Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 21, 2017, 09:59:31 am

Title: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 21, 2017, 09:59:31 am
In true Democrat form, the Democratic Party has chosen this particular moment in history to have an existential crisis and turn inward to eat itself.

Meet the Justice Democrats (https://justicedemocrats.com/), swooping in at just the wrong moment to save the American Left from any possibility of victory in 2018.

No doubt taking inspiration from the GOP's TEA Party conniption from 2010, the Justice Democrats are the spine the Democrats have never had, without all that messy connective tissue or muscular system that goes along with moving and doing things. Their website/manifesto declares war on "Corporate Democrats" who have "Allowed the Republicans to take control of most state legislatures" and whatever. Having convinced themselves that the only real antidote to American Fascism is a bout of hard-line socialism, they intend to attack unworthy and insufficiently true-believing Democrats in primaries across the country next year, and ... defeat them?

I'm all for taking a more progressive stance on issues. But this BernieBot Army is exactly the wrong way to do that. And, of course, since it is exactly the wrong way to go about making a political comeback, you can depend on the Democrats to pull it off -- flawlessly and spectacularly, in an inspiring display of self-immolation and utter collapse.

Seriously, though, maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but it's hard to see the chance of success in this. On the surface, it seems like all good intentions and warm fuzzy pep rallies. But as with any "goddammit you're moving too slow" political movement, it is sure to be overrun with increasingly fractious and myopic pet-project activists -- ultimately causing the disintegration of every last coalition in the Democratic Party's base. Their entire reason for existing is already because they're better/smarter/faster than Those Other Democrats, and only a fool would think that isn't going to translate downward to the membership of this group.

So yeah, go ahead and have fun with 2018, I guess. I'm just going to have a nightshade cocktail and sleep until this whole thing blows over.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on May 21, 2017, 01:54:05 pm
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 21, 2017, 04:33:15 pm
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

Well, clearly we are working on that. Give it until maybe 2022 or so.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 21, 2017, 09:12:26 pm
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

We need a Science party
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 21, 2017, 11:13:41 pm
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

We need a Science party

It's been tried.  Hilariously.

Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 21, 2017, 11:14:54 pm
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

It's funny as hell, really.  But someone has to represent Tumblr and the Berner FB page demographic, I suppose.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 22, 2017, 12:06:43 am
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

We need a Science party

It's been tried.  Hilariously.

Then we need apolitical HIMEOBS.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 22, 2017, 12:07:43 am
Can't we just get it over with and become a four party system? The Asshole Right, the GOP, the Dems, and the Fart-Huffers.


I mean, I'd probably be more politically aligned with the Huffers, but still.

We need a Science party

It's been tried.  Hilariously.

Then we need apolitical HIMEOBS.

If it existed, that would be even better than what we have at the moment.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2017, 02:35:02 pm
I look forward to when they see the results of roundly dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as a "shill" as an electoral strategy.

At least they haven't signed up to Tulsi Gabbard...yet.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2017, 02:38:59 pm
On the plus side, this would provide endless material for /r/neoliberal (http://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal)
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 22, 2017, 04:41:03 pm
This rhetoric that "The Democratic Party" has ever been a unified whole, or is doing anything in particular as an entity, let alone imploding, is silly.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 22, 2017, 04:42:31 pm
For one thing, people starting another party, even one with "Democrat" in the name, is by definition not something that is being done by the Democratic Party.

Sometimes I wonder whether most people actually understand what a political party even is.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 22, 2017, 04:50:50 pm
I also feel the need to point out that despite being the oldest continuously-existing political party in the world, it has also almost never been anything BUT fractious, and certainly not at all in the last 100 years. The Republican party has been hooting and gnashing about how little Democrats agree with each other for as long as it has existed. It's literally their one big dead horse that they won't stop beating. The reason for this is that the Democratic party, ie. the people who register Democrat, spans very different populations with very different priorities. That liberal white people and conservative black people agree on enough to register in the same party to begin with is nothing short of astonishing. So the nonstop wailing about how the Democratic party is "fractionalized" or "imploding" is basically occurring as individual people notice something that has never not been the case in their lifetimes.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 22, 2017, 06:35:25 pm
I also feel the need to point out that despite being the oldest continuously-existing political party in the world, it has also almost never been anything BUT fractious, and certainly not at all in the last 100 years. The Republican party has been hooting and gnashing about how little Democrats agree with each other for as long as it has existed. It's literally their one big dead horse that they won't stop beating. The reason for this is that the Democratic party, ie. the people who register Democrat, spans very different populations with very different priorities. That liberal white people and conservative black people agree on enough to register in the same party to begin with is nothing short of astonishing. So the nonstop wailing about how the Democratic party is "fractionalized" or "imploding" is basically occurring as individual people notice something that has never not been the case in their lifetimes.

Yeah, I know all of this. Of course it has been fractious and divided, like everything any group of humans do. I'm not commenting on that obvious fact. I'm commenting on the need to not only be fractured and exclusive but the need to more or less declare open war on the other half of the coalition as if they're a bigger enemy than the actual enemies. That it isn't enough to be a coalition (however fractious), that "coalitions" themselves are now insufficient for progress. There have always been differences of opinion and even strong disagreement under the Democratic roof, of course, and I'm not naive enough to think there hasn't been. It's the shift to a bridge-burning tone that I object to.

It's just another log on the fire that is currently consuming the republic. This anti-coalition, True-Believerism that says if you're not 100% on my side of all the lines, then you must be a mortal enemy. We are no longer interested in any kind of compromise. If you agree on everything but one issue, that one issue will become so important that it eclipses every other area where cooperation might have happened. It already ate up the GOP, but it took them 30 years to do it. The Democratic Party is probably going to take half that time and may not even survive. As naive as it would be to think that the Democrats have ever been homogeneous or entirely unified, it would be equally unobservant to think that those divisions are not growing deeper and faster in the last few years. I'm not talking about our differences, I'm talking about the rapidity with which they are expanding beyond any hope of reconciliation. The differences aren't new -- our complete abandonment of any hope of overcoming them is, or at least, we haven't seen it this bad for 150 years.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 23, 2017, 02:13:59 am
The left hates each other more than they hate the alt-right.  Dress it up all you like, doesn't change the facts.

