Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Techmology and Scientism => Topic started by: trix on July 27, 2016, 05:47:33 pm

Title: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 05:47:33 pm
So I searched these forums but was unable to find a thread on this topic so here's one.

At onecommunityglobal.com they are attempting to create a sort of Venus Project / Zeitgeist sustainable community that is both a tourist attraction and an example of modern living in comfort while using only sustainable technology.  I've spent a couple weeks reading nearly everything on their website, which is a LOT of reading and researching, and I have to say I very much like this project

However, some of the terminology they've invented and the way a lot of their ideas are presented makes me a bit... hesitant.  They seem rather heavily Holistic / PETA-ish in their way of addressing many things.  Maybe I'm just knee-jerking to the word "Holistic" and certain terms like "The Highest Good Of All" which reminds me of Grindlewald from the Harry Potter universe. ("The Greatest Good!")

I'm curious as to what the people here may think, being somewhat better than me at spotting bullshit disguised as goodness.

 - trix
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 27, 2016, 05:57:29 pm
Being suspicious of utopias is almost always the right call.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 27, 2016, 06:04:25 pm
I see many, many, many words, most of which are the equivalent of handwaving and platitudes. I only looked at the "food" and "economics" sections, but man...

Quote
WHAT IS HIGHEST GOOD ECONOMICS
The One Community definition of Highest Good economics is business that is specifically pursued with the intention and long-term focus to function for The Highest Good of All people and all life on this planet. These businesses are fair, proactive and forward-thinking, ecological, transparent in their function and operation, and they provide value while creating positive impacts individually, locally, and globally. As an organization we are focused on demonstrating and open source free-sharing duplicable RBE, for-profit, non-profit, and entrepreneurial economics models that specifically meet all of these criteria. In so doing, they will function as a foundation of demonstrating that living and creating for The Highest Good of All can function proactively in existing competitive markets, free people from debt, and provide developing teacher/demonstration communities, villages, and cities on-going capital for upkeep and further expansion.

If you can pin down any specific aspect of their proposed economic system from that, you're one ahead of me.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 27, 2016, 06:08:46 pm
The whole website is AMAZING! It's like they took their cues from those business websites where you can never figure out exactly what it is that the business does. Clipart and everything.

Check this page out: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/solutions-that-create-solutions/
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 06:10:52 pm
There's a lot of qualitative words there, completely undefined.  Didn't see anything quantitative.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 27, 2016, 06:14:26 pm
The whole website is AMAZING! It's like they took their cues from those business websites where you can never figure out exactly what it is that the business does. Clipart and everything.

Check this page out: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/solutions-that-create-solutions/

Did someone explain the White Savior thing to them?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 06:16:33 pm
I like how they're very secretive as to where this will be located.  It's like a utopian Carmen Sandiago.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 06:25:57 pm
 :lulz:

I love you guys!

They do have actual substantial things in there. quite good ones, but yeah it's definitely buried under metric fucktons of wordy handwaving.  They really make you dig for the substantial stuff.

I do like the weekly progress updates, but in general yeah they have way too many "self-taught graphic artists" and overly wordy fuckers posting on the main pages of the website.  It seems the more serious people doing the more serious work get their stuff linked to in a very dig-deep sort of way.

Finding the sitemap and going from there is helpful.  The website is really really large.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 27, 2016, 06:26:04 pm
Someone put a lot of work into making that website and it doesn't really say ANYTHING at all. Also I love the more or less meaningless, yet busy, "maps". They almost look like something that was created for a video game.

(http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/One-Community-Highest-Good-Society-1280.jpg)

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 27, 2016, 06:27:56 pm
:lulz:

I love you guys!

They do have actual substantial things in there. quite good ones, but yeah it's definitely buried under metric fucktons of wordy handwaving.  They really make you dig for the substantial stuff.

I do like the weekly progress updates, but in general yeah they have way too many "self-taught graphic artists" and overly wordy fuckers posting on the main pages of the website.  It seems the more serious people doing the more serious work get their stuff linked to in a very dig-deep sort of way.

Finding the sitemap and going from there is helpful.  The website is really really large.

If you can post links to/excerpts from the sections of substance you're finding, it would be really helpful - I don't really have time to browse the whole site, I should be working on my thesis right now, given that it's due Friday.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 06:41:46 pm
:lulz:

I love you guys!

They do have actual substantial things in there. quite good ones, but yeah it's definitely buried under metric fucktons of wordy handwaving.  They really make you dig for the substantial stuff.

I do like the weekly progress updates, but in general yeah they have way too many "self-taught graphic artists" and overly wordy fuckers posting on the main pages of the website.  It seems the more serious people doing the more serious work get their stuff linked to in a very dig-deep sort of way.

Finding the sitemap and going from there is helpful.  The website is really really large.

If you can post links to/excerpts from the sections of substance you're finding, it would be really helpful - I don't really have time to browse the whole site, I should be working on my thesis right now, given that it's due Friday.

Ok, here we go.  Even knowing I've seen these sections before it was tough locating them again.  Very tough. The website is most definitely a problem.  Their main writer on the site, whoever that person is, is clearly very overly impressed with their own ability to fill pages upon pages upon PAGES with meaningless bullshit, hiding the useful information quite deep.

Anyway, blueprints:
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/earthbag-village/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/straw-bale-village/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/tropical-atrium/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/duplicable-city-center/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/hoop-houses/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/large-scale-gardening/
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/aquapinis-and-walipinis/
...and more.

Most of those links also contain economic breakdowns of exact cost of materials, transport, etc.

Basically if you go to the SiteMap (Top Left, first option under the About drop down menu), and scroll down to the "Alphabetical listing of pages", it's a stupid way to organize things but I find it's the best way to find specific pages and information.

Also the Progress Updates show a lot of the actual work being done.

As for LMNO's comment about the secret location... I agree.  However their argument for keeping it under wraps until after it's been purchased might be legit.  I don't know anything about buying property so I can't really say.

Really though, they could just pick a place and claim they are considering it, if the goal was to mislead.

Hmm, I feel like I'm being defensive.  Maybe I'm just too easily impressed by 3D models, blueprints, and the extreme amount of planning and "surface work" they've put into it so far.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 27, 2016, 06:44:52 pm
This reminds me of "The Citadel" for hippies.

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 06:48:45 pm
Also it took me a few hours to make sense of their "Consensus" page about how they make big decisions, and that part specifically gives me a lot of pause.  They seem to expect that given enough of their Highest Good Propaganda people will generally just agree to things as they come up.  My experience with people tells me that even on something simple, like who gets the last capri sun, when it should obviously go to the person who has had the fewest, can turn into a shitfest really quickly and require a decision to be made over the strenuous objections of well meaning others.  In other words, as Doc likes to say, People Are The Problem.

I just don't think you can educate disagreement out of people, like their Consensus pages seem to think.  Maybe I got the wrong idea when I read it.  They do seem too idealistic as to people getting along.

That said, none of the above is a reason to discount the entire project IMO.  I think there's a lot of promise here.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 07:07:27 pm
That website doesn't reflect The Highest Good a website can be.  That's not a good first impression.

It also does seem that the entire thing can be boiled down to 'things would be good if everyone were nicer to each other'.  The problem of this approach should be obvious.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 07:23:03 pm
That website doesn't reflect The Highest Good a website can be.  That's not a good first impression.

It also does seem that the entire thing can be boiled down to 'things would be good if everyone were nicer to each other'.  The problem of this approach should be obvious.

I agree on both points.  For the website, I think a more wikipedia-like approach would be highly beneficial.  Especially as Wikipedia itself is "open source".  As for the idealistic people being nicer thing, yeah.  Very yeah.  They will for sure have problems with this.  I'm curious to see what they learn from it though.

All that said, I still think the actual community they are trying to build, if their planning and such is actually legit, could be a great example of sustainable living while still preserving a high quality of life and technology.  All the idealistic hand-holding crap aside, any example that shows people they can have all their creature comforts without dooming their grandchildren is worthwhile in my book.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 27, 2016, 08:21:53 pm
That website doesn't reflect The Highest Good a website can be.  That's not a good first impression.

It also does seem that the entire thing can be boiled down to 'things would be good if everyone were nicer to each other'.  The problem of this approach should be obvious.

I agree on both points.  For the website, I think a more wikipedia-like approach would be highly beneficial.  Especially as Wikipedia itself is "open source".  As for the idealistic people being nicer thing, yeah.  Very yeah.  They will for sure have problems with this.  I'm curious to see what they learn from it though.

All that said, I still think the actual community they are trying to build, if their planning and such is actually legit, could be a great example of sustainable living while still preserving a high quality of life and technology.  All the idealistic hand-holding crap aside, any example that shows people they can have all their creature comforts without dooming their grandchildren is worthwhile in my book.

It will be every bit as successful as Occupy.   :lulz:
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 08:58:56 pm
I'd call you a pessimist if you weren't right so goddamn often.

Thing is, Occupy got me off my couch.  Showed me that there's a ton of people that will get off their couch and try something.  It didn't really work that time, but it was worth trying.

It probably wont work this time either, I'll grant you that.

I've just always been a little obsessed with the idea of sustainable living without sacrificing comfort.  The Venus Project was the first thing I found that looked like it had similar ideas.  I volunteered a decent amount of time towards helping them, until I began to realize that despite what it says on their website, they had no *real* intention of actually trying out their ideas in the real world.  As far as I could tell, they seem to want to wait until the economy collapses and then offer TVP as a "new way of living" or something and hope people accept it.  They also keep their specific blueprints and anything actually useful very close to their chest.  They even trademarked "Resource-based Economy".  This does not help people who actually want to do something offline, in the real world.

One Community, on the other hand, publishes the results of a TON of professional effort right on their website, albeit in a very buried-under-bullshit manner.  Anyone wanting to build a self-sustainable community of ANY kind, would find a ton of useful information if they dug through the crap to get there.  The website is clearly the result of someone drinking way too much of the kool-aid and vomiting it back up very very verbosely on all of the main pages.  Aside from that though, a lot of people did a lot of real work and the results ARE there between the bullshit.  The biggest thing that remains to be seen IMO, is if they actually build a real community in the real world.  I have not found a page showing their funding progress towards purchasing the property, which may or may not be a bad sign, but if they do manage to get something workable built somewhere, I may just have to get off my couch again.

