23rd June: In or Out?
Post by: Cain on April 22, 2017, 10:28:58 am
"Tories have power, therefore power is bad.  The only way to remain virtuous is to eschew all attempts at power and sniff your own farts for all eternity." - the Labour Party 2017 manifesto, or it may as well be.

Like, I get the sentiment of not wanting to play gotcha politics etc which Corbyn espouses.  I'm very sympathetic to it.  But you're not going to get that kind of political culture overnight, and you're in a far better place to deliver it with an iron-clad Labour majority in the Commons than you are with your own party mounting abortive coup attempts against you every 6 months and you're stuck fending off the Lib Dems (of all fucking people). 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 25, 2017, 07:45:53 pm
I see the anti Lib Dem strategy is "Tim Farron hates Teh Ghey (maybe)".  Even though he doesn't, and even if he did, he's already said his personal opinion doesn't reflect the party's longstanding commitment to LGBT rights.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 25, 2017, 10:04:27 pm
I see the anti Lib Dem strategy is "Tim Farron hates Teh Ghey (maybe)".  Even though he doesn't, and even if he did, he's already said his personal opinion doesn't reflect the party's longstanding commitment to LGBT rights.

Someone's bothering to come up with an anti-lib-dem strategy? That's a colossal waste of resources. They are their own anti strategy.

Last story I saw on them was "We're up to 100K members". Which is almost enough to win a seat if they are all in the same location. Which they aren't. So it amounts to "100K people have wasted their own money and can be safely ignored".


In related news, Blair surfaced again to encourage strategic voting against the tories. If that doesn't seal a tory landslide I don't know what will.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 25, 2017, 10:17:57 pm
Presumably the idea is use their claim to being the anti-Brexit party "seriously", thrash the Dems and then claim it's a mandate for Brexit because if people were seriously against it, the Lib Dems would've won big.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 25, 2017, 10:44:11 pm
That makes a disturbing degree of sense. Particularly when the biggest lib-dem win ever was still pathetically small. Beating up the weak to show how powerful and dominant you are pretty much summarises the typical tory style of government.

So this is how the UK becomes a one party state. The left becomes ideologically the same as the right with different language and then just allows itself to implode while blaming everyone else.

My timescale for getting the fuck out of here just kicked up a notch. You know, while we still can.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 29, 2017, 07:58:58 pm
The Ho Ho continues. The eu has sent out initial bargaining points to which the UK would be smart to agree to as they are pretty much reasonable and asking the reverse would be an easy win for all concerned.

Needless to say, this is being touted as further examples of the eu mafia acting like some kind of club that only wants to protect its own members interests. How very unreasonable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 29, 2017, 09:18:48 pm
The only element of the EU's bargaining stance that worries me is that they wont negotiate a trade deal until a separation deal is made.

That could very easily see the clock run out on the UK's EU membership without a replacement EU trade deal in place (these things take years to negotiate).  And in the interim, this would mean reverting to the WTO rules, aka "prices go up on everything and we're all fucked".

I expected them to take this stance, because it hurts us more than it hurts the EU, but I can't say I'm happy about being right.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 01, 2017, 06:41:02 pm
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 01, 2017, 09:28:09 pm
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.
:horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 01, 2017, 10:48:43 pm
The leaks on the Junker/May meeting (most likely by the commission themselves which is bad form) is a hard read

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

I'd take a lot of that with a pinch of salt, it’s the start of a negotiating process and both sides were always going to overstate the case, the interesting one is that the EU won’t make any trade agreements unless the UK pays all dues, which of course was the fire that Farage/Boris used to rally voters for Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 02, 2017, 01:04:06 am
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.

Is it bad that I kinda miss Blair?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 02, 2017, 03:26:00 am
Blair's evil looks fantastically competent compared to the last three shitshows who have been PM.

He was almost like walking proof of the "Lyndon Johnson liberal hawk" school of political thought, which says its possible to have successful welfare measures at home, so long as you wage deranged, pointless wars abroad to offset right-wing criticism.  The NHS was more or less funded, as were the schools (neither of which are now), and we actually had real influence in Europe (lololololol).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 02, 2017, 03:27:29 am
The leaks on the Junker/May meeting (most likely by the commission themselves which is bad form) is a hard read

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

I'd take a lot of that with a pinch of salt, it’s the start of a negotiating process and both sides were always going to overstate the case, the interesting one is that the EU won’t make any trade agreements unless the UK pays all dues, which of course was the fire that Farage/Boris used to rally voters for Brexit.

May is denying it, but I have to admit, it reads as being pretty accurate.  May is incredibly weak on foreign affairs - her lack of knowledge almost certainly means she is underestimating the difficulty of extracting the UK from the EU, and if she's treating the civil service like the press...well, I can see why no-one would be able to tell her otherwise.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 02, 2017, 09:31:22 am
'Nobody knew that health care Brexit could be so complicated'  :horrormirth:
no wonder she invited agent orange over for some bells and whistles with elizabeth windsor; she's apparently as stupid and arrogant as he is
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 12:40:00 am
https://www.ft.com/content/cc7eed42-2f49-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

Quote
Following direct requests from several member states, EU negotiators have revised their initial calculations to maximise the liabilities Britain is asked to cover, including post-Brexit farm payments and EU administration fees in 2019 and 2020.

Although over coming decades Britain’s net bill would be lower than the €100bn upfront settlement, the more stringent approach to Britain’s outstanding obligations significantly increases the estimated €60bn charge mentioned by Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 12:43:32 am
Meanwhile... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39784170#

Quote
Theresa May says she will be a "bloody difficult woman" towards European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker during Brexit talks.

The PM revived a line used during her Tory leadership campaign to respond to claims the two clashed over dinner.

She also declined to commit to settling the issue of expats' rights by June.

EU sources claim UK misunderstanding of the talks process, and ignorance about how Brussels works, could lead to no deal being agreed on the UK's exit.

But STRONG AND STABLE amirite?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 02:04:18 am
Astounding. "No deal" is pretty much inevitable now.  Cue 2 years of being told why this is better than the existing arrangements.

This is like bluffing at poker when you have a hand of shit and your opponent has openly shown a royal flush and is asking you nicely not to give them any more money because you can't fucking win. May and Co seem to genuinely believe that the UK is somehow more important than 27 other countries combined and the inevitable results will not be pretty.

In totally unrelated news, I'm trying to talk Carlos the jackal into a patreon deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 02:10:44 am
It's going to be a clusterfuck.  A strong and stable clusterfuck, if that's any consolation.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 07:25:43 am
Every time I hear "Strong and stable"
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9e/9e8779da00b38a07421df18f110a832e2e6caba060cec6e01bad041d4f2f21a3.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:51:50 am
It's all relative really. While the reality is that another conservative government will be as strong and stable as this:
(https://i.giphy.com/Z2PT0mBoPFniw.gif)
And we know that's being kind to them.

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.

There was a RAW quote along the lines of "The left is just as robotic as the right". The current reality seems to be that the left is functionally identical to the right so regardless of what you vote for you will still get a heaping pile of shit shovelled in your general direction.   
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 10:11:24 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39789903

Quote
The UK will not pay a £84.6bn "divorce bill" to leave the EU, Brexit Secretary David Davis has insisted.

Quote
Various figures had been knocking around, he said, but asked directly whether a figure of £84.6bn or €100bn - was acceptable, he replied: "We will not be paying €100bn."

Taking bets on the final figure. £99 Billion quite likely. 120+ very much in the realms of possibility given how useless the people involved on the UK side are.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 03, 2017, 11:04:03 am
Isn't closing off debt owed to the EU and getting a proper trade agreement a way cheaper option? I mean this way the valiant Tories can look like they fearlessly stared down the EU, but in WTO rules (21% Import, 21% Export) that's going to rack up to a lot more then 100B, It will probably exceed that in the first six months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 12:31:45 pm

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.


Corbyn has that spineless schoolteacher affectation so popular amongst left wingers, spouting condescending "reasonableness" all over the place which is exactly the kind of thing that makes him so easy for the right to hate. The right know how things work in the "real world" and sometimes you just have to don a black shirt and gas a few eggs. The irony is that the "real world" is only like that cos the right wing make it like that with their knuckle dragging retarded shit making a mess all over the place.

I aint throwing my towel in with the left, tho. They sound good on paper but in practice they're just too easy to hate. They wear fucking woolen tanktops without a hint of irony and their ideas are all based on some pie in the sky bullshit that requires all the primates to act like rational conscious entities at all times. Shit, if your masterplan only requires a tiny minority to act like rational conscious entities even for a split second I'm going to call you a fucking idiot destined for failsville.

And then there's the total fuckhead fringe movements. Greens, Libdems, Pirate Party...

These are the choices I'm presented with and then told my vote is important. Au contraire democracy fanboy, I'm pretty sure I get to watch this shithole country burn to the ground regardless of how or even if I choose to vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 12:51:22 pm
Isn't closing off debt owed to the EU and getting a proper trade agreement a way cheaper option? I mean this way the valiant Tories can look like they fearlessly stared down the EU, but in WTO rules (21% Import, 21% Export) that's going to rack up to a lot more then 100B, It will probably exceed that in the first six months.

You're using common sense and logic here. Stop that. There is no place here for such things anymore.

Any concessions from the UK to the EU, regardless of what they actually are will be met with howls of disdain from the usual suspects who have now been given enough media attention to start having delusions of relevance. There is a not insignificant number of people who think that farage for instance, is relevant and worth listening to.

Whoever is involved in the negotiations from the UK side can't win. It's impossible. So what do you do when you're playing a game you can't win? Well, think about the last time you played monopoly and there was one person who was clearly going to win. But you didn't like that. So you draw it out for as long as possible hoping for either an incredibly improbable series of dice rolls while hoping the winner will just say fuck it and walk away. Leaving you as the "winner" despite you losing by any measure.

There will also come a point when the negotiators realise that a trade deal cannot be reached within the timescale allowed. This impacts the UK far more than the EU. The UK has every reason to push for one quickly, the EU has no incentive to do so. If I were negotiating for the EU I'd spend a lot of time looking at my watch and giving a slow countdown until the realisation of "you're fucked" starts setting in. Then let the idiots across the table try and appease me by offering whatever they can for a crumb to take back to the PM.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 01:16:54 pm

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.


Corbyn has that spineless schoolteacher affectation so popular amongst left wingers, spouting condescending "reasonableness" all over the place which is exactly the kind of thing that makes him so easy for the right to hate. The right know how things work in the "real world" and sometimes you just have to don a black shirt and gas a few eggs. The irony is that the "real world" is only like that cos the right wing make it like that with their knuckle dragging retarded shit making a mess all over the place.

I aint throwing my towel in with the left, tho. They sound good on paper but in practice they're just too easy to hate. They wear fucking woolen tanktops without a hint of irony and their ideas are all based on some pie in the sky bullshit that requires all the primates to act like rational conscious entities at all times. Shit, if your masterplan only requires a tiny minority to act like rational conscious entities even for a split second I'm going to call you a fucking idiot destined for failsville.

And then there's the total fuckhead fringe movements. Greens, Libdems, Pirate Party...

These are the choices I'm presented with and then told my vote is important. Au contraire democracy fanboy, I'm pretty sure I get to watch this shithole country burn to the ground regardless of how or even if I choose to vote.

Here's what annoys the tits off of me: For the "business party" it's maddening how little actual business experience the whole bunch of muppets seem to actually have. I've been in many, many contract negotiations from both sides. Sometimes, a deal is just not possible. The client wants you to do the exact same job for 30% less for instance. Or they will use someone else. Fine, thanks, fuck you and I'm out. Sometimes a single line of text in a 50+ page document becomes a point of contention and you'll both spend half a day re-wording it until you get something you both agree on which is often the exact same thing as what you fucking started with. Perhaps with a quick caveat penned in underneath.

But again, sometimes, a deal is just not possible. One party wants something that the other just can't stomach. There's a stack of reasons why: Cost, Timescale, Bribes, lack of experience, not wanting to give another contract to the same firm as this means that no-one else can possibly get the required experience, the list is practically fucking endless. And all of these can easily cause one side to just say "Thank you, I'm going to fuck off now because this is a waste of time and going nowhere". And that's when you're both starting off on friendly terms and want it to work.

Now compare this to the EU deals. Vastly more complex than anything I have dealt with. Pitfalls I can't even think about. Problems you can't even know about until you're deep into it. More paper than a small forest will produce. Starting from a position of mutual disdain. Made worse by a population of idiots who consider any concessions an unforgivable weakness and anything gained as not enough.