The two main factions of the left are now even more rabid with respect to each other than they were during the primaries, because they are - like all humans - dumb as fuck and possessing the survival instincts of a dodo.  I am honest puzzled as to how we survived the interval between "falling out of the trees" and "inventing the shotgun".

This is why the right is shitting the place up with very little actual opposition..."All that evil requires is for good people to act like dumbasses."
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 23, 2017, 02:44:57 am
The left hates each other more than they hate the alt-right.  Dress it up all you like, doesn't change the facts.

The two main factions of the left are now even more rabid with respect to each other than they were during the primaries, because they are - like all humans - dumb as fuck and possessing the survival instincts of a dodo.  I am honest puzzled as to how we survived the interval between "falling out of the trees" and "inventing the shotgun".

This is why the right is shitting the place up with very little actual opposition..."All that evil requires is for good people to act like dumbasses."

Clearly, we have collectively decided that surviving was a bad move. We have spent our entire history trying to undo that mistake.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 23, 2017, 11:27:25 pm
I also feel the need to point out that despite being the oldest continuously-existing political party in the world, it has also almost never been anything BUT fractious, and certainly not at all in the last 100 years. The Republican party has been hooting and gnashing about how little Democrats agree with each other for as long as it has existed. It's literally their one big dead horse that they won't stop beating. The reason for this is that the Democratic party, ie. the people who register Democrat, spans very different populations with very different priorities. That liberal white people and conservative black people agree on enough to register in the same party to begin with is nothing short of astonishing. So the nonstop wailing about how the Democratic party is "fractionalized" or "imploding" is basically occurring as individual people notice something that has never not been the case in their lifetimes.

Yeah, I know all of this. Of course it has been fractious and divided, like everything any group of humans do. I'm not commenting on that obvious fact. I'm commenting on the need to not only be fractured and exclusive but the need to more or less declare open war on the other half of the coalition as if they're a bigger enemy than the actual enemies. That it isn't enough to be a coalition (however fractious), that "coalitions" themselves are now insufficient for progress. There have always been differences of opinion and even strong disagreement under the Democratic roof, of course, and I'm not naive enough to think there hasn't been. It's the shift to a bridge-burning tone that I object to.

It's just another log on the fire that is currently consuming the republic. This anti-coalition, True-Believerism that says if you're not 100% on my side of all the lines, then you must be a mortal enemy. We are no longer interested in any kind of compromise. If you agree on everything but one issue, that one issue will become so important that it eclipses every other area where cooperation might have happened. It already ate up the GOP, but it took them 30 years to do it. The Democratic Party is probably going to take half that time and may not even survive. As naive as it would be to think that the Democrats have ever been homogeneous or entirely unified, it would be equally unobservant to think that those divisions are not growing deeper and faster in the last few years. I'm not talking about our differences, I'm talking about the rapidity with which they are expanding beyond any hope of reconciliation. The differences aren't new -- our complete abandonment of any hope of overcoming them is, or at least, we haven't seen it this bad for 150 years.

Do I really have to point out your error of assumption, here? It's literally the same one I already pointed out.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Junkenstein on May 24, 2017, 12:13:44 am
Progress in the US can probably be measured quite accurately by how many people find "Socialism" a filthy concept that must not be spoken of. I'd guess around 85-90% of your population still equate it with terrible communism of the worst kind. This results in 35% or so out of the nominal 50% of democratic voters still being almost equivalent to any alternative on the republican side of things.

It's pretty amazing really. For a country that large, with that many politicians to have hardly any that you can actually point at and say anything positive.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 24, 2017, 12:22:13 am
Progress in the US can probably be measured quite accurately by how many people find "Socialism" a filthy concept that must not be spoken of. I'd guess around 85-90% of your population still equate it with terrible communism of the worst kind. This results in 35% or so out of the nominal 50% of democratic voters still being almost equivalent to any alternative on the republican side of things.

It's pretty amazing really. For a country that large, with that many politicians to have hardly any that you can actually point at and say anything positive.

We kinda pride ourselves on the ability of our politicians to pander to a vicious minority of voters.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 24, 2017, 04:24:27 am
I also feel the need to point out that despite being the oldest continuously-existing political party in the world, it has also almost never been anything BUT fractious, and certainly not at all in the last 100 years. The Republican party has been hooting and gnashing about how little Democrats agree with each other for as long as it has existed. It's literally their one big dead horse that they won't stop beating. The reason for this is that the Democratic party, ie. the people who register Democrat, spans very different populations with very different priorities. That liberal white people and conservative black people agree on enough to register in the same party to begin with is nothing short of astonishing. So the nonstop wailing about how the Democratic party is "fractionalized" or "imploding" is basically occurring as individual people notice something that has never not been the case in their lifetimes.

Yeah, I know all of this. Of course it has been fractious and divided, like everything any group of humans do. I'm not commenting on that obvious fact. I'm commenting on the need to not only be fractured and exclusive but the need to more or less declare open war on the other half of the coalition as if they're a bigger enemy than the actual enemies. That it isn't enough to be a coalition (however fractious), that "coalitions" themselves are now insufficient for progress. There have always been differences of opinion and even strong disagreement under the Democratic roof, of course, and I'm not naive enough to think there hasn't been. It's the shift to a bridge-burning tone that I object to.

It's just another log on the fire that is currently consuming the republic. This anti-coalition, True-Believerism that says if you're not 100% on my side of all the lines, then you must be a mortal enemy. We are no longer interested in any kind of compromise. If you agree on everything but one issue, that one issue will become so important that it eclipses every other area where cooperation might have happened. It already ate up the GOP, but it took them 30 years to do it. The Democratic Party is probably going to take half that time and may not even survive. As naive as it would be to think that the Democrats have ever been homogeneous or entirely unified, it would be equally unobservant to think that those divisions are not growing deeper and faster in the last few years. I'm not talking about our differences, I'm talking about the rapidity with which they are expanding beyond any hope of reconciliation. The differences aren't new -- our complete abandonment of any hope of overcoming them is, or at least, we haven't seen it this bad for 150 years.

Do I really have to point out your error of assumption, here? It's literally the same one I already pointed out.

