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Topics - Dildo Argentino

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Apple Talk / A Song For Roger
« on: September 26, 2012, 05:40:57 am »
I've googled PD for it, apparently it has not been mentioned. Enjoy.

Apple Talk / Wage Slavery
« on: September 25, 2012, 05:36:58 pm »
Okay, I guess I just don't see the sense of redefining "prostitution" to cover essentially what is covered by "wage labor", since some highly impressive minds have already done a pretty good job of illustrating how awful the latter is (at least as far back as Marx), all while the former adds on a couple special layers of awful that should be differentiated from the normal kind of awful.

Okay, I can see how I was sliding towards that comparison (wage slavery in general versus wage slavery in the sex industry), and indeed, such a redefinition would be pointless, you are absolutely right.

However, firstly: I think most people don't work with a totally alienated attitude. They may think that they would stop doing what they do if they won the lottery (though not everyone does), but they do attach some importance to their work in addition to its financial reward. I'm sure many people are even right about this, while others are wrong about it, but refuse to face the cognitive dissonance.

And there is also something more interesting going on there, I think. First of all, let me state for the record that all in all I am happy with my situation, though I've been wishing to change it in the near to medium future for longer than I care to remember (I've painted myself into a difficult corner), and I am certainly not exploited. Not by others, and not (any longer) by me. Still, I believe transfer of the term 'prostitution' from doing sex for money to the kind of work I do has some justification over and above my opinions about the debiliating effects of wage slavery/alienated labour.

The kind of free-lance competence-rental business that I run and also serve as the sole asset of (okay, I also need computer and internet to work), which happens to be translating diverse shit I am not interested in at all (again, there is a marginal benefit of knowing quite a lot but really not that much about a very diverse set of fields, but I tend to acquire that when I'm not working, anyway, only the set of fields is much more to my liking), but which could also be free-lance copywriting, free-lance commercial graphic art, free-lance performing art etc., has a number of other qualities that make it similar to work in the sex industry:

1. Lack of a reliable time-table. I read on this board about enjoying Saturday nights: well I enjoy my Saturday nights as much as the next fool along, but more often then not I don't actually know when my next Saturday night is going to happen: it can be tomorrow, or it can be next Tuesday morning, depending on the calls I get and the jobs I accept from punters. On average, I get one or two Saturday nights per week, possibly even slightly more. But sometimes I don't get any for 3 or 4 weeks, and sometimes my life becomes devoid of paid work for similar periods, which begins to hurt after a week or two. The whole thing has far from trivial lifestyle effects, and I know people who have become quite dysfunctional over failing to handle that.

2. The temptation of self-exploitation. "If I can do 3 shoots a week, why can't I do 5 and treat myself to something really nice with all that cash" - this could be a mid-career thought in the head of our poor porn princess. "If I can translate a hundred thousand characters in the next 78 hours, then surely I can translate thirty thousand more, the guy's offering triple money, besides, if I do him now, he is likely to come back for more" - is the sort of idea I need to deal with on a regular basis. It is a hard decision to make when winter is coming, we have a gas boiler driving the central heating and the price of gas is up.

3. The danger of a pretence of delayed gratification masking serious (or not so serious, but still) damage to self, to health, to social relationships: "this guy is asking me to do something pretty gross, but if I can keep this up for another month, I'll have enough to take a six-month break somewhere really nice to invent the rest of my life..." - or: "my wife's stressed out, I've not had time to pick up a guitar for weeks, I don't remember the last time I had anything like a conversation with any of the kids, my friends don't call anymore, but I am on a roll, if I have the discipline to do consistent work 10 hours a day for the next three weeks, I'll get a packet that will buy me some leisure to catch up with all those things... now that I have some leisure, I'm so fucking tired I can only work off my sleep deficit and laze about for a week or two, by which time it transpires that more money is needed and there's a decent job being offered". Something like that was part of the reason the mother of my three boys left me. I'm sure I don't wish I could have been be a sex-slave instead, but it did traumatise lives and was horrifically painful. I've never been a self-harmer, but on two occasions I dug sizable chunks out of my knee with my nails. My fifteen-year-old son told me a few days ago that he is finally coming out of denial and is beginning to accept that he's been depressed for the last four years, since the divorce and has only been getting better over the last year. (Sorry to be such an attention whore, I must stop that.)

And I'd wager that in any culture on earth, there's a basic difference between sex and other stuff, which you can notice with the next thought experiment: would you feel very weird about doing X for a friend in need, assuming you have the time and energy to do it and neither dearly love nor strongly dislike said friend? Substitute X with sex to their liking on the one hand, or any other activity (translation, writing, lifting furniture, etc.)  on the other.
While cultural hang-ups regarding sex probably make the difference bigger than it has to be, I'm willing to bet there's a difference, universally, in every human culture that ever existed.

Okay, the thought-experiment is a nice touch and I fully agree. But I think the "special status of sex" is extremely varied across cultures and across individuals. And the hang-ups do cause most of the demand for the sex-industry, I think.

Also, I have known some people who, while proceeding more carefully than when helping someone to move house, would actually proceed with sex in place of 'X'. Are they Bad PeopleTM? I don't think so. What can we say about the privileged status of sex in the life of hairless apes? A great deal, I am sure. Other thread?

Yes, and the fact that people are choosing to explore, in-depth, whether there aren't relevant differences between translation services and porn (there are, obviously) rather than laying out a clear and concise argument about what qualities make porn exploitative to the point that there is moral obligation on the part of the consumer/viewer to not support it, speaks volumes.

That's like a Snide CommentTM, right? But actually, the compare-and-contrast job I am trying to do here is, in my irritatingly divergent and roundabout manner, an attempt at figuring out what gives the sex industry it's (you have to admit, I think, do you?) very particular flavour of nasty. I think some of the ingredients are sex-related, but others are not, and are shared by some (but not all) other types of work. brings up an important question about how porn stacks up, exploitation-wise, relative to other common options. Presumably, people working in porn know that there are dish-washing jobs, dependency situations where you can get taken out or help paying bills in exchange for sex, etc. and they chose porn. What do they do, if we imagine your porn is limited to X Discordian approved levels of exploitation, when these jobs don't exist? Dish-washing? If so, why don't they choose dish-washing now? Could it be they see porn as a better option? And when we think about that for a moment, doesn't a seem that a lot of this discussion is basically a soft form of paternalism. Hey kid, you're not smart enough to know what's best for you. Let *me* do your thinking for you. Are you folks comfortable with that?
Valid comment, I think. So far not addressed.

It stands to reason that only fucked up, perverted, evil and badwrong people will seek work in this industry of vice and horror. People like that don't wash dishes for a living. People like that eat children and take drugs.
The satyrical sentiment brings tears of concord to mine eyes.

Babboonery, ITT.

Yep!  :lulz:

LMNO, thank you for the advice. I don't see what not referencing this thread would achieve? Apart from that, if you still think this is no longer relevant enough to the OP (I think it kind of is, but not vitally), I'd be happy to move. Can I do that myself, and if yes, how?

Literate Chaotic / Victor Pelevin
« on: September 19, 2012, 12:39:26 pm »
I googled the PD domain for his name and got no hits. Does google get to search the entire forum? Anyway, I am assuming this guy has not been discussed before. I think he is one of the most eminently Discordian authors alive today, though he may not know about it. Of his several novels available in English, I have read Buddha's Little Finger, which definitely made me yearn for more, then Babylon (a.k.a. Generation P), which was an amazing, thought-provoking and very funny rollercoaster, and The Sacred Book of the Werewolf, which was even better. I am in the process of reading Numbers, so far so good, and I am told Empire V is also excellent.

Below is an extract from Babylon. For a bit of context, Babylen Tatarski, initially a penniless poet working a newsstand, is sucked up by a sinister advertising industry. During that process he visits an antiques-store and feels compelled to purchase an ouija board. He proceeds to use it, and the board spells out a treatise by the late Che Gevara. This is about the first third of it:


These thoughts were originally intended for the journal of the Cuban armed forces, Oliva Verde. But it would be foolish to insist on matters of such petty detail now that we know for certain that the entire plane of existence, in which journals are published and armed forces engage in action, is simply a sequence of moments of awareness, united solely by the fact that in each new moment the concept of the preceding moments is present. Although from time without beginning this sequence remains unbroken, awareness is never actually aware of itself. Therefore the condition of man in this life is lamentable.

That great champion of the liberation of humanity, Siddhartha Gautama, has indicated in many of his works that the principle reason for the lamentable condition of man in this life is first and foremost the very conception of man's existence, life and lamentable condition - that is to say, the dualism that imposes the division into subject and object of something that in actual fact has never existed and never will.

Siddhartha Gautama was able to convey this simple truth to many people because in his time their feelings were simple and strong, and their internal world was clear and unclouded. Hearing a single word could completely change a man's entire life and transport him instantly to the other shore, to a freedom unconstrained in any way. But since that time many centuries have passed. The words of the Buddha are now accessible to all, yet salvation comes to but few. There can be no doubt that this is the result of the cultural situation that the ancient texts of all religions called the 'dark age' to come.

Comrades in the struggle! This dark age has already begun. And its onset has been brought about primarily by the role that the so-called visual-psychic generators or type-two objects have come to play in the life of man.

In speaking of the fact that dualism is engendered by the arbitrary division of the world into subject and object, the Buddha was concerned with subject-object division of the first type. The major distinguishing feature of the dark age lies in the decisive influence exerted on the life of man by subject-object division of the second type, which in the time of the Buddha simply did not exist.

In order to explain what is meant by objects of the first and second types, let us take a simple example, a television set. This is simply a box with a glass wall, which we are free to watch or not watch. When an individual's gaze falls upon a dark screen, the movement of his or her eyes is controlled exclusively by internal nerve impulses or the psychological process taking place in his or her consciousness. For instance, an individual might notice that the screen is fly-spotted. Or he or she might decide that it would be a good idea to buy a television twice as big. Or think that it would be a good idea to stand it in a different comer. Until a television is switched on it is in no way different from the objects with which people had to deal in the Buddha's time, be it a stone, the dew on a blade of grass or an arrow with a divided head -- in short, everything that the Buddha used to illustrate his talks.

But when a television is turned on, it is transformed from an object of the first type into an object of the second type. It becomes a phenomenon of an entirely different order. And although the person looking at the screen does not notice this customary transformation, it is truly immense. For the viewer the television disappears as a material object that possesses weight, size and other physical properties. Instead of this the viewer has the sensation of being present in a different space, a sensation familiar to all who are assembled there.

Comrades in the struggle! The question is - who is actually present? Can we say that it is the viewer himself?

Let us repeat the question, since it is extremely important: is it possible to say that the television is being watched by the individual who is watching it?

We assert that it is not, for the following reason. When the individual viewed the television while it was switched off, the movement of his or her eyes and the flow of his or her attention were controlled by his own voluntary impulses, chaotic though they may have been. The dark screen with no image of any kind did not exert any influence over them, or if it did, it was only as a background.

When it is switched on, a television almost never transmits a static view from a single motionless camera, and therefore the image on it is not a background. Quite the contrary, this image changes at an extremely rapid rate. Every few seconds there is either a change of camera angle or a fade into close-up on some object, or a switch to a different camera - the image is constantly being modified by the cameraman and the producer who stands behind him. This changing of the image is known as technomodification. We ask you to pay particularly close attention at this point, since our next thesis is rather difficult to grasp, although in essence it is extremely simple. In addition, the feeling might arise that we are dealing with something that is insignificant. But we make bold to assert that we are in fact dealing with the most real psychological phenomenon of the end of the second millennium.

The changes in the image produced by various technomodifications can be correlated with a virtual psychological process in which the observer is forced to switch his attention from one event to another and select the most interesting content from what is taking place - that is, to manage his own attention as the makers of the programme manage it. This psychological process creates its own virtual subject, which for the duration of the television programme exists in place of the individual, fitting into his or her consciousness like a hand into a rubber glove.

This is similar to the condition of possession by a spirit. The difference lies in the fact that in this case the spirit does not exist; all that does exist are the symptoms of possession. This is a virtual spirit, but from the moment the viewer entrusts the programme-makers with redi- reeling his or her attention at will from object to object, he or she effectively becomes this spirit, and the spirit, which does not actually exist, possesses this viewer and millions of others. What is taking place could appropriately be called the experience of collective non-existence, since the virtual subject that replaces the viewer's actual consciousness is absolutely non-existent - it is merely an effect created by the collective efforts of editors, cameramen and producers. However, for the individual watching the television there is nothing more real than this virtual subject.

Furthermore, Lapsang Suchong of the Pu Er monastery believes that if a certain programme, for instance a football game, were to be watched simultaneously by more than four-fifths of the population of Earth, this virtual effect would become capable of displacing from the aggregate human consciousness the collective karmic vision of the human plane of existence, the consequences of which could be unpredictable (it is entirely possible that to the hell of molten metal, the hell of knife trees etc. there would be added a new hell, the hell of an eternal football championship). However, his calculations have yet to be verified, and in any case this is a matter for the future. Here we are interested not so much in the frightening prospects for tomorrow as in the no less frightening reality of today. Let us draw our first conclusion. Corresponding to the object of the second type, that is, to a television that is switched on, we have a subject of the second type - that is, a virtual viewer, who manages his or her attention in exactly the same way as a programme production crew does. Feelings and thoughts, as well as the secretion of adrenalin and other hormones in the viewer's organism, are dictated by an external operator and determined by the calculations of another individual. And of course, the subject of the first type does not notice the moment when he is displaced by the subject of the second type, since following this displacement there is no longer anyone to notice it, as the subject of the second type is unreal. But it is not merely unreal (this word is in effect applicable to everything in the human world). There are no words to describe the degree of its unreality. It is a heaping of one unreality upon another, a castle constructed of air, the foundations of which stand upon a profound abyss. The question might arise: why are we wallowing in these non-existences, attempting to gauge the degree of their unreality? However, this difference between subjects of the first and second types is of extreme importance. Subject number one believes that reality is the material world. But subject number two believes that reality is the material world as it is shown on the television.

As a product of false subject-object division, subject number one is illusory. But at least there is an observer of the chaotic movement of his or her thoughts and moods - in metaphorical terms we can say that subject number one is constantly watching a television programme about himself or herself, gradually forgetting that he or she is an observer and identifying with the programme.

From this point of view subject number two is something absolutely improbable and indescribable. It is a television programme watching another television programme. Emotions and thoughts participate in this process, but the individual in whose consciousness they arise is entirely absent. The rapid switching of a television from one channel to another, which is used to avoid watching the advertisements, is known as zapping. Bourgeois thought has investigated in considerable detail the psychological condition of the individual who engages in zapping, and the corresponding thought patterns, which are rapidly becoming the basic forms of the modem world. But the type of zapping that is considered by the researchers of this phenomenon corresponds only to switching between channels by the viewer. The switching to and fro of the viewer that is controlled by the producer and cameraman (that is, the forcible induction of subject number two by means of technomodifications) is a different type of zapping, a coercive form, study of which is effectively prohibited in every country of the world except Bhutan, where television is forbidden. But coercive zapping, whereby the television is converted into a remote control for the viewer, is not simply one method among others of organising an image sequence; it is the very foundation of television broadcasting, the major means by which the advertising-informational field exerts its influence on consciousness. From this point on, therefore, we shall refer to the type-two subject as Homo Zapiens, or HZ.

Apple Talk / Apology following an Unpleasant Epiphany
« on: September 19, 2012, 09:52:25 am »
Dear PD members who currently think I am a shitbag,

First of all, I have given you plenty of reason to think so. I acted like a dickhead and failed to notice this even after several people pointed it out to me, some in great detail (thanks due to Roger, Phox, Nigel, mostly).

Although the PD board appears to be intentionally designed or naturally evolved to bring out the worst in new-comers, that does not in any way diminish my responsibility for the fact that it succeeded in doing that to me quite spectacularly: after all, I freely chose to come here. And, having reread all of my posts and the context for a fair few of them, me at my worst is pretentious, dismissive, inattentive, nitpicking, posturing, insincere and ridiculously vain. So I need to work on those. And I need to thank you all for helping me have this realisation. I am sorry it took so long. (I think I almost got it at the beginning, actually, but the trap just opened wider... and I fell for it, developing and nurturing a major case of what you call butthurt while remaining in staunch denial about it.)

But the fact is, hard to realise and admit as it was for me, this is still the board of my dreams. I do wish to become an accepted, respected member of it. I realise (now) that this takes time and posts (a few months and a few dozen posts at the very least, I imagine) even if all goes well, which, in my case, has not. The essential mistake I made (and yes, Phox pointed this out to me several times back in December, and yes, I completely failed to grasp it) was misjudging the situation. This may be explained (not excused, just explained!) by the fact that apart from one I started myself, this is the only board I have come across in which there is truly a community at work. And given the idiosyncratic (Discordian?) style of the board, I mistook it for one of the other kind (in which I include both venting venues and mutual admiration circles - their common feature is the lack of real engagement with and interest in the others). As a result, I failed to realise that the people that were being rude to me have earned the right to be rude on this board, while I had earned nothing.

So: I apologise for being dim-witted, easily offended and unheeding of my actual situation here. I experienced a profound sense of shame yesterday evening, which was still in evidence this morning. It is now passing. It was highly unpleasant, but I deserved it. And needed it.

All of which, by the way, does not change the fact that I do think that my views on homeopathy, the evolution of individuality, sense-of-self and consciousness, and music are reasonable and worthy of consideration, though I need to articulate them better. I hope I will manage to find a way of discussing them with you in a reasonable manner, but if that is not possible, I would just as well give those topics a miss.

May I start over?

Apple Talk / Post clean up bump
« on: September 18, 2012, 06:41:17 pm »
Post clean up bump.

Well done, comrade. You are beneath contempt. Last thing you need to do, clean up this topic. Won't be troubling you for a good long while.

I'm sure you are aware of it, but may it at least bring back some fond memories.

Apple Talk / UNLIMITED holist appreciation thread
« on: September 18, 2012, 09:42:14 am »
"Still/solo" images aside (that's a whole other argument), if at it's best it's still turning an actual human into a commidty, it's wrong.

I'm talking about your low-end shit, here.  Filmed in shitty motels who only say "don't clog up the drains".

I wonder... is THAT backpedalling? Just checkin'

Also, humans are commodified in professional sports, in the hospitality industry, hell, they are commodified in most educational systems. If there is something specifically wrong about films of people having sex being sold, it is not likely to be the commodification of humans.

Apple Talk / off on the wrong foot
« on: January 15, 2012, 10:47:13 pm »
you know, it's weird

i am now, in just a few days of intermittent furious activity, in the majority of voiced opinion here, let's see

a racist
a sexist
a poor communicator
poorly educated in a crap school,
a dodger of criticism
intellectually challenged
a lame attempt at a bully

and it has been a trying few days, because i thought hard about those accusations, although at times i tried the strategy of being flippant about it, which didn't really work, either, but at least it helped me disengage

and see that i am none of those things, i know that, i've known myself for 43 fucking years, and increasingly, so i don't need a bunch of complete strangers to help me see myself as i really am

(in your terminology, of course, sticking my head back in the sand, well, you are welcome to that opinion)

so i am going to persevere, but i will be very busy for the next two weeks, so perhaps i'll just read whatever floats to the top and occasionally offer comment that is unlikely to offend

and i will be relentlessly chased down for a while by people still wishing me to eat more humble pie, but eventually they will give up if i just ignore them

and then we will see what happens

one thing is for sure, and this came to me when someone used that metaphor of "moving the goalposts" for the umpteenth time - i am not here to win

or lose

Apple Talk / evolutionary baby-watching
« on: January 12, 2012, 08:08:04 pm »
this morning i spent about four hours with my 18-month-old daughter Liza while her mum went off to do something on her own (for once, for crying out loud!)

for the time being, these still quite rare occasions, which started very tentatively when she was about 8 months old, have been periods which require me to devote my full attention to her practically all the time

but recently she has been leaving base for increasing periods up to even half an hour when the siblings are around, and this morning, too, for a while she was quite content to find solitary activities for herself with me hovering discreetly in the background

but then, say 90 minutes in, she realised that mum was not around and was not to be had either at a moments notice, had a little cry and asked me to pick her up

i did this and went about my business with baby on hip, asking about once every ten minutes whether she would like to be put down, which she always turned down with great clarity and determination

then she told me she was hungry and wanted some potato, so i told her okay, but i would have to put her down in order to get some potatos out, get a saucepan, etc. etc., in great detail

she said yes, okay

so i put her on the floor and got to it quick, and she watched me with great interest and did not start complaining

but when i finished and sat down at the computer (probably aiming to look at your bloody junk or add to it), she immediately came up to me and asked to be picked up

so i started experimenting and found after about 8-10 trials that Liza is much more likely to let go of me for a few minutes if this is in order to allow me to do "work" - but work for her involves manipulating and moving objects continually

when i tried to work on the computer, even standing up, she immediately cut in and demanded to be picked up

the same if i just sat still or stood still, and the same, though only after a considerate pause of about thirty seconds, if i was on the phone

strange, ha?

could something like a propensity for acting as if she thought "it pays off to let primary caretaker get on with stuff every now and then even if i feel pretty scared and lonely" be hardwired, primate stuff?

Apple Talk / i was packing books yesterday
« on: January 11, 2012, 03:33:33 pm »
and this came up

the title is "Advanced Aromatherapy"

and it went in the discard pile

but the author?

Apple Talk / prodigal son
« on: January 07, 2012, 08:33:36 am »
i am, as i said, in the middle of moving a rather large family to bristol

this involves a fair bit of moving objects around, as you may imagine

so i am not going to be wasting my precious time here as often as i would under other circumstances

but i just wanted to say: being on this forum, reading any of the threads i've opened so far, feels like home

sorry about being squishy-sentimental - but the convivial tone that seems to rule this place, while surely a thing that goes without saying and also a bare necessity for you, is a complete novelty and a tonic to my faith in mankind

thanks, folks

and sorry about the adolescent rebel typography

i haven't figured out, really, why i derive so much enjoyment from it, but i do

given shlain's ideas about the effects of linear, sound-based writing on the operation of the human mind, the answer could be a little distance away from trivial


Apple Talk / networked tribal enterprise
« on: January 06, 2012, 08:44:01 pm »
a kind person by the name of LMNO suggested i do this

and mother-of-three Nigel seconded the advice, so i took it


i am a hungarian who got asylum in the UK at 17 (back in 1986), spent nine years there, working, drugging, rock-and-rolling, getting a couple of degrees in philosophy

then a love-affair in hungary made me move back, moved to the countryside, renovated adobe house, had three kids, all boys, and inertia moved me inexorably towards becoming a professional translator

work which can be done from home, on an independent timetable and which paid very well when i started it, going on 17 years ago

but it was work i call frontal lobe prostitution and the deep dissatisfaction with having to row a galley for a living did result in strain

after 13 years my wife decided she'd had enough

it was rough on me

but then i found the love of my life (with two kids in tow), and we have been very happily married for almost two years now, and we have a baby girl who is... well, not to beat about the bush too much, the future saviour of mankind and a well-critical mass of cute

only now we need to leave hungary, because it is sliding fast towards being a place we definitely don't want to live in

and we seem to have sort of half joined, half started a bit of an exodus

now three or four or possibly five large families are all moving together to bristol, a city we chose in a fairly complicated manner

we are taking all six kids, we spent 6 weeks in november and december in the UK, sorting things out and giving it a go, all eight of us

in the meantime, when i was doing some severe soul-torchlighting around the time of the divorce, i came to the conclusion that my three flaws are being lazy, cowardly and boorish

i immediately concluded that i don't in the least mind boorish and can live with lazy, but cowardly i don't like being, so i spent the three years since practicing brave, working up to making this move, which has been deeply liberating for me

but now my gut is telling me it's time to give up being lazy as well, and to stop punishing myself,  and to find a way of making a living out of something i actually enjoy doing

the other two dads in our little team are accomplished musicians, with not so hot english

i am a passable musician, though not a great player of any instrument, know the country, speak the language

our plan is "the school of expression" - a business offering arts classes (initially music, later also movement, dance, the fine arts) aimed to show people of various ages, talents and skills the opportunity to  experience creativity, improvisation, the joy of playing with others)

i bet it sounds outrageously hippie and infeasible, but we would like to give it a go, and the uk seems a good market still for this sort of thing

what do you think?

Apple Talk / hello
« on: January 05, 2012, 08:10:05 pm »
i dare say i am dumb and failed to find it but i have not found the place where people wandering in here have an opportunity to say hello

so hello

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