How long before it all falls to shit and "no deal" becomes the inevitable result? I'd guess around the new year. Long enough to make a good show of it and enough time to let the papers build themselves into frenzy about how unfair it all is for the poor old UK. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 03, 2017, 01:22:30 pm
Shouldn't we also be thinking about setting up trade deals with all the other non-EU entities in the world at some point?

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 01:46:02 pm
Shouldn't we also be thinking about setting up trade deals with all the other non-EU entities in the world at some point?

Oh yes. And that's where another level of fun comes in.

China will be kind of important as they've got a big stake in power generation here, among other things.

Various middle eastern nations will be expecting arms shipments, as will various african nations.

The USA will be expecting some kind of super, very very good deal. Probably just give them the NHS kind of deal.

Brazil would be good to have an arrangement with, as would argentina but that may cost the falklands. Which isn't too bad, as spain will have already taken Gibraltar back.

Japan and a number of other nations in the far east would be good. So would India. Russia would also be wise.


The problem is, there's barely enough people to handle the EU crap. Certainly far fewer competent people than should be involved too. So either you split the competence between 100+ other nations working on individual deals, do one deal at a time with a "competent" (and I use that term very loosely) team or draft in a bunch of other people who have no idea what they're doing and get them to look busy. The only plausible results are shoddy deals done quickly for PR purposes, probably with very dodgy nations or a never-ending bureaucratic cycle that takes years to make any progress whatsoever.

This is part of the whole clusterfuck, no-one is really able to admit the scale of the undertaking here. Sisyphus would look at this task and think it's excessive.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 02:31:23 pm
What we're dealing with here is ego. On a national scale. Britain, as a nation, seems to think it's something other than the shrivelled up husk of a failed empire with very little to offer an would be partner other than some tax breaks. Actually, since Brexit the tax breaks are mostly off the menu and we'll no doubt see them morph over time into the kind of third world exploitation befitting our financial and political standing.

By 2025 China may well be building residential sweat shops over here but that's only if 3d printing doesn't eat distributed manufacturing in the meantime. If it does then we'll be a footnote in some xmas appeal for the starving xenophobic children.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 06:15:20 pm
(https://memecrunch.com/meme/26VDX/joker-here-we-go/image.png)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353

Quote
Theresa May has accused European politicians of making "threats" against Britain to try to influence the general election result.

The PM launched a stinging attack on the "bureaucrats of Brussels" in a speech outside 10 Downing Street after meeting the Queen.

She said some in Brussels wanted Brexit talks to fail.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said she was "playing party games with Brexit" to try to win the general election.

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said it was "irresponsible" of her to "poison" the atmosphere with the EU.

And a senior EU source told the BBC the PM's suggestion that officials were trying to affect the election result was "pure fantasy".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 08:50:39 pm
My headlines time machine is a bit iffy, but it's giving curious results:

"Farage finds shit in own pantaloons, 'clearly the work of EU bureaucrats'"

"May promises land of milk and honey inevitable regardless of deal"

"Corbyn preforms black masses 'all the time' says Deputy"

"May causes house prices to raise due to magic".

"Johnson nails deals with short fellows and chupacabras".

"Juncker asks UK to take process seriously for five minutes".

"Farage still unable to figure out who keeps shitting in his pants".
 
"EU ungrateful for all assistance given during WW2".

"May: No deal strategy worked for Edmonds show, it's the best move now".

"Border chaos as Ex-pats returned to UK".

"EU Nazis cause house prices to crash".

"Proposals to block channel tunnel considered, race is on to be the first side to start".



I have no idea why I bought this thing.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:25:26 pm
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

Quote
U.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

Quote
Prime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: PoFP on May 03, 2017, 10:29:08 pm
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

Quote
U.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

Quote
Prime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.

I feel like the potential for this situation should've been a MAJOR talking point during the debates leading up to the Brexit vote...

Was it not?  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 10:38:30 pm
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

Quote
U.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

Quote
Prime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.

I feel like the potential for this situation should've been a MAJOR talking point during the debates leading up to the Brexit vote...

Was it not?  :lulz:

Nope. Must. Secure. Borders.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 11:03:07 pm
Immigrants bad! EU Complex! Many people not white! Things today different than 1950 and I'm scared!

That's probably giving the leave argument more nuance than they've bothered with.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 03, 2017, 11:49:36 pm
The Nuclear issue is just the tip of the iceberg for the looming energy problems.
I know I know common sense, but I think everyone who can should know the following

The UK Imports energy daily to maintain grid stability (if you have a surplus you have a danger of the frequency going high and transformers blowing, if you have a shortage you have brownouts, not in and of themselves a huge problem apart from the impact on industry, day to day life, hospitals etc. Unless you get a blackout event. It takes a LONG time to get the grid back on line from a blackstart, you have to do it gradually in small sections around the country).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/0/why-the-uk-is-using-less-energy-but-importing-more---and-why-it/
“Imports accounted for just under 40 per cent of UK energy supplies last year”

The UK import prices are good currently, Europe uses collective bargaining to get oil cheaply by buying in large quantities for guaranteed amounts of time.
Even internally the North/South Interconnect allows The Republic to export our surplus wind on a daily basis now, with low costs.
In all likelihood leaving the collective bargaining pool is an attempt to pass the costs on to the industries that require it (someone is going to have to foot the bill). Food transport, airlines, Manufacturing are all going to be hit. Take this already grim example from Mini

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

They were already talking about the fears around sourcing parts that are completed on the continent, now imagine the shipping costs involved in moving those back and forth when it’s not heavily subsidised.
China has already been devouring the steel industry in the UK, now imagine what they can do to the rest of the manufacturing industry as energy and transport costs raise.
It is now in China’s interest to delay the development of the new plant as long as they can and deliberately foster an energy crisis in the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 04, 2017, 12:15:05 am
The beautiful thing from the chinese perspective is that they won't even have to pull anything crafty to delay shit, the government and local residents will do all the heavy lifting for them in delaying new builds. In the meantime, existing powerstations will get shut down or run into the ground until there's a serious incident causing unplanned shortages.

This is the hilarious thing about brexit, pick any product, service or peice of infrastructure you care to name and it goes to shit once you're out of the EU.

But hey, the UK will be free. Free to starve, in the cold and dark while the population turn into a chav version of mad max.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 12:35:06 am
Immigrants bad! EU Complex! Many people not white! Things today different than 1950 and I'm scared!

That's probably giving the leave argument more nuance than they've bothered with.

Lets not forget the shape of bananas. Honestly, with an electorate this fucking retarded the only thing stopping the left from straight up taking control of their brains and working them with joypads is some irrelevant and self defeating sense of morality. They'll end up getting eaten by the shambling abominations they're insisting on treating like human beings.

I have 101 plans for the future at any given time. Right now 99.9% involve me watching the whole thing and laughing my tits off, with an icepick closeby just in case some poor deluded fuckhead mistakes me for a member of the other side.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 04, 2017, 10:07:00 am
Right I know I've harped on about the NI issue, but this one is really annoying me. Milk and the best quality beef in Europe is one of Irelands popular exports

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/brexit-blockade-uk-giant-wants-ban-on-irish-meat-35679027.html

Ok fine, shots fired and it appears to be with a misguided attempt to support British trade. It will hurt the Irish economy, which sucks but we will get over it, probably have to sell it for less in mainland Europe.

Northern Ireland however appears to have hit bit this crazy decision. NI which is part of the UK, is now being told it cant sell to the rest of its own country because Brexit? I don't know if you know much about NI but its a grim fucking place, ship building industry there went the way of the Titanic, the weather is awful, they don't have an awful lot going for them... Apart from agriculture. I always take the nationalist rhetoric of the SNP with a touch of salt, but Sturgeon is right when she talks about England fucking the whole union under the bus.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 04, 2017, 03:46:05 pm
There's also the question of what Ireland would want to ban in return, if we were stupid enough to do this, and do we really want to go down the route of tit-for-tat trading disputes with our closest trading partners?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 04:13:26 pm
There's also the question of what Ireland would want to ban in return, if we were stupid enough to do this, and do we really want to go down the route of tit-for-tat trading disputes with our closest trading partners?

Um... hasn't that particular horse already left the station?  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 04, 2017, 04:32:40 pm
Listen, sorry to spring this on you, but we've discussed this amongst ourselves, we're going to take back our big brother winners. You can keep Jedward though
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 09:20:01 pm
Thank fuck, I've already eaten one of them
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 04, 2017, 09:33:30 pm
Jed or Ward?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 05, 2017, 06:40:53 am
Dunno. The one that tasted like chicken
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 09, 2017, 10:52:40 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

Interesting article. A little tinfoil here and there but looks like decent journalism. Some familiar names and links so I'm not inclined to dismiss it out of hand. Also bodes ill for the US/UK over the short to mid term future. Long term if it's not addressed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 10, 2017, 01:17:33 am
I've been following this lead with some people for a while now.  It's pretty accurate, but there is also, interestingly, a significant amount of Ukrainian and Russian investor money floating around SCL and Cambridge Analytica.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 10:08:00 am
Good to know, will keep an eye on this.

Labour manifesto leaked, accusations it will "take us back to the 1970s". Tory objection seems to be this isn't far enough and we need to get back to the glory days of the 1870s.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2017, 01:29:02 pm
There's also rumours swirling that if Labour lose the election and Corbyn refuses to stand down, that moderate Labour MPs will split and create their own party.

Naturally, this is only being reported in the Tory press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 04:34:48 pm
BBC Reporting "Corbyn car ran over BBC guys foot".

When Hislop called out the bias a week or so ago it was amusing. Seeing stories like this appear makes it a little blatant. It's not rocket science to figure out how close the guy must have been standing for this to occur. I'm waiting for that to spiral in the next couple of days because it's obviously going to be touch and go about amputating the both legs by the time the usual rags have finished with it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 05:49:12 pm
BBC Reporting "Corbyn car ran over BBC guys foot".

When Hislop called out the bias a week or so ago it was amusing. Seeing stories like this appear makes it a little blatant. It's not rocket science to figure out how close the guy must have been standing for this to occur. I'm waiting for that to spiral in the next couple of days because it's obviously going to be touch and go about amputating the both legs by the time the usual rags have finished with it.

Wow, what a shame they don't give his policies such blanket coverage  :roll:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2017, 05:55:33 pm
May ran over the entire nation's foot.  But that's different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 06:14:07 pm
It felt more like a stab in the back to me. Slimy political animal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 06:20:36 pm
Objection, it's closer to a stab in the face. It's not like she's ever pretended to be anything other than despicable.

Hislop bit for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lmqEfvuGg
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 10:08:34 pm
Objection, it's closer to a stab in the face. It's not like she's ever pretended to be anything other than despicable.

I think her snide slap about people thinking of the Tories as the "Nasty Party" was an attempt to position herself on the more acceptable wing of that discussion. Sadly as soon as she got a sniff of power that was straight in the bin.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 am
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 01:08:12 am

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

mutter mutter zeitgeist mutter mutter
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 02:05:53 am
Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I bet the po'buckers ate that shit up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 02:12:35 am
Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I bet the po'buckers ate that shit up.

Like your boy Donnie said - what's the point of having them if you don't use them? Am I right?
Made my gut curdle; she smirked while she said it
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 03:30:54 am
I think she made moral imbecile Michael Fallon do the deed.  You know, the "really Christian" one (when he's not wolfing down free meals from the arms industry).

But anyway, yeah, Corbyn's a peacenik nutter, while May is a sober custodian of the nation.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 12, 2017, 10:06:03 am
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

So the prime minister is now a terrorist with a dirty bomb. The UK government is exactly what they've been warning us about for years. And here was me, the dumbass, thinking they were just making the shit up to freak us out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 11:44:10 am
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I remember that. What's worse is that every other pm, including Thatcher, directed that there should be no retaliatory strikes in the event of a nuclear attack on the UK that resulted in a loss of command and control. Mainly because nuclear weapons are barbaric. Which leaves trident as an utterly pointless waste of resources.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 03:57:36 pm
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I remember that. What's worse is that every other pm, including Thatcher, directed that there should be no retaliatory strikes in the event of a nuclear attack on the UK that resulted in a loss of command and control. Mainly because nuclear weapons are barbaric. Which leaves trident as an utterly pointless waste of resources.

Yes, what is the point of having a weapon which you can't use? [/notTrump]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 04:53:24 pm
As far as I can tell, trident serves the following purposes:

1 - Jobs in largely labour areas.(The main reason orbyn got so much grief from his own party is down to this)
2- Allows the UK to keep feeling important as a "nuclear power"
3 - Err, that's about it.

1 is a little silly as you could easily turn the workforce to other much more productive things at a fraction of the cost.

