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Messages - Mangrove

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Remember good old fashioned torture? (You know, before it got all politically correct)

Remember the time before the War On Drugs, when heroin was less available, more expensive and of lower purity?

Remember Sundown towns?

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Dear LMNO
« on: April 14, 2014, 03:59:06 pm »
It sounds like he's autotuned his voice....and yet it's still completely out of tune. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!???  :?

And this:

(apologies if it's a repost...)

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Icons of Hate
« on: April 08, 2014, 05:40:01 pm »
Mangrove, even if you're right, NEVER GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD POLEMIC.

Anyway, I still hate Chick Corea with the passion of a thousand suns.


How the hell did Herbie Hancock turn out so fucking cool if he started in Jazz?

He's just one groovy motherfucker.

I have in laws in Maine.

My wife's niece was visiting from Maine with her boyfriend. He explained that his buddy wanted to go to Cabela's to check out a gun which, he had no interest in but figured it was something to do.

So, the friend is talking guns with the Cabela's guy and for yuks says "See him over there...he's a liberal!"

The Cabela's guy calls him over and then reams him out in public, in all seriousness without a trace of irony, tongue in cheek nor indeed any kind of awareness..


Watch out Mainers, Assad has his eyes on you.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Icons of Hate
« on: April 08, 2014, 03:44:39 pm »
Chick Corea.

This man made it his life's work to ruin three, I repeat, three kinds of music-- and he succeeded.

This is the guy that decided it would be a great idea to graft jazz, rock and roll, and latin american music together in a hideous, Frankenstonian Cerebus of a genre called "Jazz Fusion". 

So awful was his power that he was able to convice Miles Davis that this was a good idea.  Granted, Miles was on a lot of heroin at the time, but still...

What's worse is that this is directly responsible for the abject horror we know as "soft jazz".  And because of that, RWHN.

I want to go back in time and crush this man's fingers with a 10-pound hammer.

I'm a little uncertain about your chronology

During the 1960s, the middle aged Miles Davis was facing a potential career crisis. Jazz was beginning it's decline in popularity, Miles wanted to be 'cutting edge' but did not want to join in with the 'New Thing' (aka Free or Avant Garde jazz). So, he opted initially for a middle ground by bringing in a bunch of younger players (Hancock, Shorter, Carter & Williams) who could play all the mainstream jazz material (blues, ballads & standard songs) but had an ear to the kinds of things going on with Ornette Coleman, Coltrane quartet etc. (Snarky side note is that Wynton Marsalis states that at this point, Miles had peaked technically and basically wasn't up to the music that his younger cohorts were capable of playing)

Having gone as far with that as he could, Miles was looking for something new, especially if it carried a larger paycheck. He really liked James Brown, Sly Stone and Jimi Hendrix...(note that he liked Jimi but not the rest of the Experience who he thought were terrible.) Add that to a massive amount of cocaine, the fact that music companies were giving him free electric pianos and that Miles was fucking younger women who were into rock & R&B and HEY PRESTO....FUSION was born. It's when Miles' hair started to recede and he gave up wearing Brooks Brothers suits in favor of bell bottoms, massive sunglasses and stuff with tassels. 

Everyone who had a career in 'fusion' went through Miles' band first:

Herbie Hancock ---> Headhunters
Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter ---> Weather Report
Chic Corea ---> Return To Forever
John McLaughlin ---> Mahavishnu Orchestra
Tony Williams ---> Lifetime
George Benson ---> gave up straight jazz in favor of making pop & soul records.

All of these people had established careers playing acoustic jazz, then they played with Miles in the 60s/70s following the gradual dissolution of the 2nd quintet. After their time in Miles' band they all went and made fusion records of their own. Miles made his pianists play the Fender Rhodes. People like Hancock actually liked technology so he rolled with it. Keith Jarrett on the other hand thought it was godawful, hated playing it and the music he did with Miles, but he just wanted to be around him. Unlike the others, he did not make a fusion record but went back to his regular piano and that weird, squeaky, scat singing noise that he makes when he plays.

So, I contend that Mr Corea did not invent fusion. Miles Davis having a mid-life crisis created fusion.

I don't know who to blame for 'smooth jazz' but I don't think that can be laid at Mr Corea's door. What he does need a bitch slapping for however, is his insistence that his being a big old Scientologist has negatively impacted his opportunities as a performer. Uhh....Hollywood much?

Should you get that time travel thing working, to prevent the existence of fusion, you'd have to check Miles into rehab, get him to date women his own age and explain that he can't ask Columbia records for huge salary raises just because he wants them.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: I Write Like....
« on: March 30, 2014, 02:52:38 pm »
David Foster Wallace

I am a small business....just like George W Bush!

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: RIP Lou Reed
« on: October 28, 2013, 06:33:57 pm »

First Lou Reed I heard was 'Venus In Furs' cranked up loud in my friend's living room circa 1992.

Great stuff.

Principia Discussion / Re: Give us your best philosophy joke
« on: October 10, 2013, 08:08:25 pm »


(for instance, Moses didn't cross the Red Sea, it was the Reed Sea near the Nile Delta, which could have easily flooded on it's own natural power.)

There's historical evidence of Moses? Or do you mean that another translation said "Reed sea"?

Are Red and Reed as easily confusable in Arameic?

thanks suu! always interesting

Don't see why not. People keep talking about a 'camel' going through the eye of an needle, when the original, more likely version is 'rope'. Camel & rope in Hebrew both equate to Gimel.

And for the 666 thing, it's possible that the person who wrote the original may have actually rendered it 616. The problem comes from how Nerun Kaisar is rendered into Hebrew Gematria. There's a possibility that the 'number of the beast' is not 666.

Yet more examples of the 99.9% Bible fail.

So yeah, as far as I am aware, the Jews were probably not enslaved in Egypt, they didn't build the pyramids and it wasn't during the reign of Rameses II.

Aneristic Illusions / Re: Hauling Fascists Around By The Ankles
« on: September 27, 2013, 02:22:00 pm »

Did we just fall foul of a sociological experiment? We confirmed his theories and yet he didn't have the decency to explain what they were. 

I feel cheated.

Aneristic Illusions / Re: Hauling Fascists Around By The Ankles
« on: September 24, 2013, 03:03:21 pm »
Oh well. Doesn't look like I'll get my questions answered. At least I got some coffee & apple pie for my efforts to 'communicate'.

Seems that his 'I'm completely right wing and yet not a Nazi or Facist' stance appears to come from Julius Evola, who said well, pretty much the same thing....

P.S. Galdrux are two letters from the so called 'Enochian' alphabet of Dr John Dee. Gal is 'd' and Drux is 'n'. What significance does D & N have to these people?  I neither know nor care.

Aneristic Illusions / Re: Hauling Fascists Around By The Ankles
« on: September 23, 2013, 02:26:11 am »
You missed abolition. That's in there.

Shit! And its such a doozy too. I was going to ask if he wanted slavery reinstated and, if so, which people does he think are suitable candidates for a life of servitude.

Sorry about that, everyone. Mrs Mang distracted me mid post with coffee and home made apple pie.


Aneristic Illusions / Re: Hauling Fascists Around By The Ankles
« on: September 23, 2013, 12:22:37 am »
I'll bite...


Thank you for providing your handy-dandy glossary. I am hoping it will aid this discussion.

Just to clarify my understanding of your position, I would be grateful if you could answer some questions which I will get to in a minute. Before that though, I would like to begin with this 'Cathedral' notion.

For anyone who didn't click the glossary link, here's the definition:

The Cathedral — The self-organizing consensus of Progressives and Progressive ideology represented by the universities, the media, and the civil service. A term coined by blogger Mencius Moldbug. The Cathedral has no central administrator, but represents a consensus acting as a coherent group that condemns other ideologies as evil. Community writers have enumerated the platform of Progressivism as women’s suffrage, prohibition, abolition, federal income tax, democratic election of senators, labor laws, desegregation, popularization of drugs, destruction of traditional sexual norms, ethnic studies courses in colleges, decolonization, and gay marriage. A defining feature of Progressivism is that “you believe that morality has been essentially solved, and all that’s left is to work out the details.” Reactionaries see Republicans as Progressives, just lagging 10-20 years behind Democrats in their adoption of Progressive norms.

Ok good. So the 'progessives' who comprise 'the Cathedral' have, apparently a platform that is in favor of 'women's suffrage, prohibition, abolition, federal income tax, democratic election of senators, labor laws, desegregation, popularization of drugs, destruction of traditional sexual norms, ethnic studies courses in colleges, decolonization and gay marriage.'

Let's begin with this little list. I understand that you didn't write this list yourself, but you did ask us to look at it because it is, presumably, representative of your world view.

Women's suffrage.

1) Are you personally suggesting that women shouldn't vote? If yes, do you express this opinion to your mother? (or any other significant female person in your life?). If so, with what degree of success have you convinced them to refrain from active participation in the political process?


I'm assuming here (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that this refers to prohibition of drugs? That being the case, do you believe that all drugs should be legal? If this is about some other type of prohibition, please elaborate.

Federal income tax

Have you personally paid for absolutely everything in your life and never once utilized any benefit, privilege or facility that is funded by federal taxes?

Democratic election of senators

I have to admit, I'm a little confused here. Is the issue just about women electing senators or is a broader issue of anyone electing senators?

Labor Laws

I don't know what you do for work. I'll tell you what I do. I'm self-employed and work in the health care field. I split my time between my own business as a bodyworker and I do administrative work for a local chiropractor. Because of labor laws, both myself and the doctor have to have licenses under the department of health. It shows that we've received training to execute our respective jobs safely on the public. Is that problematic for you? Similarly, labor laws stop kids being exploited in sweat shops, people being harassed, unfairly dismissed etc. Let's pretend that in a post-Cathedral world, your new boss has decided that on the basis of your gender/skin/color/belief system etc that you are entirely unfit for promotion, even though you are clearly good at your job. But wait, there's an exception! If you agree to fuck your new boss in the supply cupboard, you might be in for a shot at a pay rise. Is it fair for me to assume that you'd be completely cool and ok with this scenario?


Are you proposing that America returns to segregation? If so, am I correct in assuming that your idea of segregation entails white people get all the good stuff and all non-whites getting all the crappy stuff? In times to come, being of white, Western European extraction will be a minority feature. Where would you like the new Latino & Asian majorities to put you exactly? Back of the bus? A reservation somewhere? Or will you secretly hope they don't notice you?

Destruction of traditional sexual norms

Please explain what you think constitute 'traditional sexual norms.'

Ethnic study courses in colleges

Well, last I looked, taking such classes are optional and not mandatory. Simple answer. Don't take that class.


I was born in a commonwealth country (Canada) and then spent much of my life in the United Kingdom which, back in the day, was at the center of a sizeable empire that included When a bunch of angry 21st century red coats show up, are you going to welcome them?

Gay marriage

Odd thing to be worried about. If you're not gay, then you can't get gay married. If you are gay, you  don't have to get married.

Over to you, sir if you care to indulge me. Please note, that I've written in what I believe to be fairly clear, jargon-free English. If you want people to listen to you, take you seriously and engage in some sort of discussion, then may I politely recommend that you do likewise? Otherwise it just looks like this:

Due to the ultra-magnetic retromingent solar-phallic industrial complex, the concomitant nexus of qlipphotic forces have placed us at a peculiar juncture within the current socio-histrionic milieu. Subsequently, the crypto-facist substratum is de-equilibriated in favor of a greater hegemony.

My years at have taught me that the posters here have large vocabularies. It's neither big nor clever when used as a substitute for substance.



The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Trigger warning: Drugs
« on: September 20, 2013, 09:02:14 pm »
I think that Pergamos is essentially saying that he doesn't think that secondary harm that results from regular and frequent heroin use should be considered harm from heroin. I disagree, because by that logic we can also say that HIV is harmless because nobody gets sick from HIV, they get sick from secondary infections made possible by their HIV-compromised immune systems. Secondary physical harm is still physical harm, particularly when you're looking at an addiction rate of about 23% of all users.

No, I am saying that the graph is not well made because it is putting the harm due to addiction on a different axis and then putting that on the same graph.  It's like making a graph that ranks cars on fuel consumption and exhaust produced.  Harm from addiction is going to eclipse physical harm from the drug itself unless the drug itself is insanely physically harmful (like, say, krokodil)

Perhaps. I think the Wiki article with Nutt's research has a graph in which 'harm to user' and 'harm to others' is graphed differently rather than the polka dot one which seems to be the contentious one.  Don't know if that helps or not.

When I was responding earlier, I had written a longer post, but deleted much of it and had the leave the office to get home for my dog. Anyways...

Here's my thoughts about 'clean heroin'. It was synthesized back in the 1930s (Bayer?) and it's how we ended up with Oxycontin & Oxycodone and their ilk. The idea was to make a more stable, controllable substance than heroin. The original target audience however, were the terminally ill, so worrying about addiction wasn't the issue. The issue was not spending your last days on earth in screeching agony. All is well & good.

What we've seen over the last few years is that physicians are increasingly willing to prescribe powerful opiates for conditions that don't especially require it. Back in the day your doctor would've said "Take advil" or "get an ice pack". More recently, we've seen a great expansion in the kinds of things that people get strong pain meds for. My wife had a tooth pulled a few years ago. The dentist was very insistent that she take a script for Vicodin which she really didn't want or need. She managed just fine with OTC stuff.

A friend of one of the kids went to the emergency room with rib pain that turned out to be pulled muscles. He walked away with a script for Percocet! That's a long way off from dying of bone cancer, but what the hey. Have some opiates!

Another friend of my wife's got hooked on Oxy following a surgery. He went to his doctor and said "You know...I think I like these things too much and I'm worried that I'm dependent on them". His doctor said "'re fine" and ignored him. Fortunately, our friend had the foresight to ignore his doctor in turn and get into a Suboxone program and get cleaned up which, thankfully he's done. Less fortunately are the two alcoholics we know who, despite being clean for 20+ relapsed (and epically so) because they received legal, prescription, opiates from Doctors.

I work at an acupuncture clinic and at a chiropractic office. As such, I get to see the medications people take and sometimes, my eyes sproing out of my head in disbelief that (a) people are on so much medication and (b) how they are able to so much as walk, let along have any kind of life at all. Crazy stuff.

So here's the thing. Legal, clean, controlled dosage 'heroin' already exists. It's Oxycontin (or similar). And lots and lots of doctors are merrily giving this to people for ailments that in the past, they never would have. As it turns out, I've seen first hand that in spite of the apparent 'cleanliness' and 'legality', it produces great amounts of harm and suffering.

[My son starting using heroin after using pills. He didn't have them legally, but his story is typical. You take a few pills every now and then and end up feeling far better than anyone should under normal circumstances. Trouble is, it's not cheap because you're paying a dollar per milligram on the street. 20mg of Oxy is $20. However, some enterprising entrepreneur will point out that $20 is 4-5 bags of heroin. Ahh, the freemarket at work!]

Thing is, even people who get legal opiates from real doctors may find themselves wanting a lot more than they're supposed to have. Then what? If their doctor is slack, they get to be doped out zombies for the rest of their days. If their doctor says 'nuh uh' and cuts them off, what are they going to do? They will do/say/think of ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY anything and everything they can to avoid getting junk sick. Our medical system doesn't want to clean up the messes it creates (cf anti-biotics). Unless the doctors are as interested in addiction treatment as they are in prescribing opiates, all we're doing is churning out junkies on an industrial scale.



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