Not that I don't work and shit, I just mean actually going out and trying to do something about the shit I'm always whining about.  I hate that every time I've done that in the past, my efforts never really went anywhere.  Scott Walker got elected, Occupy floundered, The Venus Project made another preaching to the choir documentary, etc.  If these folks get to the point where they have positive revenue stream and anywhere near as self-sufficient as they plan to be, I think I'll have to sign up.

I'm an optimistic, idealistic, stupid-ass monkey, though.

Also I admit a large part of why I want to drink this kool-aid is the idea of living in a community that is sustainable enough to give its members the added free time and resources to study, improve, create, and/or assist in whatever endeavor those individuals choose to focus their effort on.  I mean, everyone would still be required to contribute to keeping things running, but if it works out anything even close to how its planned, and I mean technically and logistically, not socially, it really looks like it could provide an environment where everyone involved can have far more time and energy to focus on what really interests them.

Also also I like the idea that it's planned from the beginning for each community to spawn another like it.  That's of course assuming the revenue streams work as intended and they produce the surplus they expect to, which is a rather large assumption.  Still though, I can't help but respect the amount of effort put into researching absolutely everything related to the project though.

I think in the end I'm just going to wait and see.  If they actually get something built in the real world that people can visit, and they show positive revenue and tourism, and things seem to go more or less as planned, I'll have a much higher degree of confidence that my efforts in helping them wont go to waste this time.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 27, 2016, 09:17:30 pm
I'd call you a pessimist if you weren't right so goddamn often.

Thing is, Occupy got me off my couch.  Showed me that there's a ton of people that will get off their couch and try something.  It didn't really work that time, but it was worth trying.

It probably wont work this time either, I'll grant you that.

I've just always been a little obsessed with the idea of sustainable living without sacrificing comfort.  The Venus Project was the first thing I found that looked like it had similar ideas.  I volunteered a decent amount of time towards helping them, until I began to realize that despite what it says on their website, they had no *real* intention of actually trying out their ideas in the real world.  As far as I could tell, they seem to want to wait until the economy collapses and then offer TVP as a "new way of living" or something and hope people accept it.  They also keep their specific blueprints and anything actually useful very close to their chest.  They even trademarked "Resource-based Economy".  This does not help people who actually want to do something offline, in the real world.

One Community, on the other hand, publishes the results of a TON of professional effort right on their website, albeit in a very buried-under-bullshit manner.  Anyone wanting to build a self-sustainable community of ANY kind, would find a ton of useful information if they dug through the crap to get there.  The website is clearly the result of someone drinking way too much of the kool-aid and vomiting it back up very very verbosely on all of the main pages.  Aside from that though, a lot of people did a lot of real work and the results ARE there between the bullshit.  The biggest thing that remains to be seen IMO, is if they actually build a real community in the real world.  I have not found a page showing their funding progress towards purchasing the property, which may or may not be a bad sign, but if they do manage to get something workable built somewhere, I may just have to get off my couch again.

Not that I don't work and shit, I just mean actually going out and trying to do something about the shit I'm always whining about.  I hate that every time I've done that in the past, my efforts never really went anywhere.  Scott Walker got elected, Occupy floundered, The Venus Project made another preaching to the choir documentary, etc.  If these folks get to the point where they have positive revenue stream and anywhere near as self-sufficient as they plan to be, I think I'll have to sign up.

I'm an optimistic, idealistic, stupid-ass monkey, though.

Also I admit a large part of why I want to drink this kool-aid is the idea of living in a community that is sustainable enough to give its members the added free time and resources to study, improve, create, and/or assist in whatever endeavor those individuals choose to focus their effort on.  I mean, everyone would still be required to contribute to keeping things running, but if it works out anything even close to how its planned, and I mean technically and logistically, not socially, it really looks like it could provide an environment where everyone involved can have far more time and energy to focus on what really interests them.

Also also I like the idea that it's planned from the beginning for each community to spawn another like it.  That's of course assuming the revenue streams work as intended and they produce the surplus they expect to, which is a rather large assumption.  Still though, I can't help but respect the amount of effort put into researching absolutely everything related to the project though.

I think in the end I'm just going to wait and see.  If they actually get something built in the real world that people can visit, and they show positive revenue and tourism, and things seem to go more or less as planned, I'll have a much higher degree of confidence that my efforts in helping them wont go to waste this time.

Futurists come in 4 flavors:

1.  Strategic forecasters
2.  Urbanists
3.  The kind of dipshits that take a speculative possibility and write it up like it's already proven tech, so that after the initial disappointment, nobody can ever work on that subject again without being heckled out of existence.
4.  Charlatans.

The first group you describe is #4
This most recent group is #3.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 09:33:24 pm
The whole website is AMAZING! It's like they took their cues from those business websites where you can never figure out exactly what it is that the business does. Clipart and everything.

Check this page out: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/solutions-that-create-solutions/

There appears to be little actual information, but there on every social media site you've heard of and many that you haven't.

It screams of a scam, really. Just look at how they offer "compensation for professionals and consultants". I already knew "money" wasn't going to be on the list, but what they actually offer is just so much less. For example, a mention on a blog that you've never heard of!
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/compensation/
Quote
We are experts at promoting the people who help us: Our marketing program | Our promotional blog (Both poor and shitty. And at update 174 you should have reached more people by now. Really.)
Long-term referrals and specific crediting related to the areas you contribute to this project(Worthless.)
You join our team creating positive and permanent global transformation for all people and all life(Lonely? Need to feel like you belong? Join our cult)
You can use our global organization as a reference and add us to your resumé and/or website (Global orgs of any standing typically have more than 6-700 facebook links. As in, a lot more)
We’ll be memorializing everyone who invests significant time into all major components of One Community through a plaque or other permanent method of recognition as part of the structures themselves and as part of the open source blueprints we are providing to the world for duplication(Pretend that you contributions will make your name immortal!)
Our open source model is a huge marketing engine (Ha)that continues to grow and is purposed to help those who help us promote their services and products and find paid consulting work(We don't/won't/cant). We do this through your listing on our Consultants/Partners Page and/or our Highest Good Collaborative Organizations page, plus the page specific to any component you help with, and ongoing sharing of your work and contribution in The One Community Weekly Updates Written Blog and Video and through our social media outlets.(Second mention and it's still shit) These ways of marketing you will exist forever(really, we've paid for everything for infinity) and the number of people seeking help through us is growing and will continue to grow even more and even faster as our project grows(It'll totally just get better because it will). We see this as having huge revenue potential for anyone who helps us in these early stages of development(Because we're fucking deluded)

http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/team/

The number of people here with "Marketing" or "Web design" as part of their description is unreal. And also a very strong indication of the levels of skill involved given that there's broken shit on the website and there's no real attention at this.

So let's look at the head guy, Jae Sabol.

http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/jae-sabol/

There's a lot of bullshit there. I wonder if he's at least notable enough for a wikipedia page, with this extensive history?

Err, what's this?
http://www.nanice.com/127//
Quote
Jae Sabol is an author, entrepreneur, holistic health professional, licensed massage therapist, neuromuscular therapist, and licensed trainer of Neuro-linguistic Programming.

Jae is certified by the National Academy of Sports Medicine, National College of Exercise Professionals, International Sports Sciences Association and the Corrective Holistic Exercise Kinesiology (CHEK) Institute as an Holistic Lifestyle Coach and Exercise Therapist. He also has additional training in advanced nutrition, hypno-therapy, Reiki, Matrix Energetics, massage and several other synergistic health modalities.

That's a lot of time fucking wasted.
Quote
Jae is now in the process of finishing his first full length book and designing an iPhone/iPad application to expand the nature of people's experience of reality while continuing to work with clients in the holistic health arena.
"Buggering about".

Looks to me like a typical new age guru shearing the current generation of their wallets for promises of rewards at some point in the future.

It's actually worse than that because he's fucking incompetent at it to boot, so fuck this guy and these people. The language changes but the motivation remains exactly the fucking same as always.

ETA - It's a 4, Roger. Trust me, it's a fucking 4.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 27, 2016, 09:37:19 pm

ETA - It's a 4, Roger. Trust me, it's a fucking 4.

I stand corrected.   :lol:
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 09:43:54 pm
damn.  damn damn damn.

Thank you, but damn.  I really wanted to drink their kool-aid.  It looked so delicious.

Why does a simple idea like building a community around the idea of being as sustainable as possible, have to always be fucking bullshit artists and their magical thinking bullshit.

I wish I was better at seeing this shit for what it is.  Luckily you lot indulge me and save me a lot of frustration down the road.  Thanks.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 09:47:31 pm
Quote
Jae can be reached for consultation or questions via phone at 310.755.4693.

Feel free to give him a call and ask him how he sleeps at night.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 10:48:50 pm
Quote
Current Spiritual Leader: JaeSabol

Oh, this could get good. We're waiting.

Edit to fix quote.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 11:00:39 pm
For the record, he did not seek out this thread, I linked him to it via E-Mail, as I'm curious to how he would respond.  His reply to me indicated he would register here and address the criticism directly.

Should be interesting, entertaining and informative.  I look forward to the discussion.

I know better than to say play nice, but please keep in mind I invited him here.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 11:10:14 pm
It does change the tone for the moment, yes.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 11:17:16 pm
That tone rhymes with "Men Back".
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 11:20:51 pm
That tone rhymes with "Men Back".

Help me out here? I'm probably having an idiot moment but this is like a cryptic crossword right now for some reason.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 11:22:58 pm
That tone rhymes with "Men Back".

Help me out here? I'm probably having an idiot moment but this is like a cryptic crossword right now for some reason.

LOL I've been sitting here trying to guess it myself.

Then Attack?
Friend Hack?
When Crack?
Ten Stack?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 11:31:20 pm
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?typeofrhyme=perfect&Word=back&loc=spellmap3

I honestly have no fucking idea and this didn't help.

nymphomaniac?
negative feedback?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Freeky on July 27, 2016, 11:43:17 pm
That tone rhymes with "Men Back".

He Who Shall Not Be Named! 
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 11:43:45 pm
Ten-pack?
Zen Slack?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 11:45:43 pm
I keep forgetting that there are people who never experienced playing poker without cards.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 27, 2016, 11:51:07 pm
I keep forgetting that there are people who never experienced playing poker without cards.

Nope, I don't even know what you're referencing.  I did find Ben's unlimited fail thread though and now understand the original comment you made.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 12:10:57 am
And again, little help here?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 28, 2016, 12:18:04 am
And again, little help here?