2 is pants on head retarded as there is nowhere on earth that you could justify deploying a nuclear strike at. Russia, China and North Korea are not awake at night in fear of 3 submarines. I would doubt that ISIS or similar even know about them and wouldn't give two shits about them either, even if they do. So who does it keep in line? Argentina? Pakistan? Iran? The EU? I'm seriously asking, what nation or group are they supposed to deter?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 12, 2017, 04:57:38 pm
B-b-but if we don't have them what's to stop other people using them on us?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 05:20:07 pm
B-b-but if we don't have them what's to stop other people using them on us?

Just the same thing that stops us using them really, you become an instant pariah to the rest of the world who no nation will deal with. Trade stops overnight, your population suffers and starves and a coup is about a week away.

Seriously, the only groups that would value having them are terrorists and even then they're useless without the infrastructure a nation state provides.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 06:36:04 pm
As far as I can tell, trident serves the following purposes:

1 - Jobs in largely labour areas.(The main reason orbyn got so much grief from his own party is down to this)
2- Allows the UK to keep feeling important as a "nuclear power"
3 - Err, that's about it.

1 is a little silly as you could easily turn the workforce to other much more productive things at a fraction of the cost.

2 is pants on head retarded as there is nowhere on earth that you could justify deploying a nuclear strike at. Russia, China and North Korea are not awake at night in fear of 3 submarines. I would doubt that ISIS or similar even know about them and wouldn't give two shits about them either, even if they do. So who does it keep in line? Argentina? Pakistan? Iran? The EU? I'm seriously asking, what nation or group are they supposed to deter?

I think the historic answer to that has been "Anyone the Americans want us to deter", because it isn't as if we really have any genuine level of control over the damn things anyway.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 06:59:21 pm
As I recall, Corbyn made them fire towards the wrong continent because communism.

That's how it went, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 07:15:19 pm
Nhs systems compromised by ransomware.

I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure the it contractor responsible for them is good old capita. It's their style of incompetence.

Being deadly serious, one of the parties should be campaigning to take away all government contracts from capita and g4s. Others too, but those two fuck up everything they touch with amazing consistency.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:16:37 pm
I'm not opposed per se to the UK having nuclear weapons.  However:

1) Its need to be actually independent from the USA.  We cannot trust America will remain our allies for forever.
2) the UK needs to adopt a minimal credibility, second strike nuclear doctrine.  In other words, it retains enough missiles to respond to any largescale WMD attack on the UK by another state, but only uses them in that scenario.  Our current strategic arsenal should be our actual arsenal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:17:25 pm
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 14, 2017, 10:37:43 am
The UK is truly divided. Not only are we not terribly 'united' anyway, being a cobbled together amalgam of four, yes four, nations into a land mass slightly smaller than Oregon but there is increasing exidence of the disturbing  divide that catapulted us into Brexit; the current exemplar of this being our relationship to the Eurovision Song Contest.

YouGov ran a poll on whether UK people wanted to leave the Eurovision Song Contest and the results were telling
Quote
"Broadly speaking, the Brexit dividing line runs through the results. Those groups that were more likely to vote for Brexit were more likely to want to pull out of the Song Contest: 81% of those who intend to vote UKIP, 78% of 65+ year olds and 76% of Leave voters. Likewise, those groups most in favour of staying in Eurovision are those who intend to vote Liberal Democrat (70%), 18-24 year olds (69%) and Remain voters (65%)."


YouGov didn't ask the important underlying question of whether people wanted to leave the European Broadcasting Union but it would have been interesting to know since the EBU is the premier cheerleading group for public service broadcasting in a large part of the non-american world. [Yes Australia competes in Eurovision]. I would suggest that Brexit voters are likely to also be the sort of people who want to see the BBC turned into the Imperial Broadcasting Service, showing film of the coronation on loop, patronising documentaries of the happy, smiling,  faces of our colonial workforce [in their own damn countries, of course] and interminable re-runs of George V at the Delhi Durbar in 1911. Yeah, the thought of the IBS makes my bowel creep, too.

All of which, however interesting, is a pretext for this silly graphic that made me snirk this morning

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/EUROVISION%20tumblr_opwta2veLC1qc7o4to1_500_zpskw8rnamm.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/goblinhill/media/EUROVISION%20tumblr_opwta2veLC1qc7o4to1_500_zpskw8rnamm.jpg.html)

and I can't even complain to my local MP because he is the Master of the Local hunt!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 14, 2017, 11:52:56 am
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.

Workaround found by random blogger. Not seen a single comment from hunt on the farce.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 15, 2017, 02:14:13 pm
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.

Workaround found by random blogger. Not seen a single comment from hunt on the farce.

Hunt has been found and made to comment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39918426

Quote
Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says it is "encouraging" there have not been any fresh attacks.
"We've not seen a second wave of attacks and the level of criminal activity is at the lower end of the range that we had anticipated," he said.

I'm kind of hoping someone launches another attack in the next day or so just to show this clown up. He's got literally no understanding of what occurred, why it occurred or why it might re-occur again in the near future. Small side bet on his family history being at least part ostrich.

What's really baffling is that this could have been spun a dozen different ways to say what you will do to improve the NHS against future problems but he can't even be bothered to do that. I assume the plan is along the lines of pretending that the only way to fix the problems is by shoving various bits of it into private hands.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 06:06:08 am
Government is clueless when it comes to cybersecurity.  Hunt is clueless when it comes to government, so he's twice as useless when it comes to cybersecurity.

Early indicators are North Korea may have something to do with WCry, which would make sense.  Aggressive infection doesn't matter when your country is largely cut off from the world and global economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 16, 2017, 10:38:02 am
There was apparently a fuck up in the code that would make it impossible to claim the funds or decrypt the data even if you were dumb enough to pay. NK would fit the bill there but I still doubt it. The chance of self infection is there and it could impact weapons development which I'm sure Nk would find to be an unacceptable risk.

 Have a hunch it's a non state actor(s) fucking about. That said, the possible level of harm will be played up to put the fear of CYBER into the populace and justify throwing more cash at gchq and similar. Why fix a problem when you can spend far more on detection and workarounds after an issue appears?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 11:32:10 am
The ransomware part of the virus isn't new, a few variants originated in Romania, Ukraine  and Turkey. All they did was modify it slightly and use a Day 1 exploit (as it had been patched on a great many machines). In fact all they really did was take a publicised but recent exploit and apply existing malware... To great effect.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 12:15:45 pm
Which is the worst part.  What if someone competent purchased something from the Equation Group/Shadow Brokers hack?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 12:37:27 pm
Then you could have widespread intrusion on many many systems, that could passively spread without detection, potentially compromising a lot more then this attack. This was loud and quick and invoked a quick reaction, a poorly executed cash grab.

If someone had wanted to make something to give them access to information and control of the critical infrastructure of many countries on a long term basic (similar to how the FBI would have been utilising it), they could have. It's not outside the realms of possibility, that they could have done so already. It validates what Tim Cook was saying when apple refused to create a back door for the FBI, because this is exactly the scenario they described.

The good thing about this attack is that it has inspired a lot of even companies to update their old out of date systems which will close off many of these exploits and result in a safer web.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 16, 2017, 12:57:29 pm
Companies are one thing, institutions are quite another. How long do you think it will take the NHS to move on from XP? The procurement process alone will take months, if not years, regardless of how insecure the system may be in the interim. And that's just one, factor in the job centre systems, Immigration, DVLA, HMRC etc. etc. and you're looking at hundreds of systems at a minimum. Probably thousands if not tens of thousands.

It gets funnier when you start thinking about the total costs of doing this. The upgrade to something more secure is comparably cheap compared to the training costs involved in getting who the fuck knows how many people trained on something that isn't what they've been using for X years. I'd guess the training costs are an order of magnitude larger than the upgrade. Which have their own set of procurement processes which will take months, maybe years....

 Which makes this a clusterfuck of unknown proportions as you get into the details. Whichever government is eventually formed now gets to deal with both the brexit crap and fallout and a huge list of additional unforeseen expenses at home to try and provide a veneer of security. Which will be inevitably compromised and the whole cycle starts up again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 01:13:20 pm
Of course, it would help if anyone applied security patches regularly.  MS has done such a bad job in the past, with its patches breaking Windows and Office functionality that companies and government agencies alike purposefully ignore best practice and don't apply it until they test it themselves (and if anything happens in the meantime, they just cry "advanced persistent threat" and go about their business).  MS did release a critical security patch for this exploit back in March, but clearly a lot of companies did not see fit to apply it.

I did a sort review on WCry for the law firm I do contract work with, and it's a clusterfuck endemic to the IT security industry and government thinking about IT security. There's plenty of blame to go around, and believe me, they all deserve a fair share of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 16, 2017, 01:38:53 pm
Government systems are also (presumably) operating on bespoke software that may or may not work with newer versions of Windows, further complicating system upgrades.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 03:05:12 pm
Indeed, which is why the government had a contract with Microsoft specifically for computer security updates.

Until Hunt cancelled it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 03:16:30 pm
In fairness to MS they released a patch all the way back to XP for this one, first patch for XP in years. But yes, there are a worrying amount of systems running critical infrastructure that are on archaic systems, Or critical systems that only get updates periodically (quarterly or even annually is common enough to see for some big systems)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 16, 2017, 08:00:11 pm
Or critical systems that only get updates periodically (quarterly or even annually is common enough to see for some big systems)

You only need to have been burned by one kamikaze MS update for that to seem a lot more reasonable than it might first sound. Anyone running XP as a daily driver, tho, pretty much deserves to spend their every waking hour staring at a ransomware prompt.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pæs on May 17, 2017, 08:17:06 am
Risky Biz podcast has a good summary of WannaCry news, debunking some myths and collating some coverage.
https://risky.biz/RB455/

I haven't finished the episode yet, but I'm not expecting many inaccuracies from these two.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 12:47:27 am
Tory lead has halved since the publication of their shit-tastic manifesto.

Despite pulling out the big guns (IRA, MI5 surveillance!), Labour only trail the Tories by 9 points now. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 21, 2017, 01:05:02 am
Wait, what? Been out of it for a couple of days, don't tell me the ira are supporting Labour and or hate corbyn too.

I suppose also add corbyn to the long, long list of "other politicians treated worse than idiot".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 01:07:24 am
No, Corbyn is soft on the IRA, soft on defence, so soft that MI5 had to watch him because of NATSHUNAL SECORITIES.  According to the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 21, 2017, 01:15:52 am
Silly me. So "corbyn the ira sympathiser" is the new line, he? Seems like a little late for smears, shouldn't Murdoch have had that in hand months ago?

Apart from this seems to be manifesto nonsense. Leaving aside these are worthless documents whenever they are made as they're universally ignored after taking power, it does show how much of a shitshow this election is. The senile fuck that called it has taken weeks to produce one when it should have been available the day after. No costings from the Tories beyond "we're going to keep the eu rights bits we like and claim we are original". Speaks volumes for what can be expected post brexit crap, and probably before.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 03:28:22 am
The lack of costing is hilarious.  The NHS is going to get "more funding".  It's so fact-free that even the Daily Mail wouldn't allow it as an op-ed.

And I think it's going to have a snowball effect.  When you continually fuck up, despite having all the cards, and keep talking about "strong and stable", even an electorate as dimwitted as the British will notice there is a certain discrepancy between the rhetoric and the facts.  It may not result in a complete loss for the Tories, but anything less than a landslide victory that they were projected at the start of the election campaign is a massive failure on their part.  Even if the Labour Party only sustain their current popularity, May will only have 46 seat majority.  Hardly a mandate from the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2017, 04:09:51 pm
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 22, 2017, 04:31:16 pm
There must be some members of the Conservative camp that are thinking a loss at this election would make a lot of their immediate problems someone else's.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 22, 2017, 05:16:25 pm
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).

I've considered, the same thing, along the lines xaz reasoned. The only simple alternative I can see is sheer arrogance which is possible. If the Tories win with this kind of no effort and constant fuckups it'll be taken as a mandate to do whatever they please.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2017, 02:02:06 am
"Terrorist" bomb blast suspected in Manchester, as a chunk of papers carry corbyn /ira taglines. You could get suspicious here, but it's likely another government fuck up, assuming Isis or related.

Not ruling out gas explosion yet either, because a lot of the infrastructure is old and fucked. There's also been a few big-ish demo jobs around the area which adds to the possibility.

Either way, not what you need in the middle of an election. May needs to pull the crazy racist "send em all back anywhere" shtick to try and pander what's left of the brexit vote. Not helped when a lot of these are pensioners who you've just shat on. Or to be fair, have no solid idea of how you'll be shitting, in what kind of quantities and from what heights.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 23, 2017, 02:06:25 am
Apparently there was just a terrorist attack in England. What convenient timing, just in time for the election. This stinks of a false-flag operation (or maybe not stinks of but at this point it's definitely a possibility).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 23, 2017, 02:07:54 am
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).

