Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2017, 02:12:25 am

Title: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2017, 02:12:25 am
So one of our inexperienced guys, working under an inexperienced supervisor (skilled engineer, but new to supervision), managed to mash his finger doing a job that was outside of his training.  And he wasn't trained enough to *know* that it was outside of his training.  7 stitches, an OSHA recordable incident, yada yada.  He has fully recovered, with only a teensy scar.

Now corporate safety is inclined to fire the guy and his supervisor.

The common joke is that North Korea can't make proper rockets because they shoot anyone that fails, under the assumption that you motivate people to succeed by getting rid of anyone who fails due to lack of experience.

Does anyone else see the fatal flaw here, or is it just me?

Any body of knowledge is built on a foundation of failures and mistakes.  You don't learn by success, because whatever you did was right and the assumption of being right is addictive as hell.  No, you learn by sometimes mashing your finger.

And learning should not be punishable by being fired.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Don Coyote on July 12, 2017, 02:22:54 am
I would have learned a lot less about how to operate CNC machines if I hadn't fucked up tools a couple of times among other shit I learned the hard way working in that industry.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2017, 02:31:37 am
I would have learned a lot less about how to operate CNC machines if I hadn't fucked up tools a couple of times among other shit I learned the hard way working in that industry.

Yes.  Learning is expensive and painful, but the other option is to not ever do anything.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 12, 2017, 01:14:47 pm
I think it should only be consistent underperformance or preventable accident that should get you canned, and then only after an attempt at salvage with more focused training. It's not just the retention of knowledge but also the sheer cost of a new hire over properly maintaining an existing employee. Sometimes the axe should fall fast for things like violence, drugs, and sexual misconduct, but those are extreme. Regular failure is just the cost of doing business.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Hoopla on July 12, 2017, 11:32:21 pm
One would think it would occur to the corporate management that someone who mashed a finger was significantly less likely to do so again than someone new being put into the same situation.

But what do I know.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 13, 2017, 12:57:13 am
Well, they're not firing either of them because they got sick of me calling them up with "OH, AND ANOTHER THING..."

My boss has decided that I am autistic.  Not in a "humorous" way, but also seems to think that this adds value.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 13, 2017, 03:21:23 am
You could always do what my old company did: never improve processes, never deliver on your impossible promises, but DO create a salaried position whose sole reason for existing was to fill it with an unwitting sucker who you could fire six months later for fucking everything up, then rinse and repeat with the endless supply of such suckers the workforce provides in abundance.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 13, 2017, 03:41:04 am
You could always do what my old company did: never improve processes, never deliver on your impossible promises, but DO create a salaried position whose sole reason for existing was to fill it with an unwitting sucker who you could fire six months later for fucking everything up, then rinse and repeat with the endless supply of such suckers the workforce provides in abundance.

Our new safety technician just quit.

Not because of this, but because he got a job with the state of Arizona.

This is a man who voted for Trump and hates all aspects of government.

I love Arizona so much I could SHIT MY PANTS. 
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 13, 2017, 06:04:19 am
You could always do what my old company did: never improve processes, never deliver on your impossible promises, but DO create a salaried position whose sole reason for existing was to fill it with an unwitting sucker who you could fire six months later for fucking everything up, then rinse and repeat with the endless supply of such suckers the workforce provides in abundance.

Our new safety technician just quit.

Not because of this, but because he got a job with the state of Arizona.

This is a man who voted for Trump and hates all aspects of government.

I love Arizona so much I could SHIT MY PANTS. 

All the most fervent anti-government people I know have been employed by the state at one point or another. I'm pretty sure it's less an administration than an indoctrination program.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: LMNO on July 13, 2017, 01:12:49 pm
the Ron Swanson approach from Parks and Recreation isn't so funny anymore....
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Hoopla on July 13, 2017, 02:22:23 pm
the Ron Swanson approach from Parks and Recreation isn't so funny anymore....

