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Messages - P3nT4gR4m

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6301
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 06:43:27 pm »
I disagree with the claim that this board swinging towards the militant atheist side. I think it was actually a bit more hardlined-materialist  when I joined. I think the tone has gotten more permissive since then. I recall wanting to learn more about Kaballah, and mangrove sending me a lot of info via PM which he didn't want to post on the board. He feared he'd have to deal with justifying everything to everyone, and thereby becoming the personal proxy for any vitriol towards Kaballah. Come to think of it, I've had a number of good religious discussions via PM to avoid the cacophony of the board at large.



Which, in a way, is a good thing.

I mean, if there was something I cared about, and wanted to discuss in a serious, personal way, I'm not sure I would post it on any public forum, much less PD.com.  I would find like-minded people and PM, email, or personal chat.  It's too easy to have a conversation derailed.

Specialist boards are better for specialist interests anyroad. I don't talk much about gran turismo games here, got I got gt planet for that shit. This board is harder to nail down but there is a sorta implicit list of shit that doesn't belong here. You want to test the waters? Fine, post about it and see if it gets you flamed  :lulz:

6302
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 06:40:17 pm »
If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

I agree. Any argument about 'faith' will boil down to "I believe it because I want to". And in the end, that is bullshit (but bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that is beautiful).

However, being able to discuss our 'experiences' in whatever metaphor most usefully describes the experience is not the same thing. So if you say to me, "I have faith in the Native Gods, because some spag in a Teepee told me to." then I would probably have little respect for that (seems like a "My Preacher said" sort of defense. If however, you talked about your personal spiritual experiences, as experienced by you within your neurological system... then I would probably have a great deal of respect for you AND would be very interested in your perception of experience.



THIS!

I made a post years ago about meeting god (the actual guy) on a mushroom trip and nobody flamed me for it. The real put-downs on this board are more levelled at followers vs freethinkers and I think that's something we're very close to consensus on.

6303
Nothing but bloody cam and ts files out there. I'm dying to see this but not desperate enough to put up with shitty local cinema quality.  :argh!:

6304
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 06:26:58 pm »
If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

You can boil any argument down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid". It's the shit that gets boiled off that appeals to me. That's where the potential lulz reside. "Nuh-uh, that's stupid... because ... insert potd here"

6305
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 06:11:45 pm »
I think the other reason that it isn't discussed here much is because of the freedom people have here to post what they want.  I know that sounds like a paradox, but hear me out.

Let's say a person here posts their belief in the Cosmic Turtle, and let's say that there are 5 other people who agree, and they start a thread discussing the Great Carapace, or whatever.

But then, one or two people counter with, "What is this horseshit!?"

The Turtlites are free to post what they will, and so are the doubters.  No one's going to stop them.

But now, they have to defend their positions, which (as noted above) are indefensible, almost by definition.  Short of igoring the doubters completely, any further discussion becomes impossible; and even then, they'll have to skip over posts filled with mockery by the two doubters.

See what I mean?

All I'm saying is that when the "doubters", (I would not call them that, because they're not doubting anything... they're opposing it) do that, they're proselytizing just as much as when an evangelist christian pops into a conversation about evolution to try to "save" the unbelievers. Most people here would probably not very much enjoy posting on a board that was dominated by Creationists. I think that the overall tone of the board is shifting toward aggressive Atheism, and while the aggressive Atheists will probably be happy if that reduces participation by non-Atheists, I also think it will lead to the same sort of stultifying homogeneity over on Venganza, and a lot of interesting voices and perspectives could be... and, I think, are already being... lost.

And, I mean, if the end result is that POEE or EB&G gets all of the religious traffic, I guess that's just the way it goes. But the thing is, I don't really want to spend all my online time around a bunch of fucking fairy-tale worshippers, either. I like it here. I like the Atheists. I like the way they fucking rip shit apart and make fun of it. Yep. Contradictory? I don't think so. I just think it would be a damn shame if this board became totally dominated by the Atheist perspective. I like a nice balance. I would be the first to tear into some fuckhead who came in here trying to convert the Atheist contingent, and it would be nice if there was a little reciprocity.

It would be SWELL if the inevitable immediate response when someone mentions ritual or spirituality wasn't "WTF THAT SHIT IS ST00PID IT'S FOR SUPERSTITIOUS DUMBASSES WHO BELIEVE IN THE TOOF FAERIE AND NEED A CRUTCH STFU MORON!"

The fervent atheist is as much a follower of blind faith as the religious person he will rail against.

When I was doing the Baby Jesus Show I did a bit of networking with the rational objecter crowd in order to gain a bit of exposure for my films and it really brought this home to me. These guys are every bit as much "fundamentalists" as the fucking Taliban, srsly.

I wouldn't lump this board in that category. I think the folks round here are pretty much the same as myself - we mock, mercilessly, primarily for the mockery itself. It doesn't matter what subject you care to make a post about, if I can see and angle then I'll mock it, for the glory of the lulz. Same goes for anyone else on this board and I expect to be treated the same way. If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

6306
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 05:47:42 pm »
I do agree that there's really very little point in discussing faith or religion with people who don't have it, because... well, it can't be explained. It doesn't make sense. It's the thing that I call unliteral truth. Either someone gets it or they don't, and I have no place in that process.

Even further, they need to have the same kind of faith; the same unprovable conclusions.

Thats what I was getting at when I said "what is faith"

Like I'd go out on a limb here and say I totally believe in god. But what I mean by "god" has absolutely no relation to what probably most of the people in the world would mean by it. So I don't say it very often. It's much more simple and actually much more honest to tell such people I don't believe in god.

6307
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 05:43:43 pm »
Faith is believing without reason. Religion is how you organize, implement or ornament that faith.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion, in fact I think it's generally pretty evil for the reasons you stated.

The "faith is a crutch" line is a pretty standard one... do you regard it as any more of a crutch than language, art, or technology?

Not really. But I do think it would be a good thing if more people didn't seem to feel the need to rely on it. More so with faith than language, art or technology.

6308
Or Kill Me / Re: The Girl with a Girl's Tender Heart
« on: March 09, 2009, 05:38:23 pm »
There's a real difference between being a sexually mature biological male and being a "real man"

Probably the same with women too

6309
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 05:33:18 pm »
Putting aside "religion" which is a whole nother can of worms, the term "faith" is another one that is just too broad and open to personal interpretation that you can't really tar everyone with the same brush. As a general rule I will mercilessly mock people who profess to having "faith" in a god-based scenario but there are exceptions.

If you'd used your first post on this board to say "Hi I'm Nigel and I have faith in the risen christ or the mercy of allah or whatever" then I'd have jumped on your case for the lulz. But I know you better than that now so whatever it is you mean by "faith" I'm pretty confident it isn't the same thing a "faithfool" would mean by it. You just don't strike me as the kind of person who would jump off a cliff cos the guy in the big hat told them they should.

So what the hell is "faith"? I'm not stupid enough to completely discount the possibility of life after death or reincarnation or whatever, in fact I remain quietly optimistic that maybe there is and I'll die and then pop up in some kind of afterlife or whatever. It's a much more comfortable scenario to look forward to. On the other hand there's a vast gulf of difference between hoping for the best and believing it with all my heart and soul - IMO it's just way too unlikely for me to have that kind of faith in. In all probability when my brain dies so will I.

The reason I'm down on that kind of faith is because once you have it you become subject to manipulation by the self appointed governors of your chosen deity and that's shaky territory in my view. That's the real lemming-scenario and, as far as I'm concerned, the cons outweigh the pros being that the pros seem to be largely centred around individuals feeling a bit less scared of the grim reaper and the cons, especially when two or more religious ideologies collide, can be strikingly messy.

At best faith is a crutch - a little shot of psychological morphine. At worst its an excuse to perpetrate all manner of horrors.

6310
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 03:47:48 pm »
Religion. Faith. These are two words that annoy me.

Yes, it's possible to use one or both of these, in moderation, and still remain a cool, objective, self-aware, critical thinker.
 

you mean there are words things that don't annoy you?
 :lol:

titties and beer and ... yeah, that's about it.

6311
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Losing Their Religion?
« on: March 09, 2009, 03:46:00 pm »
It seems to me that this may be a pattern. Certainly some societies existed where religion was a minor or inconsequential aspect of society, The city states in Italy, particularly Venice basically kicked the Church out and focused instead on money, trade and having a good time. Well, until the plague showed up... then they went running back into the arms of the Church who could blame it on TEH EVILDOERS!

The trend may be something more permanent, it would be nice to see religion no longer control people, but perhaps simply be an added spice some people add to their lives. Unfortunately, I think that as soon as something very scary happens, I think people may find themselves looking for a Sky Daddy to save them. I hope not, but we're talking about a bunch of monkeys with serious hair loss problems.

THIS!

I too would like to think people are strong enough to face reality without superstitious fairy stories.

But I don't.

6312
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Losing Their Religion?
« on: March 09, 2009, 03:38:44 pm »
Religion isn't shrinking, it's just changing into forms we don't recognise. The cult of celebrity is fucking huge right now. It offers instant, here and now salvation by way of elevation to it's already fucking huge pantheon.


6313
Or Kill Me / Re: Plus, I Got Religion
« on: March 09, 2009, 03:30:32 pm »
Religion. Faith. These are two words that annoy me.

Yes, it's possible to use one or both of these, in moderation, and still remain a cool, objective, self-aware, critical thinker.

But it gets a lot less likely.

Religion and Faith are like crack cocaine and meth. It might be possible to use a little of these substances to no harmful effect but the fact is, a lot of people end up strung out on them, complete fucking mushbrains and, given that there are no real tangible benefits, I don't, personally, see the point of taking the risk.

Why fuck around with something as potentially brain damaging as religion? What exactly is the benefit that makes you think the risk is justified? What's so great about occasionally believing in the tooth fairy?

Don't bother answering that. I'm really not that interested. Just trying to clarify my position - that's what I wonder about.

6314
If this recession is the real deal then nobody has to worry about a police state. They won't be able to afford it. Best advice is find the cash and buy up a couple of police departments of your own. These will be available at serious knock down prices, not the overinflated rates only the mafia could previously afford. Total immunity in even a single small region will create untold opportunities but make sure you seal it down tight. Competition will have to be executed as soon as they start sniffing around.

6315
Or Kill Me / Re: Reverse Rorscach
« on: March 06, 2009, 06:47:05 pm »
read the watchmen. Its worth your time

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797

now you could get all your watchmen needs in a Saturday morning cartoon

That was fucking superb!  :lulz:

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