I've considered, the same thing, along the lines xaz reasoned. The only simple alternative I can see is sheer arrogance which is possible. If the Tories win with this kind of no effort and constant fuckups it'll be taken as a mandate to do whatever they please.

This is looking paralyzingly familiar.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 07:22:57 am
Looks like I went to sleep just before this terrorist attack happened.

Give me half an hour to have a coffee and hit up my usual suspects
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 07:47:10 am
No claims as of yet...Islamic State supporters are trolling on the usual channels, of course, but IS supporters are going to do that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 23, 2017, 09:39:55 am
So apparently May took a bit of a beating on the Andrew Marr show. I didn't watch it but maybe i'll try and catch up this evening.

News of course overshadowed by the bombing. I wonder if that's gonna give a boost to the Tories. Not exactly coming off as strong or stable right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 23, 2017, 09:51:32 am
That is the most worrying thing, the grandstanding boring old "Hard line against terrorism" that is now obligatory to trot out, is time consuming, it takes effort. I'm more scared of the outcome of a chaotic negotiation process, then in any terror attack.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 01:52:35 pm
Indeed.

ISIS have claimed the attack...but their account is at odds with what the police have said.  It is possible that the police held back infomation, to allow them to sort real claims from the cranks.  And ISIS usually don't claim attacks without some evidence...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2017, 11:48:35 pm
Terror alert status now upgraded to super serial. Bomb appears to be "highly sophisticated" which probably means they got the gear from homebase instead of b&q.

ETA- military deployed to "key sites". Not seen anywhere particular disclosed but that would be an interesting list. Bet I can name at least 5 places, including 2 nuclear sites and 1 oil and gas site where there won't be any or any extra.

Which raises potentially very interesting questions when you talk about the financial aspect of any of these attacks.  Take insurance for instance. How much do you think you need to raise the premiums on somewhere before it makes more commercial sense to shut the place? A little bird told me that the hike to air products in the aftermath of France would have made it "economically unviable" to keep open, if it wasn't already shutting, and they've got a pretty decent safety record. Now look at a shitshow that's had an issue or two and you could easily be talking about a substantial facility or two being on very shaky ground. I would imagine this easily applies to the US and the rest of Europe and similar. The potential for one corporation to force another out of a country with proxy terror wars is probably closer than we'd like to think, assuming it's not already happening. I think it's definitely worth looking at very closely the next time it occurs in a corporate location.


Cain, help me out here, is there a reason beyond the spectacle side of things that make using nail bomb type shit preferable to other methods? I'm thinking you can mix up some nasty gases etc. From what you can get in practically any supermarket yet this doesn't seem to be a thing, thankfully.

On a slightly different note, anyone bothered with the marr interview yet? Worth watching?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 12:44:16 am
Reliability.  Nails go everywhere - everyone gets hurt.  Gases disperse in open areas, where there are likely to be most targets.  Even in enclosed areas, they don't do very well (sarin attacks in Tokyo should have killed hundreds, not six people).  Technical expertise is above and beyond that for normal bomb-making, requires more exotic components likely to be on watch lists, and may be harder to hide on a person as well.  Cost factors in too, nails are cheap.  Don't even actually need nails, just a bunch of scrap metal stripped apart to ensure sharp edges will work fine.

Also, most terrorists are not very imaginative.  When they are...that's when you get Ramzi Yousef, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:04:52 pm
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 24, 2017, 06:15:49 pm
It seems like the Tories have been cutting everything that they possibly can which begs the question... where is the money going?

And if there simply is no money how are the other parties' more optimistic manifestos going to be funded?

edit: In trying to find my own answer to the above questions I have started (trying) to read the party manifestos.   :punchballs:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:25:08 pm
Allegedly it's going to pay off the national debt.

I'll let you look up those actual figures for a laugh.  What it's really going into is tax cuts.

Edit: the Labout and (IIRC) Lib Dem manifestos are both fully costed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 24, 2017, 06:36:52 pm
Yeah the current plan doesn't really seem to be achieving it's stated aim.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on May 24, 2017, 07:11:21 pm
Glad (?) to see the US and UK aren't that different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 24, 2017, 07:54:25 pm
Allegedly it's going to pay off the national debt.

I'll let you look up those actual figures for a laugh.  What it's really going into is tax cuts.

Edit: the Labout and (IIRC) Lib Dem manifestos are both fully costed.

What's even funnier is what's in that debt. The UK is still paying for the hilarious south sea fuckup, for instance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 08:55:30 pm
Also, as the Economist(!) pointed out, Corbyn's own plan would have the UK borrowing less than it currently does, which would (indirectly) help in paying back the national debt.

I mean, if you can't even get The Economist on side, on fiscal policy, as a Tory government...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 24, 2017, 09:49:56 pm
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.

There are other things you can do with your police and Armed forces though, Katie Hopkins just said so:-
Quote
‘We need a final solution,’ British columnist tweets — then deletes — after Manchester bombing
Katie Hopkins of Mail Online later said the tweet was a “typo."
  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 24, 2017, 09:58:57 pm
Also, as the Economist(!) pointed out, Corbyn's own plan would have the UK borrowing less than it currently does, which would (indirectly) help in paying back the national debt.

I mean, if you can't even get The Economist on side, on fiscal policy, as a Tory government...

Well, it's not like anyone's pointed at this government with accusations of competence, is it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 10:21:56 pm
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.

There are other things you can do with your police and Armed forces though, Katie Hopkins just said so:-
Quote
‘We need a final solution,’ British columnist tweets — then deletes — after Manchester bombing
Katie Hopkins of Mail Online later said the tweet was a “typo."
  :horrormirth:

Yes, I saw her comments on the morning.   Fortunately, it seems this time around there is a significant amount of pushback over her comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 26, 2017, 07:01:39 am
Labour only 5 points behind the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 26, 2017, 07:40:22 am
That is while still in a fractured everyone-hates-corbyn state? If that gap closes and they realise there is a real chance of victory what are the odds of the party rallying behind him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 26, 2017, 07:44:50 am
If there's a chance of labour winning, Corbyn will have to be replaced by a suit. No way corporate is going to let someone as hostile as Corbyn look like he's making the big decisions.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 26, 2017, 12:30:48 pm
Well one bright spot today:
Quote
Katie Hopkins sacked: LBC staff broke into ‘massive cheers and applause’ when controversial radio presenter fired

and the Mail online are refusing to comment . . .

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 26, 2017, 07:31:48 pm
It's nice when the Mail refuse to comment on a thing. If this could be encouraged across the set of all possible things I could see myself growing to, if not like, then at least tolerate their existence a little more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 26, 2017, 11:07:53 pm
Well one bright spot today:
Quote
Katie Hopkins sacked: LBC staff broke into ‘massive cheers and applause’ when controversial radio presenter fired

and the Mail online are refusing to comment . . .

When they do, they'll still find a way to relate it to fucking house prices.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2017, 01:47:18 pm
So I've just had a leaflet through for my local conservative candidate which states "If you'd like to discuss and issue contact me on..."

I'll be having fun with this. Suggestions welcome, I've already asked questions about sharks, the lack of manifesto costings being lazy and how to fix my toaster.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 29, 2017, 06:09:44 pm
Ask them if your shelving arrangements in the kitchen are strong and stable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 29, 2017, 07:57:02 pm
Paxman interviews Corbyn and May in 30 minutes.

Post-match edit:

Both performed pretty well - Corbyn got a hammering on his past and May got hammered on policies.

Listening to Theresa May talk makes my brain start wandering in record time though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2017, 11:03:21 pm
Ask them if your shelving arrangements in the kitchen are strong and stable.

Will add it to the list. Multiple phone numbers and emails have never been more fun to use. I've got about 7 different personas on the go. My favourite at the moment in Ahmed the recovering crackhead.  If anyone wants in, PM me. I'm determined to give this one more fun than they really wanted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 01, 2017, 05:15:08 pm
I think I've run the well dry on the candidate. Awkward questions and responses from everything from first past the post to a reliance on the collapse of ukip and the subsequent hope racists prefer her. Will type up highlights if anyone wants a laugh.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 02, 2017, 12:59:10 pm
Tory candidate charged.

In other news, the conservative slogans look to be increasingly written by Murdoch. "Magic money tree" kept getting used and that's the cover image and text on today's sun.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2017, 01:27:43 pm
Well, a magic money tree is the only way to explain how the Tories are going to plug a £750 million deficit in NHS funding.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 02, 2017, 01:29:22 pm
It does seem odd that the Tories' latest strategy seems to be attacking costings when their manifesto was the only (?) one uncosted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2017, 02:43:50 pm
Well, UKIP's is also uncosted, but to be fair, that's because Paul Nuttall lost the data at Hillsborough.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 07, 2017, 02:15:00 pm
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 07, 2017, 02:26:06 pm
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?

If you're actually getting depressed over any shitty tv soap opera, my advice is to seek professional help :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 07, 2017, 02:30:54 pm
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?

If you're actually getting depressed over any shitty tv soap opera, my advice is to seek professional help :lulz:

Fair point.

s/crippling depression/horrormirth and medication
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 08, 2017, 10:19:01 pm
Exit poll suggests hung parliament.

You were right about the reality tv.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 08, 2017, 10:21:30 pm
I always liked the sound of that, "Hung parliament". Unfortunately the reality failed to meet expectation. Zombie Thatcher at the end of a rope would look fucking sweet right about now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2017, 10:31:03 pm
Yup, exit polls show Tories being 12 short of an absolute majority.  However, it would require a Labour-SNP-Lib Dem and Green Party or Plaid Crymu pact to ensure more votes than the Tories would have under those projections.

On the plus side, hopefully the Tory backbenchers will ritually disembowel May for ruining their majority.  At the very least, history will judge her as the PM who decided to unnecessarily lead the UK into EU negotiations with a hung parliament.  That judgement will likely be as harsh as the one Cameron will have, when people start looking back to determine who fucked this all up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2017, 10:39:17 pm
And meanwhile the clock continues to tick. Strong and stable results this evening. An outright loss would have been better for her historically, rejected outright by the populace would have in a way decisevely got her off the hook instead of this halfhearted effort.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 11:26:38 am
Clegg gone, Salmond gone, May talking coalition with DUP.

Current argument seems to be about who rings the EU to delay negotiations till the 3rd of never.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 12:05:41 pm
I thought the DUP previously said that May would have to stand down?

This is ridiculous.  PM says "I need mandate to go to Europe", proceeds to piss away a 20 point lead and has to enter into a power sharing arrangement with another party to avoid rule by minority government, but still refuses to step down.  By any metric, while the Labour Party didn't win the election the Tories certainly lost.

The backbenchers are going to murder her.  It'll only take a few Tory rebels to bring this house of cards crashing down, and after the last month, I suspect there is more than a few who want May gone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 12:37:26 pm
It gets funnier, Murdoch reported to be "fucking livid" and stormed out of an election party after the vote numbers came in.

Various people in all parties calling for may to go. 50/50 there, she's deluded enough to take this as a win.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 12:58:02 pm
Well, given The Sun broke electoral law with its most recent story about Corbyn "preaching to members of Al-Muhajiroun" (spoiler alert: he didn't), Murdoch might have a few more reasons to be pissed in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 01:05:44 pm
In the meantime, I've been detailing the cock-ups by the security services for the (other) day job and...wow, they really cocked it up with the London Bridge attacks.

This NY Times article is as good as any. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/world/europe/london-assailants-terrorism-warning-signs-fbi.html?_r=2&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

Highlights:

- Members of Al-Muhajiroun, who are linked to 50% of terrorist attacks in the UK and are a banned group besides
- Attacked a government counter-radicalisation advisor in the street, calling him an apostate (specific term used popular with ISIS)
- Said advisor identified him as a Al-Muhajiroun member and "radicalised political Islamist"
- Was reported to the police for unfurling an ISIS flag in a London park
- footage of the police dispersing him and his friends for that ended up on the C4 documentary "The Jihadis Next Door"
- Picked up in Italy travelling with only a small backpack and a bunch of ISIS propaganda, heading to Istanbul
- told security guard he was going to be a terrorist
- was reported to British authorities by Italians
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:20:15 pm
Well, given The Sun broke electoral law with its most recent story about Corbyn "preaching to members of Al-Muhajiroun" (spoiler alert: he didn't), Murdoch might have a few more reasons to be pissed in the coming weeks.

Gods, I hope so. If there's a human that deserves a little suffering and personal embarrassment it's Murdoch.