I have no particular desire to apologize for the occasional lingual shortcut through territory best by sniping pedants. The gist, I think, was clear enough. We have more pressing causes to fight for at the moment than insufficient dedication to Progressive-ism. Let's worry about the Nazi infestation that threatens the lives of people forst, then maybe if there are still enough of us standing, turn guns on the Corpocrats. But if it's not a position worthy of voicing out loud, or one that can be acknowledged without being picked apart because it wasn't phrased quite right, Ican keep it to myself.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 24, 2017, 08:05:39 pm
The basic premise of this whole thread is that the Democratic Party is being fractionalized by people starting a new party. The underlying assumption is that Democrats that have historically been active within the Democratic party are splintering off to start a new party, thus weakening the existing party.

However, I would suggest that this assumption is erroneous, given that the Bernie Sanders supporters (including those who registered Democrat during the last election) who are likely to be disgruntled with the Democratic party are unlikely to be historic Democrats, and more likely to have been unregistered, independent, Socialist, or Green. I doubt the creation of yet another additional party weakens the Democratic party at all, certainly no more than the formation of the Working Families Party did (which was statistically not at all), and it certainly doesn't look anything like "implosion". New parties are being created (and disbanded) all the time as part of normal political evolution.

You may take my criticisms of your premise as pedantic sniping if you wish, but it is simple disagreement with the entire fundamental premise of your post.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 24, 2017, 08:11:25 pm
Not only that, but I feel I have to point out that the Justice Democrats aren't even a new political party; it's an action committee formed to push the Democratic Party in the direction its members want it to go by garnering supporters and demonstrating that this is what Democrats want.

I disagree completely and fundamentally that all people who are of a particular political alignment must all fight the same battles in order to be effective. It's a lot like the idea that all researchers must research the same diseases in order to be effective; the "let's throw everything at one problem at a time" mentality. It simply isn't practical and doesn't work. What is practical, and does work, is people tackling the problems that matter the most to them personally, forming multiple coalitions that each focus on their own area of specialty.

Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 24, 2017, 10:07:47 pm
Also see http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 24, 2017, 10:27:29 pm
I know better than to try and continue a line of thought once you've declared it wrong, so I concede. I can settle for 3rd or 4th smartest guy in the room.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 24, 2017, 10:38:51 pm
I have no problem with disagreement; I just really want disagreement to be to the very high standard of which I know you are capable. That way, if I am wrong I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and also I will understand why, and vise versa.

I think that the Democratic fractionalization narrative worked very well for the Republican party in this last election, which is ironic if only because they are an absolute shitmess of a party, as parties go.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 24, 2017, 11:02:51 pm
I know the JD are not a political party, though they are a little more organized and intentional than most of the Tea Party was in 2009/2010. I also know that there are serious corpocratic tendencies in the Democratic Party that are legitimate problems that need legitimate solutions. But the JD are an outgrowth of the "Never Hillary" Berniebots who sat out the last election or tossed their votes uselessly to a 3rd-party candidate knowing full well the result this would have. It isn't that there aren't enough resources or reasons to fight more than one fight at a time, it's that this fight is one whose outcome we have already seen and are already living with. It's also one more area that has been touched by the scourge of fanatical extremism, one more coalition threatened with extinction because it has become self-aware and self-loathing.

Democratic fractionalization isn't just a narrative, it's a reality that cost us an election that should have been easy. It illustrates that the Democratic Party's coalition is absolutely essential. It doesn't win elections without internal integrity and compromise. When it frays and falls apart, America still has a core of white nationalism big enough to pick up the pieces, of which I am sure you are more acutely aware than I am. Of course we have to keep having dialogue and even disagreement within the coalition, but we can't afford another election where we turn on each other and refuse to come together for the common good.

The kind of language employed by the Justice Democrats picks up where the sneering condescension left off in 2016 and will only get worse as we approach the midterms of 2018. I can't see that resulting in anything other than a whole ticket full of microcosmic reproductions of the Clinton/Sanders primary, splitting the Democrats' votes and in many cases allowing whatever passes for Republican after their next primary a clear shot at general elections. If the JD can manage to push the Democrats farther left, I'd be thrilled. But more likely, they'll just discourage moderates from bothering at all.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 24, 2017, 11:38:58 pm
Between gerrymandering and democrat fecklessness, the GOP will strengthen their hold in 2018. 

You saw it here first.  There is no series of events in view that allows the situation to get better.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 24, 2017, 11:53:19 pm
Between gerrymandering and democrat fecklessness, the GOP will strengthen their hold in 2018. 

You saw it here first.  There is no series of events in view that allows the situation to get better.

Disagree. This outlook is not sufficiently sadistic to mesh well with the character of this century. I think 2018 will show a slight tick back in Democrats' favor, maybe even the House or the Senate will flip. This will mean nothing functionally, of course. We will continue to slip slowly downward. Then, in 2020, all the other shoes will drop, Trump will be re-elected in an actual landslide somehow, and nobody will even bother pretending there's a republic anymore by about March of 2021.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 25, 2017, 12:30:03 am
I know the JD are not a political party, though they are a little more organized and intentional than most of the Tea Party was in 2009/2010. I also know that there are serious corpocratic tendencies in the Democratic Party that are legitimate problems that need legitimate solutions. But the JD are an outgrowth of the "Never Hillary" Berniebots who sat out the last election or tossed their votes uselessly to a 3rd-party candidate knowing full well the result this would have. It isn't that there aren't enough resources or reasons to fight more than one fight at a time, it's that this fight is one whose outcome we have already seen and are already living with. It's also one more area that has been touched by the scourge of fanatical extremism, one more coalition threatened with extinction because it has become self-aware and self-loathing.

Democratic fractionalization isn't just a narrative, it's a reality that cost us an election that should have been easy. It illustrates that the Democratic Party's coalition is absolutely essential. It doesn't win elections without internal integrity and compromise. When it frays and falls apart, America still has a core of white nationalism big enough to pick up the pieces, of which I am sure you are more acutely aware than I am. Of course we have to keep having dialogue and even disagreement within the coalition, but we can't afford another election where we turn on each other and refuse to come together for the common good.