B** M***, username L*ve

------

I'm really looking forward to Jae Sabol's response ITT, I want to be convinced it's legit but only if it's actually legit.

That said, now that it's been pointed out to me, the more I look the more of that new-age guru holistic yoga spirit crystal stuff I see.  If their intent really is pure, I think they'd do much much better to distance themselves from *any* spirituality at all.  If the website was purely scientific or engineering in nature I'd be much more comfortable, but the entire 50 pages of The Highest Buzzwords We Can Keep Repeating that they bury the real information in are probably the biggest hurdle to taking them seriously.

It just looks like they put way way more focus, effort, and attention to verbosely detailing their social philosophy endlessly than to the actual data.  This may not be true, as there is data there as well, but it certainly looks like it.

I think the biggest point One Community is missing, if they are legit, is that the very simple idea of showing the world that a community can be sustainable and still very comfortable thanks to technology, is more important than their ideas about socially living together and all that Highest Good Of All crap.  I mean I'm all for considering what's best for everyone, but the cult-like The Highest Good Of All repetition is very off-putting and the whole holistic new-age stuff should be left out of it entirely, as that's individual "beliefs" and many of us want no part of that.

Also I really want an idea as to their funding progress.  Their idea will cost millions of dollars.  They seem to have some figures in mind already for what they need to spend to get started, so some kind of percentage as to how close they are, updated as more funding comes in, would go a long way toward silencing the Scam-o-meter.  I mean, I can't tell from the website if they are two months or three years away from actually building something in the real world.  In fact I can't seem to find anywhere in there that they even know when they expect to begin. They have a 5-10 year plan for after they start but nothing about how long from right now do they put down the first sandbag.

It's good that Jae Sabol is willing to come here and address our criticisms directly.  Like I keep saying, I want to be convinced... but I wont convince myself.  It's against my religion.  Hence, this thread.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 12:22:21 am
Slow down son, he's not even said Hello formally yet. Give the man time.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 28, 2016, 12:22:46 am
*gasp*

You. Said. His. Name.

:omg:
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 12:32:00 am
Hi All,

I’m Jae, the founder of One Community. Someone emailed me this forum so I joined so I could comment here and address as many of the points as possible. I'll do this to the best of my ability in the order they were presented. If I miss any, feel free to ask your questions and I'll answer them as long as it seems productive.

First off, the feedback on the website is good feedback. We've gotten it before and the sitemap and overview pages were meant to create easy access to the “quantitative” and “substantial" information that has been pointed to within this forum as what is desired. The Highest Good hubs link more directly to that information with a consistent format that includes a directory of icons that link to the detailed pages related to each section. The top-level pages (heavily criticized here) all link to these pages too. Those pages then have indexes at the top that link directly to the open source detailed pages. These hubs are also linked to from the top and side of every page. This creates the "website tree" of Big Picture Concepts (explaining the scope and nature of the project to new people) --> Overview Pages for Each Area of Focus (explaining these areas) --> Detailed Tutorials and Open Source Content 

All that said, we hear your feedback that it’s still hard to dig through and we've just started working on a new site (see our weekly updates for progress) that will have a program/component filter function on the homepage that will allow people to jump directly to whatever they are looking for.  The hubs will be front and center to also get people directly to that information if pictures are preferable to search filters.

Rebuilding our site is going to take a long time though and we're not even sure if the filter we want can be built the way we want it yet. Ask me in a few more weeks. In the meantime, I'll put in some work on the homepage to make it even clearer how to find the detailed information easier. Right now I'm thinking of a "Start Here" link at the top and adding more clarity to the Overview page as to how the site is organized.

Next point I see is about “Utopia” - we have a whole page on this specific topic: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/creating-utopia-on-earth/ It’ll probably generate more negative feedback in this forum, but it is specific to this point. The short summary of that page is that, while it may not be possible to create a sustainable world that meets the needs of all people, we don’t think this means we shouldn’t still try. Most everything amazing in our world today was criticized and considered impossible by most, yet someone decided to do it anyway and here we are.

Still, we recognize that “utopia” is very different for different people and may not even be desirable for others. The same goes for “Highest Good.” So our philosophy is open source everything in as much detail as possible and people can take what they want and use it or change it how they want to make whatever they want. Using “Highest Good” internally is our way of making sure that we are doing our best to focus on Best Practice as our goal. The specifics of how we define and use "Highest Good" as an organization are here: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/for-the-highest-good-of-all/ Others can do it however they want.

Someone said "Being suspicious of utopias is almost always the right call.” My response to this is that I agree. I’d add though that excessive suspicion often creates non-action and can really slow down progress. Our project has tons of pages because we strive for transparency and clarity of our purpose and intent. Each one of those pages is in response to repeated feedback and the goal with writing them all is to provide enough detail so that those who do their research and are willing to read what we’ve written can get involved if they want to. For those who'd rather just watch and wait, we provide all we do so they can see we’ve at least thought of all these points.

Next point I see is about our economic model and how we compensate volunteers. Our economic overview is here, as previously linked by someone else: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/highest-good-economics Clicking the icons goes into as much detail as we’ve got so far. It doesn’t cost anything to join our group but we’re a long long way from being funded and our current donations don’t cover operating expenses so the rest is paid for by me. We don’t accept donations from volunteers or core team members.

As for compensating volunteers, we don’t. Everyone is an unpaid volunteer, including me. As I just said, it costs me money to keep this project going and I volunteer full-time on top of that. I believe in our goals and am committed to creating what’s needed so forums like this can be answered with a tangible example rather than more talk. I understand that addressing these points directly here will probably not make a difference to many, so the real goal is to demonstrate it all.

For those who are willing to put time into help us get there faster, we promote them as someone else already outlined and we’re clear about this being how we can compensate people so only people who see that as worthwhile can join. This was criticized as being a sign we’re a scam. It is just transparency about what we have to offer and the reality of our all-volunteer project. Promotion and experience is what we have to offer and people looking for a more capitalist approach aren’t going to be happy volunteering for an organization like ours. Read our application page for volunteers (http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/collaboration/) and you’ll see we’re even more clear about this because it used to take a lot of time fielding all the emails from people trying to sell us stuff, wanting a job, wanting our project to do work for their project, etc.

Still, we’ve got an amazing group of people that have chosen to join the team and work with us to get as far as we’ve gotten. We also still get a fair amount of sales emails and “do our project for us” letters, but it is much less than it used to be.

The rest of the comments look like their questioning the integrity of myself, project viability, the vision and goals of our project, and our team. You don’t know me and it sounds like the extensive effort we’ve gone through to explain our project, how it’s unfolding, what it’s purposed to accomplish, etc. has (for most of you) had the opposite affect of what we’ve intended. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. My experience though is that it is much easier to sit on the sidelines and complain and criticize things than to take action and work on a solution, becoming the target of such criticism and cynicism. 

Knowing this is how it is, our ultimate goal is to be as transparent and detailed as possible as we produce open source starter resources and (eventually) a working prototype including all we’re developing. We invite anyone to join who wants to, don’t accept money to join us, promote and support our helpers as much as we can, integrate to the best of our ability feedback like what I’ve read here, and do our best to create for the good of all people and the planet. We open source it so others can take what they want and do it differently if they like.

Our belief is that by creating for what we feel is the “Highest Good” possible, we’re doing much better than the status quo, and anyone who runs with any of our ideas probably is going to create better than the current paradigm too. We see this as progress and believe that even if we fail to produce the working prototype, we’re still doing way more than the vast majority of organizations with similar goals.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 12:57:16 am
Quote
That said, now that it's been pointed out to me, the more I look the more of that new-age guru holistic yoga spirit crystal stuff I see.  If their intent really is pure, I think they'd do much much better to distance themselves from *any* spirituality at all.  If the website was purely scientific or engineering in nature I'd be much more comfortable, but the entire 50 pages of The Highest Buzzwords We Can Keep Repeating that they bury the real information in are probably the biggest hurdle to taking them seriously.

It just looks like they put way way more focus, effort, and attention to verbosely detailing their social philosophy endlessly than to the actual data.  This may not be true, as there is data there as well, but it certainly looks like it.

I think the biggest point One Community is missing, if they are legit, is that the very simple idea of showing the world that a community can be sustainable and still very comfortable thanks to technology, is more important than their ideas about socially living together and all that Highest Good Of All crap.  I mean I'm all for considering what's best for everyone, but the cult-like The Highest Good Of All repetition is very off-putting and the whole holistic new-age stuff should be left out of it entirely, as that's individual "beliefs" and many of us want no part of that.

All the "Highest Good" focus is to clarify the mentality we're creating with because we see it as essential for creating a successful prototype. In the past, people wanting to create to escape society, or for survival/preparation reasons, or to make money, etc. have become huge hinderances and distractions from the goal of a working prototype. So we updated the site to be really clear on the type of mentality we're seeking and creating from, and that it is all open source so others can create however they want instead.

Quote
Also I really want an idea as to their funding progress.  Their idea will cost millions of dollars.  They seem to have some figures in mind already for what they need to spend to get started, so some kind of percentage as to how close they are, updated as more funding comes in, would go a long way toward silencing the Scam-o-meter.  I mean, I can't tell from the website if they are two months or three years away from actually building something in the real world.  In fact I can't seem to find anywhere in there that they even know when they expect to begin. They have a 5-10 year plan for after they start but nothing about how long from right now do they put down the first sandbag.

I answered this in my first post but some added clarity may be helpful. We don't know when we'll move to the property. We could be funded tomorrow or 5 years from now. We're not ready to fully build yet though, so our focus is on that. This page discusses this in more detail: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/one-community-now

We're working on a crowdfunding campaign for a piece of the first village too: http://onecommunityglobal.org/earthbag-and-aircrete-dome-home-crowdfunding/ How soon we can launch that though comes down to how much help we have from volunteers. Right now I'm hoping for the beginning of next year but I can't be sure. Everyone has jobs and bills to pay, so people volunteer what they can and I've become much more patient as I've had to let go of all my timelines.

We're moving forward at a really good pace but the task is huge and stop-and-go in a lot of areas because people drop off the volunteer team all the time. So we move forward where we have people to help and put the rest on hold when we don't. As big as our site is, we've probably got double that much information that has yet to be posted because we just don't have enough web designers to put it up or it's not ready yet because the person working on it had life take them in a different direction. All of this is the type of tangible and technical information requested in this forum too, but it take a ton of time to build those pages and we've only got a few people (I'm one of them) capable of doing it. It's coming though and will be great when it's done.

