Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 06:30:09 pm

Title: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 06:30:09 pm
Chewing on this today. This was introduced to me as:

"#altwoke is to eris as redpill is to kek."

http://tripleampersand.org/alt-woke-manifesto/
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 06:30:44 pm
#AltWoke™: Left Hand Praxis
Lawful Neutral
Infrastructure building
Stacktivism
Political reformatting
Rationalism
Urbanism
Globalism

#AltWoke: Right Hand Praxis
Chaotic Good
Disruptive compliance
Troll farm astroturfing
Hacktivism
Nonlinear cyberwarfare
Post irony
Memes as agitprop internetism

Ten Commandments of #AltWoke
1. If you’re still ‘Woke,’ you're actually asleep.
2. Post-shame is the child of post-facts. Be immune to criticism.
3. Build the Cathedral 2.0
4. Read Baudrillard while scrolling Kim K’s feed. Repeat until you understand.
5. If you think intersectionality is a numbers game, then you're doing identity politics wrong.
6. #BlackPopMatters
7. Be the amoral Leftists the Right thinks you are.
8. Let a thousand detournements bloom, make them viral, infect the Swamp.
9. Xenophilia. Love the alien, difference, and experimentation.
10.Be vague. Frustrate the critics, entice the curious.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: MithridatesXXIII on April 13, 2017, 06:42:08 pm
Wokeness is a millennialization of having escaped Plato's Cave. Claiming as such is probably the best evidence that you bought and paid for a personal matryoshka-style matrix.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: LMNO on April 13, 2017, 06:56:28 pm
Sounds nice, but that still sounds like a way to avoid the meaning of #woke.

As in, it's hard enough to make people respect the Other; this appears to be away of avoiding that, and going an easier, less meaningful way.


Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 07:28:44 pm
Something about embracing "post-truth" as such sticks in my craw. So does comparing Manning and Snowden as just two peas in this particular pod.

As a strategy "against" the alt-right I'm unconvinced that ensconcing Eris as an opponent of Kuk is wise. As much as they'd like to believe themselves to be steadily taking over the obsolete and toothless 'ol GOP they're NOT really anywhere near as successful at that as they might wish folks to believe. Shit if anything they could use an enemy in the shadows to galvanize their soft ass "coalition" and spur activity through a competitor.


That said I do agree in large part with some of the "LHP" methodology here as a means to gain leverage, particularly hijacking multinational corporatism.

There's a LOT to be chewing on here before I say anything defintive, but my impression for now is just this and that perhaps seeking to destabilize the "middle" and castle up like the guys on the other side of the board that have painted themselves into an ideological corner are doing is not in fact the best strategy just now nor Eris a wise choice of figurehead.

Now Kukmeht, the Night... mayhap.  :evil:
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 07:38:07 pm
Something about embracing "post-truth" as such sticks in my craw. So does comparing Manning and Snowden as just two peas in this particular pod.

I know, right?


But the other thing is - whatever choppy waters we're sailing towards in the good ship "post-truth".... to some extent we're already there.

I mean, Clinton lost the election because of Eeeeeeeeeemails

Trump now operates his own private e-mail server and nobody gives a shit.

What the fuck is the point of using facts in these discussions? In 2017 you either say whatever sounds like it'll work, or you lose to that strategy.


The hope, maybe, is that there are some decent, logical moderates out here who can be swayed.
Or that misinformation is repellant to honest people.

I think that hypothesis was tested in November and found wanting.



Quote
As a strategy "against" the alt-right I'm unconvinced that ensconcing Eris as an opponent of Kuk is wise. As much as they'd like to believe themselves to be steadily taking over the obsolete and toothless 'ol GOP they're NOT really anywhere near as successful at that as they might wish folks to believe. Shit if anything they could use an enemy in the shadows to galvanize their soft ass "coalition" and spur activity through a competitor.


The GOP and Democrats as they existed in 2016 must adapt to the new landscape or die.

Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, & Cicero are all very old and on their way out. Gotta make way for the homo superior.

The #altright and whatever we're talking about here are not the new hotness, but they might be the new order's awkward teenage form.

Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2017, 07:50:20 pm
Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: LMNO on April 13, 2017, 07:58:49 pm
We might also want to point out that more than 70% old white men voted for Trump, and less than 30% of young people did.

Trump won because of racism, disenfranchisement, and the electoral college's disproportionate weighting among the states.