On the DUP coalition guide, I'm guessing they've got their price figured out already - £400 million or so. From the not so distant fuel fuckup. Quick fix for a big bill right in front of them and may's team of top negotiators will be happy to pay it. What's 400 million when you're going to be killed over giving away untold billions in the next 18 months or so?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 01:33:11 pm
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:36:44 pm
In the meantime, I've been detailing the cock-ups by the security services for the (other) day job and...wow, they really cocked it up with the London Bridge attacks.

This NY Times article is as good as any. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/world/europe/london-assailants-terrorism-warning-signs-fbi.html?_r=2&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

Highlights:

- Members of Al-Muhajiroun, who are linked to 50% of terrorist attacks in the UK and are a banned group besides
- Attacked a government counter-radicalisation advisor in the street, calling him an apostate (specific term used popular with ISIS)
- Said advisor identified him as a Al-Muhajiroun member and "radicalised political Islamist"
- Was reported to the police for unfurling an ISIS flag in a London park
- footage of the police dispersing him and his friends for that ended up on the C4 documentary "The Jihadis Next Door"
- Picked up in Italy travelling with only a small backpack and a bunch of ISIS propaganda, heading to Istanbul
- told security guard he was going to be a terrorist
- was reported to British authorities by Italians

If only there was some kind of warning signs that this could happen. When the clues are this obtuse, what can you do?

Seriously, if these aren't flags that get you seriously watched, what is?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:41:32 pm
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.

Add in what sf may do if they take the deal and it gets better. What better excuse to end absenting your seats than just to oppose them on a vote by vote basis? I think ni came in at 10/7 so it's close enough to be a spite veto, particularly after your allies have just had a whole thing about the ira.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 01:56:49 pm
SF wont take up their seats, that would give legitimacy to English Rule, and recognising the queen, which they still refute. However I bet the offer of a SNP, labour lib dem sf schizolition would have been tempting.

They refused to for the Brexit vote in Parliament and that would have been an even better opportunity.

However having the DUP having any say in matters in the UK... Would have been better off with the schizolition.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 01:58:48 pm
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.

Add in what sf may do if they take the deal and it gets better. What better excuse to end absenting your seats than just to oppose them on a vote by vote basis? I think ni came in at 10/7 so it's close enough to be a spite veto, particularly after your allies have just had a whole thing about the ira.

SF have said there's "A snowball's chance in hell" of them giving up absenteeism.

One can dream though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 02:05:53 pm
Waterford Whispers news on the ball again:
Tories To Make Deal With DUP After Satan Pulls Out (http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/06/09/tories-to-make-deal-with-dup-after-satan-pulls-out/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 02:20:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/theresa-may-reaches-deal-with-dup-to-form-government-after-shock-election-result-northern-ireland?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Quote
The DUP’s ‘price’ for propping up a new Conservative government will include a promise that there would be no post-Brexit special status for Northern Ireland, the party’s leader in Westminster has confirmed.
Nigel Dodds, re-elected as North Belfast MP, said that among their preconditions would be an insistence that there was no separate deal that would effectively keep the region with one foot still inside the EU
The DUP fears that special status after Brexit – a key demand of Sinn Féin – would de-couple Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK.

Decades of the peace process, thrown away like that. This is were it starts getting really ugly. If a border gets put in, expect a return to violence.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 04:51:20 pm
SF unscheduled press conference happening... soon?

Biggest shock of the election or simply power-share details?

(please note I know very little about the politics of NI so apologies in advance for any stupidity)


EDIT: Nope
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 06:26:49 pm
Quote
However, those rarely seen on the campaign trail, including Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel and Liam Fox, could be out, says BBC political correspondent Eleanor Garnier.

Comebacks from Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and prominent leave campaigner Dominic Raab were being floated, she adds.

Dinosaur government, with a side serving of viciousness, coming soon.  If you thought May was dictatorial and and authoritarian, you've not seen anything yet.  She's going to double down on all her worst tendencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 07:34:26 pm
Quote
However, those rarely seen on the campaign trail, including Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel and Liam Fox, could be out, says BBC political correspondent Eleanor Garnier.

Comebacks from Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and prominent leave campaigner Dominic Raab were being floated, she adds.

Dinosaur government, with a side serving of viciousness, coming soon.  If you thought May was dictatorial and and authoritarian, you've not seen anything yet.  She's going to double down on all her worst tendencies.

Oh Ho Ho, ibs is back? Iain "I'm crying because my policies are obviously killing people" bastard-Smith?

Add in gove ND raab and it's a great echo chamber with no understanding of Ireland or the eu.

"No deal is best deal" coming soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 10:08:23 pm
Well, it's all rumours for now.  You know May.  Why state something publically when she can consult with, like, 3 people in secret and not let anyone else know what the fuck is going on?

I don't see this Parliament lasting more than a year.  Between the Tory backbenchers smelling weakness and some very high profile Tory MPs barely scraping through to a victory, I can see lots of incentives to overthrow the PM, and not a lot of good reasons for leaving her in place.  The austerity Tories are going to bitch about sending pork to NI, the liberal Tories are already freaking out at the prospect of working with the DUP at all...and then we have to remember that Tory succession basically runs off of successful regicide.  The Tory front bench is incredibly weak, anyone with half a brain and a talent for vindictiveness is going to think their time has come, and this is their one chance to seize power.

Of course, this would all be terribly amusing if we were not navigating the biggest constitutional crisis since the formation of the United Kingdom.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 11:07:44 pm
I must say, the chances of Gove alone fucking things up is pretty high. When you factor in the whole party it's just a matter of time until someone sticks the knife in. There's plenty of people involved that can't/wont negotiate and will see any reasonable concessions to the EU as weakness so it really is inevitable. Abandoning negotiations halfway through for another election and starting again from scratch is quite likely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 12:21:30 am
To be fair, May did warn us this election could lead of a coalition of chaos propped up by terrorist sympathizers

 :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 12:55:21 am
Oh great.

Sinn Fein say the DUP being part of government contravenes the Good Friday Agreement.  And they're actually probably right.  Especially with the Stormont Assembly's breakdown of the power-sharing arrangement.  This puts the Tories unequivocally on the side of the unionists, when it promised under the agreement to remain impartial between unionists and republicans.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 10, 2017, 01:14:28 am
Oh, that's nicely done. And given the ignorance of all involved it probably won't be the last breach either.

The headlines, particularly the Murdoch ones, are not kind.   And Diana nonsense, because UK press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 10, 2017, 04:44:12 pm
May's two top aides gone taking all the blame they can. And would you believe one used to work for sky news as a journalist? Of course you would, it happens to be true. Will be fun to see how the Sunday rags spin that as once again  an ex Murdoch pr guru is shown the door. If her own party doesn't get her the vindictive old Australian will make any negotiations a ballache.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 04:53:38 pm
Apparently the departure was a sop to the Party who demanded that at least someone's head roll over the disastrous election campaign.

Meanwhile, we wont have a Cabinet announcement until Monday.  Why?  Our glorious Unionist overlords can't work on Sundays - too busy praying for god to smite homosexuals, abortionists and papists.  In other NI related news, marching season is almost upon us, which I'm sure won't go horribly wrong as a newly empowered DUP seek to flex their muscles and an already angry Sinn Fein become increasingly incensed.

I actually feel pretty sorry for Ruth Davidson right about now.  Her work in Scotland saved May's government from further defeats, and how is she rewarded for her effort?  With May creating a coalition with a party who think she's a sinner and abomination.  She's already ruled out splitting the Scottish Conservatives from the Tory Party, but if she did I don't think anyone would blame her right now.

I also feel kinda sorry for Alistair Campbell and Jonathan Powell.  For their many failings, they poured so much hard work into Northern Ireland, and they really did give a fuck about finding a solution and stopping the fighting.  And they've kept engaged in the process over the years, even out of government.  Watching May piss it all away for a lame duck Parliament must be infuriating.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 11, 2017, 11:39:09 pm
Falls road is gonna be total gigglefest this year :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 11, 2017, 11:59:10 pm
SF are right in that a rule in westminster (should a government fail to be formed in NI) means indirect rule by the DUP which contravenes the good friday agreement and powersharing. However that is only because of their policy of Absenteeism. Considering we have SF in the Republic too, I unfortunatly cant blame the DUP for entering a partnership they are allowed to do.

The absenteeism leads to a bit of an impass; If SF were to have equal representation, they would need to take up their seats and the tories would have to take both parties in, such a goverment would likely last about a day before the countries are going to the polls again. The alternative is the rainbow party of SF putting Corbyn in power, in which case everyone gets what they want:
Votes on independence in Scottland and Northern Ireland, nuclear disarmerment, whatever the hell the lib dems want and of course, another referrendum on brexit to potentially hault that problem.

I don't envy the UK right now, but at the very least it might raise awareness of Northern Ireland, and for once its the DUP getting accused of terrorism from their masters which is hilarous.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 12, 2017, 07:34:34 am
whatever the hell the lib dems want

Dank Tim Farron memes, and Tim Farron for Minister of Banter:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/19/article-2039217-0DF8251200000578-949_468x286.jpg)

https://www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/exploring-what-the-hell-tim-farron-meant-when-he-said-smell-my-spaniel-123419
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 12, 2017, 05:18:00 pm
New yorker fucking slaying it  (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn) :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2017, 11:39:40 pm
New yorker fucking slaying it  (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn) :lulz:

This just made my bad day good again.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 13, 2017, 05:27:32 pm
Major and Irish pm now also saying this will bugger up peace process if a deal is done with dup.

Rumors that the main dup demand is that it keeps getting the same money that it was getting when in the eu, apparently around 350 million/year. If that's true it's hilarious, if it's not then whatever deal is done will be using that as a benchmark, which will also be hilarious as one of the loons will leak the details.

Queens speech delayed until deal is done, as everyone involved is fucking clueless.

Right wing rags accusing junker and the eu of this whole mess, apparently poor may was tricked by nasty Euro types. Eu sticking boot in suggesting that all the delays may result in no deal due to no time.

In short, incompetence rules the foreseeable future.

Oh and "no climate change" gove is back and in charge of environment, because that's what was good enough for America so it's good enough here too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2017, 06:00:17 pm
The tabloids are also running scaremongering rumours that Sinn Fein are coming to London to take up their seats in Parliament and put Corbyn into power.

I'm pretty sure that, after a week of constantly pointing out that a NI party joining government would destroy the peace process, the last thing SF would do is do exactly the same.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 13, 2017, 06:56:09 pm
SF are perfectly happy now, all they need to do is say very little and every move the DUP make will make them look better. They aren't interested in putting Corbyn in power unless it guarantees them a United Ireland, which could actually be less in the forefront of everyone’s mind if they were to take up their seats, they would look weak, pleading for something that shouldn’t need to be asked for.

In this position, they stand to gain the most, look at the DUP, they expect post Brexit they will get the same funding, most of the north is wondering that. It only takes the loyalist agricultural community (already pissed off over the co-op meat issue), who are heavily propped up by the EU to lose faith that England will protect their interests and a vote on re-joining the Republic will start seeming like an eventuality.

I'll be honest here, I would love to see a United Ireland within my lifetime. I know that seems stupid considering its a money pit, that its saddled with fringe nationalist lunatics on both sides of the scale, I think it’s the only road to lasting peace, and for yourselves over in the UK, these bizarre purgatorial situations are less likely to happen

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2017, 07:23:51 pm
You can accuse Gerry Adams of many things, but stupidity would not be the first thing that comes to mind.  He'll play it smart, with the longterm goal in mind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2017, 01:59:54 pm
No government for at least another week, according to latest reports.  But you know, strong and stable and all that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 14, 2017, 03:12:28 pm
That was their old motto, before the DUP, now its "turning and turning in widening gyre, The centre cannot hold"

I wonder is it that the DUP think they can make a list of demands before they form a government.
What happens if no one party can get the majority even through negotiating with another party, does it go up for election again?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2017, 03:37:35 pm
Minority government until someone makes a deal or May is topped by her own backbenchers and/or a vote of no confidence.

I think going to MPs to ask for another election at this stage would be moving well beyond "history repeating itself as farce" and into "history repeating itself as some kind of slapstick toilet humour" territory.  MPs may not even agree to it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2017, 07:53:03 pm
Farron stepping down as leader of lib dems.

Didn't expect that one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2017, 11:59:49 pm
Sf are coming over for a word about the dup deal with may.
 :lulz:
I am praying they go for full on ski mask/balaclava/classic look.

Just the idea of it has me laughing far more than is probably healthy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 01:21:16 am
Well, I mean, PMQs is going to look like this, so I say let them fit in:

(http://i.imgur.com/kyVgUuM.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 03:12:27 pm
In addition to being actually terrible, the Grenfall Tower fire is making May even less popular.  That one of her own aide's sat on a report about fire safety for 4 years, and that austerity cuts meant the local council couldn't afford to refurb the fire escapes properly, in addition to her own robotic performance at the scene, make me feel like this may have a disproportionate impact politically.

That there is going to be a public inquiry means a backlash is all but inevitable.  Public inquiry = already an admission of fault.

In other news, May, who keeps promising us she will get the best deal for the UK from the EU, is struggling to close a deal with a party of provincial religious fundamentalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 15, 2017, 05:23:42 pm
The state of the dup negotiations are very telling for just how bad the eu ones will get. When you can't sweeten less than a dozen mps you've got no chance of getting a deal you want from 20+ countries with a united position.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 06:34:14 pm
Speaking of which...first round of Brexit talks begin on Monday.  The DUP have said just in the past hour that there is still no deadline on a deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2017, 01:27:08 pm
May refuses to meet residents affected by fire due to "security concerns" which apparently didn't apply or concern the queen who appeared to shake hands and nod.

The fire in general beyond being horrible will likely keep claiming victims. The start of the who knew what and when has begun in earnest and those implicated so far seem to have the same reasoning of "no action because too expensive". So it looks like we have another incident where the costs for prevention are likely to be a pittance compared to the costs of fixing one fuckup. From the state and extent of the damage, I assume the building will eventually be demolished as refurb costs would be beyond the pale. That will cost a couple of quid and no small amount of heartache.

And then there's the cladding issue which has the potential to unravel and drag in a whole other list of bodies who may be culpable to a degree. Also massive potential cost implications across the UK should something be at fault with install/design practices as the shit is everywhere.

Can't help but think that a bit of asbestos here and there would have saved a lot of lives. From the age of it, it probably would have been built it in there and then removed in the last 20 years or so.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 12:49:34 am
First political casualty from the fire looking to be barwell, former housing minister, recently tarted about as may's "deputy pm". A no comment and long silent walk from cameras was telling. Literally no comment, nothing. Just the look of a man who's been told he's not got long left and to expect a bad time.

Bets on whether he takes may with him as her appearances have been less than productive. Blair or similar ilk would at least have the pr nuances down at this point: go forth and get publicly nailed to the cross by residents for a while. May's lack of ability to withstand this on a personal or political level will have serious consequences from this. Might even prompt a leadership challenge.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2017, 01:05:28 am
Apparently the only reason May's still PM is that the Tories fear Gove or Johnson more than her.  I mean literally, they'd toss her overboard with a moment's notice if they thought they had credible alternatives.  They hate her, but they fear the alternatives more.

Politically, this means the Party has decided to go down with the Good Ship May.  Whatever happens, whoever fucks up, someone will take the fall for May, to avert any potential leadership challenge.  That is, unless, someone on the backbenches fancies their chances...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:13:20 am
Apparently the only reason May's still PM is that the Tories fear Gove or Johnson more than her.  I mean literally, they'd toss her overboard with a moment's notice if they thought they had credible alternatives.  They hate her, but they fear the alternatives more.

Politically, this means the Party has decided to go down with the Good Ship May.  Whatever happens, whoever fucks up, someone will take the fall for May, to avert any potential leadership challenge.  That is, unless, someone on the backbenches fancies their chances...

That's what I was thinking. I wouldn't put it past a random tarquin to appear and decide that because his boarding school chum errrolia futheringfulton-blensop got a job doing the pr thing to chance their hand. And once one tries it it's chum in the water. Hell, I wouldn't put it past Rudd to have a stab once she's a bit further past the recent bereavement. Trying your hand now when a few contenders are already weak makes sense.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2017, 01:14:49 am
Yeah, but who wants to inherit Brexit and the DUP coalition?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:19:42 am
I know that's a joke but I'd bet gove can't walk in public at the thought of it, which is where I'm concerned this could end up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:33:32 am
I mean seriously,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

Look at may in that interview. That's a woman who's not getting any sleep. And it's that noticable, it's going to get remarked upon. Once you've got the "doesn't she look tired" line out, the rest is inevitable. Add in how terrible the interview was (Rambling, non-answers to questions, not even evasive just outright answering a totally different question) and I'd say a leadership challenge isn't in the realms of madness.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 19, 2017, 09:35:29 am
EU negotiations start today.

The EU is worried that the Tories will crumble under the pressure (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/19/eu-leaders-fear-that-fragile-state-of-tories-will-lead-to-brutal-brexit) of the negotiations and leave without a deal:

Quote
European leaders fear that Theresa May’s government is too fragile to negotiate viable terms on which to leave the union, meaning the discussions that officially begin on Monday could end in a “brutal Brexit” – under which talks collapse without any deal.

As officials began gathering in Brussels on Sunday night, the long-awaited start of negotiations was overshadowed by political chaos back in Westminster, where chancellor Philip Hammond warned that failing to strike a deal would be “a very, very bad outcome”.

The EU side fears that, in reality, the British government will struggle to maintain any position without falling apart in the coming months, because, without support from the Democratic Unionist party, May’s negotiating hand is limited. There are also concerns that any DUP backing to give May a majority in the House of Commons would come with strings attached.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 21, 2017, 05:08:36 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-40347632

DUP trying to extort 2 Billion to prop up government. This probably comes as a surprise to many in the UK unfamiliar with the DUP, we've had to put up with these morons for years.

The next step is the Tories refuse and the DUP accuse the Tories of not supporting the people of Northern Ireland and treating unionists as second class citizens, if not going full idiocy and accusing the Tories of being disgusting Catholic Taigs undermining the Empire.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 21, 2017, 05:12:56 pm
 :lulz:

What I find really funny about this is that I do follow NI politics enough to know that the DUP are morons.  But right now, the Tories are failing to negotiate with them.  Think about what this means for Brexit, when we'll be negotiating with the best and brightest of 26 nations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 21, 2017, 05:18:11 pm
UK fails to Negotiate with itself, delays negotiation with remaining 26 nations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2017, 07:36:40 pm
Hs2 seems to have gotten a quiet nod as well. So along with an unknown brexit bill gods know how many billions that will end up costing for an irrelevant return.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:34:28 am
Every single tested building in the UK so far has failed the cladding fire tests they have been put through.

Meanwhile, still no government.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:38:45 am
Every single tested building in the UK so far has failed the cladding fire tests they have been put through.

Meanwhile, still no government.

So we'll just wait while the free market makes your buildings not be deathtraps, then?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:43:10 am
Pretty much.  I mean, I hope you weren't expecting the councils to pay for them to be made safe.   :lulz:  Local authorities are so cash-starved even Tory councils are protesting government spending cuts.

Now, even without a government I'd like to think most of Parliament would probably agree having entire buildings be fire-based deathtraps probably isn't great.  But...well, there's only room on the government agenda for Brexit.

So we'll just have to hope there's no fires between now and March 2019.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:44:05 am
Pretty much.  I mean, I hope you weren't expecting the councils to pay for them to be made safe.   :lulz:  Local authorities are so cash-starved even Tory councils are protesting government spending cuts.

Now, even without a government I'd like to think most of Parliament would probably agree having entire buildings be fire-based deathtraps probably isn't great.  But...well, there's only room on the government agenda for Brexit.

So we'll just have to hope there's no fires between now and March 2019.

I wonder how we got here?

I mean, besides the whole "left devouring itself" thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:49:45 am
Only listening to poor people when they bash the EU and immigrants.  Poor people, complaining that their building is a deathtrap?  Pffft, what do they know.  Poor people, complaining about the EU?  Clearly geniuses in touch with the country's true feelings. 

We've pretty much mastered a political system where if you don't have money you only get heard when your opinions flatter Fleet Street Barons or the politicians who fellate them.  If you dare complain about actual issues with a real impact, you'll be ignored and left to die.

Incidentally, Labour is 46 to Tories 41 in national polls right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:58:33 am
Only listening to poor people when they bash the EU and immigrants.  Poor people, complaining that their building is a deathtrap?  Pffft, what do they know.  Poor people, complaining about the EU?  Clearly geniuses in touch with the country's true feelings. 

We've pretty much mastered a political system where if you don't have money you only get heard when your opinions flatter Fleet Street Barons or the politicians who fellate them.  If you dare complain about actual issues with a real impact, you'll be ignored and left to die.

Incidentally, Labour is 46 to Tories 41 in national polls right now.

Where were they in the polls at the time of the election?  I've been noticing that the left is vocal as hell in polls, etc, but don't actually vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 04:07:41 am
It was 39-42 to the Tories, with several close calls in key voting districts.  The UK's gerrymandered too...not to the extent the US is, but the actual polling figures show that the gap between Labour and the Tories is only a few thousand votes, over the entire country. 

And you have to remember, when the election started, the Tories had a 20 point lead. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 04:34:46 am
It was 39-42 to the Tories, with several close calls in key voting districts.  The UK's gerrymandered too...not to the extent the US is, but the actual polling figures show that the gap between Labour and the Tories is only a few thousand votes, over the entire country. 

And you have to remember, when the election started, the Tories had a 20 point lead.

Yeah, and I can see how they pissed it away.  Why do they let Theresa May speak in public?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 04:49:21 am
Too Strong And Stable for the public to handle.  But truthfully, she's basically a control freak.  So she didn't trust anyone outside her small circle of sycophants with anything, and, surprise surprise...

Supposedly Tory rebels are considering the Chancellor as a potential replacement for May, which isn't entirely terrible.  Hammond has all the charisma of a dead squid (so roughly May's equal), but he's actually not insane and competent, in a mildly technocratic fashion.  He's also surprisingly realistic on Brexit, for someone who is still in the Cabinet. 

Personally, I'd like to see a Tory Party run by Dominic Grieve.  It would mean potentially turning over the Intelligence and Security Committee to some lunatic, but otherwise, he's probably the best hope the Tories have right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 26, 2017, 02:52:08 pm
We have Government!  :banana:


But it's the Tories propped up by DUP  :sadbanana:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 26, 2017, 04:06:13 pm
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 01:51:28 am
Cabinet now arguing publicly about brexit. Hammond taking digs at Boris for being a tit. Smells like leadership challenge jockeying.

Headline in the hell is "beyond satire". Possibly the most factual statement ever published if you only look at those two words and not the associated story.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2017, 02:13:02 am
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 06:20:15 am
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE)

On the surface it seems innocuous enough but it's when yelled at catholics while you're stomping their face to keep time that it really comes into it's own. I'd advise any tourist visiting our fine nation to whistle this upon entering any pub. You'll either be bought a free drink or killed to death depending on the pub  :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on June 28, 2017, 08:09:51 am
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE)

On the surface it seems innocuous enough but it's when yelled at catholics while you're stomping their face to keep time that it really comes into it's own. I'd advise any tourist visiting our fine nation to whistle this upon entering any pub. You'll either be bought a free drink or killed to death depending on the pub  :evil:

I work with an old-school Ulster lass. They are interesting, tough folk. I'm only scared of two people, the missus and the Ulster girl.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:43:57 am
As Chancellor, Hammond knows that no deal is, except in ludicrous exploitative circumstances invented in the heads of feverish UKIP members, worse than a deal with the EU.

And I see our "internal ID cards for EU members" will not go down well.  As I'm sure you all remember, the UK argued strongly against the implementation of an EU-wide system of ID.  Of course, there's nothing to stop the UK from doing so, but putting it out like that almost seems like it was designed to raise hackles and play to the home crowd.  If you really want IDs, make a vague mention to a system of registration in the deal, then introduce the legislation once the ink is dry.

Not that I like the idea itself.  I had to carry my ID papers everywhere I went in Switzerland, and I didn't like that.  But the Swiss authorities are quite a cut above the UK ones, and the Swiss leadership hadn't been whipping up xenophobia against legal foreign workers in the way we do here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:46:34 am
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:52:57 am
Times cartoon today:

(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F54300d48-5b6e-11e7-8b02-b735a4dd8be3.jpg?crop=2711%2C1807%2C615%2C205&resize=1370)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 12:34:45 pm
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.

Minitrue was sticking at 17 for the first day and (more than)17 for about the next two iirc. This was well past the point where it was common knowledge that there were at least 70 bodies lying on a slab somewhere. Huffpo mentioned that between 450-500 would require rehomed. Given that more than most of this number had burned to death, I wouldn't think that would have been a pressing concern.

Any word on the numbers yet or are we still sticking to the official - as many as two people with slightly singed eyebrows - line?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 12:44:57 pm
79 seems to be the number the press is going with, but I've heard reports of up to 150 dead.

I've noticed since Lammy spoke up some outlets are now writing "at least 79" dead.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 01:33:46 pm
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.

Well I can give a few reasons based on my dealings with various councils.

The first would be some bollocks like "value engineering" which is a fancy way of saying use a crappier product instead of one that actually meets the spec. Typically a Bill of quantities from a council demands very particular products from certain suppliers but tenderers are "invited to make alternative proposals" which usually means "Offer us something that saves time or money, preferably both". The muppets assessing the bids then rate them. 80%+ of the total bid score is usually down to cost. Less than 10% normally on H+S, the remainder on proving you're not about to go bang before the work is done.

What this leads to is something like:
-Council insists material must be X, which has (Safety feature, like say flame retardant)
-Contractors spec X, and also spec Y which is cheaper by a country mile.
-Council compares the prices of various Y's and nominates the cheapest contractor.
-Cheap contractor turns up with crappy materials and gets on with job. No real questions asked.
-If shit ever goes wrong, it's not on the contractors toes, as the council agreed to the change in material spec.

Needless to say, Austerity is a factor in these kind of bad decisions. A council just sees an easy way to save £X on a job, why think more of it?


Another strong possibility is a tool in a building control department at some council, somewhere OK'd the first use of it as being close enough. That's taken as a precedent and the next time any objections are raised, they go back to that guy. That guy now can't change his mind as it's already been done and it would cost him his job. So he approves the next. Precedent is now the standard. And now it's everywhere.


Bribery of a council employee to accept alternative spec and award contract on that basis is 50/50. Can't speculate to much there without seeing the original work spec. It happens too routinely anyway to be much of a factor overall.


An outside possibility is that the contractors just used alternative materials without telling anyone or discussing it. I think this unlikely for a few reasons but it's not in the realms of the impossible. Incredibly stupid, requires committing fraud and opening the company/you personally up to all sorts of legal ramifications but not impossible.


This isn't a whodunit for the ages, the list of possible suspects is laughably short and must have a relatively lengthy paper trail by the nature of the projects. It's either a council gremlin, building control monkey or the contractor who have severely fucked up. This is pitifully easy to investigate and determine blame, just look at the winning tender documentation, contract award and paper trail. If I had access to these, I could accurately point a finger at the culprit in probably less than half an hour. Then it becomes a discussion about who authorised what and were they instructed to do so, etc. But again, there will be an easy, obvious paper trail.


I would also note that no-one is being publicly hung out to dry over this yet. That screams council to me as if it was the contractors fault/error/fuckup their names would be all over the press with taglines like "MURDERERS". Mainly as there would be someone at the council saying "told you so, let's fuck them". This hasn't occurred so it does imply the responsibility will be with the council for accepting a change in spec or putting out a bad spec to begin with. 



What I would be marginally more concerned about right now is a radicalised or unstable guy realising that he doesn't even have to rent a van or buy a knife anymore. A packet of matches is all that's needed. That's a significantly lower barrier to entry than making a bomb or renting a van.


As for the total # dead, it's impossible to say for certain without cleaning out the building. You can account for residents but guests and visitors are a total unknown and identification a touch tricky. It'll be a while before an official total is given but I wouldn't be surprised at 200+.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 02:18:41 pm
What I would be marginally more concerned about right now is a radicalised or unstable guy realising that he doesn't even have to rent a van or buy a knife anymore. A packet of matches is all that's needed. That's a significantly lower barrier to entry than making a bomb or renting a van.

Been patiently awaiting Great Fire of London II since I first heard it was the cladding. One might also take into consideration the prime motivator for these renovations in the first place, ie. cosmetic - important people in expensive buildings don't want tatty council housing spoiling their view and messing with their property valuations. Maybe safe materials are a bit uglier and hence the deciding factor?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:23:06 pm
The appearance is indistinguishable, the cost will be the factor. Bet on it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:41:06 pm
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:45:05 pm
The appearance is indistinguishable, the cost will be the factor. Bet on it.

It seems the cladding was polyethylene sandwiched between aluminium sheets - any higher rated cladding is likely to differ in the core material rather than the aluminium.

The testing that this cladding is likely to have gone through will be either direct or indirect exposure to flame (i.e. torch the fucker or set something on fire near the fucker). It's possible that the cladding as-is will have performed well on these tests - only once the protective aluminium was pierced (as it was fitted to the building possibly) and the completely flammable core exposed did it prove to be a hazard.

It looks like the panels in question, Reynobond PE, were actually tested to ASTM E84 which is more of an American standard than a European/British one to my knowledge.

The manufacturer claims that both the PE and the FR versions of their composite cladding achieves a class A - based off this it sounds like it could be slightly harder to pin the blame on someone - choosing a cheaper cladding is a no-brainer if they both appear to meet the same specification.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:48:00 pm
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on June 28, 2017, 07:47:06 pm
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.

I doubt there will ever be an accurate death toll
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 01:04:08 am
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.

I can think of a few likely names. None are cheap.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 01:18:21 pm
120+ tests on cladding to date, 100% failure rate.

That's almost impressive.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2017, 01:54:12 pm
Yup. You see what I mean about this being allowed by someone.  You don't just get this failure rate through chance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 02:02:19 pm
Which makes the big question: "where was it first used?"

Again, very limited list of responsible people to sift through. With this failure rate I'm leaning more to building control.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 29, 2017, 05:12:06 pm
idk what you guys are so worried about. the market will sort this all out. dead tenants don't pay rent, it's bad for business.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 29, 2017, 10:18:41 pm
Ehm, so what is happening with the 120+ buildings with the fire hazard, are people being put into temporary accomidation or is anything else being done?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2017, 10:22:30 pm
Ehm, so what is happening with the 120+ buildings with the fire hazard, are people being put into temporary accomidation or is anything else being done?

They're hoping a fire doesn't happen while they contract firms to rip it out.

In some cases, moving residents would be unfeasible, because some of the buildings with cladding aren't just flats, but residential nursing homes and similar.  But only in some.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2017, 12:41:29 pm
Tender docs show cladding spec changed to save 300k. 149 tests done, still 100% failure.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 03:56:44 am
I've managed to convince my company to carry out tests on our properties out of our own pockets, rather than wait for the council.  No word on when it is starting, but I won't be surprised when they all fail.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 01, 2017, 10:00:14 am
I think we may as well scrap the tests at this point and replace all the cladding cross country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 07:55:09 pm
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 01, 2017, 08:46:19 pm
Sell the DUP? Their shares must have gone through the roof. Wouldn't surprise me if you could recoup 3 or 4 billion right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 01, 2017, 10:33:58 pm
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.

That is going to backfire badly in the long run.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 01, 2017, 10:40:09 pm
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.

That is going to backfire badly in the long run.

Trying to think of a current politician in the USA or the UK that is possible of thinking of events after supper.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 11:13:29 pm
Short-termism is going to kill us all, one fine day.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 02, 2017, 02:57:33 am
Short-termism is going to kill us all, one fine day.

Newsfeed.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 07:45:50 am
It's the inherent flaw of democracy. Doesn't matter if you vote right or left, the government only works on a 5 year time frame.

No point putting in place long-term reform or programs if you cold be voted out in 5 years. They just focus on lining their own pockets until the people figure it out and vote in the other side in the mistaken belief the will be somehow different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 02, 2017, 09:16:37 am
Gove is planning on pulling the UK out of the common fisheries act to "take back UK waters for UK fishermen". This same insane promise was pushed by UKIP so I really didn't think anyone would take it seriously, the bottom line is that act allowed the UK access to an area streching up towards Iceland, down to Spain and up past Norway and vice versa, European countries in UK water.

While technically it means that the UK will have exclusive fishing rights to it's own area, where previously a lot was given away to other countries, it's greatly reduced area means all UK fishing vessles will be competing in a very small area.

But it also doesn't take into account that certain kinds of fish are seasonal and regional, if there is a really good salmon batch down by spain or west of Ireland it just wont have access, and never mind if you wanted to pick up something exotic like swordfish or octopus.

The bottom line is, keeping the existing rules protected UK fishermens livelyhoods, and kept fish costs low... Lets hope the Brexit negotiations succeed on import/export duties because if it defaults to WTO taxation of 21% in/out a lot of people are going to lose their jobs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 02, 2017, 11:59:11 am
Gove is planning on pulling the UK out of the common fisheries act to "take back UK waters for UK fishermen". This same insane promise was pushed by UKIP so I really didn't think anyone would take it seriously, the bottom line is that act allowed the UK access to an area streching up towards Iceland, down to Spain and up past Norway and vice versa, European countries in UK water.

While technically it means that the UK will have exclusive fishing rights to it's own area, where previously a lot was given away to other countries, it's greatly reduced area means all UK fishing vessles will be competing in a very small area.

But it also doesn't take into account that certain kinds of fish are seasonal and regional, if there is a really good salmon batch down by spain or west of Ireland it just wont have access, and never mind if you wanted to pick up something exotic like swordfish or octopus.

The bottom line is, keeping the existing rules protected UK fishermens livelyhoods, and kept fish costs low... Lets hope the Brexit negotiations succeed on import/export duties because if it defaults to WTO taxation of 21% in/out a lot of people are going to lose their jobs.

It seems to be a given that no matter what the looneytunes in power do an awful lot of people are going to lose their jobs and a whole lot more people are going to have a degraded standard of living. In self defence I have decided that the best approach to this is to stop giving a flying fuck and to pimp out my handcart because we surely seem to be headed to hell on the fast track.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 02, 2017, 02:25:21 pm
It might not have such far reaching consequences but it seems so frustratingly unnecessary, especially with everything else going on. It's like Gove wanted to do something big and showy because he was on the out in the party, so in relation to Brexit he does something that would appear decisive, to endear himself with big boys table.

In reality it's is like going to a party where everyone has brought a massive amount of booze of all different varieties, then feeling precious about the bottle of wine he brought so instead decides to go home and drink it for himself.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 02, 2017, 10:36:32 pm
It's the inherent flaw of democracy. Doesn't matter if you vote right or left, the government only works on a 5 year time frame.

No point putting in place long-term reform or programs if you cold be voted out in 5 years. They just focus on lining their own pockets until the people figure it out and vote in the other side in the mistaken belief the will be somehow different.

True, but at this point even a 5 year time frame would be nice.

It might not have such far reaching consequences but it seems so frustratingly unnecessary, especially with everything else going on. It's like Gove wanted to do something big and showy because he was on the out in the party, so in relation to Brexit he does something that would appear decisive, to endear himself with big boys table.

In reality it's is like going to a party where everyone has brought a massive amount of booze of all different varieties, then feeling precious about the bottle of wine he brought so instead decides to go home and drink it for himself.

Gove is just doing for the environment what he did for education.

I will say I was surprised to see Gove jumping on the bandwagon to raise pay for civil servants and public sector workers.  I suppose it's possible the man isn't a complete shit, all day every day.  But it does seem like yet another case of him seeing a bared back, sticking the knife in and twisting it a bit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 10, 2017, 12:21:01 pm
May now asking for policy ideas from other parties, rather than just stealing them. "In light of the political realities", which translated means "I can't rely on my own party or even the dup despite the bribe."

"Resign immediately" is probably going to be the main suggestion. And this is surely another death note for this government whichever way you cut it.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2017, 02:38:45 pm
May isnt going to resign. Clearly you've been drinking too much warm prosecco.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 10, 2017, 04:24:45 pm
We can dream.

I can't imagine what would have to happen for May to actually resign though. She seems pretty intent on staying.

Having said that she was pretty intent on not having a snap election.

If she doesn't resign doesn't this action give the opposition parties a lot of power though? Start implementing some of their policies or at least ameliorating some of the Tories'  That seems like a good thing.

EDIT: Consumer spending lowest since 2013 as prices rise and wages don't. Strap in folks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2017, 06:31:10 pm
You might have missed yesterday's news.  According to Justice Secretary David Lidington all talk of May resigning is the result of warm prosecco, nothing more.

It's certainly not due to plotting by David Davis.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 12, 2017, 01:00:56 pm
Today is the bonfire and marching day up the north, it's a day that tends to have violence, and high tensions around it.
They are a small subset of scumbags, but it's important to note they are the DUPs voting base.

A charming bunch to be sure, with fine cultural traditions like buring the Irish flag, and with lovely banners like "We're not racist, just don't like Niggas"
(https://i.imgur.com/6q1QA6A.jpg)

Hopefully today will go by without anyone getting killed and not too many peoples pets murdered on the bonfires.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Scott The Cuck on July 12, 2017, 08:08:22 pm
Shocked so very shocked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2017, 12:08:29 pm
Blair still alive and making shit worse.