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 01:07:48 am
Hi All,
(1)
I’m Jae, the founder of One Community. Someone emailed me this forum so I joined so I could comment here and address as many of the points as possible. I'll do this to the best of my ability in the order they were presented. If I miss any, feel free to ask your questions and I'll answer them as long as it seems productive. (2)

First off, the feedback on the website is good feedback. We've gotten it before and the sitemap and overview pages were meant to create easy access to the “quantitative” and “substantial" information that has been pointed to within this forum as what is desired. The Highest Good hubs link more directly to that information with a consistent format that includes a directory of icons that link to the detailed pages related to each section. The top-level pages (heavily criticized here) all link to these pages too. Those pages then have indexes at the top that link directly to the open source detailed pages. These hubs are also linked to from the top and side of every page. This creates the "website tree" of Big Picture Concepts (explaining the scope and nature of the project to new people) --> Overview Pages for Each Area of Focus (explaining these areas) --> Detailed Tutorials and Open Source Content 

All that said, we hear your feedback that it’s still hard to dig through and we've just started working on a new site (see our weekly updates for progress) that will have a program/component filter function on the homepage that will allow people to jump directly to whatever they are looking for.  The hubs will be front and center to also get people directly to that information if pictures are preferable to search filters.

Rebuilding our site is going to take a long time though and we're not even sure if the filter we want can be built the way we want it yet. Ask me in a few more weeks. In the meantime, I'll put in some work on the homepage to make it even clearer how to find the detailed information easier. Right now I'm thinking of a "Start Here" link at the top and adding more clarity to the Overview page as to how the site is organized. (3)

Next point I see is about “Utopia” - we have a whole page on this specific topic: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/creating-utopia-on-earth/ It’ll probably generate more negative feedback in this forum, but it is specific to this point. The short summary of that page is that, while it may not be possible to create a sustainable world that meets the needs of all people, we don’t think this means we shouldn’t still try. Most everything amazing in our world today was criticized and considered impossible by most, yet someone decided to do it anyway and here we are. (4)

Still, we recognize that “utopia” is very different for different people and may not even be desirable for others. The same goes for “Highest Good.” So our philosophy is open source everything in as much detail as possible and people can take what they want and use it or change it how they want to make whatever they want. Using “Highest Good” internally is our way of making sure that we are doing our best to focus on Best Practice as our goal. The specifics of how we define and use "Highest Good" as an organization are here: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/for-the-highest-good-of-all/ Others can do it however they want.

Someone said "Being suspicious of utopias is almost always the right call.” My response to this is that I agree. I’d add though that excessive suspicion often creates non-action and can really slow down progress. Our project has tons of pages because we strive for transparency(!!5!!) and clarity of our purpose and intent. Each one of those pages is in response to repeated feedback and the goal with writing them all is to provide enough detail so that those who do their research and are willing to read what we’ve written can get involved if they want to. For those who'd rather just watch and wait, we provide all we do so they can see we’ve at least thought of all these points.

Next point I see is about our economic model and how we compensate volunteers. Our economic overview is here, as previously linked by someone else: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/highest-good-economics Clicking the icons goes into as much detail as we’ve got so far. It doesn’t cost anything to join our group but we’re a long long way from being funded and our current donations don’t cover operating expenses so the rest is paid for by me. We don’t accept donations from volunteers or core team members.

As for compensating volunteers, we don’t. Everyone is an unpaid volunteer, including me. As I just said, it costs me money to keep this project going and I volunteer full-time on top of that. I believe in our goals and am committed to creating what’s needed so forums like this can be answered with a tangible example rather than more talk. I understand that addressing these points directly here will probably not make a difference to many, so the real goal is to demonstrate it all. (6)

For those who are willing to put time into help us get there faster, we promote them as someone else already outlined and we’re clear about this being how we can compensate people so only people who see that as worthwhile can join. This was criticized as being a sign we’re a scam.(7) It is just transparency about what we have to offer and the reality of our all-volunteer project. Promotion and experience is what we have to offer and people looking for a more capitalist approach aren’t going to be happy volunteering for an organization like ours. Read our application page for volunteers (http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/collaboration/) and you’ll see we’re even more clear about this because it used to take a lot of time fielding all the emails from people trying to sell us stuff, wanting a job, wanting our project to do work for their project, etc.

Still, we’ve got an amazing group of people that have chosen to join the team and work with us to get as far as we’ve gotten. We also still get a fair amount of sales emails and “do our project for us” letters, but it is much less than it used to be.

The rest of the comments look like their questioning the integrity of myself(8), project viability, the vision and goals of our project, and our team. You don’t know me and it sounds like the extensive effort we’ve gone through to explain our project, how it’s unfolding, what it’s purposed to accomplish, etc. has (for most of you) had the opposite affect of what we’ve intended.(9) Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. My experience though is that it is much easier to sit on the sidelines and complain and criticize things than to take action and work on a solution, becoming the target of such criticism and cynicism. 

Knowing this is how it is, our ultimate goal is to be as transparent and detailed as possible as we produce open source starter resources and (eventually) a working prototype including all we’re developing. We invite anyone to join who wants to, don’t accept money to join us, promote and support our helpers as much as we can, integrate to the best of our ability feedback like what I’ve read here, and do our best to create for the good of all people and the planet. We open source it so others can take what they want and do it differently if they like.

Our belief is that by creating for what we feel is the “Highest Good” possible, we’re doing much better than the status quo, and anyone who runs with any of our ideas probably is going to create better than the current paradigm too. We see this as progress and believe that even if we fail to produce the working prototype, we’re still doing way more than the vast majority of organizations with similar goals. (10)

1 - Get a drink and get comfy kids, it's going to be a long one.

2 - I'll try to keep this to productive and fair questions, unless an easy or good joke arises.

3 - This is a long way to say you're redesigning the site, again, for what, the 4th or so time? Going through this many iterations of a website seems like not the most productive way to spend time. Fundraising, for example, may be a better activity.

4 - While the sentiment may be vaguely noble, there is a logically fallacy here. Are you aware of this?

5 - Right, the meat. Transparency and clarity. Have you published any financials yet? Have you taken any donations? What have those donations been spent on? Do you have an ongoing accountancy procedure for spending? Are the basic financial controls in place? What is the registered structure? Please provide full information that you would typically show a potential investor.

6 - Do you need me to explain why this is a problem? I really shouldn't have to. It's one of the main reasons I mentioned "Fundraising" as a priority as commitment to the cause is great but doesn't tend to put food in the fridge. For reference, I am more than qualified to undertake a few of the roles you advertise for, but I'm actually insulted that you think I, or anyone else, would be willing to commit unknown quantities of time to a project you don't even seem to be actively fundraising for. This raise further questions about what exactly have you achieved during the project period and other basic questions.

7 - It is a strong hallmark of a scam, to be fair. And you don't really offer any tangible benefits to offset it. How much business (as a figure) have your partners raised as a result of your marketing? How many leads? Conversion rate? Are any of these numbers above zero?

8 - Would you consider these criticisms fair? Do you consider yourself suitably qualified and experienced to run a project of this nature? What is your previous business experience and which companies can we look at for reference? 

9- Please confirm the full age of the project and milestone achievements to date. Please briefly outline financials for the same period and indicate spending.

10- Who are the orgs with similar goals? What have you accomplished in comparison to them?

I think that covers the main stuff, If I've missed anything important I'll be sure to cover it later.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 28, 2016, 01:29:40 am
So, as far as I can tell from the links you linked me, you don't have any funding at all towards the property as of yet, and the next crowdfunding campaign goal is to raise funds to build three domes within the same county as "the property" but still nothing to actually purchase said property with?

I just don't understand where you expect this sudden extremely large amount of funding to come from, whether 5 days from now or 10 years from now?   It's like you fully expect to get this one specific property and did all this research and stuff into it, but have no reason that I can see to think that much funding is even somewhat likely to come your way, ever.

Or did I miss something?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 28, 2016, 01:36:19 am
damn.  damn damn damn.

Thank you, but damn.  I really wanted to drink their kool-aid.  It looked so delicious.

Why does a simple idea like building a community around the idea of being as sustainable as possible, have to always be fucking bullshit artists and their magical thinking bullshit.

I wish I was better at seeing this shit for what it is.  Luckily you lot indulge me and save me a lot of frustration down the road.  Thanks.

Because real trained professionals who have degrees in things like urban planning, ecology, and sustainability get jobs with organizations that seek to increase sustainability practices in places people already live.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 01:59:44 am
1. Hopefully not, this is probably not as good a use of my time as redesigning the site, which you criticized in #3. I'll stick with it though as long as it is productive. The current site has now been updated to make it easier to find the most developed aspects of our project. 
2. Jokes expected based on what I've read so far
3. What we put time into is based on who we have volunteering to do the work. Right now we have someone willing to put time into redesign the site for us. This page discusses why we're not focusing more on seeking funding: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/one-community-now
4. Debating this point is probably not the best use of my time here
5. Our financials are not significant enough to warrant this yet and we don't have anyone volunteering to do the work. If you'd like to create something you'd be happy with, you are invited to join the team and do so. What you describe is something we want. Your comment on #6, however, makes it clear our project isn't something you'd wish to help with.
6. See link above for why focusing on fundraising is not the best use of our time right now. I understand that this is a reason you wouldn't desire to help us. I'm sorry this is somehow "insulting" to you. Our site and ongoing updates blog shares what we've achieved and are achieving.
7. Yes, volunteering with us has generated business for some of our partners. We also refer to the directly since none of us our operating as consultants. That said, the vast majority of people who volunteer with us aren't doing if for financial gain. Most people volunteer with us because they believe in what we're doing and want to help and/or they have free time and skills and are looking for a way to apply those skills beyond making up a project of their own.
8. I consider these criticisms fair. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You ask, "Do you consider yourself suitably qualified and experienced to run a project of this nature?" I'm the only one doing it. Anyone could take what we've done so far and do it themselves if they want. There are definitely people way more qualified than me, but they aren't doing the work. My feeling answering your questions is that I'm being interviewed by you for a job or large-scale funding and I'm guessing that is not the case and wondering what the value of this is for you or me. If you think we're a scam, I'm ok with that.
9. We've been working since 2010. We achieved non-profit status in 2011. Again, we're a 100% volunteer organization so the process has been much slower than if we were writing checks. Listing our milestones is truly not a good use of my time. Look at what we've created (now easier to find on the site) and if you like it, great. If not, that's ok too. The bottom line is we're a group doing something and organizing likeminded people. It sounds like we don't pass your criteria for evaluation. We're working to get there for you and others, but not there yet.
10. "Other orgs with similar goals" is something I'll leave for others to evaluate and list. This could be broken down into components like housing, food, etc. or evaluated based on global-change goals, or other criteria. I'm happy for all other groups taking action. What we've accomplished and are accomplishing is what our site is all about and how this compares to the projects of others is subjective.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 28, 2016, 02:06:52 am
Have you looked into Arcosanti? http://arcosanti.org/
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 02:18:25 am
Yes, two friends went and spent a month living and working there.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 28, 2016, 03:36:12 am
That tone rhymes with "Men Back".