Among other things, of course.  If you want to bring about change, what you need is #wokeseptuagenarian.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 07:58:56 pm
How about the #Alt-alt? It can be SO meta that it's actually indistinguishable from total normalcy and healthy social perspective.  8)


I fully acknowledge that the old methods have changed and the new are just discovering themselves, but I don't think the "old" is quite yet in useless dotage nor the "new" anywhere nearly as advanced as it's trying so VERY hard to seem.

The power is and will remain with whoever can win the mob, the whole mob. A solid humanitarian platform and an earnest and unpretentious spiritual revolution could do it. Playing strategic mirror games with The Dorkness probably will not. I could be wrong.

Note that none of that means I wouldn't happily lend a hand in this if for no other reason than that I totally despise the NAZI and Christofacsist elements gaining from all this mess.


Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.

What is this?? :?
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 08:00:15 pm
We might also want to point out that more than 70% old white men voted for Trump, and less than 30% of young people did.

Trump won because of racism, disenfranchisement, and the electoral college's disproportionate weighting among the states.

Among other things, of course.  If you want to bring about change, what you need is #wokeseptuagenarian.

 :lulz: :lulz:

#peestainednazis
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2017, 08:07:25 pm
Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.

What is this?? :?

To quote my permament facebook relationship status, "it's complicated".

Essentially, Nick Land is a British philosopher who went on a massive amphetamines binge and recoiled from the vast and implacable nature of the Universe by becoming the prophet of far-right, accelerationist technofascism.  He essentially invented the "Dark Enlightenment", which of course influenced the alt-right.  For some bizarre reason, certain left-accelerationists seem to be trying to rehabilitate his ideas.

But its really best to read around him yourself.  I can't do justice to his crazy here.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
We might also want to point out that more than 70% old white men voted for Trump, and less than 30% of young people did.

Trump won because of racism, disenfranchisement, and the electoral college's disproportionate weighting among the states.

Among other things, of course.  If you want to bring about change, what you need is #wokeseptuagenarian.

I think it's shortsighted to dismiss the right wing youth movement, whatever you call it

Milo and his cohorts aren't just gonna take a punch and then shut up and fade away


Re: the weaponization of irony ---
the people who've been "troll farm astroturfing" r/TheDonald might be onto something - after all, that's how stormfront injected /pol/
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: 00.dusk on April 13, 2017, 08:11:12 pm
Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.

This was precisely my initial response to reading it, but as I kept going I realized that despite that knee-jerk reaction I had, it wasn't all trash. Most importantly I didn't have an ongoing, guts-churning visceral feeling of disgust as I got over the initial "Oh it's this guy's filth" feeling, but other important differences exist as well. Take, for instance, the criticism after the half-way point of Land's NRx movement -- which is about as true as it gets for the size of it, and they aren't actively being hypocritical and advocating the same garbage Land's current band of loonies are cooing about either.

It's admittedly far from perfect, and quite possibly even a more problematic thing as presented than the current situation being left alone is. But I think there /is/ enough good in it for what amounts to (as TWJ noted) essentially a first draft of a "post-truth Left". I think that's something which is very important to have, as the left wing (at least in the USA) has been a toothless spineless punching bag for what seems like my entire life.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2017, 08:13:40 pm
Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.

This was precisely my initial response to reading it, but as I kept going I realized that despite that knee-jerk reaction I had, it wasn't all trash. Most importantly I didn't have an ongoing, guts-churning visceral feeling of disgust as I got over the initial "Oh it's this guy's filth" feeling, but other important differences exist as well. Take, for instance, the criticism after the half-way point of Land's NRx movement -- which is about as true as it gets for the size of it, and they aren't actively being hypocritical and advocating the same garbage Land's current band of loonies are cooing about either.

It's admittedly far from perfect, and quite possibly even a more problematic thing as presented than the current situation being left alone is. But I think there /is/ enough good in it for what amounts to (as TWJ noted) essentially a first draft of a "post-truth Left". I think that's something which is very important to have, as the left wing (at least in the USA) has been a toothless spineless punching bag for what seems like my entire life.

There is some useful stuff in there...but it's a very mixed bag, and I would say there are several questionable assertions or axioms those proposals rest on.  Also, fucking Nick Land.

When I'm not at work, I may dig in deeper and come up with a more substansive critique.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 08:29:52 pm
I had this horrible facebook thread a few weeks ago

the topic was "Should transwomen be allowed to compete in women's MMA?"

-A transwoman was making the case that Yes, Trans women are real women and it's transphobic to say otherwise.
-Another guy chimed in to point out that HRT doesn't represent a total physical transformation, there are still things like bone structure...

and I think there are some things worth discussing there, but the discussion rapidly deteriorated into camp politics and name calling. It was like neither side really had the tools to change anybody's mind.


I couldn't help but feel like this exact thing is playing out a thousand times a day. And the organic tumblr-fed "It's not my job to educate you" meme has really hurt us. I'm not saying the left is responsible for the alt-right, not at all. But the way these discussions play out definitely feeds it.


I want to be clear that I'm not signing up as champion of this #altwoke thing, I'm still chewing on it.

But let's look at how points actually get scored in the year of our lady discord 2017.

Why did Milo's book get pulled? Was it because people beat him in a theater of ideas? Was it because crowds stopped showing up for him? Was it because intersectional politics actually beats regressive shitlord politics? Not in the slightest. We just smeared him.

And it worked.

Should we feel bad about that?
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 08:49:33 pm
some more reading I dug up: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-83K8nrUzsE4gGAA6UMP1HzNDSTSuy4TXOnbKetXvM0/edit


Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 08:52:49 pm
 :lulz: I find an "alt-woke" FB group and look at the first fucking post:

(http://i.imgur.com/Lr68y0o.png)

accompanying text:

Quote
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Nick Land the Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story that academic philosophers would tell you. It’s a Continental legend. Nick Land was a Deleuzian of Warwick, so powerful and so wise he could use creative destruction to influence the intensive thresholds of terrestrial history to create…the Outside. He had such a knowledge of the dark side of Capital that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The deterritorializing flows of Capital are a pathway to many abilities some consider to be of a highly schizophrenic character. He became so deterritorialized…the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice, Ray Brassier, everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.


Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2017, 08:58:11 pm
Yes, I remember that thread.  Fortunately, I had the choice to not get involved, which I wisely exercised.

With regards to the wider point...I'm going to go all Machiavelli here and say that in politics, winning is the only outcome that matters.  But I will also say, "winning" is a quite broad category of things, and not easily demarcated by achieving short term goals.

Lets work with Milo, for example.  It was a short-term win, in the sense that he lost his platform and is discredited, which stops him from spreading racist, sexist and transmisogynist alt-right nonsense.  But will the conditions that brought about that victory have longer term consequences, which will make it a larger strategic failure?  In this case it seems unlikely, but there are plenty of cases where shutting down someone can lead to a perception of persecution and suppression which perversely supports their cause.

And if people rest on their laurels of having defeated tEh vIlLaInOuS mIlO instead of realising that he was merely a symptom of a much broader range of social and political processes, which are proceeding in his absence at the same pace....well, that's also clearly suboptimal.

Tactics and strategy matter, not only for outcome but also for managing the perception of the outcome, its legitimacy and sustaining that outcome going forwards.  As far as I'm concerned, the left is pants on head retarded when it comes to strategy and tactics.  So is the far-right and liberal centre, but their economic resources and, in the case of the liberal-right, institutional dominance mean they can afford to fail far more often while searching for successful strategies and tactics.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2017, 08:58:31 pm
:lulz: I find an "alt-woke" FB group and look at the first fucking post:

(http://i.imgur.com/Lr68y0o.png)

accompanying text:

Quote
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Nick Land the Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story that academic philosophers would tell you. It’s a Continental legend. Nick Land was a Deleuzian of Warwick, so powerful and so wise he could use creative destruction to influence the intensive thresholds of terrestrial history to create…the Outside. He had such a knowledge of the dark side of Capital that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The deterritorializing flows of Capital are a pathway to many abilities some consider to be of a highly schizophrenic character. He became so deterritorialized…the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice, Ray Brassier, everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.

 :lulz: :horrormirth:
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 09:03:11 pm
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-83K8nrUzsE4gGAA6UMP1HzNDSTSuy4TXOnbKetXvM0/edit

Just scanning this doc for Nick Land...

They seem like they agree with parts of him and hate parts of him.


Quote
We agree with Nick Land’s diagnosis of late capitalism. It is an entropic AI, a systemic feedback loop wholly incompatible with the welfare of human beings.

Our ‘amorality’ isn’t a bankruptcy of ethics so much as an emotional discipline in response to global existential threats. A learned stoicism and pragmatism is crucial to #AltWoke. We acknowledge the reality of planetary scale ecological and sociopolitical catastrophe. We accept this reality as well, insofar that it’s a causal plausibility given the geopolitical circumstances. If we do nothing, Apocalypse will be the next epoch after the Anthropocene.


The nihilism exhibited by Nick Land and his NRx acolytes looks anemic from where we’re standing. NRx/Right Accelerationism is nihilism for cowards. Passively observing the phenomenon of capitalism’s gross consumption of the Earth’s resources, watching the development of technology that exacerbates this phenomenon, and synthesising this with a eugenic, Eurocentric fundamentalism shouldn’t even count as an ideology.


they mention Nick Land six times in the doc, usually both a nod that there's he got some stuff right and also to dismiss and deride his fanboys.




Dude on FB says: "Acceleration is the is. Left-Acceleration is the ought."


I will state for the record I have read zero Nick Land, and I can only make it like 40 words deep into any neoreaction writing before my eyeball starts to twitch and all of the sudden I'm doing something else
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: MithridatesXXIII on April 13, 2017, 09:07:58 pm
But will the conditions that brought about that victory have longer term consequences, which will make it a larger strategic failure?  In this case it seems unlikely, but there are plenty of cases where shutting down someone can lead to a perception of persecution and suppression which perversely supports their cause.

And if people rest on their laurels of having defeated tEh vIlLaInOuS mIlO instead of realising that he was merely a symptom of a much broader range of social and political processes, which are proceeding in his absence at the same pace....well, that's also clearly suboptimal.

Tactics and strategy matter, not only for outcome but also for managing the perception of the outcome, its legitimacy and sustaining that outcome going forwards.  As far as I'm concerned, the left is pants on head retarded when it comes to strategy and tactics.  So is the far-right and liberal centre, but their economic resources and, in the case of the liberal-right, institutional dominance mean they can afford to fail far more often while searching for successful strategies and tactics.

This is great in the context of Deleuze that was mentioned in the FB post. In Nomadology: The War Machine, Deleuze and Guattari discuss the difference in strategy between the state and the war machine. Chess and Go respectively. In this sense, the alt-right and dark enlightenment people are claiming to be the Nomad but frequently reference Trump, their vehicle, as a Chessmaster.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: 00.dusk on April 13, 2017, 09:10:23 pm
I will state for the record I have read zero Nick Land, and I can only make it like 40 words deep into any neoreaction writing before my eyeball starts to twitch and all of the sudden I'm doing something else

It's a protective reaction, like fever, bitter taste, or that crawling feeling you get in the aftermath of a frothing, roiling Orange Eating Contest dump violently evacuating your sinuses. It's warning you that down that road leads your own demise.

I've read his trash and it's /for your own good/. There's nothing worth saving in there, and these folks would be better off if they just took a chainsaw to the bits that have his name smeared on them in moldy dog feces.

That said, if you're going to force yourself to steal from Nick Land, I don't think it's possible to do a better job than they did here (short of writing a sequel to the only good thing he ever wrote, Phyl-Undhu).
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on April 13, 2017, 09:12:06 pm
This looks like a promising tool for rehabilitating /pol spags who haven't gone full nazi yet, or are willing to consider stepping back from full nazi.

The youth-right opposition to *false* political correctness (saying the right thing because it's what you're supposed to, not because you believe it) is a useful foothold that this seems to be planting itself in. They don't wanna be tumblrinas, but they also don't think they hate black people/immigrants/queer folk/whatever. A movement that allows them to say "I hate the falseness of the narrative around inclusivity, not inclusivity itself" and keeps pulling them away from the direction of full nazi could be the kind of stepping stone we need.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: 00.dusk on April 13, 2017, 09:13:32 pm
This looks like a promising tool for rehabilitating /pol spags who haven't gone full nazi yet, or are willing to consider stepping back from full nazi.

The youth-right opposition to *false* political correctness (saying the right thing because it's what you're supposed to, not because you believe it) is a useful foothold that this seems to be planting itself in. They don't wanna be tumblrinas, but they also don't think they hate black people/immigrants/queer folk/whatever. A movement that allows them to say "I hate the falseness of the narrative around inclusivity, not inclusivity itself" and keeps pulling them away from the direction of full nazi could be the kind of stepping stone we need.

This is a good point.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: MithridatesXXIII on April 13, 2017, 09:26:40 pm
"I hate the falseness of the narrative around inclusivity, not inclusivity itself" and keeps pulling them away from the direction of full nazi could be the kind of stepping stone we need.

This would be the sad part. These people's characterization of Trump's strategy as Chessmaster betrays a misunderstanding of Deleuze's Nomad, in that Trump can be said to use the strategy of Go: territorializing and deterritorializing, also referenced in the FB post. The sad part is that Trump's deterritorializing of the striated space, namely egalitarianism and equal rights for minorities of all kinds destroys the underlying structures and bases of support for said people to advance their causes. People know this and see it reasonably as pandering to the neoreactionary, when in it appears instead to be the unfortunate known yet "broken eggs for the omelet" collateral costs of Trump's seizing upon the natural power of the US media dialectical polarization mechanism.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 09:49:19 pm
Put down the diluted Nick Land and back away from the keyboard.

What is this?? :?

To quote my permament facebook relationship status, "it's complicated".

Essentially, Nick Land is a British philosopher who went on a massive amphetamines binge and recoiled from the vast and implacable nature of the Universe by becoming the prophet of far-right, accelerationist technofascism.  He essentially invented the "Dark Enlightenment", which of course influenced the alt-right.  For some bizarre reason, certain left-accelerationists seem to be trying to rehabilitate his ideas.

But its really best to read around him yourself.  I can't do justice to his crazy here.

I may just do that. I kinda got the impression in this manifesto here that the author was a bit... altered. That's just the subjective "vibe" from the first reading though.

I must admit that I lack the jargon and author knowledge base to understand the OP completely. Laconism is a lost art.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 10:36:12 pm
So it seems that there's a critter named Wojack and this is something equivalent to Pepe. Gonba be rather difficult making that Eris compatible considering he's dead and pretty much otherwise entirely not how Eris do.

https://m.youtube.com/results?q=Wojak&sm=3

Also attached pics pretty much sum up my feels on this whole thing after a read of the available materials. The lexicon was pretty funny. Reminds me of RP amd LARP and other things that weren't so political not all that long ago.

That said I too think Q.G. may be on to something with its use as a sort of counter-cult.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2017, 02:46:44 am

Why did Milo's book get pulled? Was it because people beat him in a theater of ideas? Was it because crowds stopped showing up for him? Was it because intersectional politics actually beats regressive shitlord politics? Not in the slightest. We just smeared him.

And it worked.

Should we feel bad about that?

No.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: MithridatesXXIII on April 14, 2017, 02:52:38 am

Why did Milo's book get pulled? Was it because people beat him in a theater of ideas? Was it because crowds stopped showing up for him? Was it because intersectional politics actually beats regressive shitlord politics? Not in the slightest. We just smeared him.

And it worked.

Should we feel bad about that?

No.

Well, you can't count on everyone from that side to defend pedophilia as their relevance is flagging.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2017, 03:42:55 am

Why did Milo's book get pulled? Was it because people beat him in a theater of ideas? Was it because crowds stopped showing up for him? Was it because intersectional politics actually beats regressive shitlord politics? Not in the slightest. We just smeared him.

And it worked.

Should we feel bad about that?

No.

Well, you can't count on everyone from that side to defend pedophilia as their relevance is flagging.

Doesn't mean I have to feel bad about it.   :lulz:
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: East Coast Hustle on April 15, 2017, 04:06:19 pm
I had this horrible facebook thread a few weeks ago

the topic was "Should transwomen be allowed to compete in women's MMA?"

-A transwoman was making the case that Yes, Trans women are real women and it's transphobic to say otherwise.
-Another guy chimed in to point out that HRT doesn't represent a total physical transformation, there are still things like bone structure...

and I think there are some things worth discussing there, but the discussion rapidly deteriorated into camp politics and name calling. It was like neither side really had the tools to change anybody's mind.


I couldn't help but feel like this exact thing is playing out a thousand times a day. And the organic tumblr-fed "It's not my job to educate you" meme has really hurt us. I'm not saying the left is responsible for the alt-right, not at all. But the way these discussions play out definitely feeds it.


I want to be clear that I'm not signing up as champion of this #altwoke thing, I'm still chewing on it.

But let's look at how points actually get scored in the year of our lady discord 2017.

Why did Milo's book get pulled? Was it because people beat him in a theater of ideas? Was it because crowds stopped showing up for him? Was it because intersectional politics actually beats regressive shitlord politics? Not in the slightest. We just smeared him.

And it worked.

Should we feel bad about that?

My initial hot take is that while this can certainly be a useful tactic, it's probably not an ideal long-term strategy.
Title: Re: The #AltWoke Manifesto
Post by: East Coast Hustle on April 15, 2017, 04:07:55 pm
And as usual, Cain beat me to the punch and was far more eloquent about it. :lulz: