Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 06, 2018, 12:13:58 am

Title: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 06, 2018, 12:13:58 am
While on another forum I frequent I came across a topic from a poster who was confused about what constituted the "left" and the " right politically, as he had seen contradictory explanations. Inspired by that I came up with a handy chart and posted it as a response. I'd like to repost it here too:

The Right is about:

*regressive abrahamic superstition
*pathological obsession with money and power
*being a shill for polluters and robber barons
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that can't be done better and cheaper by a machine
*white supremicism
*proudly ignorant backwoods hicks
*a bizarrely narrow view of what kind of relationships are acceptable
*bullshit degrees in divinity
*fear and hatred of science
*the racist, sectarian, nationalistic, cultural chauvinist, sexist, homophobic, militant, and world dominating aspects of Naziism

The Left is about:

*fatuous new-age superstition
*insufferably saccharine and/or emo obsession with feelings and identity
*being a pipe-dreaming hippie
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that are useful
*refusal to integrate/assimilate
*pseudointellectuals
*a bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent
*bullshit degrees in the humanities
*fear and hatred of technology
*the eugenic, and scientifically unethical aspects of Naziism
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 06, 2018, 12:55:05 am
Which portion of your ass did you pull this out of?
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 06, 2018, 12:55:24 am
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 06, 2018, 01:52:48 am
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

Technically can't have had any alcohol, even if it's not enough to get drunk, which rules out most of dates.

Besides, it's not a motor vehicle, nobody's gonna crash their bed into a bunch of pedestrians.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 06, 2018, 02:38:19 am
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

Technically can't have had any alcohol, even if it's not enough to get drunk, which rules out most of dates.

Besides, it's not a motor vehicle, nobody's gonna crash their bed into a bunch of pedestrians.

This right here is what we call a "Babylin Horuv moment."
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LMNO on April 06, 2018, 01:03:41 pm
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

Technically can't have had any alcohol, even if it's not enough to get drunk, which rules out most of dates.

Besides, it's not a motor vehicle, nobody's gonna crash their bed into a bunch of pedestrians.

This right here is what we call a "Babylin Horuv moment."

 :peedee:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2018, 11:56:35 pm
OK boys, time to pack it in, it's all been figured out for us.

(http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/philosophy/DavidDeath-of-Socrates1.jpg)
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 08, 2018, 07:44:08 am
OK boys, time to pack it in, it's all been figured out for us.

(http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/philosophy/DavidDeath-of-Socrates1.jpg)

 :lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Hoopla on April 09, 2018, 07:14:49 pm
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

Technically can't have had any alcohol, even if it's not enough to get drunk, which rules out most of dates.

Besides, it's not a motor vehicle, nobody's gonna crash their bed into a bunch of pedestrians.

Hoo boy.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2018, 12:58:51 am
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

Technically can't have had any alcohol, even if it's not enough to get drunk, which rules out most of dates.

Besides, it's not a motor vehicle, nobody's gonna crash their bed into a bunch of pedestrians.

Hoo boy.

You always knew it would come to this.  You can't say this is a surprise.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: PoFP on April 10, 2018, 02:56:35 pm
I honestly can't tell if he's a self-loathing masochist who requires negative attention, or if he's just so attention-starved and socially retarded that he takes whatever attention he can get. He seems to stick around, regardless of how many times we tell him how horrible he is (And he hasn't improved in the slightest over the years.), so I can only assume it's the former. Usually, even attention-starved morons can only take so many beatings.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 10, 2018, 03:19:49 pm
Inspired by that I came up with a handy chart and posted it as a response

I guess the important thing is that you found a way to feel superior to everybody without exposing your own obviously better values to potential scrutiny.


Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LuciferX on April 11, 2018, 10:00:30 am
I honestly can't tell if he's a self-loathing masochist who requires negative attention, or if he's just so attention-starved and socially retarded that he takes whatever attention he can get. He seems to stick around, regardless of how many times we tell him how horrible he is (And he hasn't improved in the slightest over the years.), so I can only assume it's the former. Usually, even attention-starved morons can only take so many beatings.

"Mystery Man: In the East, the Far East, when a person is sentenced to death
 they're sent to a place where they can't escape, never knowing when..."

I just felt like saying that, because I'm a badass motherfucker, so I walk and talk this way.
 
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Frontside Back on April 12, 2018, 01:10:01 am
The Left is about:
*getting into power
*holding the power
*preventing the other side getting into power

The Right is about:
*getting into power
*holding the power
*preventing the other side getting into power

The two sides are there to give you something "fresh" when the one in power happens to consist of power hungry morons.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2018, 01:11:40 am
The Left is about:
*getting into power
*holding the power
*preventing the other side getting into power

The Right is about:
*getting into power
*holding the power
*preventing the other side getting into power

The two sides are there to give you something "fresh" when the one in power happens to consist of power hungry morons.

Well, yes.  The left and right are monstrous gigantic entities, not collections of people or anything.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Frontside Back on April 12, 2018, 03:00:50 am
The left and right are monstrous gigantic entities, not collections of people or anything.

People, to me, seem to be pretty prone to form monstrous gigantic entities.

When talking about what heavily abstracted coupling of ideas and people like right/left want to do in this world, it's mainly about survival.

Things made out of people eat people to sustain themselves.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2018, 04:03:08 am
The left and right are monstrous gigantic entities, not collections of people or anything.

People, to me, seem to be pretty prone to form monstrous gigantic entities.

When talking about what heavily abstracted coupling of ideas and people like right/left want to do in this world, it's mainly about survival.

Things made out of people eat people to sustain themselves.

Welcome to all of human history.  Put your feet up, and feel free to feel smug that you're not dumb like those humans.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 15, 2018, 05:23:45 pm
I'm so far beyond the primitive left/right paradigm that all you rubes are backward conservatives compared to my enlightened progressivism.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2018, 07:52:22 pm
I'm so far beyond the primitive left/right paradigm that all you rubes are backward conservatives compared to my enlightened progressivism.

I'm so far advanced that I had the left and right side of my body amputated.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: PoFP on April 16, 2018, 01:54:27 pm
I honestly can't tell if he's a self-loathing masochist who requires negative attention, or if he's just so attention-starved and socially retarded that he takes whatever attention he can get. He seems to stick around, regardless of how many times we tell him how horrible he is (And he hasn't improved in the slightest over the years.), so I can only assume it's the former. Usually, even attention-starved morons can only take so many beatings.

"Mystery Man: In the East, the Far East, when a person is sentenced to death
 they're sent to a place where they can't escape, never knowing when..."

I just felt like saying that, because I'm a badass motherfucker, so I walk and talk this way.

I don't know why, but I laughed for a good 5 minutes at this.  :lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: PretentiousMovieDirector on April 16, 2018, 02:37:44 pm
I'm so far beyond the primitive left/right paradigm that all you rubes are backward conservatives compared to my enlightened progressivism.

I'm so far advanced that I had the left and right side of my body amputated.

I'm so advanced that I had Trent's left and right sides amputated.

You see, my progressive advancement is so far beyond that of the physical, that I amputated Trent as a metaphor for the elimination of physical differentiation between all living things, including neurological tendency toward one area of the political spectrum over the other. At this point, my existence lies only in the unspeakable metaphysical world, only accessible by abstract analogy that is only achievable with art.

NO, STEVE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO ROB ME OF MY LATTE, YOU LITTLE TWIT. AND SUSAN, THAT LAST ARC SHOT MADE ME SICK TO MY STOMACH - AND NOT BECAUSE I GET MOTION SICKNESS. IF YOU DON'T GET ME A PACK OF MINTS IN THE NEXT 30 SECONDS, I WILL MAKE YOUR RIGHT AND LEFT HALVES UNDIFFERENTIABLE TO YOUR BRAIN. YOU WILL MOVE SYMMETRICALLY FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 17, 2018, 05:07:24 am
I'm so far beyond the primitive left/right paradigm that all you rubes are backward conservatives compared to my enlightened progressivism.

I'm so far advanced that I had the left and right side of my body amputated.

I'm so advanced that I had Trent's left and right sides amputated.