CHRIST ON A STICK, what the HELL is wrong with you?  You lost your mind?    :eek:

Anyone who wants to know what he's talking about, PM LMNO or I.  Speak in pig latin.  And for fuck's sake repeat nothing in the open.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 28, 2016, 04:39:24 am
Yes, two friends went and spent a month living and working there.

Cool. What other hands-on research did you do before starting this endeavor? Is there a link to your CV on your website somewhere?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 05:47:36 am
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/jae-sabol

I articulated the goal and began the organization process but the project really isn't about me. We've had well over 200 volunteers contribute to the designs and development to this point. These are the most notable: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/collaborators/ There are many others who donated time anonymously or have contributed significantly with their questions, input, resource suggestions, or comments. This forum is a great example of that, leading to the changes in the homepage and Overview page. All questions and comments we receive by email or social media are also integrated when helpful.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 28, 2016, 06:41:13 am
I want you to succeed.  I really do.  However, there are just some things I believe will turn a lot of people away, many of the exact people that could help something like this the most.  For one, the extreme wordy buzzwordiness of much of the website.  It feels like some mandatory meeting bullshit at a corporate job, where some asshole who has never done my job preaches psuedoscience like Neuro-linguistic Programming at me.

I recommend trying to weed out as much of that vibe from the project as possible.  Personal beliefs aside, anything considered questionable, scientifically, should be avoided in the project.

Other than that I'd definitely place a more technological and engineering focus on the website as well.  Or maybe simply make a section dedicated to the technical minded.  I know quite a lot of highly creative and frankly quite brilliant science people that could offer all sorts of expertise if they can be convinced your project is based on sound thinking and realistic expectations.  Many of them right here in these forums.  Multiple in this very thread.

People can agree most to things at their most simple.  Using modern technology to build a sustainable community without sacrificing a high first-world standard of living is a very agreeable goal.

I just wish it could be that, exclusively.  When you tack on all the other stuff suddenly we have to accept your way of lots of things instead of just accepting a better way of building communities.  I have to take a class to understand what Consensus is?  Come on.

That said, it at least opens up the option of someone else creating such a community as a purely scientific endeavor, using the materials and resources One Community provides.  That part of what you call open source I'm 110% on board with.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 28, 2016, 07:17:26 am
Oh and the funding.  I really don't understand the funding.  I read more into it and from what I can tell, you're waiting for one wealthy entity with 10 million dollars to spend to suddenly get super excited about sustainable living, or you're expecting tons of people to crowd-fund a ton of money For The Highest Good Of All.  I just don't get which.  Or why that seems the logical thing to happen.

My concerns come out more negatively than I intend.  Let me put it this way.  If you could convince one specific person I know that this was a serious and profitable venture, he could likely arrange your funding.  All of it.  I'm not making any offers or anything, your website would absolutely turn him away, I'm just saying if you could convince someone like him, I would have a lot more faith in the project's financial prospects.  The idea of living without money is great, but until the whole world gets there the business plan for revenue has to be rock solid to warrant that level of investment.  And so does the credentials of everyone involved on the business end.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 28, 2016, 08:26:43 am
We're working on it. The toughest thing about our project is that opinions differ widely about how to proceed. In the case of the language of our site, there are those that say the exact opposite and actually think we should have a more "spiritual" tone. There are those who say we've got too much information and others who love that we have so much. There are those who hate all the imagery and those who think we should have more of it. I've also been approached by people saying they'd fund us if we made it a Christian venture. Others have said they'd fund us if we'd turn it into a clearly for-profit venture. We've had a couple people say they could fund us that turned out to not be real too. Most of those people have wasted a lot of time and clarified that we've got more work to do before we're ready to seriously seek funding.

Rewriting the site to eliminate our core value of "Highest Good" isn't something we're going to do but we encourage anyone who's interested to create something purely scientific if they like. My opinion is that we need a lot more people working to create more things that are open source and with positive intent. The more formats and the more diversity of how people choose to do this, the better. More options are needed since everyone has different opinions on how to do it, and what they want to focus on. Our project is just one example of how to do it and we've gone to great lengths to make it clear we're not trying to convert or convince anyone.

The redesign we're working on will segregate the philosophical/values-based aspects more. My purpose here hasn't been to debate these points though, or gather ideas for massive overhauls of how we're doing and/or presenting things. I came here just to clarify that we're real people doing real work and not a scam. We're not asking for money, are fully open source, non-profit, all-volunteer and not pushing any ideology, and we now have tens of thousands of work into the project.

If there are those who think it's something they want to participate in, we can use the help. For those who still want to bash me or the project, that's fine too. I'm just not sure what the point is since there's lots of organizations doing unarguably negative things and also not open source, non-profit, or all-volunteer. Those organization are, in my opinion, much more deserving of the negativity and bashing.

I'm signing off here now but can be reached through our site. I hope the time invested here was in some way helpful, your input was helpful to me.

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 09:04:37 am
Awake. Jae, if you wait a few hours I'll respond to your points. You've mainly raised more questions.

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 09:55:32 am



4. Debating this point is probably not the best use of my time here - - - It is worth noting the fallacy though. It's quite a problematic flaw.

5. Our financials are not significant enough to warrant this yet and we don't have anyone volunteering to do the work. If you'd like to create something you'd be happy with, you are invited to join the team and do so. What you describe is something we want. Your comment on #6, however, makes it clear our project isn't something you'd wish to help with.
  ----You've been running over 6 years and this aspect isn't in order? Do you have any idea how much more dodgy this response makes the whole thing look? It's a relatively simple and reasonable question. By not answering, you do have to ask about how you're currently supporting yourself and family with no donations coming in and putting so much time into this. Is the coaching money really good?


6. See link above for why focusing on fundraising is not the best use of our time right now. I understand that this is a reason you wouldn't desire to help us. I'm sorry this is somehow "insulting" to you. Our site and ongoing updates blog shares what we've achieved and are achieving.

    ---- It's Insulting because EVERYONE who has worked as any kind of consultant, for any length of time, will have had so many offers to work for free that it just gets you quite jaded. You need people who are actually skilled and committed for 40+ hours a week on a regular basis to make shit happen. Deal with the world as it is and you know you need money to accomplish practically everything at this stage. A noble goal will remain that unless you take practical steps towards this, like funding.

Give this context. From your figures, the project has had over 200 involved and around 10K man hours, over six years. I could break that down for you a little more, but you can surely see the math. Even still, over that period if it was staged somewhat correctly this would at least be in a viable position to move forward. (FYI, about me - I've been dealing with small/medium/international/NGO business for about 15 years, mainly fixing idiot organisational issues, fuckups and generally getting shit done. This is why when I see responses like some of these I don't think you're really interested in pushing this unless magic crowdfunding money drops into your hands. Instead, you're helping people pad their CV until an actual job comes along and then they just drop away. Strange how unpaid interns lack loyalty to the cause.


 

7. Yes, volunteering with us has generated business for some of our partners. We also refer to the directly since none of us our operating as consultants. That said, the vast majority of people who volunteer with us aren't doing if for financial gain. Most people volunteer with us because they believe in what we're doing and want to help and/or they have free time and skills and are looking for a way to apply those skills beyond making up a project of their own.

---- Well, can we get some figures and numbers? If you can demonstrate that you're at least building some kind of mutual business network then you might just be able to ask people to help you and actually show a bit of that win-win you keep mentioning. 

8. I consider these criticisms fair. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You ask, "Do you consider yourself suitably qualified and experienced to run a project of this nature?" I'm the only one doing it. Anyone could take what we've done so far and do it themselves if they want. There are definitely people way more qualified than me, but they aren't doing the work. My feeling answering your questions is that I'm being interviewed by you for a job or large-scale funding and I'm guessing that is not the case and wondering what the value of this is for you or me. If you think we're a scam, I'm ok with that.

---- I'll work pro-bono in the right situation, and with the right people. I honestly don't think you've had any dealings with the construction sectors and hard realities when actually kicking off a project. You've got pretty much no history or experience with this kind of stuff. I'm not saying that stops you, it's just going to be a challenge for every professional you work with when shit doesn't work out quite as planned.

And again, the people more qualified than you are doing the work. They're just getting paid for it instead of making videos about it.

9. We've been working since 2010. We achieved non-profit status in 2011. Again, we're a 100% volunteer organization so the process has been much slower than if we were writing checks. Listing our milestones is truly not a good use of my time. Look at what we've created (now easier to find on the site) and if you like it, great. If not, that's ok too. The bottom line is we're a group doing something and organizing likeminded people. It sounds like we don't pass your criteria for evaluation. We're working to get there for you and others, but not there yet.

 - -- 6 years. I wasn't asking for much here, just a few big achievements. You shouldn't be shy about your achievements, you're going to need to shout about them in order to make progress. First follower and all that. What have you actually done?

I saw something about a crowdfunding campaign towards the end of the year (Hopefully!). Are you actually serious? Does someone need to light a fire under your arse to give you some kind of sense of urgency?


10. "Other orgs with similar goals" is something I'll leave for others to evaluate and list. This could be broken down into components like housing, food, etc. or evaluated based on global-change goals, or other criteria. I'm happy for all other groups taking action. What we've accomplished and are accomplishing is what our site is all about and how this compares to the projects of others is subjective.

- - Again, can I have a couple of names/examples? Nigel had one, they've built something.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 10:19:03 am
Also, last thing:

Quote
If you think we're a scam, I'm ok with that.