The kind of language employed by the Justice Democrats picks up where the sneering condescension left off in 2016 and will only get worse as we approach the midterms of 2018. I can't see that resulting in anything other than a whole ticket full of microcosmic reproductions of the Clinton/Sanders primary, splitting the Democrats' votes and in many cases allowing whatever passes for Republican after their next primary a clear shot at general elections. If the JD can manage to push the Democrats farther left, I'd be thrilled. But more likely, they'll just discourage moderates from bothering at all.

I think I partially agree with you, but for a completely different reason. If the Justice Democrats is indeed a coalition of Bernie Bros, it will become clear by the next election that the underlying issues behind the lack of cohesion of the Democratic platform are institutionalized misogyny and racism.

I don't think we are going to unite white progressives on matters of racial equity, because a good size chunk of white progressives are closet racists who already think that everything is fine and black people are just whining for special privileges and playing victims. I don't think we are going to unite white OR black Democrats on matters of sex equity like access to reproductive health care and equal pay, because most black Democrats are too conservative and both are still deeply, unconsciously entrenched in the kind of unconscious patriarchal ideology that leads to peer reviewers finding equally productive woman scientists 1/3 less qualified than their male counterparts.

I also think you profoundly underestimate the degree to which plain old-fashioned ingrained patriarchal misogyny, along with well-orchestrated gerrymandering, cost the Democrats the election last year. Even keeping in mind that Clinton won the popular election with a greater voter turnout than any male politician ever other than Obama, it is also statistically clear that a large number of white Democrats opted to vote for Trump, which should tell us more than just that the "emails" campaign worked. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38254946

I think you have a really great story, I just don't think it's a story that is supported by facts.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on May 25, 2017, 12:56:14 pm
Ok, without my former glibness, my main problem with the JDs isn't that they're criticizing the Dems from the Left.  I think the Dems are too centrist, and too willing to concede to the right without fighting.  A strong progressive force pulling Left would be beneficial, IMO.

My problem is they seem to be attacking more than persuading, using the same tactics (and often, the same arguments) that the Right uses.  I simply don't feel that's an effective way to go. 
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 25, 2017, 05:25:48 pm
Ok, without my former glibness, my main problem with the JDs isn't that they're criticizing the Dems from the Left.  I think the Dems are too centrist, and too willing to concede to the right without fighting.  A strong progressive force pulling Left would be beneficial, IMO.

My problem is they seem to be attacking more than persuading, using the same tactics (and often, the same arguments) that the Right uses.  I simply don't feel that's an effective way to go. 

Yes, this. Democrats already have a precarious coalition, and the tone taken by the JDs only fans the flames of division. I understand that most traditional Democrats are not going to abandon the party (although some clearly did so last year), but continuing this feud and the bad blood between the Clinton camp and the Sanders camp (or whatever they're evolving into) will drive many new and younger Democrats away from unity with a party they're being trained to see as "corporatist" and corrupt in exactly the same language that was used to smear Clinton.

And while the JD's platform is quite economically progressive, there is no direct invocation of issues pertaining to race, gender, or sexual identity. If it isn't already a front for the worst elements of the Bernie Bros, it could quickly become a haven for them.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 25, 2017, 07:18:50 pm
Ok, without my former glibness, my main problem with the JDs isn't that they're criticizing the Dems from the Left.  I think the Dems are too centrist, and too willing to concede to the right without fighting.  A strong progressive force pulling Left would be beneficial, IMO.

My problem is they seem to be attacking more than persuading, using the same tactics (and often, the same arguments) that the Right uses.  I simply don't feel that's an effective way to go.

So, to sum up:

There are quite a few power-tripping, insult-flinging, narrow-minded, insular, total shit people in the Democratic party.

That is a completely legitimate observation, but my question here is, how is this new? I feel like last year around this time I was being lambasted for daring to point this out.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on May 25, 2017, 07:27:52 pm
Maybe not so much "new" as "you're a prophet, and a lot of people are only catching up now and see the way this behavior can fracture a voting bloc"
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 26, 2017, 12:20:51 am
Ok, without my former glibness, my main problem with the JDs isn't that they're criticizing the Dems from the Left.  I think the Dems are too centrist, and too willing to concede to the right without fighting.  A strong progressive force pulling Left would be beneficial, IMO.

My problem is they seem to be attacking more than persuading, using the same tactics (and often, the same arguments) that the Right uses.  I simply don't feel that's an effective way to go.

I think they're fighting in the lifeboat.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 26, 2017, 12:57:59 am
Maybe not so much "new" as "you're a prophet, and a lot of people are only catching up now and see the way this behavior can fracture a voting bloc"

Hahaha, OK, I can accept that.

The Democratic party has always been full of sanctimonious, lefter-than-you closet racists and socialist ponytail misogynists, from my perspective, but I guess they didn't start feeling safe about being totally open about it until the "alt-right" started openly supporting the KKK, thereby upping the ante.

Did you know that the (non-chartered so most of the voting ones register Democrat) Socialist Party's official party line in Oregon is (and has been for several years) that there is no institutionalized misogyny? That's right... sexism and racism aren't real problems, but mere byproducts of the Real Problem™, classism.

That's basically who we're dealing with.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 26, 2017, 01:08:31 am
Note that I'm not saying that classism isn't a real problem. It's a real problem and a huge one. I am simply saying that there are and always have been a lot of people both in the Democratic Party and in other coalitions on the Left that use classism as a fulcrum point that allows them to deny and ignore women's issues and racial issues so they never have to confront their own sexist and racist attitudes, or acknowledge them in others.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 26, 2017, 01:50:47 am
Note that I'm not saying that classism isn't a real problem. It's a real problem and a huge one. I am simply saying that there are and always have been a lot of people both in the Democratic Party and in other coalitions on the Left that use classism as a fulcrum point that allows them to deny and ignore women's issues and racial issues so they never have to confront their own sexist and racist attitudes, or acknowledge them in others.

This is absolutely true. Maybe I just don't words very good because I could swear this is directly adjacent to and implied by my original point.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 26, 2017, 10:03:12 pm
Note that I'm not saying that classism isn't a real problem. It's a real problem and a huge one. I am simply saying that there are and always have been a lot of people both in the Democratic Party and in other coalitions on the Left that use classism as a fulcrum point that allows them to deny and ignore women's issues and racial issues so they never have to confront their own sexist and racist attitudes, or acknowledge them in others.