You see, my progressive advancement is so far beyond that of the physical, that I amputated Trent as a metaphor for the elimination of physical differentiation between all living things, including neurological tendency toward one area of the political spectrum over the other. At this point, my existence lies only in the unspeakable metaphysical world, only accessible by abstract analogy that is only achievable with art.

NO, STEVE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO ROB ME OF MY LATTE, YOU LITTLE TWIT. AND SUSAN, THAT LAST ARC SHOT MADE ME SICK TO MY STOMACH - AND NOT BECAUSE I GET MOTION SICKNESS. IF YOU DON'T GET ME A PACK OF MINTS IN THE NEXT 30 SECONDS, I WILL MAKE YOUR RIGHT AND LEFT HALVES UNDIFFERENTIABLE TO YOUR BRAIN. YOU WILL MOVE SYMMETRICALLY FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.

PMD makes every thread better.   :lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: PretentiousMovieDirector on April 17, 2018, 06:39:01 pm
While on another forum I frequent I came across a topic from a poster who was confused about what constituted the "left" and the " right politically, as he had seen contradictory explanations. Inspired by that I came up with a handy chart and posted it as a response. I'd like to repost it here too:

The Right is about:

*regressive abrahamic superstition
*pathological obsession with money and power
*being a shill for polluters and robber barons
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that can't be done better and cheaper by a machine
*white supremicism
*proudly ignorant backwoods hicks
*a bizarrely narrow view of what kind of relationships are acceptable
*bullshit degrees in divinity
*fear and hatred of science
*the racist, sectarian, nationalistic, cultural chauvinist, sexist, homophobic, militant, and world dominating aspects of Naziism

The Left is about:

*fatuous new-age superstition
*insufferably saccharine and/or emo obsession with feelings and identity
*being a pipe-dreaming hippie
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that are useful
*refusal to integrate/assimilate
*pseudointellectuals
*a bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent
*bullshit degrees in the humanities
*fear and hatred of technology
*the eugenic, and scientifically unethical aspects of Naziism

What the fuck? CUT!

YOU come to ME begging for a chance at fame and fortune, and you give me this mainstream, moderate, bourgeoisie B-List bullshit? Being in the middle is the equivalent of not caring.

Having the whole world hate you makes you a Super Villain that the masses can cherish. Having the whole world hate you because you won't take a side in the fight against evil makes you a FUCKING HIPSTER CUNT-STAIN.

WHAT DID I DO TO THE LAST HIPSTER CUNT-STAIN WHO STEPPED FOOT ON THIS SET? ANYONE?...

I AMPUTATED BOTH OF HIS HALVES TO CREATE A METAPHOR. SUSAN GET ME MY GODDAMN WATER PILLS. MY BLOOD PRESSURE IS REACHING CURLY HOWARD LEVELS.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 17, 2018, 08:07:03 pm
 :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 18, 2018, 12:07:50 am
While on another forum I frequent I came across a topic from a poster who was confused about what constituted the "left" and the " right politically, as he had seen contradictory explanations. Inspired by that I came up with a handy chart and posted it as a response. I'd like to repost it here too:

The Right is about:

*regressive abrahamic superstition
*pathological obsession with money and power
*being a shill for polluters and robber barons
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that can't be done better and cheaper by a machine
*white supremicism
*proudly ignorant backwoods hicks
*a bizarrely narrow view of what kind of relationships are acceptable
*bullshit degrees in divinity
*fear and hatred of science
*the racist, sectarian, nationalistic, cultural chauvinist, sexist, homophobic, militant, and world dominating aspects of Naziism

The Left is about:

*fatuous new-age superstition
*insufferably saccharine and/or emo obsession with feelings and identity
*being a pipe-dreaming hippie
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that are useful
*refusal to integrate/assimilate
*pseudointellectuals
*a bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent
*bullshit degrees in the humanities
*fear and hatred of technology
*the eugenic, and scientifically unethical aspects of Naziism

What the fuck? CUT!

YOU come to ME begging for a chance at fame and fortune, and you give me this mainstream, moderate, bourgeoisie B-List bullshit? Being in the middle is the equivalent of not caring.