Holy fuck.

This..... this is not a good response. I assure you, you do not want to be OK with people thinking your non-profit is a scam. This is the kind of thing lawyers would suggest you object to because otherwise it makes it all look like a massive scam.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2016, 02:11:28 pm
Incidentally, I had a quick look at "Man Sack". What an astonishing prick. A marketer who writes a book like "What would bill hicks say" and not one of you came up with the fact that he would scream at him to kill himself for being a marketer? Poor show.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 28, 2016, 11:23:00 pm
http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/jae-sabol

I articulated the goal and began the organization process but the project really isn't about me. We've had well over 200 volunteers contribute to the designs and development to this point. These are the most notable: http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/collaborators/ There are many others who donated time anonymously or have contributed significantly with their questions, input, resource suggestions, or comments. This forum is a great example of that, leading to the changes in the homepage and Overview page. All questions and comments we receive by email or social media are also integrated when helpful.

That's not really a CV: it doesn't detail your experience in any meaningful way. It is very, very vague, and just says that you have all this experience without actually outlining any of it at all. There are no names, dates, position titles, responsibilities, or accomplishments listed, as one would expect of a professional CV. One of the things that I am having a hard time with regarding your project has nothing to do with any concern that it's a scam, but rather, that it seems very pie-in-the-sky; much more like you are designing a fantasy role-playing game than an actual community that will manifest in real life. The fact that you have plans for a whole city, but haven't actualized so much as a pilot community, makes it seem much more like playacting than a serious endeavor.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 28, 2016, 11:36:56 pm
A note: Jae, we are not attacking because we want to tear your project down. We are probing for relevant information because you have caught our interest. The questions that are being asked here are questions that your organization should have answers to, as they are questions that any serious potential partner or donor will ask.

If this organization is more than just a website fueled by youthful pipe dreams, you will want and need to be prepared to answer these kinds of questions. You will want to prepare a real, professional CV with names, dates, and references, that tells prospective partners who you are and what your experience is. I have a degree in sustainability, among others, and there are many existing communities out there in the world that are doing similar things to what you would like to accomplish, but on a small scale. That is something that you will probably need to do - or at least to visit to gain experience and references - before you are able to convince donors to give you money to buy land. Just saying "I have lots of experience doing this" is not enough; you need to detail your experience in a professional way.

I like your ideas, but I have to tell you, right now your website looks like children playacting.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: JaeSabol on July 29, 2016, 06:55:54 pm
I appreciate the feedback and will integrate it to the best of my ability.

I'll give you equally candid feedback. This feels more like trolling than an attempt to be constructive or helpful. Your guys' attitude towards me and and the project, including repeated profanity, personal attacks and questions that go far beyond focusing on facts and data, and general rudeness lead me to believe you'll never be satisfied with my answers.

I'll keep working. If you run into others like me actually getting things done and working to create a better world, I hope your approach will be more constructive. If it is, you'll probably maintain a more receptive audience. Reading your replies, I think there's more abuse here than help and I'm returning to focusing on what needs to be done rather than continue to participate here. As I said, I'll integrate what you've said though. Thank you for the input.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on July 29, 2016, 07:04:39 pm
As a wise man once said, "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence."

The burden is on you to provide.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 29, 2016, 07:07:54 pm
WAH I SHOWED UP IN SOMEONE ELSE'S SPACE AND THEY DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY SUCK MY FUTURIST DICK.


Title: Re: One Community
Post by: trix on July 29, 2016, 07:33:58 pm
I appreciate the feedback and will integrate it to the best of my ability.

I'll give you equally candid feedback. This feels more like trolling than an attempt to be constructive or helpful. Your guys' attitude towards me and and the project, including repeated profanity, personal attacks and questions that go far beyond focusing on facts and data, and general rudeness lead me to believe you'll never be satisfied with my answers.

I'll keep working. If you run into others like me actually getting things done and working to create a better world, I hope your approach will be more constructive. If it is, you'll probably maintain a more receptive audience. Reading your replies, I think there's more abuse here than help and I'm returning to focusing on what needs to be done rather than continue to participate here. As I said, I'll integrate what you've said though. Thank you for the input.

I think part of this is not quite understanding where you are.  This may be my mistake, as I should have warned you when I sent you the link. 

I appreciate you taking the time to come here and respond directly.  Try to see each persons response individually, as this is a place that contains many who love to troll.

As someone who is much more familiar with the general nature of this forum, I can tell you that your reception here is surprisingly positive.  Several highly respected members that are experts in areas your project needs experts in, have shown interest in this.  Many others are highly skeptical and even offensive, yes, me included, but that's the internet and it shouldn't stop you.

I will continue to watch the progress and see if anything happens, but if you really want this thing to be successful, or at least to maximize the chances, many of the questions that you haven't answered should be answered before people seriously consider contributing time or money to your project.

I understand you are busy and thus unlikely to take the time to really understand your audience here, but believe me when I tell you it is larger, more diverse, and made up of many more professionals and experts than you likely realize.  If you were able to truly satisfy the questions of many of those here and convince a few of the right folks I think you'd be very surprised at the result.

---

If Jae flounced well, I suppose we tried.  I agree with Nigel that it's probably not a scam, and I also believe there is probably a lot of people involved who take it completely seriously and will do whatever it takes to get it going.

I just don't see their approach to funding as something that seems like it would work out.  They admit to needing millions of dollars, that's the part that gets me, yet the questions here about financial specifics go unanswered.  I get the impression that out of all their volunteers, they don't have enough business professionals or folks that know how to prepare the information being requested.  Maybe that's the problem.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2016, 07:38:26 pm
For absence of doubt and total clarity, I'm not trolling.

Your answers lack any substance to relatively simple questions. Answers provided raise red flags like drunk day at NASCAR.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 29, 2016, 11:13:19 pm
When criticism and/or questions are taken as trolling, I assume up front that something religious is going on, and I lose interest.  And that's what happened right there.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on July 30, 2016, 12:24:36 am
I checked out the website a few years ago,  they were keeping the location secret because planning to buy then.  If you can't get a piece of land bought in a few years then I am doubtful as to your ability to do anything other than make a confusing website.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on July 30, 2016, 12:50:28 am
Buying land is not hard to do, for someone middle class.  There is an absurd amount of really cheap land in the SW which is all really nicely suited to solar power, and which is also in a climate that works really well with earth based construction (Adobe or earthbag)  it's also a great area for figuring out water sustainability.  It's what I am most aware of since I live in the SW but there is cheap land all over the country and that they haven't bought any yet is a pretty huge red flag.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 30, 2016, 05:57:10 pm
I appreciate the feedback and will integrate it to the best of my ability.

I'll give you equally candid feedback. This feels more like trolling than an attempt to be constructive or helpful. Your guys' attitude towards me and and the project, including repeated profanity, personal attacks and questions that go far beyond focusing on facts and data, and general rudeness lead me to believe you'll never be satisfied with my answers.

I'll keep working. If you run into others like me actually getting things done and working to create a better world, I hope your approach will be more constructive. If it is, you'll probably maintain a more receptive audience. Reading your replies, I think there's more abuse here than help and I'm returning to focusing on what needs to be done rather than continue to participate here. As I said, I'll integrate what you've said though. Thank you for the input.

Oh, yes, of course. That makes perfect sense. We somehow lured you here to troll you by asking critical, probing questions about your project. Makes perfect sense, and is much, much easier than answering the questions or asking yourself whether the criticisms are valid and might help your project.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 30, 2016, 06:09:57 pm
For absence of doubt and total clarity, I'm not trolling.

Your answers lack any substance to relatively simple questions. Answers provided raise red flags like drunk day at NASCAR.

I kind of want to link him to a real CV. It's possible that he doesn't know what one looks like. Also to some of the many small communities around the world who are already doing what he wants to do, but on a small scale. I would normally anticipate that someone spearheading such a project would already be familiar with many ongoing sustainability projects and have worked for or with several of them, but since he doesn't have a CV I can't tell who he's worked with or what his experience is.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 30, 2016, 06:15:11 pm
I have to say, if this feels like trolling he probably shouldn't apply for any grants (of which there are many out there - I wonder if he is aware of this or has grantwriting experience?) because they will be much harder on him when they return his grant proposal the first time.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 31, 2016, 07:05:19 am
I checked out the website a few years ago,  they were keeping the location secret because planning to buy then.  If you can't get a piece of land bought in a few years then I am doubtful as to your ability to do anything other than make a confusing website.

who?  The Citadel, or these guys?   :lulz:

Any time - EVERY time - a group decides to buy land to sequester themselves on, the outcome is either hilariously awful (hello, Jonestown!) or nothing happens at all.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 31, 2016, 07:07:30 am
Buying land is not hard to do, for someone middle class.  There is an absurd amount of really cheap land in the SW which is all really nicely suited to solar power, and which is also in a climate that works really well with earth based construction (Adobe or earthbag)  it's also a great area for figuring out water sustainability.  It's what I am most aware of since I live in the SW but there is cheap land all over the country and that they haven't bought any yet is a pretty huge red flag.

Land is cheap here because it's EVIL and nothing grows1 and EVERYBODY DIES.



1 At least not without a water deficit from hell.  You see all those cotton farms up by Gila Bend?  That's why both major rivers are empty.  well, that and a 6:1 actual-to-sustainable population.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 11:01:44 am
I have to say, if this feels like trolling he probably shouldn't apply for any grants (of which there are many out there - I wonder if he is aware of this or has grantwriting experience?) because they will be much harder on him when they return his grant proposal the first time.

They'd laugh him out the door based on the financial information and statements alone. Hence the reliance on volunteers and eventual crowdfunding. There's the other slightly problematic issue where it's all totally not a scam (Which isn't even strongly denied), funders/investors and the like have a bit of experience in spotting possible flaws so they don't just piss all their money away. It's why they like plans, projections and actual steps towards the goal to be demonstrated.

This guy has been trying to buy the same bit of land in this "high value tourist trap" for many years.
Q If said land is this desirable, and there's that much demand(Local places booked out 6 months ahead, guests by default!) , why hasn't any random chain thing grabbed it?
A Because it isn't any of the above. Or just simply does not exist.

It's almost tempting to sign his NDA because I expect it has the legal weight of "please don't". If it exists at all.

 
Quote
the outcome is either hilariously awful (hello, Jonestown!)

That's almost worth a list and thread of it's own. There's many examples and they all go wrong in spectacular ways.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 02:23:38 pm
When criticism and/or questions are taken as trolling, I assume up front that something religious is going on, and I lose interest.  And that's what happened right there.

That would still make this a type 4. If anyone thinks otherwise, I have national monuments for sale, very cheap, transportation included.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on July 31, 2016, 09:34:22 pm
Buying land is not hard to do, for someone middle class.  There is an absurd amount of really cheap land in the SW which is all really nicely suited to solar power, and which is also in a climate that works really well with earth based construction (Adobe or earthbag)  it's also a great area for figuring out water sustainability.  It's what I am most aware of since I live in the SW but there is cheap land all over the country and that they haven't bought any yet is a pretty huge red flag.

Land is cheap here because it's EVIL and nothing grows1 and EVERYBODY DIES.



1 At least not without a water deficit from hell.  You see all those cotton farms up by Gila Bend?  That's why both major rivers are empty.  well, that and a 6:1 actual-to-sustainable population.

That's why it's a great place to work on sustainable water use.  It's a sort of a forced crisis situation and there are a lot of ways to address it.  Rainwater harvesting during monsoon, aquaponics, greywater, waterless toilets among other options.  An intentional community could figure out how to live on the rather small amount of rainwater and their techniques could be used by the larger population.  The larger population isn't really trying at all, as far as I can tell. 
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 01, 2016, 05:18:48 am
Rainwater harvesting during monsoon

Aquifers?  who needs 'em?  Dude, out on Sandario road there are artificial lakes designed solely to shove water deep underground.  which is water management, but the exact opposite of everyone collecting their own rainwater and dying of fowleri or e colli.

Quote
waterless toilets among other options.

we have those on the mountain.  It's roughly the same as pissing in the corner of your office, and cleaning them out takes water and loads and loads of bleach.

 
Quote
An intentional community could figure out how to live on the rather small amount of rainwater and their techniques could be used by the larger population.  The larger population isn't really trying at all, as far as I can tell.

Of course they aren't.  Because nobody is making them do it (yet).  However, I am going to file the idea of 6 million people collecting their own water (just in the two major cities), for my future efforts in eradicating the puny humans.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on August 01, 2016, 07:55:42 pm
I dunno.  Id like to see people trying.  Actually, I do see people trying, there's a few intentional communities in the area, they just don't do the sort of publicity that One Community does.  Observation seems to imply that the more likely a group of people is to actually be doing worthwhile work in this area is, the less likely they are to have extensively documented it.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 02, 2016, 06:11:00 pm
I dunno.  Id like to see people trying.  Actually, I do see people trying, there's a few intentional communities in the area, they just don't do the sort of publicity that One Community does.  Observation seems to imply that the more likely a group of people is to actually be doing worthwhile work in this area is, the less likely they are to have extensively documented it.

This is true. Usually the people actually building and living in experimental sustainable communities have far more people skilled at building community systems, and fewer people skilled at (or with the time to work on) outreach and PR. Thing is, you really need both, but it's probably more effective to start out with more doers and fewer promoters than it is to go at it the other way around.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 02, 2016, 06:38:03 pm
The thing is, there are SO many experimental communities around the world... it makes me wonder what, exactly, the brainstormers of One Community consider truly unique about their vision, especially given that they haven't actually implemented any of it yet? Of course, I'm sure that question would be considered "trolling", but I just am not seeing any convincing reason funders would want to back their experiment vs., for example, Findhorn Ecovillage, which seems based on essentially the same principles but has actually been putting them into practice for the last 30-odd years. http://www.ecovillagefindhorn.com/
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 02, 2016, 06:43:24 pm
Of course, though, as I mentioned before, most sustainability efforts and money are currently focused not on communes and other experimental communities, but on finding ways to make existing population centers more sustainable, because they are going to continue to exist as major population centers for the foreseeable future. http://www.sustainable.org/
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on August 02, 2016, 06:44:34 pm
Personally and without empiric evidence, I would opine that a self-sustainable community is not inherently scalable: The human race did well with between (total guess) 50 and 100 people, having enough diversity for some to partially specialize (hunter, thatcher, miller, various other ancient surnames), but being flexible enough to cover or support others in times of crisis; and also the communal ability to establish tribal codes of conduct ("social contract") so that being a dick to someone was being a dick to everyone.

Announcing a (relatively) new, massive community without nods or counterarguments to anthropology seems... reckless.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 07:11:27 pm
Personally and without empiric evidence, I would opine that a self-sustainable community is not inherently scalable: The human race did well with between (total guess) 50 and 100 people, having enough diversity for some to partially specialize (hunter, thatcher, miller, various other ancient surnames), but being flexible enough to cover or support others in times of crisis; and also the communal ability to establish tribal codes of conduct ("social contract") so that being a dick to someone was being a dick to everyone.

Announcing a (relatively) new, massive community without nods or counterarguments to anthropology seems... reckless.

One pig's shit fertilizes a garden.  1000 pigs make the infamous toxic poop bubbles in the vat liner, and the new guy has to shoot it with a shotgun.

I really wish I was making that up.

Anyway, the world can at present allow a population of 2 billion people more or less indefinitely.  We have 7.5 billion people, and we add a net 200 people per minute (and that is with the declining birth rate.).  Almost every problem we face has the same root cause:  too many primates.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on August 02, 2016, 07:22:16 pm
Can we adjust for technology?  Not sure how, but I was under the impression the Malthusian catastrophe was countered with the debunking of static assumptions about the amount of resources in a given unit of material available.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 07:29:13 pm
Can we adjust for technology?  Not sure how, but I was under the impression the Malthusian catastrophe was countered with the debunking of static assumptions about the amount of resources in a given unit of material available.

The Malthusian catastrophe was based on raising food.  We can raise food for 17 billion people (for a given value of food), and we can transport food for 10 billion people (both assuming current technologies and the will do to so, which is obviously not there in a free market environment).

The problem is waste disposal and energy generation.  Good old Malthus was in no position to imagine a society so "successful" that it had nowhere to put its poop.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 07:30:24 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 02, 2016, 07:35:45 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.

That's got the feel of a larger piece. Are you inclined and/or may I?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 09:34:36 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.

That's got the feel of a larger piece. Are you inclined and/or may I?

Go for it.  I was going to approach waste disposal a bit more, but I'd also like to see what you have to say.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on August 02, 2016, 10:06:19 pm
Waste disposal, in particular poop, feels like a drastically neglected area in futuristic thought.  May be because I haven't dived in deeply enough but I see a lot on energy generation, food production, water purification, and very little on dealing with poo.  Considering that we can actually generate methane from poop this seems like a field that could use a lot more exploration.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on August 02, 2016, 10:13:55 pm
Waste disposal, in particular poop, feels like a drastically neglected area in futuristic thought.  May be because I haven't dived in deeply enough but I see a lot on energy generation, food production, water purification, and very little on dealing with poo.  Considering that we can actually generate methane from poop this seems like a field that could use a lot more exploration.

If you could then turn the methane into longer-chain molecules you could make plastic out of poop.
That is probably expensive.

EDIT: Apparently not. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newlight_Technologies) I wonder if they have patented the technique.

Incineration? That commune dude could have an eco shit incineration unit and harvest the heat. Spread the ash on crops maybe?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 10:52:33 pm
Waste disposal, in particular poop, feels like a drastically neglected area in futuristic thought.  May be because I haven't dived in deeply enough but I see a lot on energy generation, food production, water purification, and very little on dealing with poo.  Considering that we can actually generate methane from poop this seems like a field that could use a lot more exploration.

It isn't neglected.  It is in fact one of the biggest civil engineering subjects going.  Moving shit faster - and what to do with it - is the single biggest concern urbanists have.  I mentioned some numbers in the OP, and that's just for NYC.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 02, 2016, 10:53:42 pm
Waste disposal, in particular poop, feels like a drastically neglected area in futuristic thought.  May be because I haven't dived in deeply enough but I see a lot on energy generation, food production, water purification, and very little on dealing with poo.  Considering that we can actually generate methane from poop this seems like a field that could use a lot more exploration.

If you could then turn the methane into longer-chain molecules you could make plastic out of poop.
That is probably expensive.

EDIT: Apparently not. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newlight_Technologies) I wonder if they have patented the technique.

Incineration? That commune dude could have an eco shit incineration unit and harvest the heat. Spread the ash on crops maybe?

I don't think you guys realize just how much shit is generated how fast. 

We are not talking about a mere few million gallons, here.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on August 02, 2016, 11:41:33 pm
Waste disposal, in particular poop, feels like a drastically neglected area in futuristic thought.  May be because I haven't dived in deeply enough but I see a lot on energy generation, food production, water purification, and very little on dealing with poo.  Considering that we can actually generate methane from poop this seems like a field that could use a lot more exploration.

If you could then turn the methane into longer-chain molecules you could make plastic out of poop.
That is probably expensive.

EDIT: Apparently not. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newlight_Technologies) I wonder if they have patented the technique.

Incineration? That commune dude could have an eco shit incineration unit and harvest the heat. Spread the ash on crops maybe?

On the small scale the process of methane extraction tends to kill off the dangerous pathogens, so you end up with something that can be used as fertilizer without incineration.  Poop isn't the best fuel because it is all wet, so you'd have to extract the water first.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on August 03, 2016, 07:57:18 am
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2016, 04:16:35 pm
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?

It's a mix of treatment plants and good old fashioned "pump it out to sea". Or into a local river.

 
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 03, 2016, 04:18:54 pm
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?

What Junkenstein just said.

And even where it's done properly, everything is running at or near capacity and a really good rainstorm can make everyone's week better.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2016, 04:42:21 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.

Stepping away from shit for a moment, I think it's worth a quick look at why there are so many monkeys and why this is unlikely to slow down at all for the reasons Roger mentions. The short version is that all the problems you see in western countries in these regards are magnified in developing countries and the results are pretty fucked up.

I'm quite sure we can gloss over the Religious push for MORE MONKEYS. If anyone is unfamiliar with, say, catholic attitudes and subsequent issues in parts of Africa, this is not the thread to read really. The simple logic behind most religions pushing having kids, particularly multiple kids and making a big issue of this is that it simply grows the following at a basic level. Funding and expansion follows. It's logic seen in many places and it just gets a slightly different spin on it.

This religious drive and the money it generates also benefits most nation states with increased GDP and such. A viable tax base is needed to just keep basic shit going. If you want to upgrade anything, you need a larger base. This kind of logic becomes hilarious in places like the UK where you have an ageing population so political parties on both sides realise that you need bodies replacing these. You then see this implemented as de-facto policy where there's no actual change to legislation despite propaganda suggesting otherwise would occur. I'd expect to see "Have more kids" kind of propaganda to start up in the UK the second any actual restrictions are put in place.

The cultural needs for MORE MONKEYS vary vastly on the culture, though the end result is pretty much the same. "The more of US there are, the safer we are from THEM". "Them", depending on the culture could mean (non)government forces, disease and famine or local militants or nutters. Being able to confront THEM with MORE MONKEYS than they have has historically meant victory. After all, you're dealing with Monkeys now that have been honed to a killer edge over multiple thousand years of war, famine, plague and all other manner of horrors. However bad you think anywhere may be now, it's a playground compared to the place 200 years ago.

If nothing else, just consider the smell 200 years ago.


That's a broad brush of why some places/people feel that they need MORE MONKEYS. The question is how do we convince such people it's not required?

For the religious, there's pretty much no hope. You're dealing with a belief structure that's usually quite inflexible and not particularly open to logic. If this was not the case then the Pope would have been handing out rubbers in Africa for decades. As it stands, Africa is one of the places where the catholic church is consistently growing.

Economically, there's not much hope either. The UK needs fresh meat, as does the USA. Even France and Germany need it to some extent though they are better at hiding taking it in. Germany's willingness to accept refugees, for example, serves the national interest to a considerable degree with a new pile of potential tax income. Investment in refugees now is a direct increase in GDP for them in 5-10 years after they're established. Rewards will come in the interim too as they are granted permission to work (and therefore, pay tax) along the way.

Culturally, you may actually have a chance. Provided you can actually convince people that you don't have to do shit the way it's always been done and that THEY are not about to fuck everything up and kill everyone you know. So, you know, good luck with that. I hear people are open to change. 
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: LMNO on August 03, 2016, 06:05:49 pm
There's also a biological component, I think, Nigel may need to correct me.

In countries where biological priorities are met, populations decrease in general, and in countries where they don't, they increase. I think.

This is because infant mortality has been a big thing for millions of years, and isn't gonna get shut off by short term consequences like "drowning in one's own shit." As far as I know. 

This also isn't anyone's fault. Humans have sped up environmental change, and evolution doesn't care about keeping up.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2016, 06:30:09 pm
Quote
This is because infant mortality has been a big thing for millions of years, and isn't gonna get shut off by short term consequences like "drowning in one's own shit." As far as I know. 

There is the element which I didn't want to get too deeply into. I think it's largely a societal issue and I'm pretty sure it drops when ante-natal care improves in a community. I'd defer to Nigel for specific things, but I'm pretty sure there's a few studies showing that access to midwife kind of services results in a surprising amount of positive things. Often just basic health and hygiene care/advice can seriously alter the quality of life in a community.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 03, 2016, 10:35:30 pm
http://www.un.org/press/en/2011/pop994.doc.htm
Quote
Higher levels of education, particularly among girls, had a strong correlation to declining fertility and better development outcomes, delegates and experts said today as the Commission on Population and Development continued its forty-fourth session.


“More education translates into better health outcomes in all societies,” said Abulkalam Abdul Momen ( Bangladesh), Vice-President of the United Nations Economic and Social Council, as he opened the Commission’s general debate on the contribution of population and development issues to the theme for the Council’s 2011 Annual Ministerial Review.  He added that educated women were better able to plan their families and more aware of employment, schooling and health opportunities for themselves and their children.  On a wider level, fewer children in a society meant that more resources were available to every individual child, he said.

There's plenty more on the same general terms, but the basics are you improve education specifically for women and birth rates plummet. Malala Yousafzai could be the human most likely to save all our asses from extinction.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 03, 2016, 10:49:56 pm
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?

Here, we treat it, dry it, and spread it on grazing land as fertilizer.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 03, 2016, 11:05:30 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.

Stepping away from shit for a moment, I think it's worth a quick look at why there are so many monkeys and why this is unlikely to slow down at all for the reasons Roger mentions.

Not to nitpick, but the population growth rate has slowed down quite a lot since it peaked in 1968, probably mostly due to increasing standards of living and education for women. http://blogs.worldbank.org/futuredevelopment/rapid-slowdown-population-growth

(http://blogs.worldbank.org/futuredevelopment/files/futuredevelopment/Last%20pic%20for%20dramatic%20slowdown%20post.jpg)

Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 03, 2016, 11:13:30 pm
There's also a biological component, I think, Nigel may need to correct me.

In countries where biological priorities are met, populations decrease in general, and in countries where they don't, they increase. I think.

This is because infant mortality has been a big thing for millions of years, and isn't gonna get shut off by short term consequences like "drowning in one's own shit." As far as I know. 

This also isn't anyone's fault. Humans have sped up environmental change, and evolution doesn't care about keeping up.

It's largely a combination of factors that include:

1. Post-agricultural lifestyles, such that a large number of progeny to work the land are no longer needed
2. Resultant freedom of women to serve in roles other than broodmare
3. Increased options in life for both men and women (see also education)
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2016, 11:50:53 pm
There are plenty of ideas of how to counter this, but the most effective one is "less primates".  The principle bar to that is religious, economic, and cultural demands for large families.

Stepping away from shit for a moment, I think it's worth a quick look at why there are so many monkeys and why this is unlikely to slow down at all for the reasons Roger mentions.

Not to nitpick, but the population growth rate has slowed down quite a lot since it peaked in 1968, probably mostly due to increasing standards of living and education for women. http://blogs.worldbank.org/futuredevelopment/rapid-slowdown-population-growth

(http://blogs.worldbank.org/futuredevelopment/files/futuredevelopment/Last%20pic%20for%20dramatic%20slowdown%20post.jpg)

The more you know. Appreciated, will take a look.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 04, 2016, 02:36:21 am
http://www.un.org/press/en/2011/pop994.doc.htm
Quote
Higher levels of education, particularly among girls, had a strong correlation to declining fertility and better development outcomes, delegates and experts said today as the Commission on Population and Development continued its forty-fourth session.


“More education translates into better health outcomes in all societies,” said Abulkalam Abdul Momen ( Bangladesh), Vice-President of the United Nations Economic and Social Council, as he opened the Commission’s general debate on the contribution of population and development issues to the theme for the Council’s 2011 Annual Ministerial Review.  He added that educated women were better able to plan their families and more aware of employment, schooling and health opportunities for themselves and their children.  On a wider level, fewer children in a society meant that more resources were available to every individual child, he said.

There's plenty more on the same general terms, but the basics are you improve education specifically for women and birth rates plummet. Malala Yousafzai could be the human most likely to save all our asses from extinction.

It's also just flat-out worth doing on its own merits.

The idea that women are not as capable as men is, to me, like saying that the luminous aether is a thing.  It's  hundred years ago, and a hundred years ago sucked monkey balls (and, of course, mustard gas).
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 04, 2016, 02:38:58 am

Stepping away from shit for a moment, I think it's worth a quick look at why there are so many monkeys and why this is unlikely to slow down at all for the reasons Roger mentions.

Actually, I believe I said the rate of growth is in fact declining, but the absolute number of humans still means there's a net increase of 200 humans per minute at the current rate.

If I was unclear, I apologize.  If I am remembering it incorrectly then I am senile and will be happy to fling my own feces at you.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Junkenstein on August 04, 2016, 03:05:37 pm

Stepping away from shit for a moment, I think it's worth a quick look at why there are so many monkeys and why this is unlikely to slow down at all for the reasons Roger mentions.

Actually, I believe I said the rate of growth is in fact declining, but the absolute number of humans still means there's a net increase of 200 humans per minute at the current rate.

If I was unclear, I apologize.  If I am remembering it incorrectly then I am senile and will be happy to fling my own feces at you.

Feces flinging not required, I misunderstood and went off in completely the wrong direction.

Reading and reassessing, as usual there's more shit to learn.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: freshmeat on August 06, 2016, 04:12:40 pm
So I searched these forums but was unable to find a thread on this topic so here's one.

At onecommunityglobal.com they are attempting to create a sort of Venus Project / Zeitgeist sustainable community that is both a tourist attraction and an example of modern living in comfort while using only sustainable technology.  I've spent a couple weeks reading nearly everything on their website, which is a LOT of reading and researching, and I have to say I very much like this project

However, some of the terminology they've invented and the way a lot of their ideas are presented makes me a bit... hesitant.  They seem rather heavily Holistic / PETA-ish in their way of addressing many things.  Maybe I'm just knee-jerking to the word "Holistic" and certain terms like "The Highest Good Of All" which reminds me of Grindlewald from the Harry Potter universe. ("The Greatest Good!")

I'm curious as to what the people here may think, being somewhat better than me at spotting bullshit disguised as goodness.

 - trix

Thanx for the thread, trix. Just saw it this AM and read the first page of replies.

It seems obvious to me that the purpose for the elaborate web site is either to attract enrollees or to attract crowdfunding.

Oddly I arrived at a position in life wherein I am currently in the process of developing a similar community. At least similar in concept.

I purchased a large piece of land in an impossibly remote location and have gathered a small crew of candidates who want to collectively develop it as a community. The land is so remote that it really isn't even practical to inhabit it unless you import a community to share it with you.

I will be perusing the site to learn what I can from their preps and organization. Thanks again!
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Pergamos on August 06, 2016, 06:51:09 pm
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?

Here, we treat it, dry it, and spread it on grazing land as fertilizer.

I am strongly in favor of this.  Poop is a valuable resource, it is excellent fertilizer.  I think we should be getting the methane out too.  It's a dirty process, but a lot cleaner than fracking.
Title: Re: One Community
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 07, 2016, 05:12:03 am
What happens to everyone's shit at the moment?

Do we just bury it?

Here, we treat it, dry it, and spread it on grazing land as fertilizer.

I am strongly in favor of this.  Poop is a valuable resource, it is excellent fertilizer.  I think we should be getting the methane out too.  It's a dirty process, but a lot cleaner than fracking.

Using shit as food for methanogens doesn't extract something poop already contains, it uses the poop as a carbon source to feed microbes that synthesize methane as a metabolic byproduct. There are various ways to recycle the energy in shit, some are simply more efficient than others.