Discorse 20: We and I

[Trollax]

Discourse 20: We and I
OR
We and I

We and I, the Rastafarian equivalent of "mu" or "Fnord," used in reference to others, to the self and another, to the self and god, to signify relationships in every guise. But there is no "you," no other, where is it? Where has the other gone? Was it ever there? A sage masquerading as a crazy man once said to me: "Guess what can't sounds like to a black man? Snuerrrengrrnk! It's like speaking backwards, we don't have a word for it." The Buddha upon attaining his enlightenment was reported to have said, "Wonder of wonders, I and all living beings simultaneously attain the way, but because of upside-down views we fail to realise it." Where is the other? In you... that's why we say "We and I."
I posted a little side note to EVT's discussion of her five-seeded apple, wherein I intimated that creation has no opposite, so if creation (or the creator even) be "we and I" where is destruction? Is the other an illusion? No. The other is like the illusion and separation of the cavern problem, the illusion is that there is a separation, and the separation is within us... once again, "WE and I" The other is in we. What is we? We is a group pronoun referring to the self and any number of others, the other is contained within the other, yet there is still an "I" as there is also "I and I" often in reference to god as it exists alone. What is this thing that is both a group and an individual? Sheep and wolf? Does the sheep wear a wolf suit, or does the wolf wear a sheep suit? To ask that question is to assume that one can only be either a sheep or a wolf. To answer that question is to assume that every misfit, every nonconformist suffers from a mental disorder.
To help you out in your answer I will ask that you say a turning word instead. A turning word is a reinvention of the self; and it is not necessarily a word, just like "We and I" is neither sheep nor wolf.

One of my favourite responses to every dichotomy (A dichotomy is a situation in which there are only absolute choices and no middle roads, i.e. Yes or no.) is of course the cavern problem. Another fitting example is a Koan from the Mumonkan:
Ummon said, "The world is vast and wide, why do you put on your seven-piece robe at the sound of the bell?"
So the world is vast and wide; why is that separate from the bell?

As is often remarked about Christians by many people, they appear to be afraid of anything that challenges their beliefs, and as is often the case they'll fear anything that tempts them. Yet if you can find a Christian that is secure in their beliefs they are often very broad-minded and accommodating of other belief systems. They are the ones who put on their seven-piece robe at the sound of the bell. Their faith becomes their life, not their lifejacket. Just like you get Zen students who cling to the ritual, or Discordians who cling to Eris, atheists who cling to anything at all and so on. Ummon's question is a test, like Roger's heresies: Here is Ummon (or even Roger) a great master of the sutras (or just the spoken word), asking a neophyte,
"The world is out there, why are you wasting time performing ridiculous ceremonies?"
I said to Hugh, "Does every master with a stick wait for the student who will wrench it from his hand?" and it's the same thing. Unless you can profane your belief system and think the sacrilegious then you cling. The answer to Ummon's question is, "We and I" the other is in me and I am the other, there is no other for I am the all, that is why all things attained enlightenment when Buddha did.
Do you believe that?
If not then Buddha is George W Bush?ñ
(No cheating Zenji   )

~Ancestor Trollax~

P.S. Roger... I challenge you to a dharma duel, may we both kill each other...

[eumaas]

I and I... in creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Trollax]

I and I... in creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Well being as how free will is a joke that doesn't suprise...

Does Eris honor or forgive?

I asked a goddess once, "Why is it that you treat me differently to everyone else?"
Her reply was "I give people what they want."

We and I

[B23.77]

Soliloquism: the belief that the self is the only existence.  I've often wondered whether "I" am the sole existence and all the others exist only when I percieve them.  The bible and the koran are all figments of "my" sole imagination.  If that is the case, then I'm like the messiah.  The one.  But I snuerrengrrnk know with any certainty whether or not there is really any others or not.  Maybe.  Unless reality proves to be otherwise, uncertainty is the eternal fnord.  Sometimes I hear dopplegangs around my head (if I have a head) that make the universe seem like it revolves around mua.  Who knows?  Maybe the schizophreniaticians know.