Having the whole world hate you makes you a Super Villain that the masses can cherish. Having the whole world hate you because you won't take a side in the fight against evil makes you a FUCKING HIPSTER CUNT-STAIN.

Oh, I've sided with the left, but only because they're the lesser of two evils. Like, they're both shit but the Democrats and the left are like stepping in dog shit whereas the right and the Republicans are like drowning in a spetic tank. One is clearly preferable to the other but neither are something I want.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LuciferX on April 18, 2018, 01:26:15 am
There's dog shit, cat shit... then there's Herman Muller's ratchet. If something like sex came out of needing to eliminate the irreversible accumulation of shit expression, then I say vive la difference!!!
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2018, 11:39:14 pm
Left and right - two sides of the same centrist retard
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 20, 2018, 12:27:36 am
Left and right - two sides of the same centrist retard

Left and right up and down, it's all the same 1984 Duck speak
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2018, 12:54:56 am
While on another forum I frequent I came across a topic from a poster who was confused about what constituted the "left" and the " right politically, as he had seen contradictory explanations. Inspired by that I came up with a handy chart and posted it as a response. I'd like to repost it here too:

The Right is about:

*regressive abrahamic superstition
*pathological obsession with money and power
*being a shill for polluters and robber barons
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that can't be done better and cheaper by a machine
*white supremicism
*proudly ignorant backwoods hicks
*a bizarrely narrow view of what kind of relationships are acceptable
*bullshit degrees in divinity
*fear and hatred of science
*the racist, sectarian, nationalistic, cultural chauvinist, sexist, homophobic, militant, and world dominating aspects of Naziism

The Left is about:

*fatuous new-age superstition
*insufferably saccharine and/or emo obsession with feelings and identity
*being a pipe-dreaming hippie
*difficulty getting a job due to lack of skills that are useful
*refusal to integrate/assimilate
*pseudointellectuals
*a bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent
*bullshit degrees in the humanities
*fear and hatred of technology
*the eugenic, and scientifically unethical aspects of Naziism

What the fuck? CUT!

YOU come to ME begging for a chance at fame and fortune, and you give me this mainstream, moderate, bourgeoisie B-List bullshit? Being in the middle is the equivalent of not caring.

Having the whole world hate you makes you a Super Villain that the masses can cherish. Having the whole world hate you because you won't take a side in the fight against evil makes you a FUCKING HIPSTER CUNT-STAIN.

WHAT DID I DO TO THE LAST HIPSTER CUNT-STAIN WHO STEPPED FOOT ON THIS SET? ANYONE?...

I AMPUTATED BOTH OF HIS HALVES TO CREATE A METAPHOR. SUSAN GET ME MY GODDAMN WATER PILLS. MY BLOOD PRESSURE IS REACHING CURLY HOWARD LEVELS.

Marry me.   :lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2018, 12:55:31 am

Oh, I've sided with the left, but only because they're the lesser of two evils. Like, they're both shit but the Democrats and the left are like stepping in dog shit whereas the right and the Republicans are like drowning in a spetic tank. One is clearly preferable to the other but neither are something I want.

Well, what the fuck DO you want?
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 20, 2018, 02:12:04 am
For nobody to believe in any higher power. For no religion in the entire world and all of history to be respected, whether new or old, whether western, eastern, african or other.  For the old traditional and abrahamic values to disappear without anything taking their place. For arbitrary rules of decorum to be eliminated. For the end of sexual norms once and for all. For all cultural norms in the entire world to be eliminated and replaced with nothing. For all distinctions between races, cultures, and ethnicities to be cast down and forgotten. For all gender expression to be eliminated due to all gender specificity of anything (clothing, bathrooms, sports teams, etc.) being eliminated. For the institution of marriage to be eliminated. For all cultures and peoples of the world to be merged into a single superculture.

Also socialized medicine and legal pot, mushrooms, and prostitution and reform of IP law and heavy punitive regulations on many industries
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 20, 2018, 04:13:40 am
Regarding race and ethnicity what I want to do is take the sameness of order, where everything is pigeonholed into neat little boxes of identical things, and replace it with the sameness of chaos, where absolutely everything has been mixed together and there is no longer any way to un-mix it. The left wants people to be equal and that's a good start, but a lot of them adamantly want to leave it at that. They want races to be equal, but are fine with some things being specific to that race. There are black things, and white things, and asian things, and native a,erican things and at another level there are eastern european things and chinese things and japanese things and french things and american things and german things and so forth and if an asian person or white person does a black thing, or if a white person or black person does an asian thing, or a german person foes a russian thing, or an american does a french thing or whatever they get called out for "cultural appropriation". At most sometimes someone can vhange from one to another but they're not allowed to mix and match however suits them They're equal but they're treated like they're different animals; like they're cows, pigs, and sheep and aren't penned together. I want to get to the point where the cow the pig and the sheep are all the same hotdog. Preferably by friday although I know that's not realistic at this late hour.

EDIT:
And I know that people will say that the different culture specific things reflect the specific history and forebearers of that cultural group, but why should I care about the differences between different piles of old skeletons, (or indeed about anything that happened before 1995 or so that isn't ongoing* - including things that happened to me personally)?

*(EDIT: I'm talking about specifics here. Obviously there are some events in history that were particularly good or bad where it would be helpful to know how they started and stopped so that repeats of the bad things can be avoided and repeats of the good things can be courted; but the specific people, and places are of no consequence, they're just bones and dirt [respectively]; to quote the philosopher Quoheleth "The love, the hate and the envy of the dead have long since vanished; never again will they have any part to play in anything that happens under the sun.")

EDIT: actually, now that I think about it, I suppose the specifics could be useful to screenwriters and novelists
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 01:33:53 pm
I can see that you recognize the absurdity of the day.
I appreciate you laying it all out. It's romantic.

and you're invoking something higher than left and higher than right, so as to rise above that absurdity and spot some Deseret in the distance where we might all be free. It's worth considering!


Permit me, as a companion on this road, to reflect---


For nobody to believe in any higher power.

For what it's worth

the idea that you're part of something bigger is helpful, spiritually speaking

The idea that you're accountable to something other than yourself
that there is some ideal other than your belly and your pleasure

a lot of the world needs that

I was just listening to a James Comey interview in which he was talking about ethical leadership. He pointed out that if you look at history, the most ethical leaders have some standard, some ideal outside of themselves which keeps them honest. The worst leaders sees themselves as the highest ideal, it's all about the boss.

This goes back to the days of kings - for all the evil that the church did in medieval times, (and there was a LOT of it) one positive takeaway is that they bound the monarch to an ideal. They presented the idea of an ideal and goodly monarch, and while no king in history measured up to that ideal, it probably kept a lot of them from becoming complete fuck cannons.


Quote
For the old traditional and abrahamic values to disappear without anything taking their place.

God, what a nihilistic mess that would be

You throw out the good and the bad, and then how will people behave?

when left to their own devices, people naturally prefer to serve the lower god:
the ego, the belly
the primate urges
the lizard urges
the worm urges


Quote
For the end of sexual norms once and for all. For all cultural norms in the entire world to be eliminated and replaced with nothing.

in this new world, nobody will judge you for being a brony

or a rapist

Quote
For all distinctions between races, cultures, and ethnicities to be cast down and forgotten. For all gender expression to be eliminated due to all gender specificity of anything (clothing, bathrooms, sports teams, etc.) being eliminated. For the institution of marriage to be eliminated. For all cultures and peoples of the world to be merged into a single superculture.

you don't want norms
but you want to eliminate differences

you want individuality
but don't like how a lot of people have chosen to individuate

you don't want diveristy or difference
you prefer to imagine a harmonious monoculture





I think your vision is in self conflict.

You can't have a unifying culture with no norms. What is there to unify around?
You can't have maximum individuality while eliminating individual racial, sexuality, culture.