Agreed.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2017, 04:32:21 pm
I am OK with North Korean rocket scientists being executed for failure, though.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Faust on July 13, 2017, 04:42:34 pm
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 13, 2017, 11:05:03 pm
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.

I wasn't aware that he had committed war crimes?
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Brother Mythos on July 14, 2017, 04:22:38 am
I, for one, don’t doubt for a second those rascally SS boys at Peenemünde only insisted Wernher von Braun join their ranks because they needed one more to justify building an officers’ club. And, I’m sure the SS only promoted him to the rank of Sturmbannführer (Major) because he led them in singing the best drinking songs.

And, who hasn’t utilized slave labor to build their secret weapons development facilities? I mean, who would trust those lazy, over-priced, trade union guys to do that kind of skilled construction work?
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2017, 04:38:18 am
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.

I wasn't aware that he had committed war crimes?

He used slave labour for the V-2 rocket program and oversaw the beatings and torture of those "workers" suspected of sabotage.

I also can't find reference to it, but I'm pretty sure being a member of the SS was also considered a war crime after WW2, albeit of a lesser nature than the crimes of waging aggressive war and genocide.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Brother Mythos on July 14, 2017, 04:44:44 am
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.

I wasn't aware that he had committed war crimes?

He used slave labour for the V-2 rocket program and oversaw the beatings and torture of those "workers" suspected of sabotage.

I also can't find reference to it, but I'm pretty sure being a member of the SS was also considered a war crime after WW2, albeit of a lesser nature than the crimes of waging aggressive war and genocide.

The SS reference is right here in his Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2017, 04:46:26 am
I meant reference to the crime of being an SS member.  I know he was an SS member, that's not in doubt.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Brother Mythos on July 14, 2017, 04:50:13 am
I meant reference to the crime of being an SS member.  I know he was an SS member, that's not in doubt.

My mistake.

I'm not sure if simply being a member of the SS was a war crime either. But, I'll make an attempt to find out.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2017, 05:01:45 am
Here we go.  The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal organisation.

"The Tribunal finds that knowledge of these criminal activities was sufficiently general to justify declaring that the SS was a criminal organisation to the extent hereinafter described. It does appear that an attempt was made to keep secret some phases of its activities, but its criminal programmes were so widespread, and involved slaughter on such a gigantic scale, that its criminal activities must have been widely known. It must be recognised, moreover, that the criminal activities of the SS followed quite logically from the principles on which it was organised."
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Brother Mythos on July 14, 2017, 05:19:25 am
Here we go.  The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal organisation.

"The Tribunal finds that knowledge of these criminal activities was sufficiently general to justify declaring that the SS was a criminal organisation to the extent hereinafter described. It does appear that an attempt was made to keep secret some phases of its activities, but its criminal programmes were so widespread, and involved slaughter on such a gigantic scale, that its criminal activities must have been widely known. It must be recognised, moreover, that the criminal activities of the SS followed quite logically from the principles on which it was organised."

I concur.

Here’s the proof from “Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol.1 – Indictment”

(Bold type is mine.)

II. The following are named as groups or organizations (since dissolved) which should be declared criminal by reason of their aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof and in connection with the conviction of such of the named defendants as were members thereof: DIE REICHSREGIERUNG (REICH CABINET); DAS KORPS DER POLITISCHEN LEITER DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (LEADERSHIP CORPS OF THE NAZI PARTY); DIE SCHUTZSTAFFELN DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (commonly known as the "SS") and including DER SICHERHEITSDIENST (commonly known as the "SD"); DIE GEHEIME STAATSPOLIZEI (SECRET STATE POLICE, commonly known as the "GESTAPO"); DIE STURMABTEILUNGEN DER NSDAP (commonly known as the "SA"); and the GENERAL STAFF of the HIGH COMMAND of the GERMAN ARMED FORCES.

Here’s the link: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/count.asp
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 14, 2017, 05:59:39 am
I, for one, don’t doubt for a second those rascally SS boys at Peenemünde only insisted Wernher von Braun join their ranks because they needed one more to justify building an officers’ club. And, I’m sure the SS only promoted him to the rank of Sturmbannführer (Major) because he led them in singing the best drinking songs.

And, who hasn’t utilized slave labor to build their secret weapons development facilities? I mean, who would trust those lazy, over-priced, trade union guys to do that kind of skilled construction work?

Well, the slave labor bit was after Peenemunde, when the majority of the research was relocated to Austria.  Slave labor from Mauthausen-Gusen was used to create the second installation.  Peenemunde itself was built by Luftwaffe engineers.

When Von Braun went to Mittelwerk plant to select "workers" based on their education, he said:

Quote from: wikipedia
"It is hellish. My spontaneous reaction was to talk to one of the SS guards, only to be told with unmistakable harshness that I should mind my own business, or find myself in the same striped fatigues! ... I realized that any attempt of reasoning on humane grounds would be utterly futile."

There is absolutely no doubt that he knew by 1944 what was happening to the Jews, but by then nobody could speak up without being made an object lesson for the others.

Quote
When asked if von Braun could have protested against the brutal treatment of the slave laborers, von Braun team member Konrad Dannenberg (a member of the Nazi party since 1932) told The Huntsville Times, "If he had done it, in my opinion, he would have been shot on the spot."

He was in fact arrested by the gestapo at one point for his bad attitude.

So if Werner Von Braun was guilty of anything, it was cowardice.  He does not appear to have himself been a monster.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 14, 2017, 06:04:13 am
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.

I wasn't aware that he had committed war crimes?

He used slave labour for the V-2 rocket program and oversaw the beatings and torture of those "workers" suspected of sabotage.

I also can't find reference to it, but I'm pretty sure being a member of the SS was also considered a war crime after WW2, albeit of a lesser nature than the crimes of waging aggressive war and genocide.

The beatings and torture supervision was never proven.  The reference states:

Quote
Some prisoners claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt, von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[44] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner, claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[44]:123–124 However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[45] Former Buchenwald inmate Adam Cabala claims that von Braun went to the concentration camp to pick slave laborers: "[...] also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty and bestiality during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. But, Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses".[46]



Don't you guys get me wrong...I don't have much sympathy for Nazis or those who work for them.  Von Braun was guilty of "working for monsters to advance his pet project", and "Lacking the moral courage to speak out or otherwise hinder the ongoing crimes", as opposed to "massacring slavs on the Eastern front" or "herding Jews into cattle cars."
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 14, 2017, 06:07:09 am
But, Brother Mythos, I am glad that my thread about not shooting a man for his first mistake has turned into yet another (at least sarcastic) inference that I am somehow a fucking Nazi sympathizer.

I had this stupid hope that things had turned around here.

Fuck this shit.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Faust on July 14, 2017, 06:27:25 am
My point wasn't that he was a monster, it's that the debate could never happen, he was offered amnesty as part of operation paperclip, his work was literally important to the exclusion of all else.

Inexperience good men get sacrificed when projects go wrong, questionable men never get questioned when they are vital to a project. I've seen both happen in the last place I worked
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2017, 09:32:32 am
And at the other end of the spectrum, is Wernher Von Braun. Too good at his job to be fired, and far too busy to stand trial for war crimes.

I wasn't aware that he had committed war crimes?

He used slave labour for the V-2 rocket program and oversaw the beatings and torture of those "workers" suspected of sabotage.

I also can't find reference to it, but I'm pretty sure being a member of the SS was also considered a war crime after WW2, albeit of a lesser nature than the crimes of waging aggressive war and genocide.

The beatings and torture supervision was never proven.  The reference states:

Quote
Some prisoners claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt, von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[44] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner, claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[44]:123–124 However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[45] Former Buchenwald inmate Adam Cabala claims that von Braun went to the concentration camp to pick slave laborers: "[...] also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty and bestiality during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. But, Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses".[46]



Don't you guys get me wrong...I don't have much sympathy for Nazis or those who work for them.  Von Braun was guilty of "working for monsters to advance his pet project", and "Lacking the moral courage to speak out or otherwise hinder the ongoing crimes", as opposed to "massacring slavs on the Eastern front" or "herding Jews into cattle cars."

I'll admit I was going off memory with that one.  Still, I will note that I don't exactly trust that we have all the records for people who were considered of critical interest by the intelligence and defence services after the war - entire armed groups had their histories re-written by OSS personnel so that when the CIA formed, they had a relatively "clean slate" for when they were hired on.  Belarussian and Ukrainian anti-Communists who happened to be raging Nazis were recast as "democratic freedom fighters", for example.

But that's an argument from lack of evidence, which isn't the same as proof, so I concede the point.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: Brother Mythos on July 14, 2017, 10:05:33 pm
But, Brother Mythos, I am glad that my thread about not shooting a man for his first mistake has turned into yet another (at least sarcastic) inference that I am somehow a fucking Nazi sympathizer.

I had this stupid hope that things had turned around here.

Fuck this shit.

My sarcasm was not intended to be a personal insult. Quite frankly, in light of the insults you so freely throw around, I’m more than a little surprised to find you chose to be personally insulted by my post.

In any case, you might find the following to be of interest:

“A History of the Dora Camp: The Story of the Nazi Slave Labor Camp that Secretly Manufactured V-2 Rockets”

This article, a book review, can be found on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website.

From the article (Bold type mine): “André Sellier’s History of the Dora Camp is the definitive and valuable study of the slave labor camp in which thousands were worked to death to produce V2 rocket missiles under the technical supervision of the SS member Wernher von Braun. The book is a valuable contribution to our awareness of the depravity of the Nazi regime and its plans for the utter exploitation of all peoples under its control.”

Here’s the link: https://www.ushmm.org/research/publications/academic-publications/full-list-of-academic-publications/a-history-of-the-dora-camp-the-story-of-the-nazi-slave-labor-camp-that
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 14, 2017, 11:10:03 pm
But, Brother Mythos, I am glad that my thread about not shooting a man for his first mistake has turned into yet another (at least sarcastic) inference that I am somehow a fucking Nazi sympathizer.

I had this stupid hope that things had turned around here.

Fuck this shit.

My sarcasm was not intended to be a personal insult. Quite frankly, in light of the insults you so freely throw around, I’m more than a little surprised to find you chose to be personally insulted by my post.

In any case, you might find the following to be of interest:

“A History of the Dora Camp: The Story of the Nazi Slave Labor Camp that Secretly Manufactured V-2 Rockets”

This article, a book review, can be found on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website.

From the article (Bold type mine): “André Sellier’s History of the Dora Camp is the definitive and valuable study of the slave labor camp in which thousands were worked to death to produce V2 rocket missiles under the technical supervision of the SS member Wernher von Braun. The book is a valuable contribution to our awareness of the depravity of the Nazi regime and its plans for the utter exploitation of all peoples under its control.”

Here’s the link: https://www.ushmm.org/research/publications/academic-publications/full-list-of-academic-publications/a-history-of-the-dora-camp-the-story-of-the-nazi-slave-labor-camp-that

You get to be right.  I don't care.  YOU WIN THE ARGUMENT!  Go be right at someone else.
Title: Re: North Korean Rocket Engineering and You.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 14, 2017, 11:12:59 pm
My point wasn't that he was a monster, it's that the debate could never happen, he was offered amnesty as part of operation paperclip, his work was literally important to the exclusion of all else.

Yeah, that's mostly on account of we had a few monsters of our own.  Curtis LeMay comes to mind.

Quote
Inexperience good men get sacrificed when projects go wrong, questionable men never get questioned when they are vital to a project. I've seen both happen in the last place I worked

Actually, in this set of circumstances, the inexperienced safety manager would have thrown anyone under the bus, regardless of how vital that person was, simply because no other option looked safe.