Starting to worry that next government may be Blair 2: deceitful boogaloo.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2017, 12:41:52 pm
The law has been changed so that the DUP don't have to reveal the highly suspicious donors who funded their pro-Brexit campaign during the referendum.

I think we all know why this is, but for those catching up: it was to get around campaign donation limits on Brexit, likely done at the behest of pro-Brexit Tories, done via a deniable cutout in the Middle East (who are often co-funders for the financial backers of the Tory Party).

The DUP, a bunch of yokels, don't just suddenly get given a little shy of half a million for no reason. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 12:57:57 am
BTW, there's some serious rioting going on in Dalston right about now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2017, 01:00:00 am
Over anything or just a Friday night there?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 01:03:23 am
Apparently some guy died during arrest by the police last week, so the UK branch of Black Lives Matter were out in force.  Beyond that, I don't know much, except that the situation appears to be spiralling right now

Here's some footage https://twitter.com/m8xyl/status/891045494583152644
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 29, 2017, 08:16:55 am
Police seem to be much better prepared this time around.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2017, 07:12:13 pm
There looked like an equal or greater number of cops than protesters?

Just saying, I'm all for a fair fight and whatnot but that seems like an excessive response and more a failure at a local level. Not been able to find any coverage, anyone seen any relevant numbers?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 08:35:08 pm
Not seen numbers yet, but I don't know at what point the footage was filmed.  If it had already been going on for a while, no doubt the police called in backup.

What's more surprising is that they were able to get it under control, given 7 years of austerity cuts.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2017, 01:52:45 pm
After years of cuts and minimal pay rises, I would assume the main perk left to police is the ability to kick the shit out of protesters every now and then while getting overtime pay.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 10, 2017, 02:43:45 pm
Things are going well for the Brexit negotiations

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/09/brexit-political-party-james-chapman-david-davis?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_BaconReader_Premium

Quote
The former chief of staff to David Davis has said Brexit is a catastrophe, and suggested that Boris Johnson and other leading Brexit campaigners should be jailed for claiming there would be an extra £350m a week for the NHS after the UK left the European Union.

James Chapman, a former special adviser who now works for a public relations firm, expressed his real views about leaving the EU in an online tirade after working for the Brexit secretary for a year at the Department for Exiting the European Union.

Quote
Chapman went on to direct a series of tweets at cabinet ministers raising concerns about the impact of Brexit on their department. He asked Karen Bradley, the culture secretary, whether she could “confirm all US broadcasters are moving out of London because of the PM’s deranged hard Brexit” and tweeted to Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, asking how millions of British tourists would maintain access to emergency healthcare while in the EU.

In another question directed at Greg Clark, the business secretary, he said: “I know you don’t agree with this nonsense, but can you confirm it’ll take 7 years to implement alternative Euratom regime?”
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 13, 2017, 09:59:09 pm
Reports of Rees-Muppet making a quiet leadership bid while may mea maxima culpas to the party at large for everything being a bit of a shitshow.

The question is, next election this year or next? The real question being who will be left holding the bag for brexit when it comes (or doesn't) as that's the next person out the door.

It's almost impressive, regardless of any decision now made, or even a full u-turn, you're committed to political suicide either way. The timescale just happens to be shorter the higher up you are.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 12:51:29 am
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2017, 03:04:41 am
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 07, 2017, 08:05:13 am
There's been so much mental news lately it's hard to keep up.

From what I can tell from the tax evasion stuff nobody's going to prison because a) they're rich and b) it's (in some cases) a bit of a non-story because it's all been done through hedge fund managers who are diversifying assets. Not like the Queen is personally picking all of her investments.

From the rapey politicians... also probably nobody unless some  way more severe and substantiated allegations come out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 11:03:02 am
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?

Nowadays, pretty much everyone. A couple are going to need to be pilloried and sacrificed so the rest can nod seriously and talk about how everything is now different. Personally, I've got a fiver on Green (Deputy PM) as it just seems inevitable.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 11:35:39 am
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?

(https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/received_10100673119167600.jpeg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 12:11:09 pm
I'm also 90% convinced that the only reason the backbenchers haven't already deposed May is that they fear the effects it would have on Brexit, and the possibility of Boris Johnson taking charge of the party.

Speaking of...after his irresponsible comments yesterday, which have likely jepordised the life of Nazanin Ratcliffe, he should not only be sacked as FM, he should be publically tarred and feathered.

Anyway, back to Brexit, I think we stumble along to the point that it becomes clear that we are getting a shit deal or no deal at all.  After that....all bets are off. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 07, 2017, 01:16:24 pm
Shit.  Too much going on.  What did I miss in the UK?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 01:26:29 pm
The PM gets a weekly briefing on the various nasty sexual things her MPs are doing.

That list was leaked to the press, along with some people coming forward to confirm allegations.  One Cabinet minister - Michael Fallon, whom I've previously descibed as a "hypocrite" and "moral imbecile" - has resigned as a result of this.  As you can see from the list, there are many more named.

Boris Johnson has falsely said that a British-Iranian woman arrested while holidaying in Iran was "training journalists" there.  She is charged with plotting to overthrow the government of Iran, which could extend to teaching opposition journalists, by Iran's standards.  But she's not there training journalists, she was visiting family.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 07, 2017, 02:26:32 pm
Sorry your government sucks almost as much as ours.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 05:04:36 pm
 :lulz:

Oh that list is gold.

"Liam fox - Adam Werrity".  :lulz:


And Will Wragg.  :lulz:

Can't wait for the lists from other parties.

Labour "Actual communist".
Greens "Has prop of Dr. Strangelove bomb at home. Rides it shouting yahoo."
Ukip "has no swastika tattoos, anywhere."
Lib-dem "Spends off hours beating kittens with rakes".
SNP "Secretly English".
DUP "IRA member. Active."

All these and more will look sensible and mundane by the time this is done.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 06:58:26 pm
I know, right?  That Liam Fox one has to be on purpose, it's just too good.  "No explanations needed, Adam Fucking Werrity, put it on the list and we're done."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 09, 2017, 03:32:24 am
Priti Patel has also resigned.

It's not clear whether she was off in Israel making foreign policy all on her lonesome, or whether she was off in Israel secretly circumventing the Foreign Office on May's orders to keep them and BoJo out of the loop...but either way, she's gone.

Patel was another one being tipped for a leadership role in a few years time, despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 09, 2017, 07:49:36 am
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 09, 2017, 09:18:37 pm
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.

To my understanding, no-one's quite sure. Direct questions are being avoided. Which is a surprise.

Also worth noting she's been replaced on the same day. Which is either a planned sacking or quick decision promotion. Or both. Regardless it doesn't bode well for this government as a long term entity. Which has longer term implications around the brexit negotiations. A government collapse prior and replacement with some kind of labour coalition, or even another tory coalition effectively resets any progress that might have been made. Assuming there is any to actually speak of. The exit date remains fixed so it becomes an increasingly impossible task to deal with.

The next bout of elections could be most amusing. Trying to get elected yet remaining away from power due to it essentially being some kind of poisoned chalice.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 09, 2017, 10:41:17 pm
A government collapse prior and replacement with some kind of labour coalition, or even another tory coalition effectively resets any progress that might have been made. Assuming there is any to actually speak of. The exit date remains fixed so it becomes an increasingly impossible task to deal with.


It's like you live at my job or something.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 10, 2017, 02:15:08 am
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.

I believe the idea was to use foreign development and aid money to assist the IDF in building military hospitals in the Occupied Territories, which runs counter to established UK foreign policy, that suggests we have nothing to do with involving ourselves in Israel's idiotic mistakes. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2017, 12:47:29 pm
Pound is tanking due to rumours of a no confidence vote against May being planned.

If there is a coup being plotted, they need to put up or shut up soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 13, 2017, 02:40:30 pm
If that happens though the DUP might pull the plug, be looking at another election.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2017, 04:05:29 pm
I know who we could ask for an opinion on that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3PKE8uTSp8).

But yeah.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 13, 2017, 06:09:59 pm
It worked really well, so much clarity, we could do with more clear strong stability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 04:48:23 pm
and at last the one we have all been waiting patiently for
todays addition to the No Shit Sherlock file is

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/facebook-has-finally-opened-the-door-to-admitting-russia?utm_term=.rf67DPEwab#.bww3eK8Vk7

best Theresa May quote evah
Quote
"So I have a very simple message for Russia: We know what you are doing and you will not succeed, because you underestimate the resilience of our democracies, the enduring attraction of free and open societies, and the commitment of Western nations to the alliances that bind us."


erm, except for President Donald J Trump and incipient Brexit. A word to the wise, Mrs May - they already bloody well won . . .

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 05:38:31 pm
ALSO

Quote
the commitment of Western nations to the alliances that bind us


you have to be fucking joking or just utterly utterly oblivious to what you are doing to your country
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2017, 06:04:57 pm
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 08:59:53 pm
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...


Gee Whizz, I can hardly wait . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 14, 2017, 09:34:56 pm
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...

China won a tender to build the first nuclear reactor in the UK in years, there was an argument that depending on an external country to maintain it would be cheaper then building up the knowledge base in the UK, and China said they could build it faster.

It's been delayed massively and China has said sourcing materials is more expensive because of Brexit.

The majority of people are still in favour of leaving the EU. But if it were to go to the polls again and clarify:

Exit EU
Exit Customs Union No / Full / NI to remain semi
Exit Single Energy Market

Do you think it would get any different results?

The republic have said that NI having any kind of a border results in WTO rules and no deal, which is almost a certainty now, but I wish it wasn't my home country having to play the veto card because it makes us look difficult and allows us to be scapegoated.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 18, 2017, 06:09:58 pm
I think there would be a lot more people in favour of leaving the EU but remaining in the EEA.

Of course, this would just further agitate and annoy the "Hard Brexit Now" crowd, but I do believe they are a minority among leave voters.  While there's a good number of people in this country motivated by immigration, and a good number of those motivated by racism, there's a good amount of misinformation, lies and longstanding tabloid prejudices mixed up in that, and I think some of those people have seen they've been lied to, or that the economic hit will outweigh the benefits.

Staying in the EEA would resolve the vast majority of the territorial problems, both NI and Scotland, resolve the majority of the trade issues and provide a framework for the UK's continuing association with EU bodies in the manner of Norway and Switzerland, thus calming political tensions and foreign investors.

But of course, we've committed ourself to cutting our collective throat, so that's what we're going to do.  I'm just hoping at this point that the EU is being serious about this "continuing EU citizenship" for British citizens business that is being floated.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 18, 2017, 10:03:35 pm
Faust, thoughts on who will succeed Gerry Adams in Sinn Fein next year?  I'm not very familiar with SF's second-tier talent...I was kinda hoping McGuinness and Adams would live forever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2017, 01:12:20 am
Unless something very surprising happens, it will be Mary Lou McDonald as head of SF in the Republic and of SF overall, in Northern Ireland it will be Michelle O'Neill though she is  very inexperienced.

I like Mary Lou, over the past years SF have become our strongest opposition party and they have done a good job of it, but often go for low hanging fruit and very easy contrarian issues.
She is also the logical next step of the peace process and moving past the troubles. Their end goal is obvious: they want a border poll in Northern Ireland to join the Republic, and will leverage the Brexit talks to try and cause it.
There’s not a chance of the fence sitting disgruntled unionists swaying to leave the U.K with Gerry in charge, but without him, SF in Northern Ireland will do their best to be the kinder / gentler party, all they need to do is offer a better option then Teresa May and Arlene Forrester and all they seem to be able to offer is a lost decade of Brexit.

In the Republic, SF have their own role, the biggest drawback to SF ever being taken as a serious contender for government was the IRA baggage, the Media, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael have always used IRA mudslinging to Gerry Adams as a last resort to undermine his credibility, it will be much harder to make it stick with Mary Lou.
This is the best time for Gerry to step away, there will likely be an election here in March/April and giving a few months for Mary Lou to establish herself and lead the party well and they could well get a small minority government propped up by independents which is roughly what we have now but slightly left of centre as opposed to right of centre.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2017, 08:41:20 pm
Interesting, thanks.  I have to admit, I skimmed the Wikipedia article on Mary Lou McDonald and it didn't inspire a great deal of confidence...but of course, it could always be much, much worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2017, 09:16:55 pm
She's the least worst option, the controversies section on her wiki page is that she defends IRA members which will be standard for the course with any member of SF.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2017, 09:43:21 pm
Oh yes, it was more the selling merchandise thing.  I expect the supporting thing, but a little bit of good taste can go a long way.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 20, 2017, 09:15:54 am
She's not in the least bit classy, she appeals to a very low mentality that glorify the IRA as hero's that could do no wrong. Normally that is teenagers but a small subset of people don't grow out of it.