(culture, by the way, usually grows from the bottom up... somebody starts using slang, the people around them adopt it, fast forward, you've got a new language... people naturally separate and individuate, culture is a fractal and when you lean in real close, there is always a rough edge containing infinite complexity and diversity)


It reminds me of the libertarians that want freedom from government authority
and therefore support corporate tyranny

the bathwater and the baby fly into the wild blue yonder
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LMNO on April 20, 2018, 02:35:22 pm
 :barstool:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 20, 2018, 04:30:02 pm
:barstool:

*watches whole mess sail majestically overhead, goes back to preparing a nice, uncomplicated breakfast*
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Ziegejunge on April 20, 2018, 06:18:24 pm
Cram took the words right out of my mouth, and then elaborated on them and constructed them into a far more cogent presentation.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 20, 2018, 07:39:25 pm
Quote
For the end of sexual norms once and for all. For all cultural norms in the entire world to be eliminated and replaced with nothing.

in this new world, nobody will judge you for being a brony

or a rapist


Assaulting and drugging people and forcing people into involuntary servitude would still be frowned upon and illegal. Rapists are human garbage, but are ultimately the same type of human garbage as the rulers of the antebellum south, rather than a seperate category; The primary evil lies not in the fact that it's a sex thing but in the fact that people are being assaulted and forced to do things against their will.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 20, 2018, 07:47:52 pm
For nobody to believe in any higher power.

For what it's worth

the idea that you're part of something bigger is helpful, spiritually speaking

The idea that you're accountable to something other than yourself
that there is some ideal other than your belly and your pleasure

a lot of the world needs that

I was just listening to a James Comey interview in which he was talking about ethical leadership. He pointed out that if you look at history, the most ethical leaders have some standard, some ideal outside of themselves which keeps them honest. The worst leaders sees themselves as the highest ideal, it's all about the boss.

This goes back to the days of kings - for all the evil that the church did in medieval times, (and there was a LOT of it) one positive takeaway is that they bound the monarch to an ideal. They presented the idea of an ideal and goodly monarch, and while no king in history measured up to that ideal, it probably kept a lot of them from becoming complete fuck cannons.

That's an appeal to consequences
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LMNO on April 20, 2018, 08:11:49 pm
:drama1:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:05:38 pm
Assaulting and drugging people and forcing people into involuntary servitude would still be frowned upon and illegal. Rapists are human garbage, but are ultimately the same type of human garbage as the rulers of the antebellum south, rather than a seperate category; The primary evil lies not in the fact that it's a sex thing but in the fact that people are being assaulted and forced to do things against their will.

That's just the kind of outdated social norm defense that is gonna get you sent to the the reprogramming camp

There's no room in the Golden Sphere of Possibility for your BS 21st century values

get with the program--we're trying to uphold a monoculture here

That's an appeal to consequences

so's nuclear war, and yet....


Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 pm
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:30:41 pm
I'm reminded of that South Park episode where Cartman wakes up in the distant future

and all religions have been eradicated

and the world is now dominated by warring tribes of atheists



world is full of these misguided ghandis, like
"if we changed this ONE THING about the world, there would be peace and harmony and nobody would get hurt anymore"

"To get to that Utopia, to stop people from forming the wrong values, we have to rip them away from this thing they find meaningful."

"We have to build this new world hegemony consisting of this one kick-ass value system I came up with."


I've heard this song before, you know?

Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on April 20, 2018, 11:58:14 pm
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

They wouldn't, that's the point. They're most likely going to come up with comparably stupid new values
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 03:09:28 am
For nobody to believe in any higher power. For no religion in the entire world and all of history to be respected, whether new or old, whether western, eastern, african or other.  For the old traditional and abrahamic values to disappear without anything taking their place. For arbitrary rules of decorum to be eliminated. For the end of sexual norms once and for all. For all cultural norms in the entire world to be eliminated and replaced with nothing. For all distinctions between races, cultures, and ethnicities to be cast down and forgotten. For all gender expression to be eliminated due to all gender specificity of anything (clothing, bathrooms, sports teams, etc.) being eliminated. For the institution of marriage to be eliminated. For all cultures and peoples of the world to be merged into a single superculture.

Also socialized medicine and legal pot, mushrooms, and prostitution and reform of IP law and heavy punitive regulations on many industries

So what you want is a bunch of people who believe exactly what you believe, and nothing else.

Any ideas as to how to achieve that?
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 03:10:44 am

That's an appeal to consequences

So is everything.  Everywhere.  Ever.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 03:12:00 am
You can go ahead and disregard what I just said, on account of I didn't read the whole thread and Cram said it better.

CRAM YUO, DAMULOUS!   :argh!:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LuciferX on April 21, 2018, 07:15:15 am
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 08:31:33 am
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: axod on April 21, 2018, 11:16:12 am
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
I think he was trying to say Necronomicoin
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 23, 2018, 03:24:54 pm
Ivo Shandor, leader of the Cult of Gozer,

you've taken a good step--which is to be critical of the left/right divide and not get sucked into the tribe war

however, moving away from stupidity is not the same thing as moving towards intelligence

the reason the dichotomy is so powerful is that nobody, including you, has been able to express something that could actually transcend it.

The "everybody is stupid!" mentality doesn't pass the ideological sniff test. It's a negative response to negative and nothing more. You set a heading as if you were rowing towards a better world, but there's nothing in your boat but aversion. It's like "I don't like broccoli" presented as ideology.

You need to apply pressure to it. Through friction, it might be refined. When I applied the pressue to the weak points, you waved your hand. With that empty hand, grab Hume's Fork and start poking. It's not enough to dismiss what exists. It's not enough to say you want a world where people have different vaues. You have to imagine the transition between this world and the next one. And you have to explain why the world you're imagining is better for us.

I don't know how you propose to separate people from their traditions and identity. I'm not sure you've considered that basically everyone in history who has tried to accomplish this has been a total asshole. "People should stop identifing with their race" is a very white guy thing to say--people who have been persecuted for their race/ethnicity would call that "letting the racists win".

For my vote, the world you describe sounds like it would be much, much worse than the one we have now.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: trippinprincezz13 on April 23, 2018, 05:31:12 pm
B-b-but, rapists would be "frowned upon"! Problem solved!

(this bit of snark brought to you by the fact that Cram already addressed the issues in a well-thought out, succinct manner).
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 23, 2018, 11:14:17 pm
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point. In a world devoid of higher political powers enforcing a particular mode of behavior, where everyone is absolutely equal, if you fast-forward five minutes into the future, you'll end up with enormous state-level actors and oppression anyway. With no State in place to disrupt the formation of gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms, then you will have gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms. Because humans are assholes. We are not assholes because the government is tyrannical. We are not assholes because some have more than others. We are not assholes because of over-regulation or taxes that are too high or because of "religious indoctrination". We just are assholes, and the human way will always be the dipshit asshole way.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 23, 2018, 11:20:59 pm
:mittens:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2018, 12:58:19 am
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point.

Newsfeed!
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Pergamos on April 27, 2018, 05:35:53 am
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

He not only didn't want them to develop better ones, he didn't want ANYTHING to replace them.  No values whatsoever.  No diversity of values, as no diversity of culture, a complete absence of both. 
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on April 27, 2018, 01:50:22 pm
I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

But then I remember, this isn't, like, a well thought-out plan. It's just disgust coupled with ++smug self certainty.



I have never read a revolutionary manifesto that doesn't come off like the Underpants Gnomes plan...


Step 1: Revolution
Step 2:
Step 3: All You Can Eat Woop Woop Utopia Freedom Buffet

Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cain on April 28, 2018, 11:07:51 am
Breivik's manifesto is more like

Step 1: First, we kill all the (((Cultural Marxists)))
Step 2: Thousand page digression into the history of Islam and (((Cultural Marxism))) as presented by random internet lunatics
Step 3: Wank yourself raw into a Cultural Christian Utopia.

Its basically the same thing, but the extra and completely unnecessary extra thousand pages are notable.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on May 07, 2018, 09:46:31 pm
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

"I refuse to be defined by the extremes of my side while I define the other side by their extremes."
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 10, 2018, 01:17:01 pm
I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

I'm still trying to work the specifics of that out. My current thought is maybe to give everyone a shitload of benzo and mood stabilizers
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LMNO on May 10, 2018, 03:28:28 pm
I think I've heard this one before. (https://www.huxley.net/bnw/)
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 10, 2018, 05:54:46 pm
Brave New World has similarities but it's problems are unrelated to these similarities, and in many ways stem from the places where it isn't similar. They seem to have stagnated under the rule of a religion that worships ancient 19th century industrialists, they seem to have gone out of their way to perpetuate injustices that their technology and culture should have solved (in particular they still have a rigid caste system despite strict population control and the end of biological families, which essentially means that they're practicing population control to no reason other than to do it; exactly the sort of practice I seek to get rid of; they have too many people for everyone to be comfortable intentionally and this means that someone somewhere has given a damn about something that they shouldn't have), and related to the previous point they practice a sort of eugenics (and in places, reverse-eugenics) which is also indicative of people giving a damn in places and situations where they shouldn't
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on May 12, 2018, 06:15:48 pm
Quote
For all distinctions between races, cultures, and ethnicities to be cast down and forgotten. For all gender expression to be eliminated due to all gender specificity of anything (clothing, bathrooms, sports teams, etc.) being eliminated. For the institution of marriage to be eliminated. For all cultures and peoples of the world to be merged into a single superculture.

you don't want norms
but you want to eliminate differences

you want individuality
but don't like how a lot of people have chosen to individuate

you don't want diveristy or difference
you prefer to imagine a harmonious monoculture





I think your vision is in self conflict.

You can't have a unifying culture with no norms. What is there to unify around?
You can't have maximum individuality while eliminating individual racial, sexuality, culture.

(culture, by the way, usually grows from the bottom up... somebody starts using slang, the people around them adopt it, fast forward, you've got a new language... people naturally separate and individuate, culture is a fractal and when you lean in real close, there is always a rough edge containing infinite complexity and diversity)


It reminds me of the libertarians that want freedom from government authority
and therefore support corporate tyranny

the bathwater and the baby fly into the wild blue yonder

First: This post rules.

Second: "I'm above it all" is the wankiest and most worthless response to ideological conflict.
Because unless you've got a spaceship, you're not above it all. You're in this mess with us.

The emperor may have no clothes, but neither do you, peasant.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on May 12, 2018, 07:09:53 pm
FWIW, I think casting off or disregarding all factors that unify people and trying to make decisions based on pure individualism is not casting off ideology or rising above it.

An ideology is, to borrow a definition I learned from PhilosophyTube ("What Was Liberalism" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlLgvSduugI&list=PLvoAL-KSZ32e9ziASGC8ZWwrvV4fEXoRj)), simply a framework that defines two main things:

1) What facts are relevant
2) Who are the acceptable targets of violence

Even the most nihilistic, norm-rejecting stance has SOME kind of answer to these questions, and therefore has an ideology.

I'ma go with one that I think sucks the least and has the least separation from testable, empirical experience. Sometimes I'll fuck that up. But I'm pretty much over the "both sides are bad lol" mode of coping with bullshit.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 01, 2018, 02:02:29 am
I think I've heard this one before. (https://www.huxley.net/bnw/)

I would literally give my left arm to live in a society with the same attitudes towards drugs, family, and casual sex as the one in Brave New World. The problems with the society in Brave New World were that they had a rigid caste system that oppressed the poor and the fact that they worshipped Henry Ford as some kind of weird deity.
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 01, 2018, 02:20:51 am
I think I've heard this one before. (https://www.huxley.net/bnw/)

I would literally give my left arm to live in a society with the same attitudes towards drugs, family, and casual sex as the one in Brave New World. The problems with the society in Brave New World were that they had a rigid caste system that oppressed the poor and the fact that they worshipped Henry Ford as some kind of weird deity.

 :um:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: LMNO on June 01, 2018, 12:55:22 pm
 :lulz:


PDS, America already exists.

Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Cramulus on June 01, 2018, 02:18:11 pm
weren't the drugs and state-sponsored value systems in Brave New World just an advanced form of factory production?


like saying, I'm cool with the government controlling every aspect of life down to people's personal values as long as it's not based on money



Line-assembly of humans is good, actually - as long as those humans are nice
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 01, 2018, 04:01:56 pm
:lulz:


PDS, America already exists.

:lulz:
Title: Re: The left and the right
Post by: bpseudopod on June 01, 2018, 04:34:17 pm
Your argument's kind of fucked if it hinges on the notion that you can do Brave New World, but better.