This is absolutely true. Maybe I just don't words very good because I could swear this is directly adjacent to and implied by my original point.

It's totally possible that I just failed to pick up on that. I guess my main point is that I don't feel like anything particularly new is going on.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on May 28, 2017, 04:04:15 pm
Wasn't that a primary concern with Bernie? He insisted that sexism and racism would vanish as soon as economic inequality was eliminated.

I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2017, 12:09:23 am
Wasn't that a primary concern with Bernie? He insisted that sexism and racism would vanish as soon as economic inequality was eliminated.

I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now.

Yes, he tended to be dismissive on those issues, particularly early in his campaign, which cost him a great deal of support among women and black voters. This is something we discussed quite a bit, but Bernie supporters refused to acknowledge that those weaknesses were hurting his campaign.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Scott The Cuck on June 17, 2017, 05:42:06 am
I'm the only one who got what they wanted this election.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 17, 2017, 10:19:00 am
I'm the only one who got what they wanted this election.

Yeah, but I have learned to stop worrying and love the imminent apocalypse.

Mostly because it has occurred to me that the only thing on Earth that has a negative value is human life.  By which I mean the Earth has a carrying capacity (currently) of 2 billion people, and we just sailed past 7.5 billion people.  A surplus of 5.5 billion people, which is 2 billion more total people that existed in total when I plopped out into this mess and became part of the problem.

This is utterly unsupportable, and it's all going to come crashing down very shortly (ie, when the population reaches about 10.5  billion people, which is the point where we simply cannot move food fast enough to feed anyone, and then the panic and chaos will finish the job), so none of this shit matters in the slightest.  No matter what your beliefs are, or what convictions you have, you have about a 1/80 chance of being alive in 20 years (optimistically speaking, and your odds are WAY worse if you're over 35), and even if you are, politics will be the last fucking thing on your mind.  I personally take comfort in the knowledge that I will certainly be dust in the wind by then, and will not have to suffer through the yelling and bullshit that will come along with the Big Whoops.

In the meantime, though, we can listen to people who claim that their ideology will ensure that the correct people die, knowing full well that they're full of shit, or we can instead choose to listen to street corner preachers about how awful it all is and what terrible people we all are, knowing that they are also full of shit.

None of it matters.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 17, 2017, 10:35:35 am
I'm the only one who got what they wanted this election.

Yeah, but I have learned to stop worrying and love the imminent apocalypse.

Mostly because it has occurred to me that the only thing on Earth that has a negative value is human life.  By which I mean the Earth has a carrying capacity (currently) of 2 billion people, and we just sailed past 7.5 billion people.  A surplus of 5.5 billion people, which is 2 billion more total people that existed in total when I plopped out into this mess and became part of the problem.

This is utterly unsupportable, and it's all going to come crashing down very shortly (ie, when the population reaches about 10.5  billion people, which is the point where we simply cannot move food fast enough to feed anyone, and then the panic and chaos will finish the job), so none of this shit matters in the slightest.  No matter what your beliefs are, or what convictions you have, you have about a 1/80 chance of being alive in 20 years (optimistically speaking, and your odds are WAY worse if you're over 35), and even if you are, politics will be the last fucking thing on your mind.  I personally take comfort in the knowledge that I will certainly be dust in the wind by then, and will not have to suffer through the yelling and bullshit that will come along with the Big Whoops.

In the meantime, though, we can listen to people who claim that their ideology will ensure that the correct people die, knowing full well that they're full of shit, or we can instead choose to listen to street corner preachers about how awful it all is and what terrible people we all are, knowing that they are also full of shit.

None of it matters.

Please don't ever die.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 17, 2017, 10:48:27 am
I'm the only one who got what they wanted this election.

Yeah, but I have learned to stop worrying and love the imminent apocalypse.

Mostly because it has occurred to me that the only thing on Earth that has a negative value is human life.  By which I mean the Earth has a carrying capacity (currently) of 2 billion people, and we just sailed past 7.5 billion people.  A surplus of 5.5 billion people, which is 2 billion more total people that existed in total when I plopped out into this mess and became part of the problem.

This is utterly unsupportable, and it's all going to come crashing down very shortly (ie, when the population reaches about 10.5  billion people, which is the point where we simply cannot move food fast enough to feed anyone, and then the panic and chaos will finish the job), so none of this shit matters in the slightest.  No matter what your beliefs are, or what convictions you have, you have about a 1/80 chance of being alive in 20 years (optimistically speaking, and your odds are WAY worse if you're over 35), and even if you are, politics will be the last fucking thing on your mind.  I personally take comfort in the knowledge that I will certainly be dust in the wind by then, and will not have to suffer through the yelling and bullshit that will come along with the Big Whoops.

In the meantime, though, we can listen to people who claim that their ideology will ensure that the correct people die, knowing full well that they're full of shit, or we can instead choose to listen to street corner preachers about how awful it all is and what terrible people we all are, knowing that they are also full of shit.

None of it matters.

Please don't ever die.

My point is, it's far more profitable to live for the moment, and fight for what you think is right (this is literally all you have left) for its own sake, than to spend all fucking day trying to rack up your social consciousness score for the approval of, or validation from, other dumbfucks crawling around in the cesspool we like to call the internet superhighway.

It's as fucking pointless as the Koch brothers trying to increase their wealth.

You can be an exemplar as you fall off the end of the clanking conveyor belt, or you can jockey for position as the most famously enlightened thing to fall into the meat grinder.  The result is precisely the same, except that the former means that you were at least a fucking biped at the end, instead of a stupid fucking human.



Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Scott The Cuck on June 17, 2017, 12:42:08 pm
I'm the only one who got what they wanted this election.

Yeah, but I have learned to stop worrying and love the imminent apocalypse.

Mostly because it has occurred to me that the only thing on Earth that has a negative value is human life.  By which I mean the Earth has a carrying capacity (currently) of 2 billion people, and we just sailed past 7.5 billion people.  A surplus of 5.5 billion people, which is 2 billion more total people that existed in total when I plopped out into this mess and became part of the problem.

This is utterly unsupportable, and it's all going to come crashing down very shortly (ie, when the population reaches about 10.5  billion people, which is the point where we simply cannot move food fast enough to feed anyone, and then the panic and chaos will finish the job), so none of this shit matters in the slightest.  No matter what your beliefs are, or what convictions you have, you have about a 1/80 chance of being alive in 20 years (optimistically speaking, and your odds are WAY worse if you're over 35), and even if you are, politics will be the last fucking thing on your mind.  I personally take comfort in the knowledge that I will certainly be dust in the wind by then, and will not have to suffer through the yelling and bullshit that will come along with the Big Whoops.

In the meantime, though, we can listen to people who claim that their ideology will ensure that the correct people die, knowing full well that they're full of shit, or we can instead choose to listen to street corner preachers about how awful it all is and what terrible people we all are, knowing that they are also full of shit.

None of it matters.

We should have listened to Lemmy.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 17, 2017, 02:11:18 pm
We should have listened to Lemmy.

Some of us did 8)
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Bu☆ns on July 06, 2017, 05:45:24 am
Quote from: http://fortune.com/2017/07/05/win-the-future-wtf-democratic-party
Win the Future, a new project started by Zynga co-founder Mark Pincus and Linkedin founder Reid Hoffman to rewire the Democratic Party, has officially launched. WTF, which appears to be a play on a far more explicit acronym, aims to help the party adopt a single-shared platform. The organization describes itself on its website as "pro-social, pro-planet, and pro-business"—though its exact agenda is up to its members.

Later, the article strongly implies Mark Zuckerberg's ambition...

Quote from: ohpleasegodnothiscantbehappening
The idea for WTF first emerged in early February, as the Democratic Party reeled from its surprising defeat in both the White House and in Congress. Since President Donald Trump's election, Silicon Valley appears to have waded deeper into the realm of politics, with some openly criticizing Trump's position on immigrants. Some Facebook supporters also formed a Super PAC to put Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg in the White House.

Recently, I've been hearing about Zuck and Musk hopping around spouting on about a UBI and how it's the only solution to the inevitable wave of automation.

For example, just today...
Quote from: http://thehill.com/policy/340685-zuckerberg-universal-basic-income-is-a-bipartisan-policy-the-us-should-explore
Zuckerberg: Universal basic income is a 'bipartisan idea'

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg is floating the idea of creating a universal basic income in the United States.

During the Alaska leg of his 50-state speaking tour, Zuckerberg advocated for giving individuals a lump sum of money annually, calling it a “bipartisan idea.”

Zuckerberg in a Facebook post praised Alaska’s own universal basic income system, which is known as the Permanent Fund Dividend. The state puts a portion of its annual oil revenue into the fund, which is then distributed to Alaskan residents at roughly $1,000 per person, depending on the year.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 27, 2017, 10:58:59 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Freeky on August 27, 2017, 12:20:15 pm
Quote
They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Because gerrymandering had nothing to do with it, of course.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2017, 09:13:38 pm
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.


BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2017, 09:14:30 pm

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

Also, Nazis are the fault of the democrats.   :lulz:

:tyra:
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 28, 2017, 12:56:55 am

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

Also, Nazis are the fault of the democrats.   :lulz:

:tyra:

No, but the media attention they've gotten lately is.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 28, 2017, 03:01:16 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.


BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN

BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN THIS FORUM IS MY OUTHOUSE AND I DIDN'T EVEN PRETEND TO READ THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF THE POST
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 29, 2017, 12:24:06 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.


BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN

BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN THIS FORUM IS MY OUTHOUSE AND I DIDN'T EVEN PRETEND TO READ THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF THE POST

You seem upset.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 29, 2017, 12:24:37 am

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

Also, Nazis are the fault of the democrats.   :lulz:

:tyra:

No, but the media attention they've gotten lately is.

That's a mighty fine dog-whistle you have there.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 29, 2017, 01:18:41 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.


BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN

BLAH BLAH BLAH HERE'S HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN THIS FORUM IS MY OUTHOUSE AND I DIDN'T EVEN PRETEND TO READ THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF THE POST

You seem upset.

You seem obtuse. Of course, things are not always what they seem.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Mr. Gone on August 29, 2017, 01:31:33 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

The parties are built on not being the other guy, not about what they are for, but it's been this way for awhile, it's just exploded to this level of loud, screeching gridlock.  And so we're now in the period where both parties are going to, not elect the person with the best platform and ideals, but the one who's best at being a carnival barker.

The solution? There is no solution. 

Buckle up and enjoy going nowhere.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 29, 2017, 01:39:50 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

The parties are built on not being the other guy, not about what they are for, but it's been this way for awhile, it's just exploded to this level of loud, screeching gridlock.  And so we're now in the period where both parties are going to, not elect the person with the best platform and ideals, but the one who's best at being a carnival barker.

The solution? There is no solution. 

Buckle up and enjoy going nowhere.

Welcome to all of humanity's political history.

And yet the wheels somehow stay on the cart.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: PoFP on August 29, 2017, 02:36:26 pm
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

The parties are built on not being the other guy, not about what they are for, but it's been this way for awhile, it's just exploded to this level of loud, screeching gridlock.  And so we're now in the period where both parties are going to, not elect the person with the best platform and ideals, but the one who's best at being a carnival barker.

The solution? There is no solution. 

Buckle up and enjoy going nowhere.

Welcome to all of humanity's political history.

And yet the wheels somehow stay on the cart.

It's like that shopping cart at the store that's got month-old coupons sitting in the top compartment, and the front wheels haven't turned properly since the store opened. And you're pretty sure that every time the front-left wheel does turn, an orphan dies. At least, that's what it sounds like.

The employees hear the noise as you use extra effort to push the cart along, but they don't care. That cart will be there for years to come. Eventually people will look back on what the cart used to be and think "Ah, when carts used to roll smoothly. Those were the days." But people weren't even alive for those days, and the carts were actually hand-baskets, because carts have never rolled smoothly.

But people will continue to say the wheels will roll smoothly if we just "make them the way we used to."

New people will come in and say we need to replace the wheels, and it will be fixed. Others will say we need to remove the coupons, or the top compartment altogether. And some people will say we need to go back to hand-baskets, but no one listens to those freaks.

And that's where we come in. We WD-40 them wheels, fill the cart up with FUCKING ORANGES, and send that bad-boy full-force, straight into the canned-goods isle.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 29, 2017, 06:40:13 pm
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

The parties are built on not being the other guy, not about what they are for, but it's been this way for awhile, it's just exploded to this level of loud, screeching gridlock.  And so we're now in the period where both parties are going to, not elect the person with the best platform and ideals, but the one who's best at being a carnival barker.

The solution? There is no solution. 

Buckle up and enjoy going nowhere.

Welcome to all of humanity's political history.

And yet the wheels somehow stay on the cart.

It's like that shopping cart at the store that's got month-old coupons sitting in the top compartment, and the front wheels haven't turned properly since the store opened. And you're pretty sure that every time the front-left wheel does turn, an orphan dies. At least, that's what it sounds like.

The employees hear the noise as you use extra effort to push the cart along, but they don't care. That cart will be there for years to come. Eventually people will look back on what the cart used to be and think "Ah, when carts used to roll smoothly. Those were the days." But people weren't even alive for those days, and the carts were actually hand-baskets, because carts have never rolled smoothly.

But people will continue to say the wheels will roll smoothly if we just "make them the way we used to."

New people will come in and say we need to replace the wheels, and it will be fixed. Others will say we need to remove the coupons, or the top compartment altogether. And some people will say we need to go back to hand-baskets, but no one listens to those freaks.

And that's where we come in. We WD-40 them wheels, fill the cart up with FUCKING ORANGES, and send that bad-boy full-force, straight into the canned-goods isle.

That's an incredibly accurate illustration. Left-right ideology seems to be either about returning to a past that never existed, or moving towards an impossible future.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: PoFP on August 29, 2017, 07:19:25 pm
It's like that shopping cart at the store that's got month-old coupons sitting in the top compartment, and the front wheels haven't turned properly since the store opened. And you're pretty sure that every time the front-left wheel does turn, an orphan dies. At least, that's what it sounds like.

The employees hear the noise as you use extra effort to push the cart along, but they don't care. That cart will be there for years to come. Eventually people will look back on what the cart used to be and think "Ah, when carts used to roll smoothly. Those were the days." But people weren't even alive for those days, and the carts were actually hand-baskets, because carts have never rolled smoothly.

But people will continue to say the wheels will roll smoothly if we just "make them the way we used to."

New people will come in and say we need to replace the wheels, and it will be fixed. Others will say we need to remove the coupons, or the top compartment altogether. And some people will say we need to go back to hand-baskets, but no one listens to those freaks.

And that's where we come in. We WD-40 them wheels, fill the cart up with FUCKING ORANGES, and send that bad-boy full-force, straight into the canned-goods isle.

That's an incredibly accurate illustration. Left-right ideology seems to be either about returning to a past that never existed, or moving towards an impossible future.

Thanks. That's what I was going for.

Problem is, we don't have enough FUCKING ORANGES, and they banned the "WD-40" in all important states except California, Colorado, and Nevada. Not to mention, the canned-good isle is currently occupied by Roger. But that's okay, he's just preparing it for the real party.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2017, 12:20:45 am
Just over a year ago, progressives and Democratic voters had a chance to really change things - to reform not just the Democratic party, but the country as well. Establishment Politics was the theme of Election 2016, and the Established Left shot themselves in the foot trying to stamp out the revolution.

They blew an election that they should have had in the bag.

Meanwhile, American progressives, in their march towards acceptance and equality, found themselves unsatisfied with all of the accomplishments they had made over the last eight years and actually began to alienate those to the right by entitling themselves to a brand of political correctness so far ahead of its time that even the moderates found themselves unable to defend it. Identity politics mixed with a right-wing paranoia of losing cultural control and created the Alt-Right, a band of misfits and misanthropes who not only delighted in triggering the left into abandoning their civility, but were masters of navigating the means to do so.

Winning that election empowered them to come out in full force and declare their pride in revisionist monuments to dead men who fought on the wrong side of history; a history that the cities they reside in have finally begun to evolve beyond. But it wasn't enough to show up in a sea of blinding whiteness. They came out in full cosplay as the one thing the left hates most.

And the progressives, so easily distracted, didn't take this opportunity to reexamine their ideology or the political party that had cannibalized itself in vain. They didn't try to figure out where they went wrong or why they lost. Instead, the radicals shouted "Hey, everyone! Look at the Nazis!"

And they looked.

The parties are built on not being the other guy, not about what they are for, but it's been this way for awhile, it's just exploded to this level of loud, screeching gridlock.  And so we're now in the period where both parties are going to, not elect the person with the best platform and ideals, but the one who's best at being a carnival barker.

The solution? There is no solution. 

Buckle up and enjoy going nowhere.

Welcome to all of humanity's political history.

And yet the wheels somehow stay on the cart.

It's like that shopping cart at the store that's got month-old coupons sitting in the top compartment, and the front wheels haven't turned properly since the store opened. And you're pretty sure that every time the front-left wheel does turn, an orphan dies. At least, that's what it sounds like.

The employees hear the noise as you use extra effort to push the cart along, but they don't care. That cart will be there for years to come. Eventually people will look back on what the cart used to be and think "Ah, when carts used to roll smoothly. Those were the days." But people weren't even alive for those days, and the carts were actually hand-baskets, because carts have never rolled smoothly.

But people will continue to say the wheels will roll smoothly if we just "make them the way we used to."

New people will come in and say we need to replace the wheels, and it will be fixed. Others will say we need to remove the coupons, or the top compartment altogether. And some people will say we need to go back to hand-baskets, but no one listens to those freaks.

And that's where we come in. We WD-40 them wheels, fill the cart up with FUCKING ORANGES, and send that bad-boy full-force, straight into the canned-goods isle.

You're having an exceptional case of The Holies™ right now.  :lol:

PREACH MORE, PLS.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2017, 12:21:15 am
It's like that shopping cart at the store that's got month-old coupons sitting in the top compartment, and the front wheels haven't turned properly since the store opened. And you're pretty sure that every time the front-left wheel does turn, an orphan dies. At least, that's what it sounds like.

The employees hear the noise as you use extra effort to push the cart along, but they don't care. That cart will be there for years to come. Eventually people will look back on what the cart used to be and think "Ah, when carts used to roll smoothly. Those were the days." But people weren't even alive for those days, and the carts were actually hand-baskets, because carts have never rolled smoothly.

But people will continue to say the wheels will roll smoothly if we just "make them the way we used to."

New people will come in and say we need to replace the wheels, and it will be fixed. Others will say we need to remove the coupons, or the top compartment altogether. And some people will say we need to go back to hand-baskets, but no one listens to those freaks.

And that's where we come in. We WD-40 them wheels, fill the cart up with FUCKING ORANGES, and send that bad-boy full-force, straight into the canned-goods isle.

That's an incredibly accurate illustration. Left-right ideology seems to be either about returning to a past that never existed, or moving towards an impossible future.

Thanks. That's what I was going for.

Problem is, we don't have enough FUCKING ORANGES, and they banned the "WD-40" in all important states except California, Colorado, and Nevada. Not to mention, the canned-good isle is currently occupied by Roger. But that's okay, he's just preparing it for the real party.

I'm just trying to see how many cans of tuna will fit in my ass.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2017, 12:21:58 am
Also, impossible futures are the only kind worth having.

Do great things or die miserably in the crash.

Hell, do both.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: PoFP on August 30, 2017, 12:54:15 am
You're having an exceptional case of The Holies™ right now.  :lol:

PREACH MORE, PLS.

 :thanks:

Thank you, I might later if I get some time.


Thanks. That's what I was going for.

Problem is, we don't have enough FUCKING ORANGES, and they banned the "WD-40" in all important states except California, Colorado, and Nevada. Not to mention, the canned-good isle is currently occupied by Roger. But that's okay, he's just preparing it for the real party.

I'm just trying to see how many cans of tuna will fit in my ass.

See? I knew he would turn this party into a RAGER.

Also, impossible futures are the only kind worth having.

Do great things or die miserably in the crash.

Hell, do both.

I had never really thought about it this way before. Congratulations Roger, you've just converted a Conservative Romantic into a Liberal.

You and Nigel always had a way of changing my mind with just words. Often times, it only took one line.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 30, 2017, 01:54:26 am
I'm just trying to see how many cans of tuna will fit in my ass.

It's more fun if you use live tuna and raw iron.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 30, 2017, 01:56:10 am
impossible futures are the only kind worth having.

I disagree, and yet, in a way, I agree. Either way, I like this quote.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on August 30, 2017, 02:02:59 am
What good is achieving something that's possible? You don't prove anything and you don't learn anything that way. Trying to achieve the impossible is the only way forward, and even when you inevitably fail, you'll often be surprised by how close you came to succeeding. You'll make progress in spite of your failure.

I meant to add something snide here at the end but I couldn't think of anything.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on August 30, 2017, 02:07:58 am
Perhaps what we really need then is an Impossible Party.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2017, 02:43:26 am
What good is achieving something that's possible? You don't prove anything and you don't learn anything that way. Trying to achieve the impossible is the only way forward, and even when you inevitably fail, you'll often be surprised by how close you came to succeeding. You'll make progress in spite of your failure.

I meant to add something snide here at the end but I couldn't think of anything.

Ron the Engineer: "I don't know if I'm cut out for this job.  It's insane."

TGRR:  "Shhh.  We're going to do great things."
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on August 30, 2017, 05:43:24 am
Possible is huddling in a dark cave, picking fleas out each others fur and wishing for bison. Literally everything else humans have accomplished used to be impossible.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on August 30, 2017, 12:54:08 pm
Possible is huddling in a dark cave, picking fleas out each others fur and wishing for bison. Literally everything else humans have accomplished used to be impossible.

:mittens:
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: PoFP on August 30, 2017, 01:46:58 pm
Possible is huddling in a dark cave, picking fleas out each others fur and wishing for bison. Literally everything else humans have accomplished used to be impossible.

:mittens: for sure.



You guys mind if I use these recent quotes about "possible vs impossible?" I think I know a few people who might need to hear them, just as I did.

Let me know who I should credit them to, as well.

Also, if one of these was turned into a poster, I'd put it up in my apartment. And possibly all over town.


Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on August 30, 2017, 02:17:09 pm
Anything I write is up for grabs. Credit me, credit someone else, take the credit yourself if you want. I don't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: LMNO on August 30, 2017, 02:32:07 pm
Also, paging QG for Big Words.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 18, 2017, 06:12:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/FQkJUNQ.jpg)

There's a version with a full color background, too.
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 18, 2017, 06:24:05 pm
Fuck yeah!
:mittens:
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: freshmeat on September 18, 2017, 08:22:47 pm
Liberalism (not classical liberalism, but what postures as Liberalism today) is dead

good riddance

The Founders would so not love you assholes

Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on September 19, 2017, 01:58:56 am

The Founders would so not love you assholes

Sounds like a Star Trek villain...

Newsfeed maybe?
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: freshmeat on September 19, 2017, 04:19:24 am

The Founders would so not love you assholes

Sounds like a Star Trek villain...

Newsfeed maybe?

only a Google bot could post something so irrationalvent.

Get thee behind us AI wanna be!
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 19, 2017, 05:43:35 am
Liberalism (not classical liberalism, but what postures as Liberalism today) is dead

good riddance

The Founders would so not love you assholes

So Benjamin Franklin was a teabagger?   :lulz:
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 19, 2017, 07:55:35 am
Benjamin Franklin? Wasn't he the dude that thought flying kites in lightning storms was a good idea? Kinda posterboy for US government dontcha think?
Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 19, 2017, 07:06:56 pm
Benjamin Franklin? Wasn't he the dude that thought flying kites in lightning storms was a good idea? Kinda posterboy for US government dontcha think?

Well, he had someone else fly the kite, so your point still stands.

Title: Re: Democrats Decide to Just Go Ahead and Implode
Post by: PoFP on September 21, 2017, 01:55:49 pm
Benjamin Franklin? Wasn't he the dude that thought flying kites in lightning storms was a good idea? Kinda posterboy for US government dontcha think?

Well, he had someone else fly the kite, so your point still stands.

 :lulz: :lulz: