The Barstool Experiment

[Cain]

Its days like this that make me think the best 'barstool' in the world is to never, ever use metaphor to explain an idea again.

[LMNO]

Well, I can understand Pol's intentions.  When I hear something that tries to make a point, I know that one of the first things I try to do is parse it out, looking for what's "wrong" with it.

What I'm trying to do is to first understand completely what the author is saying, and then see if I agree with it, and finally pick it apart into tiny pieces.

I still haven't quite gotten there, though.  So I get it when people either miss the metaphor, or what the metaphor means.



LMNO
-starting the day as a nice guy.  We'll see where it goes.

[Cain]

I didn't actually read anything Pol wrote, I just have a hangover kicking in and feel nasty.

[LMNO]

Oh, I can tell this is gonna be one of the fun* days, here at PD.com.





















*Please note:  "Fun" = "Terrifying".

[Cain]

I'll be fine, once I get some codeine.

Surely not all the student doctors with access to the pharmacy are on holiday.  Right?

[Politician168023]

Pol, the Barstool Experiment is (for me) meant to be a parable/metaphor, and not to be taken in an explicitly literal sense.

So, I take your point (with the exception that "sight" is the only sense being used.  Clearly, the argument used by the scientist is that of mass and cohesion, while the philosopher is the one questioning the hallucination of the world), but I suggest you take the "punchline" [/RWHN] as the feeling one gets when castles in the sky tumble.

To quote some asshat, "keep your head in the clouds and your feet on the ground."  Sometimes, it takes a barstool to help you find where your feet are.

I understand the point of the parable/metaphor, damn I have to use the things all the time just to be understood =)

I don't personally take it literally either... just noticed a lot of pedanticism going on here and I wanted to join in the fun! lolz

[AFK]

It's a device to tell a funny story and get a point across.  Things aren't always what they seem.  Don't miss the forest for the trees.  What happens when one assumes and relies on "conventional wisdom".  So on and so forth.  Sure you probably could incorporate aspects of other sensory receptors.  But to me, a parable is only as effective as it is simple and straightfoward.  When you get too crazy and wacky and go in all sorts of different directions you'll never get the point across.  Or at least, you won't get it across to anyone with a lack of patience. 

[Politician168023]

What happens when one assumes and relies on "conventional wisdom".

The metaphor relies on conventional wisdom   (I dont mean you are wrong What's-his-name, just that the message of the parable *is* conventional wisdom).

When you get too crazy and wacky and go in all sorts of different directions you'll never get the point across.  Or at least, you won't get it across to anyone with a lack of patience. 

Hopefully the "enlightened" people in the parable will have patience and not need a barstool.
Maybe the 'enlightened' people will see the barstool joke as hillarious (if painful) =)
Maybe the 'enlightened' people will miss the point because they see the joke as too crude to be the truth.
Hopefully all three (Hail Eris) =)

I appreciate what all of you have been saying, and agree, and understand... And yet I somehow feel that I have to tie all the viewpoints together.. many posts seem to say the same thing in a different way.. Many miss the point of the writer because they pick one piece up and analyse it, missing the general point.

Thanks for your replies LMNO, they tried not to do that.

[Jasper]

If you're looking for something that ties all the viewpoints together, it'd be our much-loved phrase "Think for yourself, schmuck".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If you're looking for something that ties all the viewpoints together, it'd be our much-loved phrase "Think for yourself, schmuck".

And I think that may be a point which seems in contention with the Barstool Metaphor... So Idjit One is Thinking for Himself, about how nothing is real... then Idjit Two decides that Idjit One needs to think like Idjit Two and whacks him with a barstool. It seems that the moral is "Think for yourself... but if it disagrees with our view we'll smack you with a barstool."

I think it tries to make the same point as a Zen Master with his stick... except the random person at the bar isn't a student that voluntarily put themselves under the training of a master... nor is the barstool wielder necessarily a Master, he just doesn't like the other guys argument. I think, like some of the other metaphors here, it almost but not quite gets where it needs to be. Sadly, I have no idea how to recommend an improvement...

[Jasper]

Bah.  Mere words.  You're confusing the whole issue.

[Cain]

That wasn't the point at all.

Get LMNO to explain it, I'm too drugged up to be able to bother with this.

[AFK]

I'm not sure "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" alone does it.  Because as Rat points out, many would probably assume they are thinking for themselves.  Indeed, I think one can think for themselves, but be severely limited in what they think about.  

The way I approach the Barstool is it's about expanding your horizons and the borders of your thought process.  But, at the same time, don't get lost in that thought process and get carried away.  

It's not that we want their thoughts to have the same content.
It's not that we necessarily want their thought process to be identical.
It's that we want them to have access to the same thought toolbox.  

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm not sure "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" alone does it.  Because as Rat points out, many would probably assume they are thinking for themselves.  Indeed, I think one can think for themselves, but be severely limited in what they think about.  

The way I approach the Barstool is it's about expanding your horizons and the borders of your thought process.  But, at the same time, don't get lost in that thought process and get carried away.  

It's not that we want their thoughts to have the same content.
It's not that we necessarily want their thought process to be identical.
It's that we want them to have access to the same thought toolbox.  

I understand the intent... it seems quite similar to "Be open minded, but don't let your brain fall out" which Pagan groups love to spout.

I dunno, I get the intent, but I find the metaphor still feels broken to me... 

[LMNO]

As far as I see it, the BE depicts the occasionally useful, and often overlooked, values of common sense and pragmatism.

Thisnk about it:  These two guys were arguing about the possibility of whether the physical world exists, while they were existing in that world.

Now, while it's often amusing, and perhaps even enlightening some of the time, you have to remember that if you actually start believing that the world you're creating in your head, it's gonna get awfully difficult when you try to interact with what's going on outside your head.

In a way, it's another version of eating the menu; just because you can argue (and even convince yourself) that the barstool doesn't exist, it's still coming straight at your head.


Duck!